Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>
> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
> **** station"
>
> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>
>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>
>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>
>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>
>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>
>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>
> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
> the eastern end of Farringdon.

Interesting snippet:

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/building-the-elizabeth-line-in-photos-54622/

The Farringdon station reaches almost to the Barbican tube station, but in
the end, they decided not the link the two. However, there was a need
during construction for a shaft to be dug down, so afterwards, they put in
a lift. It’s only on the westbound platform on the Barbican and will not
appear on a map, but it’s there for you to say you’ve used it at least
once.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 09:46:30 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6v7q3$b0c$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:36:35 on Sun, 29 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>Fair point. Which rather brings me back to my point about the card being dumb
>>and the gateline doing all the work. One minute the card is so technically
>>constrained it can only use 4 bits for zones, next you and roland are claiming
>
>>its doing all the calculations on its own. Something isn't right there.
>
>It's doing all the calculations, limited to a maximum of 15 zones. Got
>it?

So it can only spare 4 bits for location yet has enough left over to do
fairly sophisticated calculations and/or store lookup tables. Ok.

On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others were for)
>>so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>
>I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>stopped waiting for me outside.

So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jmq69h5ep6spotckso6h9m8jhm9c62lgos@4ax.com>, at 13:46:09 on
> Sun, 29 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Haven't we now narrowed this mountain down to a molehill being a subset
>>> of passengers using the [under the surface rather that street-level]
>>> flow from Liz to northbound Thameslink, and I've posted a detailed
>>> analysis of how few people actually need such validators.
>>
>> Yes, that's probably why TfL didn't think of them.
>
> I'd be surprised if they didn't think about them (just like I expect
> whoever has ultimate responsibility for the furniture on the StP
> Thameslink platforms thought about providing validators for people to
> hop off a northbound train to "touch out" the PAYG phase of their trip
> to London and revert to paper "London Terminals" ticket for the rest,
> and hop back on.
>
> But neither set of "thinkers" decided it was worth the candle.

TfL has immediately agreed to install them.

> Maybe we
> should get a newspaper campaign going to have them added at StP as well
> as Farringdon?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>
> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
> **** station"
>
> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>
>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>
>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>
>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>
>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>
>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
> a
> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
> the eastern end of Farringdon.

'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-72177720299244348/>

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-72177720299244348/lightbox/>

On 27/05/2022 00:57, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>> Barbican.
>>>
>>> They're nearby.
>>>
>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>
>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>
>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>
>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>
> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>
>> I've used the Barbican
>> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
>> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
>> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .
>
> Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?
>

It's interesting that LUL Barbican and Farringdon each have a transfer
to the same station, as do Moorgate and Liverpool Street.

How many other metros in the world have this feature, I wonder?

NO OSIs!

On 28/05/2022 14:23, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 18:39:32 +0100, John <john.geneal@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>>>
>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz entrances
>>>> are two minutes walk apart.
>>>
>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>> like). I can't see "Barbican" on the Liz Line maps.
>>>
>>> But let's not beat this one to death, because the topic is through
>>> ticketing from tube stations to Liz Line. How are you doing with St
>>> Pauls to Reading? And would a ticket machine there sell a through
>>> ticket?
>>
>> The ticket machine at Bermondsey station was willing to sell me a
>> ticket to Reding Staions. I cannot remember the prices.
>
> That suggests that all TfL TVMs will sell such tickets.

I have seen TfL TVMs in central London selling tickets to as far out as
Tring.

On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>> of other
>>>>
>>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>
>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>> Oh sure,
>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>>
>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>
>> "all", "it" ...?
>
> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>
>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>> walk in the park.
>>
>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>
> Says who?
>

All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.

On 29/05/2022 22:39, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card!  Oyster, with its hard-coded zone
>>>>>>> and logic
>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>> of other
>>>>>
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>
>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a
>>>> couple of
>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>> Oh sure,
>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took
>>>> god knows
>>>
>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs
>>>> entering a
>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>
>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>
>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>
>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can
>>>> persuade
>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster
>>>> should be a
>>>> walk in the park.
>>>
>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>
>> Says who?
>>
>
> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.

The latter is also my understandiong. And, as I mentioned earlier in
this thread, the cards is being phased out - in favour of contactless
debit/credit cards or mobile phones.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/05/2022 14:23, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 18:39:32 +0100, John <john.geneal@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz entrances
>>>>> are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>
>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>> like). I can't see "Barbican" on the Liz Line maps.
>>>>
>>>> But let's not beat this one to death, because the topic is through
>>>> ticketing from tube stations to Liz Line. How are you doing with St
>>>> Pauls to Reading? And would a ticket machine there sell a through
>>>> ticket?
>>>
>>> The ticket machine at Bermondsey station was willing to sell me a
>>> ticket to Reding Staions. I cannot remember the prices.
>>
>> That suggests that all TfL TVMs will sell such tickets.
>
> I have seen TfL TVMs in central London selling tickets to as far out as
> Tring.

