In message <t65oka$18p5$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:44:10 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:24:34 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t652g1$io6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:26:25 on Thu, 19 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Wed, 18 May 2022 10:45:54 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t60g5d$r2o$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:49:01 on Tue, 17 May
>>>>>Then they won't be able to make decent videos regardless of the platform.
>>>>
>>>>You can upload videos to Facebook in a couple of clicks (usually from
>>>>your phone). Most of the time those are adequate.
>>>
>>>Have you ever watched youtube?
>>
>>Many times, including yesterday. I even have my own channel. What's your
>>channel called?
>
>Feel free to point us to it then.

This is the most recent addition I think
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odyWdw_BVKo&t=46s> (Yes, still got the
unresolved dashcam wobble).

>>>If you check my posting times you'll find they generally happen once or twice
>>>a day in the space of 5 mins.
>>
>>So we'll get some respite after your 9.30am binge today?
>
>Seemed so.
>
>>>>>No one has several hundred friends so use a sensible example.
>>>>
>>>>It's commonplace for people with a suitable temperament. And of course
>>>
>>>No it isn't. You're confusing friends with aquaintances and colleagues.
>>
>>Not as much as you are disassociating people who were once acquaintances
>>and colleagues, from what are now friends.
>
>And how often do you see them? A friend is someone you see in person a number
>of times a year.

A rather odd definition. There are plenty of people I see in person
every couple of weeks, who I wouldn't call 'friends'. On the other hand
in the 21st Century one can see people online as well as in person.

[Reminds me of when, in about 1983, I was chatting by modem with a
friend who operated a dial-up bulletin board, and it took a while to
exchange each thought because of slow typing speeds, and I joked that
if only we both weren't tying up our phone lines already, we could have
a proper voice conversation]

>>>Where did I say only? Its the preferable way.
>>
>>What's your most commonplace way?
>
>Phone.

Not instant messaging (of various kinds)? Does hearing their voice make
a particular difference to you. I see we have very different
perspectives on these things.

>>>>They are real enough, thanks.
>>>
>>>Says it all.
>>
>>While I no longer get/send about two hundred Xmas cards a year like I
>>did in the 90's, modern technology allows to me to keep in much more
>>frequent contact with larger numbers.
>
>Gosh. So you can catch up with john Smith who you worked with in 1995 and
>haven't met in person or spoken to live since, but he's a real close friend,
>honest.

Actually, I'd go back further than that (to at least the mid-80's), and
cast the net wider (not just ex-workmates) and further afield (many are
living abroad); nor are they so fickle that they'd cross me off the list
just because it's a year or two since we last met in person.

The living abroad is a real killer for phone calls (when my wife moved
to the UK from the USA it took several years to train all her friends
not to call at 3am - 9pm their time). But she's recently started a
weekly Zoom-like chat group with some of her college friends, so that's
four decades ago.

When email first became a thing she organised a [20th?] High School
reunion from 5,000 miles away (and we actually flew over and attended).
That was partly a result of her being one of the editors of the
Yearbook, which are quite a tradition over there. And to close the loop:
Facebook was originally an online clone of a College [as they call
University, over there] yearbook.

I remember when I joined FB in 2007, I had to nominate a UK college to
be associated with (and yes, that College still has annual in-person
dinners, although I don't attend very many; although some of my friends
recently went to a 50th).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6dqum$c8s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:12:54 on Sun, 22 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6273a$mlb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:26:35 on Wed, 18 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>> You do spout a lot of rubbish sometimes. Plenty of browsers used to
>>> support "hyperlinks" to telnet servers, does that make telnet part
>>>of the web?
>>
>> You are going to double-hate this:
>>
>> (1) Because it turned up in my Facebook feed of a group, of interest to
>> computer historians.
>>
>> (2) The text "To try the Web, telnet to info.cern.ch..."
>>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Early-Web.jpg
>
>Using Telnet to gain access to a web client doesn’t make Telnet part of the
>web.

