On Thu, 26 May 2022 16:15:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:57:18 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:29:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>No it isn't. The web is a network based data access system that uses HTTP(S).
>>
>>No, it isn't, as those of us who have actually worked in this arena are
>>trying to tell you.
>
>What does worked in this area mean? You once configured an apache server?

It means I've worked in IT for the majority of my career, and on the
Internet in particular since the 90s. Even more in particular, I've been
writing websites since only a few years after the web was created, and
since *before* RFC 1630, which documents web URIs, was published.

>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a network
>bound together by HTTP. But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise
>sage who clearly talks to people who have other ideas.

You clearly haven't met very many people who have worked on the Internet
for any great length of time, then.

Mark

In message <t6o92l$um7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:15:17 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:57:18 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:29:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>No it isn't. The web is a network based data access system that uses HTTP(S).
>>
>>No, it isn't, as those of us who have actually worked in this arena are
>>trying to tell you.
>
>What does worked in this area mean? You once configured an apache server?
>
>>Obviously, I cannot force you to accept my credentials in this respect,
>
>You haven't given any.
>
>>and you're perfectly at liberty to believe what you want about the
>>nature of the wweb, particularly as your opinion isn't going to make any
>>difference at all to how you or anyone else uses it. You can believe
>>that driving a train is the same as driving a bus, too, if you want to,
>>and that isn't going to stop the trains running. Your imperfect
>>knowledge isn't going to stop the world going round. But other people
>>may find the explanation interesting and informative.
>
>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a network
>bound together by HTTP.

You should get out more. One of the nice things about working in what's
known as the I* community [IETF, IANA, ICANN, ISOC, IXP, rIr and nIc -
will do as a shortlist], is you get to meet the people who devised and
now run The Internet on behalf of ISPs and their customers.

You don't have to be a staffer (although that accelerates the process),
most events are open to the public.

Assuming you want something fairly local, UKNOF50 is in London in
September, but the archives are online, of course. (Including your
favourite - YouTube).

>But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise sage who clearly
>talks to people who have other ideas.

A developer who unfortunately doesn't see the full picture.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 26 May 2022 19:52:52 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 May 2022 16:15:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:57:18 +0100
>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:29:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>No it isn't. The web is a network based data access system that uses
>HTTP(S).
>>>
>>>No, it isn't, as those of us who have actually worked in this arena are
>>>trying to tell you.
>>
>>What does worked in this area mean? You once configured an apache server?
>
>It means I've worked in IT for the majority of my career, and on the

Snap.

>Internet in particular since the 90s. Even more in particular, I've been
>writing websites since only a few years after the web was created, and

So you're a web monkey.

>>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a
>network
>>bound together by HTTP. But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise
>>sage who clearly talks to people who have other ideas.
>
>You clearly haven't met very many people who have worked on the Internet
>for any great length of time, then.

Network programming - the proper kind using the sockets API including TCP,UDP
and raw for ethernet frames - in C/C++ is one of my specialities and one of
the systems I wrote connected a major US bank to the LSE so I suspect I have
a better idea of networks than someone who had to worry whether to use the
blink tag.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 07:13:46 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6o92l$um7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:15:17 on Thu, 26 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a
>network
>>bound together by HTTP.
>
>You should get out more. One of the nice things about working in what's
>known as the I* community [IETF, IANA, ICANN, ISOC, IXP, rIr and nIc -
>will do as a shortlist], is you get to meet the people who devised and
>now run The Internet on behalf of ISPs and their customers.

I worked with Roger Scantlebury for a while in the 90s. Google him.

>>But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise sage who clearly
>>talks to people who have other ideas.
>
>A developer who unfortunately doesn't see the full picture.

I see the technical picture clearly, not the hand waving wafflefest you have
a habit of indulging in.

Am 27.05.2022 um 12:37 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:

> Network programming - the proper kind using the sockets API including TCP,UDP
> and raw for ethernet frames - in C/C++ is one of my specialities and one of
> the systems I wrote connected a major US bank to the LSE so I suspect I have
> a better idea of networks than someone who had to worry whether to use the
> blink tag.

This occupation as an "Internet techie" has clearly narrowed your
viewpoint towards the basic communication layer, so that you've fallen
completely out of the time in all things that concern "cloud matters",
i.e. business processes where the TCP end points are needed but might
change every couple of seconds.

In a different context: "neuroscientists are not philosophers". A brain
would not fucntion without the connections but understanding the
connections gives you little ideas on the emergent phenomena like
"theory of mind".

