Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>> out by September, and we�re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>
>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>
>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>
>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>
>>
>>You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>BEFORE he left office, right?
>
> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
> he does NOT.
>
> And, quite possibly, never will.
>
> Being a bot sucks!

Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 2021-08-30 10:41 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
> news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>>> out by September, and we’re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>>
>>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>> BEFORE he left office, right?
>>
>> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
>> he does NOT.
>>
>> And, quite possibly, never will.
>>
>> Being a bot sucks!
>
> Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
> people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
> with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.
>

Biden drew down US forces to 2,500...

....before he was even president?

Neat trick. :-)

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:40:24 -0400, Alan Baker
<notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:

>On 2021-08-30 10:41 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>> news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>>>> out by September, and we’re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>>>
>>>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>>> BEFORE he left office, right?
>>>
>>> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
>>> he does NOT.
>>>
>>> And, quite possibly, never will.
>>>
>>> Being a bot sucks!
>>
>> Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
>> people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
>> with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.
>>
>
>Biden drew down US forces to 2,500...
>
>...before he was even president?
>
>Neat trick. :-)

And, lest we miss this, the Donald who did /that/ drawdown evacuated,
along with the troops removed, exactly /none/ of the Afghanis who had
been working with them.

Well, after all, they weren't Norwegian and Afghanistan is one of
those "sh*thole" countries (per Trump).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2021-09-01 11:33 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:40:24 -0400, Alan Baker
> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-08-30 10:41 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>> news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
>>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>>>>> out by September, and we’re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>>>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>>>> BEFORE he left office, right?
>>>>
>>>> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
>>>> he does NOT.
>>>>
>>>> And, quite possibly, never will.
>>>>
>>>> Being a bot sucks!
>>>
>>> Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
>>> people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
>>> with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.
>>>
>>
>> Biden drew down US forces to 2,500...
>>
>> ...before he was even president?
>>
>> Neat trick. :-)
>
> And, lest we miss this, the Donald who did /that/ drawdown evacuated,
> along with the troops removed, exactly /none/ of the Afghanis who had
> been working with them.

More than that.

His administration actively sabotaged applications to the special visa
program that was set up to help get them out.

'There were cabinet mtgs about this during the Trump Admin where Stephen
Miller would peddle his racist hysteria about Iraq & Afghanistan. He &
his enablers across gov’t would undermine anyone who worked on solving
the SIV issue by devastating the system at DHS & State.(1/7)

I tracked this issue personally in my role during my WH tenure. Pence
was fully aware of the problem. We got nowhere on it because Trump/S.
Miller had watchdogs in place at DOJ, DHS, State & security agencies
that made an already cumbersome SIV process even more challenging.(2/7)'

<https://twitter.com/OliviaTroye/status/1428740865665679361?s=20>

>
> Well, after all, they weren't Norwegian and Afghanistan is one of
> those "sh*thole" countries (per Trump).
>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:09:47 -0400, Alan Baker
<notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:

>On 2021-09-01 11:33 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:40:24 -0400, Alan Baker
>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-08-30 10:41 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>> news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
>>>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>>>>>> out by September, and we’re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>>>>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>>>>> BEFORE he left office, right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
>>>>> he does NOT.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, quite possibly, never will.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being a bot sucks!
>>>>
>>>> Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
>>>> people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
>>>> with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Biden drew down US forces to 2,500...
>>>
>>> ...before he was even president?
>>>
>>> Neat trick. :-)
>>
>> And, lest we miss this, the Donald who did /that/ drawdown evacuated,
>> along with the troops removed, exactly /none/ of the Afghanis who had
>> been working with them.

