On Sun, 08 Oct 2023 07:28:41 +0100, alan_m wrote:

> Many (most/all) ISPs offer different speed packages on FTTP at different
> prices.
>
> As we will be forced onto the FTTP route within a few years perhaps
> consider swapping over before the rush starts.

I'll look into it. I'm with Plusnet and have a Plusnet landline phone. I
don't know yet if they will be doing digital voice and if so whether I can
keep my number. Openreach says the south east will be losing copper next
spring.

--
TOJ.

The Other John wrote:

> I'm with Plusnet and have a Plusnet landline phone. I don't know yet if
> they will be doing digital voice

They say they won't.

> and if so whether I can keep my number.
> Openreach says the south east will be losing copper next spring.

ceasing voice on copper (by 2025) yes.
ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.

On 08/10/2023 09:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> The Other John wrote:
>
>> my FTTC is currently giving me 70Mbps/20Mbps. The cabinet is less than
>> 100m away
>
> Similar here (79.99/19.99) so the kit is running as fast as it's allowed.
>
No, as fast as it is *able*.
Once you have filled all the frequency bins thats it..

>> and the telephone exchange is about 300m away.
>
> The fibre from your cabinet may well go to a different exchange, the
> distance is not relevant to the speed.
>
Fibre is not terminated at any exchange. It goes to a regional centre .
The whole point 0f fttp is to dump the exchanges, which cost money to
maintain and to rent. FTTC is a stepping stone - voice goes to the
exchange but data does not, VOIP means even voice doesn't.

>> Our road is cabled up for fibre but I don't see the need for higher
>> speeds as it's just me using the net.
> There's Virgin fibre in my street, but I'm not interested in moving over.

TBH i jumped at the chance since ADSL was about 3 engineer visits a year
to solve crackle issues.
Ive not had to contact my ISP since FTTP at all.

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Tthe kit is running as fast as it's allowed.
>
> No, as fast as it is *able*.

openreach caps profile 17a to 80/20, and don't support profile 30a or 35a

> Once you have filled all the frequency bins thats it..

It's hitting an artificial limit, my previous modem estimated how fast
it could go if allowed, I think it was something like 110/30

On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:

> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.

Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.

Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
your house.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sunday, 8 October 2023 at 13:13:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/10/2023 09:17, Andy Burns wrote:
> > The Other John wrote:
> >
> >> my FTTC is currently giving me 70Mbps/20Mbps. The cabinet is less than
> >> 100m away
> >
> > Similar here (79.99/19.99) so the kit is running as fast as it's allowed.
> >
> No, as fast as it is *able*.
> Once you have filled all the frequency bins thats it..
> >> and the telephone exchange is about 300m away.
> >
80Mbit/s is a cap that BT impose. On a short connection (the one I looked at
was about 40m) some modems will indicate that speeds of up over 100Mbit/s
are possible, but not allowed by BT.

John

> > The fibre from your cabinet may well go to a different exchange, the
> > distance is not relevant to the speed.
> >
> Fibre is not terminated at any exchange. It goes to a regional centre .
> The whole point 0f fttp is to dump the exchanges, which cost money to
> maintain and to rent. FTTC is a stepping stone - voice goes to the
> exchange but data does not, VOIP means even voice doesn't.
> >> Our road is cabled up for fibre but I don't see the need for higher
> >> speeds as it's just me using the net.
> > There's Virgin fibre in my street, but I'm not interested in moving over.
> TBH i jumped at the chance since ADSL was about 3 engineer visits a year
> to solve crackle issues.
> Ive not had to contact my ISP since FTTP at all.
>
>
> --
> Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
> more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
> their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
> battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
> that they are dead.
> Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

On 08/10/2023 09:17, Andy Burns wrote:

> There's Virgin fibre in my street, but I'm not interested in moving over.

Along my road I think City Link installed their fibres in the Virgin
ducts. They dug 3 small holes along the pavement and installed the cable
is less than a day. They took a bit longer to install a green cabinet
towards the end of the road. My fibre takes the same route up a pole and
to my premises that the openreach copper took.

I suspect that if Virgin have cable down your street you may already
have, or will soon have, another cable from someone else with the
ability to select FTTP/broadband from a multitude of ISPs.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote:

> I suspect that if Virgin have cable down your street you may already
> have, or will soon have, another cable from someone else with the
> ability to select FTTP/broadband from a multitude of ISPs.