Perhaps not (however Telnet is a WWW protocol for reasons cited
earlier). It was just interesting to see Telnet and 'the Web' in the
same sentence.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>
>Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>Muttley, because he's just not listening.

So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of whatever
mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?

On Sun, 22 May 2022 17:49:03 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6273a$mlb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:26:35 on Wed, 18 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>You do spout a lot of rubbish sometimes. Plenty of browsers used to
>>support "hyperlinks" to telnet servers, does that make telnet part of the web?
>
>
>You are going to double-hate this:
>
>(1) Because it turned up in my Facebook feed of a group, of interest to
> computer historians.
>
>(2) The text "To try the Web, telnet to info.cern.ch..."
>
>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Early-Web.jpg

So what? You log into a system to run a text based browser which then accesses
the web. But then we've established you believe the web encompasses all human
knowledge and access methods to data so this discussion is rather pointless.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:19:28 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>Phone.
>
>Not instant messaging (of various kinds)? Does hearing their voice make
>a particular difference to you. I see we have very different
>perspectives on these things.

Are you autistic? Because your social interation is very odd.

In message <t65odi$15lu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:40:34 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:50:25 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t652o2$mln$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:30:42 on Thu, 19 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>I've answered that in detail in a posting yesterday, but it certainly
>>>>clarifies the widespread confusion (which you share) that "The Web" is
>>>>only http.
>>>
>>>It is only http.
>>
>>Against overwhelming evidence, much of it written by the chap credited
>
>What evidence?

The rfc I quoted chapter and verse.

>>with inventing the WWW! You are a very brave dissident.
>
>Which bit?

Which bit of the WWW? Well, the specification, for starters.

>>Next you'll be telling me that all websites start www.<something>
>>
>>So I suppose news.google.com is their usenet server????
>
>It doesn't matter what it is. If its accessed using HTTP its part of the
>web, if it isn't then it isn't.

That's your oft-stated misconception.

>If the web is extended to mean the entire internet then what do you call
>the HTTP part?

No, not the entire Internet, just the parts referenced by URIs (and thus
involving hyperlinks).

Not wishing to start even more hares running, but the multitude of other
"things" (a term of art m'lud) which are part of the "Internet of
Things" will use many protocols other than htp.

>>>>I rather suspect that when you download updates from microsoft.com
>>>>they'll be arriving by ftp, despite MS having retired their
>>>>public-facing ftp-server user interface some time around 2015.
>>>
>>>I don't use Windows, never have except at work.
>>
>><sigh>
>> I rather suspect that when people download updates from microsoft.com
>> they'll be arriving by ftp, despite MS having retired their
>> public-facing ftp-server user interface some time around 2015.
>
>I have no idea, nor do I care or see the slightest relevance to the point.

The first four words are ironic.

And the point is that the ftp protocol used to download those updates is
one of those which embraces (not necessarily universally) hyperlinks.

>>>But what has that got to do with the web? Just because a URL can point
>>>at a service doesn't mean that service is a web service.
>>
>>Apart from Tim B-L saying it does.
>
>Cite.

<sigh> Are you really incapable of reading up-thread?

I'll repeat:

(from URI rfc)

"The web is considered to include objects accessed using an
extendable number of protocols, existing, invented for the web
itself, or to be invented in the future.
...
Notes on particular protocols follow. These URIs are frequently
referred to as URLs ... The schemes covered are:

http Hypertext Transfer Protocol

ftp File Transfer protocol

gopher Gopher protocol

mailto Electronic mail address

news Usenet news

telnet, rlogin and tn3270
Reference to interactive sessions

wais Wide Area Information Servers

file Local file access"

>The URL is part of the web, the access method isn't.

You just did a u-turn mid sentence. And have a think about what "The
web... include objects accessed using a number of protocols" means,
above, and why you've decided it doesn't include them.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>
>>Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>
>So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of whatever
>mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?

The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).

Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
our suite in Telehouse".
--
Roland Perry

In message <t65o51$1143$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:36:01 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:11:07 -0000 (UTC)
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:07:38 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t60fph$kvr$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:42:41 on Tue, 17 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> In the sense of most large corporation websites which were usually hosted
>>in
>>>>> their home countries regardless of the tld on the end long before AWS came
>>>>> along.
>>>>
>>>> Bearing in mind that tlds have two categories: gTLD and ccTLD, the
>>>> former says nothing about the location of the company or the server, and
>>>> while the latter in many cases are restricted to registrants whose admin
>>>> offices are in the relevant territory [including .us, which is rarely
>>>> seen in the wild] I'm unaware of many regulatory restrictions on the
>>>> location of servers.
>>>>
>>>> In passing, I'll note that Nominet has muddied the waters a lot by
>>>> allowing .uk to become territory-agnostic, especially as (a) we here are
>>>> all UK folks and (b) .uk has traditionally been the most popular ccTLD
>>>> by number of registrations, although lately overtaken and number 4.
>>>
>>> I'd have thought .tv was one of the most popular and has been territory
>>> agnostic for donkeys years as its a nice little earner for Tuvalu.
>>>
>>>>> FTP is not part of the web which is an HTTP service.
>>>>
>>>> I've answered that in detail in a posting yesterday, but it certainly
>>>> clarifies the widespread confusion (which you share) that "The Web" is
>>>> only http.
>>>
>>> It is only http.
>>
>><cough> https </cough>
>>
>>Yes, it’s HTTP commands but it’s sufficiently different
>>to have its own URL
>>
>>scheme defined.
>
>Its HTTP over SSL. Everything else is the same.

FTP is HTTP over SSL; or something else?

--
Roland Perry

In message <t68cng$1bn7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:39:28 on Fri, 20 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:06:12 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <l8ke8hpgf9ivqakslt9j71vb3meapmi3rj@4ax.com>, at 09:29:32 on
>>>In that list of protocols you copied up-thread you included file://.
>>>So you claim
>>
>>The document in question was written by Tim B-L. Did he die and someone
>>else fill his shoes?
>
>His grandiose ideas in 93 have probably changed somewhat in the intervening
>qurter century.

You appear to be trying to ring-fence them to a subset. If anything, the
WWW today surpasses anything he originally dreamed about.

>>>that local files are part of the Web?
>>
>>Of course they are. "The Web" (commonly mis-conflated with "The
>>Internet") is all resources available a user. Some of which are
>>locally-hosted files, as well as remote-hosted files.
>
>So if I access a file on the command line am I accessing "The Web"? Or does
>it magically only become "The Web" when done through a browser? Are USB
>drives part of it too?

If any of the above are accessible via a URI, then yes.

>What about when they're removed? What if I print
>something out - is the paper part of it too?

Paper is not a documented URI protocol.

>What you're essentially saying is that any data stored anywhere on any medium
>accessed in any way is part of the web making the term utterly meaningless.

Only if referenced via a URI.

>>But insisting (as I normally do) on having [Static] public IP addresses,
>
>You must have a very accomodating ISP.

I don't have "an" ISP, I have over the years had numerous connectivity
ISPs, [to avoid confusing you even more than you already are, I'll not
talk about the content ISPs].

Whether it requires them to be described as "accommodating" in providing
static IP addressing, is semantics. I'd call it "old school".

>>anyone could potentially access [with suitable credentials] files on my
>>computer. That is precisely what the Internet is all about!!
>
>Yes, but thats not the web.

Of course it is. For several years www.perry.co.uk was hosted on a
'desktop' under my desk (whether the term "desktop" only applies to
tower PCs on my desk, rather than under my desk, is a rathole we need
not explore today). Although I don't think I've ever heard them refereed
to as "floortops".

It also hosted my SMTP mail inbound and outbound servers, which
surprised one call centre operative who said "I'll send you an email
about that", and before she'd finished the sentence I said "yes, it's
arrived here".