<following the link shows that, unless Olivia and Alan are the same
person, at some point this becomes a quote from a tweet>

>More than that.
>
>His administration actively sabotaged applications to the special visa
>program that was set up to help get them out.
>
>'There were cabinet mtgs about this during the Trump Admin where Stephen
>Miller would peddle his racist hysteria about Iraq & Afghanistan. He &
>his enablers across gov’t would undermine anyone who worked on solving
>the SIV issue by devastating the system at DHS & State.(1/7)
>
>I tracked this issue personally in my role during my WH tenure. Pence
>was fully aware of the problem. We got nowhere on it because Trump/S.
>Miller had watchdogs in place at DOJ, DHS, State & security agencies
>that made an already cumbersome SIV process even more challenging.(2/7)'
>
><https://twitter.com/OliviaTroye/status/1428740865665679361?s=20>

Yes, those Senate committees looking at looking into the situation
should have a /lot/ to work with.

A competent and honest Trump, one who started pulling our friends out
as soon as the deal was struck, would have left Biden less of a mess.
But there is, i suspect, still plenty of blame for Biden not starting
the evacuations earlier. There is no law that states "when withdrawing
from a country, the locals who helped will only be evacuated when
things get right down to the wire".

And the worse the Taliban behaves, the worse it will look.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2021-09-02 8:48 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:09:47 -0400, Alan Baker
> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-09-01 11:33 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:40:24 -0400, Alan Baker
>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-08-30 10:41 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>> news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
>>>>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>>>>>>> out by September, and we’re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>>>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>>>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>>>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>>>>>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>>>>>> BEFORE he left office, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
>>>>>> he does NOT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, quite possibly, never will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being a bot sucks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
>>>>> people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
>>>>> with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Biden drew down US forces to 2,500...
>>>>
>>>> ...before he was even president?
>>>>
>>>> Neat trick. :-)
>>>
>>> And, lest we miss this, the Donald who did /that/ drawdown evacuated,
>>> along with the troops removed, exactly /none/ of the Afghanis who had
>>> been working with them.
>
> <following the link shows that, unless Olivia and Alan are the same
> person, at some point this becomes a quote from a tweet>
>

Yes. That is what the " ' " marks indicated.

:-)

>> More than that.
>>
>> His administration actively sabotaged applications to the special visa
>> program that was set up to help get them out.
>>
>> 'There were cabinet mtgs about this during the Trump Admin where Stephen
>> Miller would peddle his racist hysteria about Iraq & Afghanistan. He &
>> his enablers across gov’t would undermine anyone who worked on solving
>> the SIV issue by devastating the system at DHS & State.(1/7)
>>
>> I tracked this issue personally in my role during my WH tenure. Pence
>> was fully aware of the problem. We got nowhere on it because Trump/S.
>> Miller had watchdogs in place at DOJ, DHS, State & security agencies
>> that made an already cumbersome SIV process even more challenging.(2/7)'
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/OliviaTroye/status/1428740865665679361?s=20>
>
> Yes, those Senate committees looking at looking into the situation
> should have a /lot/ to work with.
>
> A competent and honest Trump, one who started pulling our friends out
> as soon as the deal was struck, would have left Biden less of a mess.
> But there is, i suspect, still plenty of blame for Biden not starting
> the evacuations earlier. There is no law that states "when withdrawing
> from a country, the locals who helped will only be evacuated when
> things get right down to the wire".

Unfortunately, and completely unlike Trump, other administrations follow
the laws.

There was a backlog of more than 17,000 visa applications.

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:35:47 -0700, Alan Baker
<notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:

