On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 17:37:27 -0700 (PDT), WUN <nigel.eaton@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 5:31:20 PM UTC+1, stephen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 7 September 2021 at 17:48:52 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
>
>> >
>> > >The bulk of the painting was done whilst it was still in the frames.
>> > Yes!
>>
>> A bit late to the thread... but I just wondered if anyone knew if other nations
>> encouraged an obsession with 'machines of war' amongst their children in
>> some sort of 'ancestor worship' ritual?
>
>Among major manufacturers of kits (predominantly of military subjects) are:
>
>Revell - Germany
>Hasegawa - Japan
>Tamiya - Japan
>Academy - Korea
>Dragon - China
>Heller - France
>Monogram - USA
>Roden - Ukraine
>Trumpeter - China
>Wingnut Wings - New Zealand
>Zvezda - Russia

Constructo, Spain, though limited to ships, I think, and mostly
civilian.

--

-Pip

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 11:36:44 +0100, Bruce Horrocks
<07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:

>On 18/09/2021 13:59, Ace wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 17:38:18 +0100, Tim <nobody@home.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> My brother, seven years older, and I used to do American Civil War war
>>> games. All the figures on bases of an exact size. All the figures
>>> painted, my bother had colour plate reference books of all the uniforms.
>>> Not just your usual grey for the south and blue for the north. Buttons,
>>> eyes and other tiny bits painted under magnification using a brush with
>>> only three bristles. You get the idea. Of course this was all before
>>> home computers and more than three TV channels.
>>
>> Jeezus, that's just... sad.
>
>What, a hobby that requires patience, practice and skill, and encourages
>a study of history?

Nothing wrong with playing with toy soldiers. But ultimately it's
still just playing with toy soldiers however much time you devote to
accurate recreations of uniforms and badges.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:24:44 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 10/09/2021 11:29, Ace wrote:
>> On 10 Sep 2021 08:09:59 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
>> wrote:

>>> Why is helium painless?
>>>
>>> I would have thought you would still be gripped by panic and fight for
>>> breath?
>>
>> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
>> carbon dioxide. So your breathing will remain pretty much normal,
>> you'll simply fall uncoscious and die.
>>
>
>Spooky, I only read that in a book a couple of days ago.

I was surprised when Sweller posted that, and then even more so by the
number of people that weren't aware of it. All else the whole
subthread was predicated on the fact, even if it hadn't been
explicitly stated.

It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's
something that's quite important to know about and is explained as
part of first-aid training, specifically CPR and defibrillator use,
where a level of understanding of the body chemistry, and how and why
poorly-applied CPR can make it worse.

Having done multiple courses over the last twenty years or more,
including higher-level stuff like workplace defibrillator use and
mountain rescue training, I guess that's why I assumed everyone would
know it.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:24:44 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 10/09/2021 11:29, Ace wrote:
>> On 10 Sep 2021 08:09:59 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
>> wrote:

>>>> This. Helium is painless.
>>>
>>> Why is helium painless?
>>>
>>> I would have thought you would still be gripped by panic and fight for
>>> breath?
>>
>> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
>> carbon dioxide. So your breathing will remain pretty much normal,
>> you'll simply fall uncoscious and die.
>>
>
>Spooky, I only read that in a book a couple of days ago.

I was surprised when Sweller posted tha e question, and then even more
so by the number of people that weren't aware of it. All else apart
the whole subthread was predicated on the fact, even if it hadn't been
explicitly stated.

It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's
something that's quite important to know about and is explained as
part of first-aid training, specifically CPR, where a level of
understanding of the body chemistry, and how and why poorly-applied
CPR can sometimes make things worse than none at all.