>>>And Microsoft Update has used BITS for a long time now.
>>
>>Like I said, they retired their overtly ftp site in 2015. No doubt
>>Muttley will be along in a minute to claim that BITS is http, otherwise
>>it can't possibly be coming from a server on the web.
>
>I have no idea. If its via an HTTP server its part of the web, if it isn't
>then it isn't.

Groundhog day.

--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>
>>>Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>
>>So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of whatever
>>mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>
>The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>
>Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>our suite in Telehouse".

So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
Got it.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 14:00:32 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t65o51$1143$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:36:01 on Thu, 19 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 19 May 2022 10:11:07 -0000 (UTC)
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:07:38 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t60fph$kvr$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:42:41 on Tue, 17 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> In the sense of most large corporation websites which were usually hosted
>
>>>in
>>>>>> their home countries regardless of the tld on the end long before AWS
>came
>>>>>> along.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bearing in mind that tlds have two categories: gTLD and ccTLD, the
>>>>> former says nothing about the location of the company or the server, and
>>>>> while the latter in many cases are restricted to registrants whose admin
>>>>> offices are in the relevant territory [including .us, which is rarely
>>>>> seen in the wild] I'm unaware of many regulatory restrictions on the
>>>>> location of servers.
>>>>>
>>>>> In passing, I'll note that Nominet has muddied the waters a lot by
>>>>> allowing .uk to become territory-agnostic, especially as (a) we here are
>>>>> all UK folks and (b) .uk has traditionally been the most popular ccTLD
>>>>> by number of registrations, although lately overtaken and number 4.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have thought .tv was one of the most popular and has been territory
>>>> agnostic for donkeys years as its a nice little earner for Tuvalu.
>>>>
>>>>>> FTP is not part of the web which is an HTTP service.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've answered that in detail in a posting yesterday, but it certainly
>>>>> clarifies the widespread confusion (which you share) that "The Web" is
>>>>> only http.
>>>>
>>>> It is only http.
>>>
>>><cough> https </cough>
>>>
>>>Yes, it’s HTTP commands but it’s sufficiently different
>>>to have its own URL
>>>
>>>scheme defined.
>>
>>Its HTTP over SSL. Everything else is the same.
>
>FTP is HTTP over SSL; or something else?

HTTPS. Do try and keep up.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 14:36:34 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>What about when they're removed? What if I print
>>something out - is the paper part of it too?
>
>Paper is not a documented URI protocol.

Neither is SCSI but you seem to think anything on a disk is fair game.

>>What you're essentially saying is that any data stored anywhere on any medium
>>accessed in any way is part of the web making the term utterly meaningless.
>
>Only if referenced via a URI.

Ah riiight. So if you put file:// in front of a filename its part of the web
but if you don't it isn't. Okaaaay, got it!

Are you making this up as you go along?

>Groundhog day.

Indeed. So just admit you're wrong and move on.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>> provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>> by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>> possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>> have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>> jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>> across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>> Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>>
>>> So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of whatever
>>> mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>>
>> The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>>
>> Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>> necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>> our suite in Telehouse".
>
> So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
> Got it.
>
>
>

No. In ye olde days someone technical within the company would know that
information, or something akin to it. With Cloud services they don’t,
primarily because the workload could potentially be allocated to one of
many data centres, and that location might vary by time of day. Likely the
contracts department might know the legal jurisdiction of the data centres
and any geographic restrictions negotiated.

In message <t6ga1i$mag$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:42:42 on Mon, 23 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>>provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>>by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>>possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>>have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>>jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>>across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>>
>>>>Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>>Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>>
>>>So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of whatever
>>>mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>>
>>The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>>
>>Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>>necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>>our suite in Telehouse".
>
>So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
>Got it.

If they didn't know, it might be because it was the server in the back
room at the office, or the second server down in the third rack at
Telecity.

None of these answers imply it was therefore distributed within a cloud.