>On 2021-09-02 8:48 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:09:47 -0400, Alan Baker
>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-01 11:33 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:40:24 -0400, Alan Baker
>>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-08-30 10:41 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>> news:i1vpigh5ut33i0dld0u07m5nv7qnncrlu3@4ax.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:01:15 -0400, Alan Baker
>>>>>>> <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2021-08-29 5:36 p.m., Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>>> news:51bnig159jvs754atvn2k10mjbj4nc1nqr@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:48:55 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>>>>>>>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hamish Laws <hamish.laws@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>> news:9cd298f5-1cf8-4818-9e4d-393c2a6fb363n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 3:13:14 AM UTC+10, Jibini
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:kv0thg5dp5vgsjj1d...@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Republican, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might add, who showed us a few years later had /no/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concept of "planning".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You mean like the planning that went into withdrawing US
>>>>>>>>>>>>> troops with no warning to the tens of thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans in the country, who are now, in every sense of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the word, hostages of terrorists?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well apart from the fact that there was an agreement to
>>>>>>>>>>>> withdraw signed in Feb 2020... and here's a a presidential
>>>>>>>>>>>> address from July 8 "THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Earlier today, I was briefed by our senior military and
>>>>>>>>>>>> national security leaders on the status of the drawdown of
>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. forces and allied forces in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I announced our drawdown in April, I said we would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> out by September, and we’re on track to meet that target.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Our military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August
>>>>>>>>>>>> 31st."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trump lowered numbers from 13,000 to 2,500 before Biden was
>>>>>>>>>>>> sworn in...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The issue isn't the withdrawal so much as the "in the middle
>>>>>>>>>>> of the night without warning to people put at risk by it"
>>>>>>>>>>> part, leavning an estimated 10,000-20,000 American citizens
>>>>>>>>>>> as literal hostages to terrorists. On purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You do realize that you are stating that /Trump/ did this,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You do realize Trump wasn't President in late July when that
>>>>>>>>> withdrawal took place, right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You realize Trump had already drawn down US forces to 2,500
>>>>>>>> BEFORE he left office, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since he clearly missed it when I pointed this out, I would say
>>>>>>> he does NOT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, quite possibly, never will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being a bot sucks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trump didn't do so in the middle of the night with no warning to
>>>>>> people who will almost certain be tortured to death for cooperating
>>>>>> with us. Biden('s puppeteers) did exactly that. On purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Biden drew down US forces to 2,500...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...before he was even president?
>>>>>
>>>>> Neat trick. :-)
>>>>
>>>> And, lest we miss this, the Donald who did /that/ drawdown evacuated,
>>>> along with the troops removed, exactly /none/ of the Afghanis who had
>>>> been working with them.
>>
>> <following the link shows that, unless Olivia and Alan are the same
>> person, at some point this becomes a quote from a tweet>
>>
>
>Yes. That is what the " ' " marks indicated.
>
>:-)

Ah. I knew there was a reason I prefer the double-quote! It's easier
to see.

But I do apologize for missing your single quote.

>>> More than that.
>>>
>>> His administration actively sabotaged applications to the special visa
>>> program that was set up to help get them out.
>>>
>>> 'There were cabinet mtgs about this during the Trump Admin where Stephen
>>> Miller would peddle his racist hysteria about Iraq & Afghanistan. He &
>>> his enablers across gov’t would undermine anyone who worked on solving
>>> the SIV issue by devastating the system at DHS & State.(1/7)

But there is no "'" at the start here. I thought a continuation-quote
was the norm.

>>> I tracked this issue personally in my role during my WH tenure. Pence
>>> was fully aware of the problem. We got nowhere on it because Trump/S.
>>> Miller had watchdogs in place at DOJ, DHS, State & security agencies
>>> that made an already cumbersome SIV process even more challenging.(2/7)'
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/OliviaTroye/status/1428740865665679361?s=20>
>>
>> Yes, those Senate committees looking at looking into the situation
>> should have a /lot/ to work with.
>>
>> A competent and honest Trump, one who started pulling our friends out
>> as soon as the deal was struck, would have left Biden less of a mess.
>> But there is, i suspect, still plenty of blame for Biden not starting
>> the evacuations earlier. There is no law that states "when withdrawing
>> from a country, the locals who helped will only be evacuated when
>> things get right down to the wire".
>
>Unfortunately, and completely unlike Trump, other administrations follow
>the laws.
>
>There was a backlog of more than 17,000 visa applications.

Some news reports appear to claiming up to 500,000 strandees (so to
speak). Not to mention various small animals that a shelter wanted to
rescue. Some of which are being used by Republicans in their ongoing
campaign to smear the US Armed Forces.

