On Monday, 9 October 2023 at 07:10:14 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> David Wade wrote:
>
> > So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
> Eventually yes, I doubt within a decade ...
I wonder if Strowger knew what the future held?

In article
<1998326083.718486093.769120.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <ufuiuq$361g0$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
> > <g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
> >> On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
> >>> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
> >>>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
> >>>>
> >>>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
> >>>> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
> >>>> your house.
> >>> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
> >>> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
> >>> with fibre; and what would be the point?
> >>>
> >> If the exchange this connects to is removed, then its useless for POTs
> >> voice.
> >>
> >> If you are talking FTTC internet, then the cabinets that deliver this
> >> need power and backup batteries. Many contain Huawei DSLAMs which BT
> >> has been told to remove.
> >>
> >> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
> >
> > Apologies for not keeping up on this!
> >
> > Our village was an early adopter of ducted connections 1994 or so. As a
> > consequence fibre has been very slow to arrive.
> >
> > The 8 properties in our 500m lane did not get ducts so our
> > telephone/Internet is still overhead copper/aluminium. (13meg down so
> > not a disaster).
> >
> > How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?
> >
> > 4g?
> >

> Theirs no problem putting fibre overhead. Happening all over the country.

> Tim
Indeed, My feed is on an overhead cable

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> On 08/10/2023 16:59, Tim+ wrote:
>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 07/10/2023 12:42, The Other John wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 09:20:08 +0000, Peter Able wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Current performance @ 10:00 today (Saturday) 13Mbps / 2Mbps
>>>>>
>>>>> [ We could do with some levelling up in the Home Counties ]
>>>>
>>>> Well I'm in the Home Counties (Reigate, Surrey) and my FTTC is currently
>>>> giving me 70Mbps/20Mbps. The cabinet is less than 100m away and the
>>>> telephone exchange is about 300m away. Our road is cabled up for fibre
>>>> but I don't see the need for higher speeds as it's just me using the net.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Many (most/all) ISPs offer different speed packages on FTTP at different
>>> prices.
>>>
>>> As we will be forced onto the FTTP route within a few years perhaps
>>> consider swapping over before the rush starts.
>>
>> Not convinced by this argument. Those who have already moved to FTTP are
>> keen early adopters, prepared to pay more for a faster service.
>>
>> Those folk hanging onto slower FTTC lines that are quite adequate for their
>> needs have no incentive to move to FTTP. If Open Reach are serious about
>> ditching the copper network I would have thought that they might “sweeten
>> the deal” to encourage folk to move.
>>
>> There is no FTTP package available that won’t cost me more money at
>> present.
>>
>
> I think BT are using a big stick approach. If OpenReach FTTP is
> available at your location you can no longer move to another ISP and
> retain FTTC.
>
> FTTC is unavailable for new supply (from any ISP).
>
> When your current contract ends you may find the price of FTTC rises to
> "un-acceptible levels."

Possibly. Happy to sit tight and employ the “wait and see” strategy.

>
>
>>>
>>> My installation was quite quick (30 minutes) but my ISP (Zen) did f**k
>>> up at their end but was sorted with a 10 minute telephone conversation
>>> with their technical helpline.
>>>
>>> On the few occasions that I've had to contact Zen technical I always got
>>> through to someone who knows about the system and can sort the problem
>>> out immediately. They appear to be able to see the settings on your
>>> router and can modify (some of) them at their end. In my case with FTTP
>>> initially they couldn't see my router and I was talked through setting a
>>> code for City Link fibre after which everything sprang into life on the Net.
>>>
>>
>> Now if we had City fibre I would move, but we only have Open Reach fibre
>> and it’s significantly more expensive for similar packages.
>>
>
> For the duration of your current contract...

There is no end date on my Zen contract though.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/10/2023 09:17, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> There's Virgin fibre in my street, but I'm not interested in moving over.
>
> Along my road I think City Link installed their fibres in the Virgin
> ducts. They dug 3 small holes along the pavement and installed the cable
> is less than a day. They took a bit longer to install a green cabinet
> towards the end of the road. My fibre takes the same route up a pole and
> to my premises that the openreach copper took.
>
> I suspect that if Virgin have cable down your street you may already
> have, or will soon have, another cable from someone else with the
> ability to select FTTP/broadband from a multitude of ISPs.
>

Surprised to hear that. In my home town and up in Glasgow fibre has gone
in new ducts despite the presence on Virgin ducting. (Open Reach and City
Fibre respectively).