Got it?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t67r9s$1802$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:42:04 on Fri, 20 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:25:08 -0000 (UTC)
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> While I'm sure this is going to be controversial, I regard the WWW as
>>> something which was discovered, rather than invented. A bit like Newton
>
>Are you smoking something illegal Roland? How do you "discover" HTTP and HTML?

The concept of hyperlinks is almost a natural phenomenon. Something
that's much more discovery than an invention.

>>> and his laws of motion. Had he never been born, someone else would have
>>> done similar work sooner or later. Indeed there were implementations of
>>> linked information in the wild previously.
>
>Laws of nature are there to be discovered. Human inventions are not. Did
>someone "discover" the car?

Yes, I'd say they did. It's actually a rather bad example for you to
choose, because the original name was "horseless carriage", and putting
an engine in a carriage, rather than pulling it with an animal, is not
something that one person's "invention" of, meant that otherwise we'd
all still have stables at the back of the house.

>>Like many inventions (and I do think of the WWW as being an invention
>>rather than a discovery) it was based on much work that went before - Ted
>>Nelson and Douglas Englebart are the obvious references but there are many
>
>Some good videos on youtube by Nelson, though some of his ideas are a bit
>out there and impractical IMO.

There have been lots of ideas, Internet-related ideas even, that didn't
catch on. Multicast (a sort of inverse of a cloud) is one that springs
to mind.

>>more. Also it wasn’t clear that WWW was going to be the way to go - Gopher
>>and WAIS were the contemporary competitors but earlier work such as Apple’s
>>HyperCard clearly fed into it.
>
>Search engines were the killer app for the web.

Given that Google wasn't even founded until 1998, it was a bit late to
the party.

Somewhere I have a copy of "the Internet Yellow Pages", which sought to
list websites using the same model as its bricks-and-mortar counterpart.

Published as late as 1996. (You'll be able to find it on Amazon, which
dates from 1995 with that name). Proudly listed the 10,000 websites on
the Internet [which it had heard about] although I've seen other
evidence for that point being passed by the end of 1994 (re: launch of
the first MSM publication 'The Electronic Telegraph')

The thing which I believe made The Internet catch on was interoperable
email addresses. Before around 1992, when people started rolling out
Internet gateways to proprietary online platforms, you needed accounts
with several of them, just to be able to contact random people at all
(on whatever platform they'd randomly chosen). And soon after that,
having an Internet-DNS based email account meant you could scrap all the
proprietary others (and still be reachable).

Here's the back of the business card of a chap I met (early 90's
obviously), who once worked for what was at the time the biggest US
retail computer store, but I think had recently moved to be a product
manager at Lotus (of "Notes" fame).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Stegman.jpg

Of course, by then we actually had the Internet DNS, some of my friends
earlier had email addresses such as <surname>@rrl, [where rrl = Racal
Research Ltd, from which sprang much packet radio and later Vodafone
telephony]

A friend of an acquaintance had what I still think is one of the best
email addresses ever: dot@dotat.at

>Problem with gopher was that trying to find something was a right PITA
>and going through endless menus soon became tedious.
>
>There was also archie which was an early search system using a proprietary
>protocol but IIRC only indexed FTP sites.

Not every service over the Internet was a success. That's evolution for
you.

--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 23 May 2022 16:30:54 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>>> provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>>> by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>>> possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>>> have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>>> jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>>> across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>>> Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>>>
>>>> So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of
>whatever
>>>> mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>>>
>>> The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>>>
>>> Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>>> necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>>> our suite in Telehouse".
>>
>> So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
>> Got it.
>>
>>
>>
>
>No. In ye olde days someone technical within the company would know that
>information, or something akin to it. With Cloud services they don’t,

Someone in AWS does. So you're saying it depends what company runs it?