Having done a shedload of courses over the last twenty years or more,
including higher-level stuff like workplace defibrillator use and
mountain rescue training, I guess that's why I assumed everyone would
know it.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 19/09/2021 13:38, Ace wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:24:44 +0100, YTC#1
> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 10/09/2021 11:29, Ace wrote:
>>> On 10 Sep 2021 08:09:59 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>>> This. Helium is painless.
>>>>
>>>> Why is helium painless?
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought you would still be gripped by panic and fight for
>>>> breath?
>>>
>>> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
>>> carbon dioxide. So your breathing will remain pretty much normal,
>>> you'll simply fall uncoscious and die.
>>>
>>
>> Spooky, I only read that in a book a couple of days ago.
>
> I was surprised when Sweller posted tha e question, and then even more
> so by the number of people that weren't aware of it. All else apart
> the whole subthread was predicated on the fact, even if it hadn't been
> explicitly stated.
>
> It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
> common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's

I assume it will be a diving common knowledge, but never heard it
brought before. You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release
training.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:38:35 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 19/09/2021 13:38, Ace wrote:

>> It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
>> common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's
>
>I assume it will be a diving common knowledge,

I'm not sure about that. Not sure that it would really be that
relevant, TBH, and certainly don't remember anything along those lines
in my PADI training.

>You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release training.

Mebbe, yeah, but again, I don't recall anything much other than "If
the siren's screaming and the lights are flashing get the fuck out of
there ASAP".

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 19/09/2021 14:59, Ace wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:38:35 +0100, YTC#1
> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 19/09/2021 13:38, Ace wrote:
>
>>> It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
>>> common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's
>>
>> I assume it will be a diving common knowledge,
>
> I'm not sure about that. Not sure that it would really be that
> relevant, TBH, and certainly don't remember anything along those lines
> in my PADI training.

I just thought they may have explained it along with the mix in the tanks.
>
>> You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release training.
>
> Mebbe, yeah, but again, I don't recall anything much other than "If
> the siren's screaming and the lights are flashing get the fuck out of
> there ASAP".

Yep, that is all I have ever been told.
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On 9/19/2021 5:38 AM, Ace wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:24:44 +0100, YTC#1
> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 10/09/2021 11:29, Ace wrote:
>>> On 10 Sep 2021 08:09:59 GMT, "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>>> This. Helium is painless.
>>>>
>>>> Why is helium painless?
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought you would still be gripped by panic and fight for
>>>> breath?
>>>
>>> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
>>> carbon dioxide. So your breathing will remain pretty much normal,
>>> you'll simply fall uncoscious and die.
>>>
>>
>> Spooky, I only read that in a book a couple of days ago.
>
> I was surprised when Sweller posted tha e question, and then even more
> so by the number of people that weren't aware of it. All else apart
> the whole subthread was predicated on the fact, even if it hadn't been
> explicitly stated.
>
> It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
> common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's
> something that's quite important to know about and is explained as
> part of first-aid training, specifically CPR, where a level of
> understanding of the body chemistry, and how and why poorly-applied
> CPR can sometimes make things worse than none at all.
>
> Having done a shedload of courses over the last twenty years or more,
> including higher-level stuff like workplace defibrillator use and
> mountain rescue training, I guess that's why I assumed everyone would
> know it.
>
I learned CPR in Boy Scouts and high school, possibly one class since
then, but it's been at least 40 years since. Never anything about the
chemistry. The helium for suicide was just word of mouth.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

Ace wrote:

> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
> carbon dioxide.

So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't humane?

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 19:26:28 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Ace wrote:
>
>> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
>> carbon dioxide.
>
>So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't humane?

If they really do that, then probably not.

--

-Pip

Pipl wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't humane?
>
> If they really do that, then probably not.

We're being told that they do do that, hence the looming meat shortage
due to CO2 shortage

However the TV/radio news also says that the CO2 shortage is due to
ammonium nitrate production being shutdown, due to expensive gas prices,
but all the AN production processes that wikip lists are either CO2
neutral or CO2 negative, what gives?

On 19/09/2021 20:12, Andy Burns wrote:
> However the TV/radio news also says that the CO2 shortage is due to
> ammonium nitrate production being shutdown, due to expensive gas prices,
> but all the AN production processes that wikip lists are either CO2
> neutral or CO2 negative, what gives?

It may be the effects on prices making gas worth transporting in liquid
form, in the past energetically there was a route to ammonium nitrate
from CH4 and nitrogen from the air so otherwise stranded or uneconomic
gas could be used rather than flared off.

Traditionally ammonium nitrate was made at hydro electric plants as the
electricity was cheap.

BTW has anybody stuck their head over a brewing vat and sniffed, it is
painful.