Thanks, that's what I didn't know.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>> of other
>>>>>
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>
>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>> Oh sure,
>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>>>
>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>
>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>
>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>
>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>>> walk in the park.
>>>
>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>
>> Says who?
>>
>
> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>

But they don't use the same cards as Oyster.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/05/2022 00:57, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>
>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>
>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>
>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>
>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>
>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>
>>> I've used the Barbican
>>> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
>>> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
>>> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .
>>
>> Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?
>>
>
> It's interesting that LUL Barbican and Farringdon each have a transfer
> to the same station, as do Moorgate and Liverpool Street.
>
> How many other metros in the world have this feature, I wonder?

Good question. The Liz stations and trains are unusually long by Metro
standards, and central London Tube ststions are pretty close to each other.

>
> NO OSIs!

I suspect that the two Barbican stations (two minutes walk on the street)
and the two facing Farringdon gate lines will have OSIs. Ditto with the Liz
Hanover Square entrance and Oxford Circus, four minutes walk apart.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>
>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>
>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>
>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>> missed a train home in the process.
>
> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>
> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>
> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
> walk/taxi to their destination.
>
> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
> Pancras.
>
> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>
> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.

… and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.

Lew

On 29/05/2022 23:15, Robin wrote:
> On 29/05/2022 22:39, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card!  Oyster, with its hard-coded zone
>>>>>>>> and logic
>>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>>> of other
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a
>>>>> couple of
>>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will
>>>>> refund.
>>>>> Oh sure,
>>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid.
>>>>> Took god knows
>>>>
>>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs
>>>>> entering a
>>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>>
>>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>>
>>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>>
>>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they
>>>>> can persuade
>>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster
>>>>> should be a
>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>
>>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>>
>>> Says who?
>>>
>>
>> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
>> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>
> The latter is also my understandiong.  And, as I mentioned earlier in
> this thread, the cards is being phased out - in favour of contactless
> debit/credit cards or mobile phones.
>

I imagine same or similar is to eventually happen here.

On 29/05/2022 23:17, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>>> of other
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>>> Oh sure,
>>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>>>>
>>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>>
>>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>>
>>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>>
>>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>
>>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>>
>>> Says who?
>>>
>>
>> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
>> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>>
>
> But they don't use the same cards as Oyster.
>

I thought that the card was simply a token or marker, and that back
office mainframes do the work,

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/05/2022 23:17, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>>>> of other
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>>>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>>>> Oh sure,
>>>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>>>>>
>>>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>>>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>>>
>>>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>>>
>>>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>>>
>>>> Says who?
>>>>
>>>
>>> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
>>> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>>>
>>
>> But they don't use the same cards as Oyster.
>>
>
> I thought that the card was simply a token or marker, and that back
> office mainframes do the work,
>

Not with Oyster v1 cards, which continue to work. The switch to a pure back
office system stalled some years ago, when TfL ran out of interest/funding.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/05/2022 23:17, Recliner wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>>>>> of other
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>>>>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>>>>> Oh sure,
>>>>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>>>>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>>>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Says who?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
>>>> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But they don't use the same cards as Oyster.
>>>
>>
>> I thought that the card was simply a token or marker, and that back
>> office mainframes do the work,
>>
>
> Not with Oyster v1 cards, which continue to work. The switch to a pure back
> office system stalled some years ago, when TfL ran out of interest/funding.
>
>
>

I think the second generation Oyster cards are still stored value devices.
They certainly store information, such as rail cards, that currently can’t
be resolved by the back office.

There’s dome FOI information here

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_generations

In message <t70ovp$opj$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:35:53 on Sun, 29 May
2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>On 27/05/2022 00:57, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>
>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>
>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>
>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>
>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>
>>> I've used the Barbican
>>> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
>>> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
>>> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .

>> Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?
>
>It's interesting that LUL Barbican and Farringdon each have a transfer
>to the same station, as do Moorgate and Liverpool Street.
>
>How many other metros in the world have this feature, I wonder?
>
>NO OSIs!

Bank to Monument; and Waterloo East to both Waterloo and Southwark.

The latest tube map is confusing in the City because (putting aside for
a moment the cost-cut lifts to Barbican Subsurface, although no doubt
one could move to the other platform without leaving the building), it
encourages people wanting to head for the deep tube platforms at
Moorgate to change to the subsurface lines on a hop from Liverpool St.

I also think it's a shame they've never found a way to show the western
entrance and ticket hall for the Bakerloo at Charing Cross, in its
original configuration as a separate "Trafalgar Square" station.