Not seen CityFibre digging any closer than about 4 miles from here.

"Thanks for your interest, we haven’t planned your area at the moment"

On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
> The Other John wrote:
>
>> I'm with Plusnet and have a Plusnet landline phone. I don't know yet
>> if they will be doing digital voice
>
> They say they won't.
>
>> and if so whether I can keep my number. Openreach says the south east
>> will be losing copper next spring.
>
> ceasing voice on copper (by 2025) yes.
> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.

Aren't you muddling the analogue->digital transition with the
copper->fibre one?

--
Max Demian

On 08/10/2023 12:39, The Other John wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Oct 2023 07:28:41 +0100, alan_m wrote:
>
>> Many (most/all) ISPs offer different speed packages on FTTP at different
>> prices.
>>
>> As we will be forced onto the FTTP route within a few years perhaps
>> consider swapping over before the rush starts.
>
> I'll look into it. I'm with Plusnet and have a Plusnet landline phone. I
> don't know yet if they will be doing digital voice and if so whether I can
> keep my number. Openreach says the south east will be losing copper next
> spring.
>

OFCOM now give you 31 days to recover your old number...

https://www.voipfone.co.uk/PB_Porting_Numbers.php

.... but if you try porting first that will cease your broadband...
.... or switch to Zen who will do both....

Dave

On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>
> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>
>
> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>
> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
> your house.

There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
with fibre; and what would be the point?

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> ceasing voice on copper (by 2025) yes.
>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>
> Aren't you muddling the analogue->digital transition with the
> copper->fibre one?

No, analogue voice on copper will cease by 2025; broadband on copper
will continue until "whenever" fibre arrives where you are, but no
specific date. Digital voice is/will be available from some (but not
all) ISPs, though you can always use a 3rd party VoIP supplier.

On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>>
>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>>
>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
>> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
>> your house.
>
> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
> with fibre; and what would be the point?
>
If the exchange this connects to is removed, then its useless for POTs
voice.

If you are talking FTTC internet, then the cabinets that deliver this
need power and backup batteries. Many contain Huawei DSLAMs which BT has
been told to remove.

So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.

Dave

Max Demian wrote:

> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
> with fibre;

So they'll run a fibre into the building a different way ...

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/10/2023 12:42, The Other John wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:20:08 +0000, Peter Able wrote:
>>
>>> Current performance @ 10:00 today (Saturday) 13Mbps / 2Mbps
>>>
>>> [ We could do with some levelling up in the Home Counties ]
>>
>> Well I'm in the Home Counties (Reigate, Surrey) and my FTTC is currently
>> giving me 70Mbps/20Mbps. The cabinet is less than 100m away and the
>> telephone exchange is about 300m away. Our road is cabled up for fibre
>> but I don't see the need for higher speeds as it's just me using the net.
>>
>
> Many (most/all) ISPs offer different speed packages on FTTP at different
> prices.
>
> As we will be forced onto the FTTP route within a few years perhaps
> consider swapping over before the rush starts.

Not convinced by this argument. Those who have already moved to FTTP are
keen early adopters, prepared to pay more for a faster service.

Those folk hanging onto slower FTTC lines that are quite adequate for their
needs have no incentive to move to FTTP. If Open Reach are serious about
ditching the copper network I would have thought that they might “sweeten
the deal” to encourage folk to move.

There is no FTTP package available that won’t cost me more money at
present.

>
> My installation was quite quick (30 minutes) but my ISP (Zen) did f**k
> up at their end but was sorted with a 10 minute telephone conversation
> with their technical helpline.
>
> On the few occasions that I've had to contact Zen technical I always got
> through to someone who knows about the system and can sort the problem
> out immediately. They appear to be able to see the settings on your
> router and can modify (some of) them at their end. In my case with FTTP
> initially they couldn't see my router and I was talked through setting a
> code for City Link fibre after which everything sprang into life on the Net.
>