Wandered a bit far from the original topic, no disrespect intended

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in news:iqpgcbFq1piU1
@mid.individual.net:

> Pipl wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't humane?
>>
>> If they really do that, then probably not.
>
> We're being told that they do do that, hence the looming meat shortage
> due to CO2 shortage
>
> However the TV/radio news also says that the CO2 shortage is due to
> ammonium nitrate production being shutdown, due to expensive gas prices,
> but all the AN production processes that wikip lists are either CO2
> neutral or CO2 negative, what gives?
>
>

you are only looking at the final stage - to make ammonium nitrate you need
a source of ammonia. This is made via the Haber Process
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process#Sources_of_hydrogen which needs
a source of hydrogen. Methane has 4 hydrogen atoms which are harvested via
steam reforming. This leaves a spare carbon atom which is oxydised to make
the CO2 by product.

AJH <news@loampitsfarm.co.uk> wrote in
news:iqpm5vFr546U1@mid.individual.net:

> On 19/09/2021 20:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>> However the TV/radio news also says that the CO2 shortage is due to
>> ammonium nitrate production being shutdown, due to expensive gas
>> prices, but all the AN production processes that wikip lists are
>> either CO2 neutral or CO2 negative, what gives?
>
> It may be the effects on prices making gas worth transporting in
> liquid form, in the past energetically there was a route to ammonium
> nitrate from CH4 and nitrogen from the air so otherwise stranded or
> uneconomic gas could be used rather than flared off.
>
> Traditionally ammonium nitrate was made at hydro electric plants as
> the electricity was cheap.
>
> BTW has anybody stuck their head over a brewing vat and sniffed, it is
> painful.
>

one does wonder why all of the CO2 made during fermentation of beer and
bread is not harvested

> Wandered a bit far from the original topic, no disrespect intended

NAHAY?

On 19/09/2021 21:59 Ace penned these words:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:38:35 +0100, YTC#1
> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 19/09/2021 13:38, Ace wrote:
>
>>> It's one of those "common knowledge" things that apparently isn't so
>>> common at all. Dunno where and when I first learned it, but it's
>>
>> I assume it will be a diving common knowledge,
>
> I'm not sure about that. Not sure that it would really be that
> relevant, TBH, and certainly don't remember anything along those lines
> in my PADI training.

It's fairly irrelevant for novice level diving on open circuit, other than
people getting headaches through skip breathing and upping their CO2 retentions.
Closed circuit rebreathers OTOH it is of vital importance.

>
>> You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release training.
>
> Mebbe, yeah, but again, I don't recall anything much other than "If
> the siren's screaming and the lights are flashing get the fuck out of
> there ASAP".

That was pretty much our training. I maybe misremembering that there was a brief
period you could cancel from the panel in the event of a false alarm but once
that time had passed running away was necessary.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

wessie wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> the TV/radio news also says that the CO2 shortage is due to
>> ammonium nitrate production being shutdown, due to expensive gas prices,
>> but all the AN production processes that wikip lists are either CO2
>> neutral or CO2 negative, what gives?
>
> you are only looking at the final stage - to make ammonium nitrate you need
> a source of ammonia. This is made via the Haber Process
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process#Sources_of_hydrogen which needs
> a source of hydrogen. Methane has 4 hydrogen atoms which are harvested via
> steam reforming. This leaves a spare carbon atom which is oxydised to make
> the CO2 by product.

makes sense ...

Ace wrote:

> >> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but
> excess >> carbon dioxide. So your breathing will remain pretty much
> normal, >> you'll simply fall uncoscious and die.

> I was surprised when Sweller posted tha e question, and then even more
> so by the number of people that weren't aware of it. All else apart
> the whole subthread was predicated on the fact, even if it hadn't been
> explicitly stated.

I was slightly surprised it was a thing I didn't know (although I felt
better that quite a few others didn't know it either).

For some years I've worked in a dangerous and highly regulated working
environment with plenty of opportunities to kill yourself and set
things on fire.

Which twenty five odd years ago made the organisation quite keen on
training and activities to avoid this - particularly fire fighting [1]
and first aid [2].

