On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 01:36:11 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 06/01/2024 13:13, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 06/01/2024 11:24, SteveW wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/2024 09:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could
>>>>>>>>> be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built
>>>>>>>>> to withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and the
>>>>>> remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>>>>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>>>>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>>>>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown.
>>>>> My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about
>>>>> 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big
>>>>> car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current
>>>>> vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15%
>>>>> heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the
>>>>> cars these roads were built for and that 15% could be the straw that
>>>>> breaks the camel's back.
>>>>
>>>> But they are also on much wider and larger tyres, with far greater
>>>> contactr patches.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The concern expressed was about the weight, not the ground pressure.
>>> However, the ground pressure is roughly the pressure in the tyres. My
>>> first car had a tyre pressure of 20psi. The 2.5PI was 24psi and my
>>> current car is 32psi.
>>>
>> My first had 30 psi. Currently its 32.
>> But irrelevant to potholes
>>
>
> A Challenger 2 tank has about 40% of the ground pressure of my car, but
> I doubt it would do my road a lot of good if one ever drove down it.

The damage tanks do to a road has nothing to do with the ground
pressure, the problem is downward facing ridges that are there to
prevent the entire track from sliding over the ground, particularly
when not proceeding in an straight line.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:18:04 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 05/01/2024 12:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:58:22 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>
>>> It seems to be well established that damage to roads is roughly
>>> proportional to the fourth power of the weight of the vehicle.
>> That's one factor. The force of acceleration is another. It creates a
>> shear force surely ?
>
> That will only affect the wearing layer. Potholes are formed by faults
> deeper in the road structure.

Nope, they are caused by the top surface of the road cracking
and letting water into the substructure of the road. Once bits of
the top surface break off to form a hole, that fills with water an
the sub structure gravel gets pumped out by tires going into
the hole and pumping it out with the water.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 04:45:55 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
williamwright addressing Rodent Speed:
"This is getting beyond ridiculous now. You're trying to prove black's
white. You're arguing with someone who has been involved with the issues all
his working life when you clearly have no knowledge at all. I think you're
just being a pillock for the sake of it. You clearly don't actually believe
your own words. You must have a very empty life, and a sad embittered soul.
MID: <j08o6bFeqc1U1@mid.individual.net>

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 04:31:56 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
williamwright addressing Rodent Speed:
"You are an insecure blathermouth with an inferiority complex."
MID: <j08dicFcuptU1@mid.individual.net>

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 04:28:29 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <XnsA97071CF43E3Fadmin127001@85.214.115.223>

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 04:39:20 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the nonagenarian and senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 04:35:52 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Marland revealing the senile sociopath's pathology:
"You have mentioned Alexa in a couple of threads recently, it is not a real
woman you know even if it is the only thing with a female name that stays
around while you talk to it.
Poor sad git who has to resort to Usenet and electronic devices for any
interaction as all real people run a mile to get away from you boring them
to death."
MID: <gfkt3mFe413U1@mid.individual.net>

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 04:22:21 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID: <g4t0jtFrknaU1@mid.individual.net>

On 06/01/2024 17:35, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 00:13:14 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/01/2024 11:24, SteveW wrote:
>>> On 06/01/2024 09:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could
>>>>>>>> be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built
>>>>>>>> to withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>
>>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and the
>>>>> remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>
>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>>>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>>>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>>>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown.
>>>> My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about
>>>> 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big
>>>> car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current
>>>> vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15%
>>>> heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the
>>>> cars these roads were built for and that 15% could be the straw that
>>>> breaks the camel's back.
>>>  But they are also on much wider and larger tyres, with far greater
>>> contactr patches.
>>>
>>
>> The concern expressed was about the weight, not the ground pressure.
>> However, the ground pressure is roughly the pressure in the tyres. My
>> first car had a tyre pressure of 20psi. The 2.5PI was 24psi and my
>> current car is 32psi.
>
> It isnt the tire pressure that cracks the road surface
> and lets the water in and produces the pot hole.

Which was the point I was making about the concern being the weight,
rather than the ground pressure.

>
> And truck tires are much higher pressure than car tires.

--
Colin Bignell

On 06/01/2024 17:22, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 20:42:03 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may be
>>>>>>> due to
>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could be
>>>>>> in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built to
>>>>>> withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>
>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually had
>>>> little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars compare
>>>> for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>  They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and the
>>> remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>
>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown. My
>> first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about 16cwt.
>> By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big car for
>> its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current vehicle is half
>> a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15% heavier that your
>> Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the cars these roads were
>> built for
>
> The roads weren't built for the weight of the current cars at the time.
>
> They were always built for the trucks seen at the time, even
> with unregulated roads because they used to have trucks
> delivering coal

When I lived in London, our coal was delivered by horse and cart.

> and then later heating oil etc and removal
> vans and cranes etc for some building work and trucks
> loaded with bricks etc.
>
>> and that  15% could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
>
> Nope, roads don't work like that.