No doubt more ... stable ... figures will eventually come out. At
least, firm figures from our own records.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 9:23:34 AM UTC-6, Jonathan wrote:
> On 8/17/2021 2:51 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> > The Omega version of the Covid has not been released yet.

> I heard Fauci and the Reptilian Elite are close to
> producing a far more contagious strain to release
> upon the world, called the Omegaredstates Strain.

I was thinking of this thread when I read a news item
about the mu variant, detected in Colombia, which,
unlike the delta variant, appears not to be hindered much
by existing vaccines.

Now, I read that the mu variant has been detected in 47
states, as well as the District of Columbia. I suppose that
is hardly surprising, as border controls can't seem to
even keep cocaine from Colombia out. (Nebraska,
South Dakota, and Vermont are the states in which it has
not yet been detected.)

If it is that widespread in the United States already,
I have no doubt that it has also reached Canada by now,
but I haven't seen any news about that yet.

John Savard

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 12:48:16 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> If it is that widespread in the United States already,
> I have no doubt that it has also reached Canada by now,
> but I haven't seen any news about that yet.

I have been able to confirm that the mu variant has
been detected in Canada, but not to find a breakdown
by province of cases.

John Savard

On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:52:31 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 12:48:16 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> If it is that widespread in the United States already,
>> I have no doubt that it has also reached Canada by now,
>> but I haven't seen any news about that yet.
>
>I have been able to confirm that the mu variant has
>been detected in Canada, but not to find a breakdown
>by province of cases.

The real questions to answer here may be:

-- how infectious is it?
-- how lethal is it?

I find myself agreeing with the view that the only long-term solution
is for this puppy to become "just another flu virus", and about as
lethal.

Meanwhile, a recent news article tells us that, here, unvaccinated
people are /49 times as likely/ to be hospitalized, and /25 times as
likely to die/, from (mostly, if not entirely) delta than vaccinated
people are. But only 7 times more likely to test positive for it.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:21:29 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> I find myself agreeing with the view that the only long-term solution
> is for this puppy to become "just another flu virus", and about as
> lethal.

That is the solution that evolution will eventually provide. How long that will
take, and how many people will die in the meantime, however, is the question.
Had humanity taken appropriate actions, the numbers could have been kept
smaller, and continuing to take actions to restrict its spread will reduce the
impact of the disease, and hasten the end of the pandemic.

John Savard

On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 23:12:53 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:21:29 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
> > I find myself agreeing with the view that the only long-term solution
> > is for this puppy to become "just another flu virus", and about as
> > lethal.
> That is the solution that evolution will eventually provide. How long that will
> take, and how many people will die in the meantime, however, is the question.
> Had humanity taken appropriate actions, the numbers could have been kept
> smaller, and continuing to take actions to restrict its spread will reduce the
> impact of the disease, and hasten the end of the pandemic.

It remains unclear that the pandemic will "end"
in the sense of the disease ceasing to exist worldwide.
Roughly speaking, when a disease is here to stay, it is
"endemic", not "pandemic". I think that technically,
doing nothing about it would have got the surviving
population to "endemic" faster, but that isn't what
we want. With obvious exceptions.

On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:21:29 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> I find myself agreeing with the view that the only long-term solution
>> is for this puppy to become "just another flu virus", and about as
>> lethal.
>
>That is the solution that evolution will eventually provide. How long that will
>take, and how many people will die in the meantime, however, is the question.
>Had humanity taken appropriate actions, the numbers could have been kept
>smaller, and continuing to take actions to restrict its spread will reduce the
>impact of the disease, and hasten the end of the pandemic.

Only by tighter controls and more economic problems.

I agreed (and still agree) with masks/distancing/vaccines, but only as
a way to /flatten the curve/ and avoid Italian triage.

Eventually, we will see statistics on, say, suicides and the
restrictions. And other economic effects will, no doubt, be studied as
well.