I've done some workplace CPR training, been exposed to high voltages,
fire supression systems, really very unpleasant dangerous goods and the
suffocation thing has never been something I knew.

[1] This was great. Most big depots had areas to practice putting out
fires - and importantly try to put out fires with the wrong
extinguishers to see what happens.

[2] This has been very useful in real life - fortunately never had to
use the skills at work but, sadly, had to use them outside.

--
Simon

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:38:35 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release
>training.

It was, at least when I was working in those environments x years ago.
Nowadays IT staff must be ten a penny, cheaper to replace than train.

--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

On 20/09/2021 08:43, Pete wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:38:35 +0100, YTC#1
> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release
>> training.
>
> It was, at least when I was working in those environments x years ago.
> Nowadays IT staff must be ten a penny, cheaper to replace than train.
>

I've worked in datacentres since 1983. It has never been mentioned. It
was always just "get the fuck out".

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
https://the-ytc1-shed.blogspot.com/ Deprected(http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/)
There *is* an alternative! https://www.libreoffice.org/

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:30:09 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>one does wonder why all of the CO2 made during fermentation of beer and
>bread is not harvested

I was interested enough to look up how much CO2 we individually
produce when breathing - seems it's of the order of 1 kg per day.
Given an approximate global population of 7 billion this equates to a
significant fraction (maybe 7%) of the fossil fuel production.
--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:51:30 +0100, YTC#1
<bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:

>On 20/09/2021 08:43, Pete wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:38:35 +0100, YTC#1
>> <bdporter@ytc1-removespam.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> You'd think it would be part of datacentre gas release
>>> training.
>>
>> It was, at least when I was working in those environments x years ago.
>> Nowadays IT staff must be ten a penny, cheaper to replace than train.
>>
>
>I've worked in datacentres since 1983. It has never been mentioned. It
>was always just "get the fuck out".

That was the primary message, but I do recall being told the 'why' as
well. Also, working in bio research labs gives you a healthy respect
for the environment, especially when we were using hydrogen cyanide
gas or even worse, hydrogen sulphide - when you stop smelling that you
are probably as good as dead.
--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

On 19/09/2021 23:30, wessie wrote:
> one does wonder why all of the CO2 made during fermentation of beer and
> bread is not harvested

It is the distillers company were a big supplier of CO2.

A lady I did some work with used to buy it to make extra hard chalky
pebbles with it and metal oxides in fly ash. Firm called carbon8

On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:59:14 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>On 9/19/2021 5:38 AM, Ace wrote:
>> Having done a shedload of courses over the last twenty years or more,
>> including higher-level stuff like workplace defibrillator use and
>> mountain rescue training, I guess that's why I assumed everyone would
>> know it.
>>
>I learned CPR in Boy Scouts

Yeah, me too. But probably another twenty times since then.

>Never anything about the
>chemistry. The helium for suicide was just word of mouth.

The later CPR/defibrillator courses I attended were internal to the
large pharma co I worked for, taught by in-house medics who were real
specialists in their field. The chemistry stuff was to help explain
why, for instance, it's better not to start CPR if you're not going to
be able to continue it, and also why, if mouth-mouth breathing isn't
possible, chest compressions alons can still be effective, as it's
about getting the CO2 out, rather than getting oxygen in.

Learning the rules is all that's normally taught, but when the target
audience is >50% doctors and scientists they tend to go into the "why"
questions in a kit more detail. Interesting stuff.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 19/09/2021 20:01, Pipl wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2021 19:26:28 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Ace wrote:
>>
>>> No, it's not lack of oxygen that causes you to breath hard, but excess
>>> carbon dioxide.
>>
>> So 'stunning' pigs and chickens in abattoirs with CO2 isn't humane?
>
>
> If they really do that, then probably not.
>
The SO did some googling this morning and found out some of the true
horrors of this process. It seems CO2 is used because it is there as a
by-product of other processes - not because it is humane but because it
is handy. Handier than a stun gun it would seem :-/

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 20/09/2021 09:38, Ace wrote:
> as it's
> about getting the CO2 out, rather than getting oxygen in.

Makes sense as we breathe in 21% oxygen and out 18% oxygen, I'm told in
very traffic congested cities the oxygen content falls lower than 21%
and people keep on breathing