On Fri, 27 May 2022 10:37:02 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Thu, 26 May 2022 19:52:52 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Thu, 26 May 2022 16:15:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:57:18 +0100
>>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:29:42 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>No it isn't. The web is a network based data access system that uses
>>HTTP(S).
>>>>
>>>>No, it isn't, as those of us who have actually worked in this arena are
>>>>trying to tell you.
>>>
>>>What does worked in this area mean? You once configured an apache server?
>>
>>It means I've worked in IT for the majority of my career, and on the
>
>Snap.

I do not believe that to be true.

>>Internet in particular since the 90s. Even more in particular, I've been
>>writing websites since only a few years after the web was created, and
>
>So you're a web monkey.

If you include being the head of UK technical support for a major ISP,
working on the development of ecommerce facilities for a multinational
retailer, working as a systems administrator for a different ISP,
running the Internet side of a radio station, and now running my own
online publishing business as being a "web monkey" then yes, that might
possibly be true. I do write HTML, CSS and Javascript, of course, but
most of my work is on the back end.

>>>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a
>>network
>>>bound together by HTTP. But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise
>>>sage who clearly talks to people who have other ideas.
>>
>>You clearly haven't met very many people who have worked on the Internet
>>for any great length of time, then.
>
>Network programming - the proper kind using the sockets API including TCP,UDP
>and raw for ethernet frames - in C/C++ is one of my specialities and one of
>the systems I wrote connected a major US bank to the LSE so I suspect I have
>a better idea of networks than someone who had to worry whether to use the
>blink tag.

Your description of both the web and your own experience appears to be
somewhat dated. Maybe you're just forgetting it.

Mark

In message <t6q9pp$1dch$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:39:53 on Fri, 27 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 27 May 2022 07:13:46 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6o92l$um7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:15:17 on Thu, 26 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a
>>network
>>>bound together by HTTP.
>>
>>You should get out more. One of the nice things about working in what's
>>known as the I* community [IETF, IANA, ICANN, ISOC, IXP, rIr and nIc -
>>will do as a shortlist], is you get to meet the people who devised and
>>now run The Internet on behalf of ISPs and their customers.
>
>I worked with Roger Scantlebury for a while in the 90s. Google him.

Looks like a useful chap, but maybe not quite so involved in the content
(rather than transport) layers.

>>>But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise sage who clearly
>>>talks to people who have other ideas.
>>
>>A developer who unfortunately doesn't see the full picture.
>
>I see the technical picture clearly, not the hand waving wafflefest you have
>a habit of indulging in.

When I see him next, I'll tell Tim B-L what you think about his
contributions.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 27 May 2022 13:12:13 +0200
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 27.05.2022 um 12:37 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>
>> Network programming - the proper kind using the sockets API including TCP,UDP
>
>> and raw for ethernet frames - in C/C++ is one of my specialities and one of
>> the systems I wrote connected a major US bank to the LSE so I suspect I have
>> a better idea of networks than someone who had to worry whether to use the
>> blink tag.
>
>This occupation as an "Internet techie" has clearly narrowed your
>viewpoint towards the basic communication layer, so that you've fallen
>completely out of the time in all things that concern "cloud matters",
>i.e. business processes where the TCP end points are needed but might
>change every couple of seconds.

So like a web browser then with its multiple connections to whichever host
out of the cluster was chosen to serve a given connection.

>In a different context: "neuroscientists are not philosophers". A brain
>would not fucntion without the connections but understanding the
>connections gives you little ideas on the emergent phenomena like
>"theory of mind".

So what emergent properties does the cloud or the web have then?

On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:22:31 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 27 May 2022 10:37:02 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>It means I've worked in IT for the majority of my career, and on the
>>
>>Snap.
>
>I do not believe that to be true.

Believe what you bloody like pal, makes no odds to me. Apart from a 1 year
stint as an installations engineer I've been in dev in various roles ever since.

>>So you're a web monkey.
>
>If you include being the head of UK technical support for a major ISP,

IOW you kept an eye on the people on the phones.

>working on the development of ecommerce facilities for a multinational

What does "working on" translate to?

>retailer, working as a systems administrator for a different ISP,
>running the Internet side of a radio station, and now running my own
>online publishing business as being a "web monkey" then yes, that might
>possibly be true. I do write HTML, CSS and Javascript, of course, but
>most of my work is on the back end.