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 09/10/2023 07:10, Andy Burns wrote:
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>
> Eventually yes, I doubt within a decade ...
>
>
The BT Target is 2030 and they are aggressively pursuing it. I guess
there may be some copper left in 2030, but how much?

My Exchange, Altrincham, has not been mentioned in any rollout plans I
can find yet in the post codes I tried the only broadband products
available for new supply are FTTP.

So any one moving ISP in the next seven years will end up on FTTP. Any
one installing new services will end up on FTTP. Any one moving house
will end up on FTTP. Ordering a phone line - BT Digital Voice...

The GPON structure allows multiple splitters and up to 20km in length.
Openreach say with active repeaters they can deliver service up to 60km.

Folks are saying why not sweeteers, well I don't think they are needed.
Nearly every one is on a two year fixed deal. I expect these to vanish
on ADSL. As these expire users will find they need to move to FTTP or
face a huge increase in bills.

Dave

On 09/10/2023 09:47, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/10/2023 09:17, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> There's Virgin fibre in my street, but I'm not interested in moving over.
>>
>> Along my road I think City Link installed their fibres in the Virgin
>> ducts. They dug 3 small holes along the pavement and installed the cable
>> is less than a day. They took a bit longer to install a green cabinet
>> towards the end of the road. My fibre takes the same route up a pole and
>> to my premises that the openreach copper took.
>>
>> I suspect that if Virgin have cable down your street you may already
>> have, or will soon have, another cable from someone else with the
>> ability to select FTTP/broadband from a multitude of ISPs.
>>
>
> Surprised to hear that. In my home town and up in Glasgow fibre has gone
> in new ducts despite the presence on Virgin ducting. (Open Reach and City
> Fibre respectively).
>

Not sure when they changed the rules, but the guy who installed my fibre
said that both Virgin and the "challenger" ISPs can use the BT poles and
ducts.

> Tim
>

Dave

On 08/10/2023 13:47, alan_m wrote:
> On 08/10/2023 09:17, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> There's Virgin fibre in my street, but I'm not interested in moving over.
>
> Along my road I think City Link installed their fibres in the Virgin
> ducts. They dug 3 small holes along the pavement and installed the cable
> is less than a day. They took a bit longer to install a green cabinet
> towards the end of the road. My fibre takes the same route up a pole and
> to my premises that the openreach copper took.
>
> I suspect that if Virgin have cable down your street you may already
> have, or will soon have, another cable from someone else with the
> ability to select FTTP/broadband from a multitude of ISPs.
>

Virgin Media ducts (installed by Cable London) everywhere here but
Hyperoptic have stuck to their use of Openreach ducts and poles.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 09/10/2023 09:47, Tim+ wrote:
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now if we had City fibre I would move, but we only have Open Reach fibre
>>> and it’s significantly more expensive for similar packages.
>>>
>>
>> For the duration of your current contract...
>
>
> There is no end date on my Zen contract though.

So its an old contract with a "price fixed for life" contract? If so
they say:-

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From time to time, we do make changes to our customers’ products to
ensure they are getting the most from their Zen connections, but without
asking customers to sign up for a new contract. With this in mind, if
you signed up with our Price for Life, then we will honour this for any
migrations made by Zen.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so definitely worth staying put...

>
> Tim
>
>

Dave

David Wade wrote:

> My Exchange, Altrincham, has not been mentioned in any rollout plans I
> can find yet in the post codes I tried the only broadband products
> available for new supply are FTTP.

Three exchanges where I have a vested interest in broadband are not on
the list at all, along with huge swathes of the map

<https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband>

> So any one moving ISP in the next seven years will end up on FTTP. Any
> one installing new services will end up on FTTP. Any one moving house
> will end up on FTTP.

Just enquired for plusnet at my late parents' house (where I
disconnected FTTC a couple of years ago) and they are offering 68Mbps
FTTC. There is a "local" gigabit altnet on poles in the street.