I should note the we are already seeing the occasional report of
people dying because the bed they need is not available close enough
to them to do any good. They aren't necessarily dying of COVID-19,
either -- no beds means no beds and other conditions that can kill in
that situation exist.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:09:27 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:21:29 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> I find myself agreeing with the view that the only long-term solution
>>> is for this puppy to become "just another flu virus", and about as
>>> lethal.
>>
>>That is the solution that evolution will eventually provide. How long that will
>>take, and how many people will die in the meantime, however, is the question.
>>Had humanity taken appropriate actions, the numbers could have been kept
>>smaller, and continuing to take actions to restrict its spread will reduce the
>>impact of the disease, and hasten the end of the pandemic.
>
>Only by tighter controls and more economic problems.
>
>I agreed (and still agree) with masks/distancing/vaccines, but only as
>a way to /flatten the curve/ and avoid Italian triage.
>
>Eventually, we will see statistics on, say, suicides and the
>restrictions. And other economic effects will, no doubt, be studied as
>well.
>
>I should note the we are already seeing the occasional report of
>people dying because the bed they need is not available close enough
>to them to do any good. They aren't necessarily dying of COVID-19,
>either -- no beds means no beds and other conditions that can kill in
>that situation exist.

Speaking of Italian triage, Idaho has instituted Crisis Standards of
Care, which sounds very similar.

And our State is so stressed that accepting patients from Idaho can
not be guaranteed. Which will require some very hard decisions from
hospitals near Idaho, who work closely with them in normal times.

The various sports teams are requiring proof of vaccination or a
recent not-at-home-or-self-administered test showing the person is
virus-free for admission to the stadium. Or will be when their seasons
or post-seasons open.

And our county is contemplating /requiring/ proof of vaccination for
those wishing to patronize "non-essential businesses". No word yet on
which businesses those might be. Or how this is to be enforced.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Saturday, August 28, 2021 at 2:43:05 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> The thing is, though, we can't depend on either Russia or China to be
> peaceful. Russia has invaded two democracies, Georgia and the
> Ukraine, and is propping up the dictatorship in Belarus that forced down
> an Irish airplane. China is continuing to harass and threaten Taiwan.
>
> As these countries are creating conditions that may eventually lead
> to the ultimate disaster of a war with the United States, something that
> could head that danger off would seem to be a less bad alternative.

And so I see immediately deploying U.S. troops to the borders between the
Ukraine and Russia, Russian-controlled areas of the Ukraine, and Belarus as
the only sane alternative.
Once there is a "fait accompli", a U.S. invasion of the Ukraine to change its
regime back would start a war - but with U.S. troops on the border, a Russian
invasion, as it would be what starts a war, *would not take place*.
If the U.S. does _not_ stand firmly against Russian aggression, China will
be emboldened, and Taiwan will fall next.
And the result of that will be quite simple.
While the United States - and maybe France, Britain, and India - would retain
independence, Russia and China would proceed to divide up the rest of the
world between them.

Not that the United States would be _completely_ safe. Trump would win
the next election by a landslide after Biden presided over such a humiliation
for the U.S., so that country also would not escape losing its freedom.

John Savard

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:56:33 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 22:07:46 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >On Saturday, August 28, 2021 at 2:43:05 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> >> The thing is, though, we can't depend on either Russia or China to be
> >> peaceful. Russia has invaded two democracies, Georgia and the
> >> Ukraine, and is propping up the dictatorship in Belarus that forced down
> >> an Irish airplane. China is continuing to harass and threaten Taiwan.

> >> As these countries are creating conditions that may eventually lead
> >> to the ultimate disaster of a war with the United States, something that
> >> could head that danger off would seem to be a less bad alternative.

> >And so I see immediately deploying U.S. troops to the borders between the
> >Ukraine and Russia, Russian-controlled areas of the Ukraine, and Belarus as
> >the only sane alternative.