And how does any of this qualify you any more than me to pontificate on what
the web is or isn't?

>>Network programming - the proper kind using the sockets API including TCP,UDP
>>and raw for ethernet frames - in C/C++ is one of my specialities and one of
>>the systems I wrote connected a major US bank to the LSE so I suspect I have
>>a better idea of networks than someone who had to worry whether to use the
>>blink tag.
>
>Your description of both the web and your own experience appears to be
>somewhat dated. Maybe you're just forgetting it.

Dated? You do realise that underneath all the fluffy scripting languages
and pretty GUIs is still the same software technology as 30 years ago, just
running a thousand times faster. Someone has to program it and write the
libraries.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 15:31:29 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6q9pp$1dch$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:39:53 on Fri, 27 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Fri, 27 May 2022 07:13:46 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t6o92l$um7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:15:17 on Thu, 26 May
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a
>>>network
>>>>bound together by HTTP.
>>>
>>>You should get out more. One of the nice things about working in what's
>>>known as the I* community [IETF, IANA, ICANN, ISOC, IXP, rIr and nIc -
>>>will do as a shortlist], is you get to meet the people who devised and
>>>now run The Internet on behalf of ISPs and their customers.
>>
>>I worked with Roger Scantlebury for a while in the 90s. Google him.
>
>Looks like a useful chap, but maybe not quite so involved in the content
>(rather than transport) layers.
>
>>>>But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise sage who clearly
>>>>talks to people who have other ideas.
>>>
>>>A developer who unfortunately doesn't see the full picture.
>>
>>I see the technical picture clearly, not the hand waving wafflefest you have
>>a habit of indulging in.
>
>When I see him next, I'll tell Tim B-L what you think about his
>contributions.

Will you be heckling from the back row again?

On Fri, 27 May 2022 15:50:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:22:31 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Fri, 27 May 2022 10:37:02 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>It means I've worked in IT for the majority of my career, and on the
>>>
>>>Snap.
>>
>>I do not believe that to be true.
>
>Believe what you bloody like pal, makes no odds to me. Apart from a 1 year
>stint as an installations engineer I've been in dev in various roles ever since.
>
>>>So you're a web monkey.
>>
>>If you include being the head of UK technical support for a major ISP,
>
>IOW you kept an eye on the people on the phones.

No, I managed a department of people providing high-level technical
support to corporate customers - that is, providing support to people
who were themselves IT professionals and expected us to be up to that
standard when offering support.

>>working on the development of ecommerce facilities for a multinational
>
>What does "working on" translate to?

In this case, mostly developing the back-end infrastructure it ran on.

>>retailer, working as a systems administrator for a different ISP,
>>running the Internet side of a radio station, and now running my own
>>online publishing business as being a "web monkey" then yes, that might
>>possibly be true. I do write HTML, CSS and Javascript, of course, but
>>most of my work is on the back end.
>
>And how does any of this qualify you any more than me to pontificate on what
>the web is or isn't?

Anybody can pontificate. No qualifications are needed. But given that I
do understand what the web is, and you not only don't understand, but
don't want to understand - even refusing to read the technical documents
written by the web's creators - I thought that illustrating my
experience might be useful to onlookers.

>>>Network programming - the proper kind using the sockets API including TCP,UDP
>>>and raw for ethernet frames - in C/C++ is one of my specialities and one of
>>>the systems I wrote connected a major US bank to the LSE so I suspect I have
>>>a better idea of networks than someone who had to worry whether to use the
>>>blink tag.
>>
>>Your description of both the web and your own experience appears to be
>>somewhat dated. Maybe you're just forgetting it.
>
>Dated? You do realise that underneath all the fluffy scripting languages
>and pretty GUIs is still the same software technology as 30 years ago, just
>running a thousand times faster. Someone has to program it and write the
>libraries.

Which particular libraries have you written?

Mark

In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 27 May 2022 15:31:29 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6q9pp$1dch$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:39:53 on Fri, 27 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Fri, 27 May 2022 07:13:46 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t6o92l$um7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:15:17 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything other than a
>>>>network
>>>>>bound together by HTTP.
>>>>
>>>>You should get out more. One of the nice things about working in what's
>>>>known as the I* community [IETF, IANA, ICANN, ISOC, IXP, rIr and nIc -
>>>>will do as a shortlist], is you get to meet the people who devised and
>>>>now run The Internet on behalf of ISPs and their customers.
>>>
>>>I worked with Roger Scantlebury for a while in the 90s. Google him.
>>
>>Looks like a useful chap, but maybe not quite so involved in the content
>>(rather than transport) layers.
>>
>>>>>But what do I know, I'm only a developer, not a wise sage who clearly
>>>>>talks to people who have other ideas.
>>>>
>>>>A developer who unfortunately doesn't see the full picture.
>>>
>>>I see the technical picture clearly, not the hand waving wafflefest you have
>>>a habit of indulging in.
>>
>>When I see him next, I'll tell Tim B-L what you think about his
>>contributions.
>
>Will you be heckling from the back row again?

Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?

(FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 27 May 2022 17:35:19 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 27 May 2022 15:50:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>IOW you kept an eye on the people on the phones.
>
>No, I managed a department of people providing high-level technical
>support to corporate customers - that is, providing support to people
>who were themselves IT professionals and expected us to be up to that
>standard when offering support.

Any idiot can be a manager. The number of times in the past I had a manager
who didn't have a bloody clue about development or in one case even how
computers worked, I've lost count of.

>>>working on the development of ecommerce facilities for a multinational
>>
>>What does "working on" translate to?
>
>In this case, mostly developing the back-end infrastructure it ran on.

Is that a managers definition of developing - ie you did the time breakdown,
assigned tasks and chased people, then metaphorically shuffled a lot of paper
until the delivery date pretending you were making a contribution?

>>And how does any of this qualify you any more than me to pontificate on what
>>the web is or isn't?
>
>Anybody can pontificate. No qualifications are needed. But given that I
>do understand what the web is, and you not only don't understand, but

No, you think you understand what it is.

>don't want to understand - even refusing to read the technical documents
>written by the web's creators - I thought that illustrating my
>experience might be useful to onlookers.

Definitions change. The web is a network of HTTP connected servers that
utilise the internet infrastructure. End.

>>Dated? You do realise that underneath all the fluffy scripting languages
>>and pretty GUIs is still the same software technology as 30 years ago, just
>>running a thousand times faster. Someone has to program it and write the
>>libraries.
>
>Which particular libraries have you written?

None you'd have heard of because they were all written for employers. What
low level libraries have you even heard of?

On Fri, 27 May 2022 19:11:38 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>Will you be heckling from the back row again?
>
>Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?
>
>(FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
> and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
> party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).

LOL! You do so love to namedrop and make out you're some kind of social
climber :)

On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:22:19 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 27 May 2022 17:35:19 +0100
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Fri, 27 May 2022 15:50:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>IOW you kept an eye on the people on the phones.
>>
>>No, I managed a department of people providing high-level technical
>>support to corporate customers - that is, providing support to people
>>who were themselves IT professionals and expected us to be up to that
>>standard when offering support.
>
>Any idiot can be a manager. The number of times in the past I had a manager
>who didn't have a bloody clue about development or in one case even how
>computers worked, I've lost count of.

There are, of course, some incompetant managers. But it is, nonetheless,
an important skill. Most of the managers I've worked for, or with,
understood their field. If you repeatedly found yourself working for
people who disagreed with your assessment of the work, then maybe, just
maybe, it isn't the managers who were getting it wrong.

>>>>working on the development of ecommerce facilities for a multinational
>>>
>>>What does "working on" translate to?
>>
>>In this case, mostly developing the back-end infrastructure it ran on.
>
>Is that a managers definition of developing - ie you did the time breakdown,
>assigned tasks and chased people, then metaphorically shuffled a lot of paper
>until the delivery date pretending you were making a contribution?

In that particular case it was mostly programming and database
administration.

>>don't want to understand - even refusing to read the technical documents
>>written by the web's creators - I thought that illustrating my
>>experience might be useful to onlookers.
>
>Definitions change. The web is a network of HTTP connected servers that
>utilise the internet infrastructure. End.

These days, yes, it's almost exclusively HTTP. It didn't used to be, as
you admit. And maybe it will change again when someone comes up with a
different protocol that does a particular task better than HTTP. That's
the beauty of the web, it isn't tied down to any one protocol.