> Ordering a phone line - BT Digital Voice...

plusnet ... digital voice not offered.

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> Virgin Media ducts (installed by Cable London) everywhere here but
> Hyperoptic have stuck to their use of Openreach ducts and poles.

Virgin ducts are privately owned by Virgin, who don't want anyone else
sharing their infrastructure. Openreach was forced by Ofcom to open up
their infrastructure to competitors, Virgin wasn't.

(The Virgin ducts were installed by 1980s/90s private money, many of
Openreach ones were installed with public money in the nationalised era)

Theo

Theo wrote:

> Openreach was forced by Ofcom to open up their infrastructure to
> competitors, Virgin wasn't.

I watched an altnet "technician" stringing up a fibre to the top of a BT
pole, he raised his cherry picker (no ladder) with no regard to where
the existing drop cables were, they hit his shoulders, he didn't stop,
just carried on going up until they pinged off his arms.

On 09/10/2023 09:51, David Wade wrote:
> On 09/10/2023 07:10, Andy Burns wrote:
>> David Wade wrote:
>>
>>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>>
>> Eventually yes, I doubt within a decade ...
>>
>>
> The BT Target is 2030 and they are aggressively pursuing it. I guess
> there may be some copper left in 2030, but how much?

BT/openreach no longer have the monopoly. There are other players,
possibly cherry picking the larger towns and cities, but I guess that
inte next few years City Link will have cabled much of my town. Virgin
(Telepest/NTL) cabled the same streets decades ago. So, even if
OpenReach don't meet any targets in my area I already have the choice of
Virgin and all the other ISPs offering a FTTP via City Fibre. The ISPs
in turn don't have to offer anything else in my area.

I think my ISP Zen still are still advertising a FTTC, and presumably
copper to the premises, via Openreach infrastructure BUT at the same
price as a same (lower capped) speed service via FTTP.
> Folks are saying why not sweeteers, well I don't think they are needed.
> Nearly every one is on a two year fixed deal. I expect these to vanish
> on ADSL. As these expire users will find they need to move to FTTP or
> face a huge increase in bills.

+1
If still available, the legacy type services will be priced out of the
marketplace. The likelihood is that FTTC/copper will just disappear and
the ISPs will just inform you that your legacy service will terminate at
the end of your contract.

This is already happening with the transition to the digital phone
system. With some ISPs if you have/had a broadband and a landline phone
type contract with them the landline phone part may just disappear into
thin air with no alternative offered by the ISP themselves.

Zen internet offer an extra Digital Voice service at £6/month (incl.
1000 minutes of calls) and their supplied Fritz Box routers have an
inbuilt DECT base station and the also facility to plug in your existing
home phone or DECT base station/answerphone (replacing the BT master
socket).

With Digital Voice and the Fritz Box router I can also configure my
mobile phone to receive or make* calls on my "landline" number as long
as the mobile is in wi-fi range of the router. My landline number was
transferred to digital voice.

*when making a call this way person receiving will get a caller ID of my
landline number (if enabled on the router).

Many people have ditched their landlines phones in favour of mobile so a
loss of the equivalent of a landline phone may not be too much of a problem.

In some areas mobile 4/5G may be a viable option. As I mentioned before,
friends of mine in a rural area with a poor quality land line use the BT
Internet EE mobile backup as their primary source of internet connection.

When FTTC appeared in my area Zen started to market faster speeds on a
higher priced contract. After a few months Zen transferred me over to
their FTTC at my existing contact price. However, this is when they
offered a lifetime guarantee of no price increases as long as you didn't
change the service. They now only offer no price increases during the
initial 12/18/24 month contract. After a 12/18/24 month contract you
are on a rolling 1 month contract which previously counted as no change
in service.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 09/10/2023 10:47, Andy Burns wrote:
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> My Exchange, Altrincham, has not been mentioned in any rollout plans I
>> can find yet in the post codes I tried the only broadband products
>> available for new supply are FTTP.
>
> Three exchanges where I have a vested interest in broadband are not on
> the list at all, along with huge swathes of the map
>
> <https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband>

Hmm. If I put my post code into this page. "We don't have any plans to
build in this exchange"

I have FTTP in my house !