> So, according to you, the US has the right to invade Belarus and
> Ukraine but Russia doesn't?

Belarus committed an act of war against Ireland by falsely diverting
a passenger airline belonging to Ireland.

Also, why is Russia planning to invade the Ukraine? To take down a
democratic government and deprive people of their freedom.

> Have either of those countries _asked_ for US troops to be moved to
> their borders with Russia?

Permission would be sought from the government of the Ukraine. I
believe, from the news reports I've been seeing, that they would be
overjoyed that the U.S. was going to do more than ineffectively
talking to prevent them from being invaded.

> >Once there is a "fait accompli", a U.S. invasion of the Ukraine to change its
> >regime back would start a war - but with U.S. troops on the border, a Russian
> >invasion, as it would be what starts a war, *would not take place*.

> Why not?

Well, look at the history of the Cold War. Exactly when did the Soviet Union
send tanks rolling into West Germany?

> >If the U.S. does _not_ stand firmly against Russian aggression, China will
> >be emboldened, and Taiwan will fall next.

> The US doesn't even recognize Taiwan as a sovereign nation. Might
> want to start there instead of with soldiers.

The United States withdrew its formal recognition of Taiwan as a condition
imposed by the Chinese mainland in order to have diplomatic relations with
it. Just because it did this doesn't mean it doesn't wish Taiwan to continue
to exist as a nation of free people.

> >And the result of that will be quite simple.
> >While the United States - and maybe France, Britain, and India - would retain
> >independence, Russia and China would proceed to divide up the rest of the
> >world between them.

> The risk of Russia conquering the world is of the same magnitude as
> the risk of Italy conquering the world. As for China, if they decide
> to take over, I doubt that a few Yankee soldiers will deter them.

Shoot at a Yankee soldier, Yankee nuclear missiles start raining down
on you. That's what deters them.
That was the rule by which the Cold War stayed cold.
Also, if Russia were a pipsqueak country like Italy, how come the
Ukraine isn't laughing?

> >Not that the United States would be _completely_ safe. Trump would win
> >the next election by a landslide after Biden presided over such a humiliation
> >for the U.S., so that country also would not escape losing its freedom.

> I really wish people like you would get over Trump. He's history.
> Worry about deSantis if you want to worry about a big bad
> conservative.

Trump is a short word. Trump, de Santis, or some other Republican is a more
long-winded phrase. And the opinion polls don't seem to show Trump is
history just yet. But I certainly am also worried about de Santis and several
other similar Republicans who are potential alternatives to Trump, should he
decline, or be obliged to decline, a 2024 Presidential bid.

John Savard

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 6:28:21 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> So you're saying that the US should go into Belarus to punish their
> government, not to defend them from Russia?

No, at this time for the U.S. to go into Belarus would risk starting
a global thermonuclear war, so I am not saying that the U.S. should
invade Belarus at this time.
What I had said was that U.S. forces should be stationed in territory
controlled by the government of the Ukraine, with that government's
permission, at the borders between the Ukraine and
- Russia
- Russian-held areas of the Ukraine
- Belarus

I hope this is clear now. Note, for example, how Hitler invaded
France: by going through Belgium instead of through the Maginot
Line. Thus, it would be a mistake to exclude the border with Belarus.

> >Permission would be sought from the government of the Ukraine.

> When it is received get back to us.

I would expect that Biden would contact the leadership of the
Ukraine, say by telephone, and start moving troops immediately
upon recieving permission. *Without giving Russia time to react
before U.S. troops are in place.*

After all, the whole point of the operation is to *prevent Russia
from invading*, not to *provoke Russia into invading*.

John Savard

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 8:28:21 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 14:19:27 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

> >Trump is a short word. Trump, de Santis, or some other Republican is a more
> >long-winded phrase. And the opinion polls don't seem to show Trump is
> >history just yet. But I certainly am also worried about de Santis and several
> >other similar Republicans who are potential alternatives to Trump, should he
> >decline, or be obliged to decline, a 2024 Presidential bid.