Mark

On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:26:09 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 27 May 2022 19:11:38 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Will you be heckling from the back row again?
>>
>>Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?
>>
>>(FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
>> and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
>> party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).
>
>LOL! You do so love to namedrop and make out you're some kind of social
>climber :)

While I do, regularly, disagree with Roland over many things, I would
not make the mistake of questioning his experience and credentials.
After all, there aren't that many contibutors to this newsgroup who've
had a computer game character named after them :-)

Mark

On 28/05/2022 11:25, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:26:09 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 19:11:38 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> Will you be heckling from the back row again?
>>>
>>> Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?
>>>
>>> (FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
>>> and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
>>> party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).
>>
>> LOL! You do so love to namedrop and make out you're some kind of social
>> climber :)
>
> While I do, regularly, disagree with Roland over many things, I would
> not make the mistake of questioning his experience and credentials.
> After all, there aren't that many contibutors to this newsgroup who've
> had a computer game character named after them :-)
>

Or a glove puppet.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 28 May 2022 11:22:09 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:22:19 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>Any idiot can be a manager. The number of times in the past I had a manager
>>who didn't have a bloody clue about development or in one case even how
>>computers worked, I've lost count of.
>
>There are, of course, some incompetant managers. But it is, nonetheless,
>an important skill. Most of the managers I've worked for, or with,
>understood their field. If you repeatedly found yourself working for
>people who disagreed with your assessment of the work, then maybe, just
>maybe, it isn't the managers who were getting it wrong.

Unlikely. I'm a contractor, I've worked at more companies that most people
in my career so far and seen a lot of managers at work. Some are fine, some
are total idiots. Either way , its not a hard job though I conceed rather
dull. The endless meetings alone listening to egotists puffing themselves up
put me off from ever doing it again.

>These days, yes, it's almost exclusively HTTP. It didn't used to be, as
>you admit.

Where did I say that?

>different protocol that does a particular task better than HTTP. That's
>the beauty of the web, it isn't tied down to any one protocol.

Well it is because other protocols don't do what HTTP does. A new one would
need to have at least the same functionality.

In message <t6t81s$vct$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:28:28 on Sat, 28 May
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 28/05/2022 11:25, Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:26:09 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 19:11:38 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> Will you be heckling from the back row again?
>>>>
>>>> Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?
>>>>
>>>> (FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
>>>> and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
>>>> party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).
>>>
>>> LOL! You do so love to namedrop and make out you're some kind of social
>>> climber :)

If I wanted to name-drop we'd be here all day. But I already explained
why I've met so many well-known people, it is simply a result of working
in a setting where they were all around. And almost always very relieved
to have someone to chat to who didn't have an ulterior motive.

However, you started off this theme by saying:

"I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything
other than a network bound together by HTTP."

So I'm just mentioning one of several hundred who *did* think the Web is
more than just HTTP.

>> While I do, regularly, disagree with Roland over many things, I
>>would not make the mistake of questioning his experience and
>>credentials. After all, there aren't that many contibutors to this
>>newsgroup who've had a computer game character named after them :-)
>
>Or a glove puppet.

That wasn't named after me, but the later games character was.

ObRail: did you know Roland Rat lived at Kings Cross Station?
--
Roland Perry

Am 27.05.2022 um 17:42 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 13:12:13 +0200
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>> In a different context: "neuroscientists are not philosophers". A brain
>> would not fucntion without the connections but understanding the
>> connections gives you little ideas on the emergent phenomena like
>> "theory of mind".
>
> So what emergent properties does the cloud or the web have then?

Commoditizing IT. With AWS even a small startup company can afford High
Availability services. The startup company does not have to pay
millions up front because one day they might gain 1 million concurrent
users.

Cloud servers enabled a REST-ful programming paradigm, without which 90%
of our internet-enabled mobile phone apps would not be feasible.
Apps like Strava, Runtastic, waze (even apple "find my keys") are only
possible due to cheap cloud servers, promising the end user quick Ping
times all voer the world at an affordable price (yes Apple, Google and
Adidas could afford such services in the year 2020 but not inventors of
the prototype versions of 2015).

On 28/05/2022 16:22, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t6t81s$vct$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:28:28 on Sat, 28 May
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 28/05/2022 11:25, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:26:09 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 19:11:38 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Will you be heckling from the back row again?
>>>>>
>>>>> Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?
>>>>>
>>>>> (FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
>>>>> and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
>>>>> party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).
>>>>
>>>> LOL! You do so love to namedrop and make out you're some kind of social
>>>> climber :)
>
> If I wanted to name-drop we'd be here all day. But I already explained
> why I've met so many well-known people, it is simply a result of working
> in a setting where they were all around. And almost always very relieved
> to have someone to chat to who didn't have an ulterior motive.
>
> However, you started off this theme by saying:
>
> "I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything
> other than a network bound together by HTTP."
>
> So I'm just mentioning one of several hundred who *did* think the Web is
> more than just HTTP.
>
>>> While I do, regularly, disagree with Roland over many things, I
>>> would not make the mistake of questioning his experience and
>>> credentials. After all, there aren't that many contibutors to this
>>> newsgroup who've had a computer game character named after them :-)
>>
>> Or a glove puppet.
>
> That wasn't named after me, but the later games character was.
>
> ObRail: did you know Roland Rat lived at Kings Cross Station?