On Mon, 23 May 2022 18:08:27 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6ga1i$mag$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:42:42 on Mon, 23 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>>>provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>>>by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>>>possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>>>have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>>>jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>>>across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>>>
>>>>>Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>>>Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>>>
>>>>So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of whatever
>
>>>>mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>>>
>>>The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>>>
>>>Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>>>necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>>>our suite in Telehouse".
>>
>>So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
>>Got it.
>
>If they didn't know, it might be because it was the server in the back
>room at the office, or the second server down in the third rack at
>Telecity.
>
>None of these answers imply it was therefore distributed within a cloud.

You do realise distributed just means different computers?

On Mon, 23 May 2022 20:50:15 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t67r9s$1802$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:42:04 on Fri, 20 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:25:08 -0000 (UTC)
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> While I'm sure this is going to be controversial, I regard the WWW as
>>>> something which was discovered, rather than invented. A bit like Newton
>>
>>Are you smoking something illegal Roland? How do you "discover" HTTP and HTML?
>
>
>The concept of hyperlinks is almost a natural phenomenon. Something
>that's much more discovery than an invention.

What utter bullshit. You might as well say anything invented was waiting to
be discovered because it existed out there in the possibility of ideas.

>>Search engines were the killer app for the web.
>
>Given that Google wasn't even founded until 1998, it was a bit late to
>the party.

Who mentioned Google? Altavista came along in 95.

>Here's the back of the business card of a chap I met (early 90's
>obviously), who once worked for what was at the time the biggest US
>retail computer store, but I think had recently moved to be a product
>manager at Lotus (of "Notes" fame).
>
>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Stegman.jpg

Probably quicker to phone than enter that X400 address.

In message <t6hvpr$1ma2$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:00:11 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 23 May 2022 16:30:54 -0000 (UTC)
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>>>> provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>>>> by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>>>> possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>>>> have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>>>> jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>>>> across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>>>> Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of
>>whatever
>>>>> mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>>>>
>>>> The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>>>>
>>>> Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>>>> necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>>>> our suite in Telehouse".
>>>
>>> So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
>>> Got it.
>>
>>No. In ye olde days someone technical within the company would know that
>>information, or something akin to it. With Cloud services they don’t,
>
>Someone in AWS does. So you're saying it depends what company runs it?

The load might be distributed between different locations, and switched
around automatically. Someone in the cloud services company might be
able to find out, given a date and time, the right diagnostic tools, and
an incentive to spend time on it. And maybe a warrant or NDA (Amazon is
a secretive company).

Oh, and what was the question again? Which data centre (a little over
fifty worldwide) or which computer (a little over a million).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> A friend of an acquaintance had what I still think is one of the best
> email addresses ever: dot@dotat.at
>

Really difficult to convey accurately, verbally, though!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t6igpd$fu4$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:05 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> A friend of an acquaintance had what I still think is one of the best
>> email addresses ever: dot@dotat.at
>
>Really difficult to convey accurately, verbally, though!

That's at least half of the point ;)
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6i09o$1scl$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:08:40 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 23 May 2022 20:50:15 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t67r9s$1802$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:42:04 on Fri, 20 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:25:08 -0000 (UTC)
>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> While I'm sure this is going to be controversial, I regard the WWW as
>>>>> something which was discovered, rather than invented. A bit like Newton
>>>
>>>Are you smoking something illegal Roland? How do you "discover" HTTP
>>>and HTML?
>>
>>The concept of hyperlinks is almost a natural phenomenon. Something
>>that's much more discovery than an invention.
>
>What utter bullshit. You might as well say anything invented was waiting to
>be discovered because it existed out there in the possibility of ideas.

At no stage have I said that "anything invented" (aka 'everything
invented') fits into this category. But plenty of them do. If the jet
engine hadn't been invented when it was, do we think that planes would
still be flying around with propellors?

>>>Search engines were the killer app for the web.
>>
>>Given that Google wasn't even founded until 1998, it was a bit late to
>>the party.
>
>Who mentioned Google? Altavista came along in 95.