Don't make the mistake that BT/Openreach* are the only players. My FTTP
comes from an ISP that uses the Citylink infrastructure that doesn't use
a BT/Openreach exchange. It seems that my ISP will use whatever fibre
supplier (except Virgin) that has cabled the area (including Openreach
if the have done so)

My ISP also offers Digital Voice.

Pulsenet are BT owned so possibly unlikely to offer are service from a
rival.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote:

> Don't make the mistake that BT/Openreach* are the only players.

Until recently all the other players want their own captive audience.

I realise things are changing with the likes of city fibre, where you
can get service from several ISPs, regardless of whose cable enters your
building.

On 09/10/2023 10:43, David Wade wrote:

>>
>> There is no end date on my Zen contract though.
>
> So its an old contract with a "price fixed for life" contract? If so
> they say:-
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> From time to time, we do make changes to our customers’ products to
> ensure they are getting the most from their Zen connections, but without
> asking customers to sign up for a new contract. With this in mind, if
> you signed up with our Price for Life, then we will honour this for any
> migrations made by Zen.
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> so definitely worth staying put...
>

In your case yes. Zen in the past have honoured this type of contract
and where a transfer instigated by them alone has been required the
price has remained the same. When the time comes you may be transferred
to an equivalent, or better, speed FTTP and your original contract price
stays the same.

I'm not sure what will happen with a landline phone where you pay them
line rental.

Requesting digital voice when analogue goes may trigger a new 12 month
broadband contract at current prices and with no price guarantees
(except during the initial 12 months)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 09/10/2023 12:19, alan_m wrote:
> On 09/10/2023 10:47, Andy Burns wrote:
>> David Wade wrote:
>>
>>> My Exchange, Altrincham, has not been mentioned in any rollout plans
>>> I can find yet in the post codes I tried the only broadband products
>>> available for new supply are FTTP.
>>
>> Three exchanges where I have a vested interest in broadband are not on
>> the list at all, along with huge swathes of the map
>>
>> <https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband>
>
> Hmm. If I put my post code into this page. "We don't have any plans to
> build in this exchange"
>
> I have FTTP in my house !
>
> Don't make the mistake that BT/Openreach* are the only players. My FTTP
> comes from an ISP that uses the Citylink infrastructure that doesn't use
> a BT/Openreach exchange.  It seems that my ISP will use whatever fibre
> supplier (except Virgin) that has cabled the area (including Openreach
> if the have done so)
>
> My ISP also offers Digital Voice.
>
> Pulsenet are BT owned so possibly unlikely to offer are service from a
> rival.
>
>

Never heard of Pulsenet as an ISP...... will have to google for them.....

On 09/10/2023 12:08, alan_m wrote:
> On 09/10/2023 09:51, David Wade wrote:
>> On 09/10/2023 07:10, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> David Wade wrote:
>>>
>>>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>>>
>>> Eventually yes, I doubt within a decade ...
>>>
>>>
>> The BT Target is 2030 and they are aggressively pursuing it. I guess
>> there may be some copper left in 2030, but how much?
>
> BT/openreach no longer have the monopoly.  There are other players,
> possibly cherry picking the larger towns and cities, but I guess that
> inte next few years City Link will have cabled much of my town.

City Link delivery parcels in person..... so have they started
deliveringand collecting data in person?

:-D

On 09/10/2023 09:47, Tim+ wrote:

>
> Surprised to hear that. In my home town and up in Glasgow fibre has gone
> in new ducts despite the presence on Virgin ducting. (Open Reach and City
> Fibre respectively).
>

When I say installed the cable in less than a day I actually meant in a
long road less than a few hours. The CityFibre gang of Eastern
Europeans(?)* spent most of their time sitting in their vans or standing
around holes either smoking or eating.

I believe that the only thing running down the pavement in which they
dug a few small holes was virgin cable (or maybe BT/Openreach cables
between cabinets?). All the other utilities have required the road to
have been dug up

*The banter between workers was not in English

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 09/10/2023 10:40, David Wade wrote:

>
> Not sure when they changed the rules, but the guy who installed my fibre
> said that both Virgin and the "challenger" ISPs can use the BT poles and
> ducts.