> "Decline"? Nobody in their right mind is going to nominate him. He
> did OK against Hillary because she shot herself in the foot and nobody
> had seen him in action. But he _barely_ beat Biden.

Huh? I assume you meant 'He barely beat Clinton'.

The 2016 election was a solid win for Trump in the Electoral College,
but a loss in the popular vote. Unfortunately, that's common, and why
we need to get rid of the EC.

The 2020 election was a clear win for Biden in both the EC and the vote.

pt

On 27/01/2022 12.09, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:45:41 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Huh? I assume you meant 'He barely beat Clinton'.
>>
>> The 2016 election was a solid win for Trump in the Electoral College,
>> but a loss in the popular vote. Unfortunately, that's common, and why
>> we need to get rid of the EC.
>
> Funny - that's what they said of Abe Lincoln in 1860 - 180 of 303
> electoral votes + 39% of the popular vote
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_presidential_election

However, that 39% was still a plurality, not a loss.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

On 2022-01-27 2:52 p.m., The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:16:30 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 27/01/2022 12.09, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:45:41 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Funny - that's what they said of Abe Lincoln in 1860 - 180 of 303
>>> electoral votes + 39% of the popular vote
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_presidential_election
>>
>> However, that 39% was still a plurality, not a loss.
>
> The catch is Trudeau won 32.6 % of the last popular vote while the
> Conservatives got 33.7% - yet for the same reason in the US 2016
> election managed to win more districts and thus win. And had exactly
> the same result in the 2019 election. Yes you heard me correctly -
> Trudeau has won two consecutive elections by winning the most seats
> while NEVER winning a popular vote plurality.

Which is not of course, true. He did win a plurality in the first
election. He lost 20 seats and 6.4% while the Conservatives gained 24
seats and 3.2% of the popular vote the second time around. However one
difference between Canada and the United States is that Canada's
election is not a two party race. The ruling coalition of Liberal and
NDP did get a majority of the popular vote in the first election and a
plurality in the second election with the biggest gainer being the Parti
Quebecois aka the "Fuck All You Guys" party.

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 8:51:07 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> The calls to do away with the EC are based in the mistaken belief that
> (a) the US is a democracy and (b) democracy is a good thing. The
> People should have some say, but deciding goverment policy on the
> basis of fads is a recipe for disaster.

The United States is a republic, which means that it is one kind of democracy,
a representative democracy.
A government system other than tyranny or anarchy is indeed a good thing.

It is indeed true that government policy ought to be decided by sober and
rational individuals who know what they're doing. That is the advantage of
representative democracy over direct democracy.
The Electoral College does not, however, do much towards achieving that
goal. Instead, it promotes another goal - ensuring that a government has wide
regional representation, instead of allowing a majority in one part of the country
to run the whole for its own benefit.

It is not, however, a "fad" that every American has a fundamental right to vote
and to have his vote counted. In several American states, Republican governments
have taken measures that disproportionately hinder black Americans from voting.
This has been documented, for example, in the pages of the _Washington Post_.
Action needs to be taken in response to this.
I am shocked that this is happening. Such activity should not simply not take place;
it should be _unthinkable_ - it should be regarded with the most intense revulsion by
nearly all Americans from one end of the country to the other.
Apparently, this is not the case, and therefore attitudes will have to be changed.

John Savard

On 2022-01-27 8:51 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:09:03 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:45:41 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Huh? I assume you meant 'He barely beat Clinton'.
>>>
>>> The 2016 election was a solid win for Trump in the Electoral College,
>>> but a loss in the popular vote. Unfortunately, that's common, and why
>>> we need to get rid of the EC.
>>
>> Funny - that's what they said of Abe Lincoln in 1860 - 180 of 303
>> electoral votes + 39% of the popular vote
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_presidential_election
>>
>> (if anything 1864 was worse with 90% of the EV and 55% of the PV in a
>> straight 2 way race - I'd love to know more about how Louisiana was
>> readmitted to the Union extremely quickly as they did count Electoral
>> Votes in 1864 despite having been part of the Confederacy but by that
>> time militarily occupied by the Union)
>>
>>> The 2020 election was a clear win for Biden in both the EC and the vote.
>>
>> Yup - on the whole the EC does what the Founding Fathers intended -
>> ensuring the winner has significant support nation wide.