Just scraped in, launched December 1995 (that's a month after IE2,
fourteen months after Netscape, and mass market Internet access/portal
had already been in the wild for six months) so it will have helped
nudge adoption on a little, and in my opinion it wasn't the killer app.

>>Here's the back of the business card of a chap I met (early 90's
>>obviously), who once worked for what was at the time the biggest US
>>retail computer store, but I think had recently moved to be a product
>>manager at Lotus (of "Notes" fame).
>>
>>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Stegman.jpg
>
>Probably quicker to phone than enter that X400 address.

As long as you didn't in the morning, because Californians were all
asleep in bed. (One also hopes that any decent email client has an
address book).

My wife's employers at the time used Notes, as a form of groupware, and
like Usenet a big benefit was the "thread" of the earlier discussion, as
well as the many-to-many aspects; you'll recall my remarks about
Facebook having [both] these as well.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6hvv8$1o2i$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:03:05 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 23 May 2022 18:08:27 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6ga1i$mag$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:42:42 on Mon, 23 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Mon, 23 May 2022 13:19:23 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t6fjc9$1lsv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:15:53 on Mon, 23 May
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 16:32:52 +0100
>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>In message <t65s80$hvg$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:52 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>The real difference between modern Cloud based services and remotely
>>>>>>>provided services at some location other than where you are in days gone
>>>>>>>by, is that the latter were usually in one well known data centre with
>>>>>>>possibly a standby location. Customers of modern Cloud services usually
>>>>>>>have no idea where the data centre is (you might know the legal
>>>>>>>jurisdiction if required) and your data and workload can be splattered
>>>>>>>across multiple locations and even dynamically move location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Indeed so. And I have tired of repeating this self-evident truth to
>>>>>>Muttley, because he's just not listening.
>>>>>
>>>>>So you and all the other users always knew the physical location of
>>>>>whatever
>>
>>>>>mapped drives you used in your corporate office did you?
>>>>
>>>>The receptionist probably didn't (nor would we expect them to).
>>>>
>>>>Most of the more permanent users probably had some idea, and if
>>>>necessary could ask. "It's the third server down, the second rack, in
>>>>our suite in Telehouse".
>>>
>>>So if they didn't know it would be cloud but because some did it wasn't.
>>>Got it.
>>
>>If they didn't know, it might be because it was the server in the back
>>room at the office, or the second server down in the third rack at
>>Telecity.
>>
>>None of these answers imply it was therefore distributed within a cloud.
>
>You do realise distributed just means different computers?

It's necessary, but not sufficient.

Here's a formal definition picked with a pin:

Distributed computing (or distributed processing) is the technique of
linking together multiple computer servers over a network into a
cluster, to share data and to coordinate processing power.

And such clusters are often colloquially referred to as a cloud.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6fjg9$1nv3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:18:01 on Mon, 23 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sun, 22 May 2022 17:49:03 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6273a$mlb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:26:35 on Wed, 18 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>You do spout a lot of rubbish sometimes. Plenty of browsers used to
>>>support "hyperlinks" to telnet servers, does that make telnet part of
>>>the web?
>>
>>
>>You are going to double-hate this:
>>
>>(1) Because it turned up in my Facebook feed of a group, of interest to
>> computer historians.
>>
>>(2) The text "To try the Web, telnet to info.cern.ch..."
>>
>>http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Early-Web.jpg
>
>So what? You log into a system to run a text based browser which then accesses
>the web. But then we've established you believe the web encompasses all human
>knowledge and access methods to data so this discussion is rather pointless.

It's certainly pointless if you so egregiously misquote what I've said.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6fjln$1pvr$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:20:55 on Mon, 23 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 23 May 2022 07:19:28 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Phone.
>>
>>Not instant messaging (of various kinds)? Does hearing their voice make
>>a particular difference to you. I see we have very different
>>perspectives on these things.
>
>Are you autistic? Because your social interation is very odd.

Odd in what way - having so many old friends I'm communicating with, or
something else?
--
Roland Perry