St Pancras International is a bit strange too, showing a different blob
for the MML, but a combined one for Thameslink and Hi-Speed. When all
three are some distance from each other. The separation shown of the
subsurface lines is far more realistic.

The DLR via Bow really needs its own blob at Stratford.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t70tke$c1e$2@gioia.aioe.org>, at 23:55:10 on Sun, 29 May
2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/05/2022 23:17, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone
>>>>>>>>>and logic
>>>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>>>> of other
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for
>>>>>>a couple of
>>>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>>>> Oh sure,
>>>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid.
>>>>>>Took god knows
>>>>>
>>>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10
>>>>>>secs entering a
>>>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>>>
>>>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>>>
>>>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they
>>>>>>can persuade
>>>>>> NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster
>>>>>>should be a
>>>>>> walk in the park.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>>>
>>>> Says who?
>>>
>>> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
>>> Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>>>
>> But they don't use the same cards as Oyster.
>
>I thought that the card was simply a token or marker, and that back
>office mainframes do the work,

Depends what era. I think the tram tickets I was buying about ten years
ago were bearer-bonds, with a chip embedded in the paper. I certainly
never had anything like an "account" with the transport authority.
--
Roland Perry

In message <90de3474-b8fc-be40-e06d-ba6ea3194be8@outlook.com>, at
23:15:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>On 29/05/2022 22:39, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 27/05/2022 12:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>> Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>>>> station such as
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just use a contactless card!  Oyster, with its hard-coded zone
>>>>>>>>and logic
>>>>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>>>> of other
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> also no contactless credit card?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for
>>>>>a couple of
>>>>> hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>>>> Oh sure,
>>>>> if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid.
>>>>>Took god knows
>>>>
>>>>> how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs
>>>>>entering a
>>>>> PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>>>>
>>>> "all", "it" ...?
>>>
>>> Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.
>>>
>>>>> Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they
>>>>>can persuade NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading
>>>>>allowing Oyster should be a walk in the park.
>>>>
>>>> Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>> zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>>
>>> Says who?
>>>
>> All of Netherlands is zoned, and I believe that their equivalent of
>>Oyster is valid throughout the country -- even on NS.
>
>The latter is also my understandiong.

One again a much smaller network than the UK's.

>And, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the cards is being phased
>out - in favour of contactless debit/credit cards or mobile phones.

Although they were hard to buy when I was there (just one ticket office
in the carpark at the front of Centraal Station) an early adopter of
throw away smart tickets - a chip embedded in a slip of paper.
--
Roland Perry

In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>
>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>
>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>
>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>
>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>
>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>
>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>> Pancras.
>>
>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>
>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>
>… and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.

You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
end-to-end)?

How long do you think it will take such people to realise that the route
to take is via the street level? One day, two, three, a month... ?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t703eq$1ib3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:28:27 on Sun, 29 May
2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others were for)
>>>so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>>
>>I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>>stopped waiting for me outside.
>
>So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
>bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?

They won't have the same processing power, that's for sure. As the bus
pads aren't required to do any actual fares calculations, they could
easily be some kind of dedicated mainly-comms chip.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>
>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>
>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>
>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>
>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>
>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>
>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>> Pancras.
>>>
>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>
>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>
>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>
> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
> end-to-end)?
>
> How long do you think it will take such people to realise that the route
> to take is via the street level? One day, two, three, a month... ?

<https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/crossrail-how-elizabeth-line-fares-24059991>

On 2022-05-29 08:42:01 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message
> <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>, at
> 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>
>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>
>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>
>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>> missed a train home in the process.
>
> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>
> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>
> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink
> station gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options,
> or walk/taxi to their destination.
>
> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
> Pancras.

The ticket destintaion "London Thameslink" exists to cover this type of
journey. From the north it is valid as far south as London Bridge and
Elephant and Castle, and from the south is valid as far north as St
Pancras.

Robin

In message <t702a8$voe$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:08:56 on Sun, 29 May
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>
>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>> **** station"
>>
>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not
>>>>>>>>>>two minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's
>>>>>>>>>>actually closer to Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>
>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>
>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>
>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>
>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>>
>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>
>Interesting snippet:
>
>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/building-the-elizabeth-line-in-phot
>os-54622/
>
>The Farringdon station reaches almost to the Barbican tube station, but in
>the end, they decided not the link the two. However, there was a need
>during construction for a shaft to be dug down, so afterwards, they put in
>a lift. It’s only on the westbound platform on the Barbican and will not
>appear on a map, but it’s there for you to say you’ve used it at least
>once.

Yes, that's cropped up previously at least once in the thread. Another
reason to move on... and pick a different feeder station.
--
Roland Perry