What the Founding Fathers intended was to get Virginia to join so they
needed a system where slaves counted in the presidential election for
enumeration purposes.

They were
>> designing a system not clear on how many parties would contest the
>> election and on the whole they did pretty well. A good counter-example
>> is Canada where Justin Trudeau has 'won' 2 terms despite NEVER
>> achieving 40+% of the popular vote and another party getting a larger
>> popular vote in both his 'wins'.

Something which did not actually happen. He got a larger popular vote
in his first win. As for his victory in the second election, that
happened because like the American president, he isn't directly elected.

>
> The calls to do away with the EC are based in the mistaken belief that
> (a) the US is a democracy a

Ah. So the United States is a dictatorship. Good to know.

nd (b) democracy is a good thing. The
> People should have some say, but deciding goverment policy on the
> basis of fads is a recipe for disaster.

And yet the president's election in 2016 was in fact the product of a fad.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:

> The United States is a republic,

Correct, there is no monarch.

>which means that it is one kind of democracy,

Non sequitur. There are, and were, many republics which are not
democracies - Germany 1933-1945 being a prime example.

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 3:06:47 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 06:54:50 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> >In several American states, Republican governments
> >have taken measures that disproportionately hinder black Americans from voting.

> Because the majorities in those states want it that way. You're the
> one telling us how great democracy is.

Actually, it's more like this:

1) Thanks to gerrymandering, Republicans form the majority of the members
in the legislatures of those states, even if that isn't what the majority wants;

2) Since gerrymandering won't work in a Presidential election, voter suppression
is needed there.

In any case, it isn't democracy if all the qualified voters aren't equal. I don't see a
conflict between democracy and a Constitution which protects individual rights;
in fact, that is an essential condition of democracy.

Basically, it's just that there was a historical error: after the Civil War, Reconstruction
was ended, and the rebel states re-admitted to the Union, before the work of transforming
Southern society to something in which complete and absolute equality of the black
people there was a fact, a given, and all resistance and opposition to it was irrevocably
neutralized was completed.

Democracy is for the benefit of people of good will who respect the rights of others.
People who violate the rights of others can get put in jail. Human rights are fundamental
postulates - as irrevocable as the fundamental premises of mathematics. If the majority
in a society attempts to vote into office a party that intends to violate the rights of a minority
group, this is not democracy at work, this is a systematic failure; basically, the political unit
in which this takes place can be considered to be populated largely by beings not competent
to vote or govern themselves.

So the rules for that area are set from outside, just as the rules for small children are set
by their adult parents.

John Savard

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 8:35:42 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> Sorry, Quadi, but in a democracy you don't make the rules.

There are clearly a number of difficulties here.

One of them is the meaning of the word "democracy". You use it,
apparently, to mean mob rule. While I agree that mob rule is a bad
system, if a specific safeguard, such as the Electoral College, leads
to outcomes _worse_ than the preference of the majority, then clearly
it isn't, at least at present, performing a useful function.

I use the term "democracy" to describe just about any system where
the people have... the final say. Not just _a_ say, because that could
mean a partial say that could be overridden - but the ability, if they
wish, to swap out their representatives who are only temporarily
empowered to make decisions on their behalf.

But respecting the rights of all is also an essential condition of anything
I would call a democracy.

And I have no problem with claiming it right and just to take self-government
away from any population which would oppress a minority among it -
because this isn't about _my_ whims, _my_ choices, or _my_ preferences.
I was not the one who said, this is just, and this is unjust, before the beginning
of time.

John Savard