Now if we had City fibre I would move, but we only have Open Reach fibre
and it’s significantly more expensive for similar packages.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 08/10/2023 16:59, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/10/2023 12:42, The Other John wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:20:08 +0000, Peter Able wrote:
>>>
>>>> Current performance @ 10:00 today (Saturday) 13Mbps / 2Mbps
>>>>
>>>> [ We could do with some levelling up in the Home Counties ]
>>>
>>> Well I'm in the Home Counties (Reigate, Surrey) and my FTTC is currently
>>> giving me 70Mbps/20Mbps. The cabinet is less than 100m away and the
>>> telephone exchange is about 300m away. Our road is cabled up for fibre
>>> but I don't see the need for higher speeds as it's just me using the net.
>>>
>>
>> Many (most/all) ISPs offer different speed packages on FTTP at different
>> prices.
>>
>> As we will be forced onto the FTTP route within a few years perhaps
>> consider swapping over before the rush starts.
>
> Not convinced by this argument. Those who have already moved to FTTP are
> keen early adopters, prepared to pay more for a faster service.
>
> Those folk hanging onto slower FTTC lines that are quite adequate for their
> needs have no incentive to move to FTTP. If Open Reach are serious about
> ditching the copper network I would have thought that they might “sweeten
> the deal” to encourage folk to move.
>
> There is no FTTP package available that won’t cost me more money at
> present.
>
>>
>> My installation was quite quick (30 minutes) but my ISP (Zen) did f**k
>> up at their end but was sorted with a 10 minute telephone conversation
>> with their technical helpline.
>>
>> On the few occasions that I've had to contact Zen technical I always got
>> through to someone who knows about the system and can sort the problem
>> out immediately. They appear to be able to see the settings on your
>> router and can modify (some of) them at their end. In my case with FTTP
>> initially they couldn't see my router and I was talked through setting a
>> code for City Link fibre after which everything sprang into life on the Net.
>>
>
> Now if we had City fibre I would move, but we only have Open Reach fibre
> and it’s significantly more expensive for similar packages.
>
> Tim
>
>

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In message <ufuiuq$361g0$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
<g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
>On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>>>
>>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
>>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>>>
>>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
>>>It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
>>>your house.
>> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
>>embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
>>with fibre; and what would be the point?
>>
>If the exchange this connects to is removed, then its useless for POTs
>voice.
>
>If you are talking FTTC internet, then the cabinets that deliver this
>need power and backup batteries. Many contain Huawei DSLAMs which BT
>has been told to remove.
>
>So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.

Apologies for not keeping up on this!

Our village was an early adopter of ducted connections 1994 or so. As a
consequence fibre has been very slow to arrive.

The 8 properties in our 500m lane did not get ducts so our
telephone/Internet is still overhead copper/aluminium. (13meg down so
not a disaster).

How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?

4g?

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ufuiuq$361g0$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
> <g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
>> On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
>>>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>>>>
>>>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
>>>> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
>>>> your house.
>>> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
>>> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
>>> with fibre; and what would be the point?
>>>
>> If the exchange this connects to is removed, then its useless for POTs
>> voice.
>>
>> If you are talking FTTC internet, then the cabinets that deliver this
>> need power and backup batteries. Many contain Huawei DSLAMs which BT
>> has been told to remove.
>>
>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>
> Apologies for not keeping up on this!
>
> Our village was an early adopter of ducted connections 1994 or so. As a
> consequence fibre has been very slow to arrive.
>
> The 8 properties in our 500m lane did not get ducts so our
> telephone/Internet is still overhead copper/aluminium. (13meg down so
> not a disaster).
>
> How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?
>
> 4g?
>

Theirs no problem putting fibre overhead. Happening all over the country.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>>
>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>>
>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
>> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
>> your house.
>
> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
> with fibre; and what would be the point?
>

I notice that new wooden poles are popping up along some streets
in Worthing where all the services and cables are underground
and there were no poles previously.

I assume this is how they are going to deliver FTTP to individual
houses. Going to annoy to people who like their open-plan,
pole-less estates

On 07/10/2023 10:20, Peter Able wrote:
>
> This field is relatively new to me - so I had to look up CGNAT.  Not
> sure that I've got it right, but this implementation is a Samsung S5 on
> the Vodaphone network acting as a hotspot for up to 10 devices.  So no
> need for IPs all round - but, as you say, no VPN capability.
>
> Since my wife was killed off, it is just me that needs to be supplied.
> As it was, the FTTC speed was a 9Mbps service with loads of contention -
> and no plans for FTTP.  The 4G signal here is typically -108dBm, but it
> seems to be reliable. O2 is about -112dBm.  Three and EE are about
> -120dBM.  Vodaphone is the only of these networks which holds up a 4G
> connection in the house 24/7.  It is a comms ghetto around here  The
> bit-rates - both up and down - are a lot more stable than with FTTC
> where the bit-rate was down to about 2Mbps from 3 to 6pm.
>
> One bit of extra performance data.  A telephone call using the S5
> handset seems to use about 3Mbps of the available bandwidth.
>
> Current performance @ 10:00 today (Saturday)  13Mbps / 2Mbps
>
> [ We could do with some levelling up in the Home Counties ]

9MBPS ADSL isn't a ghetto. Nobody in our village had more than 5 before
they rolled out fibre, and my mum gets less than 1.