My overhead fibre cable from Citylink comes from the same pole as my
previous copper bt/openreach connection. The copper cable was not removed.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 09/10/2023 13:05, alan_m wrote:
> On 09/10/2023 10:40, David Wade wrote:
>
>>
>> Not sure when they changed the rules, but the guy who installed my
>> fibre said that both Virgin and the "challenger" ISPs can use the BT
>> poles and ducts.
>
> My overhead fibre cable from Citylink comes from the same pole as my
> previous copper bt/openreach connection. The copper cable was not removed.
>

Eh? Citylink are a parcels deliveru firm..... have they managed to work
out a way of delivering parcels within glass fibres?

:-D

On 08/10/2023 21:32, Andrew wrote:
>
>
> I notice that new wooden poles are popping up along some streets
> in Worthing where all the services and cables are underground
> and there were no poles previously.
>
> I assume this is how they are going to deliver FTTP to individual
> houses. Going to annoy to people who like their open-plan,
> pole-less estates

I am sure if the people clubbed together to put in ducts, it would all
come in that way.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

SH wrote:

> Eh? Citylink are a parcels deliveru firm.....

used to be, it's a bus company now

<https://www.citylink.co.uk/>

On 09/10/2023 07:10, Andy Burns wrote:
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>
> Eventually yes, I doubt within a decade ...
>
>
I dont.

Well the vast majority of it, anyway.

FTTP is cheaper to provide than copper, and the current high prices
charged are to generate the cash to install yet more.

We've had our roads dug up something rotten in the last few years and
now there is a bloody great scar across the landscape where they are
burying huge pipes. I assume for gas, They are blue.

Oh, blue would make it water.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 09/10/2023 11:47, Theo wrote:
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> Virgin Media ducts (installed by Cable London) everywhere here but
>> Hyperoptic have stuck to their use of Openreach ducts and poles.
>
> Virgin ducts are privately owned by Virgin, who don't want anyone else
> sharing their infrastructure. Openreach was forced by Ofcom to open up
> their infrastructure to competitors, Virgin wasn't.
>
> (The Virgin ducts were installed by 1980s/90s private money, many of
> Openreach ones were installed with public money in the nationalised era)
>

BT is just as private as Virgin. AIUI the underlying difference is that
Ofcom decided BT Openreach has what they call "Significant Market Power"
(like market domination). Plus other providers weren't much interested
in using Virgin's ducts (even in places where BT have none).

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 09/10/2023 08:08, charles wrote:
> In article
> <1998326083.718486093.769120.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ufuiuq$361g0$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
>>> <g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
>>>> On 08/10/2023 16:41, Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 08/10/2023 13:37, alan_m wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08/10/2023 12:59, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ceasing broadband on copper (anytime soon) no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not necessarily - you may not be able to buy or change to new
>>>>>> broadband contract over copper if there is a fibre network in place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Openreach suggest that all their copper networks will cease by 2027.
>>>>>> It's not clear if this includes the bit of copper between a FTTC and
>>>>>> your house.
>>>>> There must be plenty of blocks where the phone lines into flats are
>>>>> embedded in concrete like mine. You wouldn't be able to replace them
>>>>> with fibre; and what would be the point?
>>>>>
>>>> If the exchange this connects to is removed, then its useless for POTs
>>>> voice.
>>>>
>>>> If you are talking FTTC internet, then the cabinets that deliver this
>>>> need power and backup batteries. Many contain Huawei DSLAMs which BT
>>>> has been told to remove.
>>>>
>>>> So the point is to maintain service ALL copper will go.
>>>
>>> Apologies for not keeping up on this!
>>>
>>> Our village was an early adopter of ducted connections 1994 or so. As a
>>> consequence fibre has been very slow to arrive.
>>>
>>> The 8 properties in our 500m lane did not get ducts so our
>>> telephone/Internet is still overhead copper/aluminium. (13meg down so
>>> not a disaster).
>>>
>>> How is this going to be resolved regarding the various deadlines?
>>>
>>> 4g?
>>>
>
>> Theirs no problem putting fibre overhead. Happening all over the country.
>
>> Tim
> Indeed, My feed is on an overhead cable
>

Mine is too for the last 20 feet. I am privileged, I have my own
electricity substation and my own fibre pole!

everything else is underground

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.