I did, that was why I wondered…

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 28 May 2022 16:22:49 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6t81s$vct$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:28:28 on Sat, 28 May
>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 28/05/2022 11:25, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 09:26:09 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 19:11:38 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6qs2f$5ep$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:51:44 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Will you be heckling from the back row again?
>>>>>
>>>>> Who would I be heckling, and why from the back row?
>>>>>
>>>>> (FAOD the last time I met Tim we were both panellists at a big event,
>>>>> and neither of us heckled the other, and we were both at a cocktail
>>>>> party when we chatted, so you can't mean that).
>>>>
>>>> LOL! You do so love to namedrop and make out you're some kind of social
>>>> climber :)
>
>If I wanted to name-drop we'd be here all day. But I already explained
>why I've met so many well-known people, it is simply a result of working
>in a setting where they were all around. And almost always very relieved
>to have someone to chat to who didn't have an ulterior motive.
>
>However, you started off this theme by saying:
>
> "I've never yet met anyone who thought the web was anything
> other than a network bound together by HTTP."
>
>So I'm just mentioning one of several hundred who *did* think the Web is
>more than just HTTP.

Well when I meet someone like that I'll be sure to let you know.

On Sat, 28 May 2022 18:01:30 +0200
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 27.05.2022 um 17:42 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 13:12:13 +0200
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>>> In a different context: "neuroscientists are not philosophers". A brain
>>> would not fucntion without the connections but understanding the
>>> connections gives you little ideas on the emergent phenomena like
>>> "theory of mind".
>>
>> So what emergent properties does the cloud or the web have then?
>
>Commoditizing IT. With AWS even a small startup company can afford High
>Availability services. The startup company does not have to pay
>millions up front because one day they might gain 1 million concurrent
>users.

Thats not an emergent property, its just business. Its like saying an
emergent property of cars is a taxi.

>Cloud servers enabled a REST-ful programming paradigm, without which 90%

RESTful is yet another IT wheel reinvented and dressed up in fancy clothes.
Stateless systems that used token passing in place of state have been around
since the ark but they're only efficient in certain scenarios, specifically a
system that would require multiple states at once.

>of our internet-enabled mobile phone apps would not be feasible.

Yes they would. Apps are just programs, they have little to do with the web
(steve jobs made sure of that) unless they're written in javascript.

Am 29.05.2022 um 09:44 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Sat, 28 May 2022 18:01:30 +0200
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 27.05.2022 um 17:42 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 13:12:13 +0200
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>>> In a different context: "neuroscientists are not philosophers". A brain
>>>> would not fucntion without the connections but understanding the
>>>> connections gives you little ideas on the emergent phenomena like
>>>> "theory of mind".
>>>
>>> So what emergent properties does the cloud or the web have then?
>>
>> Commoditizing IT. With AWS even a small startup company can afford High
>> Availability services. The startup company does not have to pay
>> millions up front because one day they might gain 1 million concurrent
>> users.
>
> Thats not an emergent property, its just business. Its like saying an
> emergent property of cars is a taxi.
>
>> Cloud servers enabled a REST-ful programming paradigm, without which 90%
>
> RESTful is yet another IT wheel reinvented and dressed up in fancy clothes.
> Stateless systems that used token passing in place of state have been around
> since the ark but they're only efficient in certain scenarios, specifically a
> system that would require multiple states at once.
>
>> of our internet-enabled mobile phone apps would not be feasible.
>
> Yes they would. Apps are just programs, they have little to do with the web
> (steve jobs made sure of that) unless they're written in javascript.

As I said: to a neuroscientist, thinking is just some impulses on
neurons, they are unable so see the higher abstraction layers.

On Mon, 30 May 2022 10:15:53 +0200
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 29.05.2022 um 09:44 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> Yes they would. Apps are just programs, they have little to do with the web
>> (steve jobs made sure of that) unless they're written in javascript.
>
>As I said: to a neuroscientist, thinking is just some impulses on
>neurons, they are unable so see the higher abstraction layers.

Well you believe what you like.