Andy
--
And they only rolled out fibre when someone was planning an alternative
scheme which would have resulted in them losing every house in the
village...

On 08/10/2023 19:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> The 8 properties in our  500m lane did not get ducts so our
> telephone/Internet is still overhead copper/aluminium. (13meg down so
> not a disaster).
>
> How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?

Our feed is a small duct (<1cm) slung off the poles with a fibre down it.

Andy

On 08/10/2023 19:52, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <ufuiuq$361g0$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
> <g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
>> On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
>>> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
>>>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>>>>
>>>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
>>>> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
>>>> your house.
>>>  There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
>>> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
>>> with fibre; and what would be the point?
>>>
>> If the exchange this connects to is removed, then its useless for POTs
>> voice.
>>
>> If you are talking FTTC internet, then the cabinets that deliver this
>> need power and backup batteries. Many contain Huawei DSLAMs which BT
>> has been told to remove.
>>
>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>
> Apologies for not keeping up on this!
>
> Our village was an early adopter of ducted connections 1994 or so. As a
> consequence fibre has been very slow to arrive.
>
> The 8 properties in our  500m lane did not get ducts so our
> telephone/Internet is still overhead copper/aluminium. (13meg down so
> not a disaster).
>
> How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?
>

A single fibre to a 16-way splitter. Not a problem.

Dave

> 4g?
>

On 08/10/2023 16:59, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/10/2023 12:42, The Other John wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:20:08 +0000, Peter Able wrote:
>>>
>>>> Current performance @ 10:00 today (Saturday) 13Mbps / 2Mbps
>>>>
>>>> [ We could do with some levelling up in the Home Counties ]
>>>
>>> Well I'm in the Home Counties (Reigate, Surrey) and my FTTC is currently
>>> giving me 70Mbps/20Mbps. The cabinet is less than 100m away and the
>>> telephone exchange is about 300m away. Our road is cabled up for fibre
>>> but I don't see the need for higher speeds as it's just me using the net.
>>>
>>
>> Many (most/all) ISPs offer different speed packages on FTTP at different
>> prices.
>>
>> As we will be forced onto the FTTP route within a few years perhaps
>> consider swapping over before the rush starts.
>
> Not convinced by this argument. Those who have already moved to FTTP are
> keen early adopters, prepared to pay more for a faster service.
>
> Those folk hanging onto slower FTTC lines that are quite adequate for their
> needs have no incentive to move to FTTP. If Open Reach are serious about
> ditching the copper network I would have thought that they might “sweeten
> the deal” to encourage folk to move.
>
> There is no FTTP package available that won’t cost me more money at
> present.
>

I think BT are using a big stick approach. If OpenReach FTTP is
available at your location you can no longer move to another ISP and
retain FTTC.

FTTC is unavailable for new supply (from any ISP).

When your current contract ends you may find the price of FTTC rises to
"un-acceptible levels."

>>
>> My installation was quite quick (30 minutes) but my ISP (Zen) did f**k
>> up at their end but was sorted with a 10 minute telephone conversation
>> with their technical helpline.
>>
>> On the few occasions that I've had to contact Zen technical I always got
>> through to someone who knows about the system and can sort the problem
>> out immediately. They appear to be able to see the settings on your
>> router and can modify (some of) them at their end. In my case with FTTP
>> initially they couldn't see my router and I was talked through setting a
>> code for City Link fibre after which everything sprang into life on the Net.
>>
>
> Now if we had City fibre I would move, but we only have Open Reach fibre
> and it’s significantly more expensive for similar packages.
>

For the duration of your current contract...

> Tim
>
>
Dave

On 08/10/2023 19:52, Tim Lamb wrote:

> How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?
>
> 4g?
>

Friends of mine who live is small rural location of 8 houses have BT
line where the broadband over it is dire. They have BT internet with EE
backup. As recommended by the BT engineer they just use the EE 4g mobile
backup which gives a much better performance than the land line.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

David Wade wrote:

> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.

Eventually yes, I doubt within a decade ...