--
Colin Bignell

On 06/01/2024 17:39, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 01:36:11 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/01/2024 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/01/2024 13:13, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/2024 11:24, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 06/01/2024 09:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads
>>>>>>>>>> could be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are
>>>>>>>>>> already built to withstand the weight of HGVs, but
>>>>>>>>>> unclassified roads, which account for about 60% of the
>>>>>>>>>> network, are not built to the same standards and some could be
>>>>>>>>>> at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should
>>>>>>>>> have little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of
>>>>>>>> the wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and
>>>>>>> the remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those
>>>>>> roads are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes
>>>>>> and residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking
>>>>>> at my own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have
>>>>>> grown. My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed
>>>>>> about 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which
>>>>>> was a big car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My
>>>>>> current vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may
>>>>>> only be 15% heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot
>>>>>> heavier than the cars these roads were built for and that 15%
>>>>>> could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
>>>>>
>>>>> But they are also on much wider and larger tyres, with far greater
>>>>> contactr patches.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The concern expressed was about the weight, not the ground pressure.
>>>> However, the ground pressure is roughly the pressure in the tyres.
>>>> My first car had a tyre pressure of 20psi. The 2.5PI was 24psi and
>>>> my current car is 32psi.
>>>>
>>> My first had 30 psi. Currently its 32.
>>>  But irrelevant to potholes
>>>
>>
>> A Challenger 2 tank has about 40% of the ground pressure of my car,
>> but I doubt it would do my road a lot of good if one ever drove down it.
>
> The damage tanks do to a road has nothing to do with the ground
> pressure, the problem is downward facing ridges that are there to
> prevent the entire track from sliding over the ground, particularly
> when not proceeding in an straight line.

That would only be superficial damage to the wearing surface. The 62
tonnes weight would be affecting the layers below that.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 05:22:49 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 17:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 00:13:14 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/01/2024 11:24, SteveW wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/2024 09:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could
>>>>>>>>> be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built
>>>>>>>>> to withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and the
>>>>>> remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>>>>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>>>>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>>>>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown.
>>>>> My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about
>>>>> 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big
>>>>> car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current
>>>>> vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15%
>>>>> heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the
>>>>> cars these roads were built for and that 15% could be the straw that
>>>>> breaks the camel's back.
>>>> But they are also on much wider and larger tyres, with far greater
>>>> contactr patches.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The concern expressed was about the weight, not the ground pressure.
>>> However, the ground pressure is roughly the pressure in the tyres. My
>>> first car had a tyre pressure of 20psi. The 2.5PI was 24psi and my
>>> current car is 32psi.

>> It isnt the tire pressure that cracks the road surface
>> and lets the water in and produces the pot hole.

> Which was the point I was making about the concern being the weight,
> rather than the ground pressure.

But it isnt the weight of the CAR that cracks the road surface.

>> And truck tires are much higher pressure than car tires.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 05:25:19 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 17:22, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 20:42:03 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may be
>>>>>>>> due to
>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could be
>>>>>>> in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built to
>>>>>>> withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually had
>>>>> little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars compare
>>>>> for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and the
>>>> remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>
>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown. My
>>> first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about 16cwt.
>>> By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big car for
>>> its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current vehicle is half
>>> a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15% heavier that your
>>> Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the cars these roads were
>>> built for

>> The roads weren't built for the weight of the current cars at the time.
>> They were always built for the trucks seen at the time, even
>> with unregulated roads because they used to have trucks
>> delivering coal

> When I lived in London, our coal was delivered by horse and cart.

And the wheels of the cart would have been much more
like to crack the road surface than a truck of that era.

>> and then later heating oil etc and removal
>> vans and cranes etc for some building work and trucks
>> loaded with bricks etc.

>>> and that 15% could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

>> Nope, roads don't work like that.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 05:27:15 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 17:39, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 01:36:11 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/01/2024 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 06/01/2024 13:13, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 06/01/2024 11:24, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/01/2024 09:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads
>>>>>>>>>>> could be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are
>>>>>>>>>>> already built to withstand the weight of HGVs, but
>>>>>>>>>>> unclassified roads, which account for about 60% of the
>>>>>>>>>>> network, are not built to the same standards and some could be
>>>>>>>>>>> at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should
>>>>>>>>>> have little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of
>>>>>>>>> the wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and
>>>>>>>> the remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those
>>>>>>> roads are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes
>>>>>>> and residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking
>>>>>>> at my own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have
>>>>>>> grown. My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed
>>>>>>> about 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which
>>>>>>> was a big car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My
>>>>>>> current vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may
>>>>>>> only be 15% heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot
>>>>>>> heavier than the cars these roads were built for and that 15%
>>>>>>> could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But they are also on much wider and larger tyres, with far greater
>>>>>> contactr patches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The concern expressed was about the weight, not the ground pressure.
>>>>> However, the ground pressure is roughly the pressure in the tyres.
>>>>> My first car had a tyre pressure of 20psi. The 2.5PI was 24psi and
>>>>> my current car is 32psi.
>>>>>
>>>> My first had 30 psi. Currently its 32.
>>>> But irrelevant to potholes
>>>>
>>>
>>> A Challenger 2 tank has about 40% of the ground pressure of my car,
>>> but I doubt it would do my road a lot of good if one ever drove down
>>> it.
>> The damage tanks do to a road has nothing to do with the ground
>> pressure, the problem is downward facing ridges that are there to
>> prevent the entire track from sliding over the ground, particularly
>> when not proceeding in an straight line.

> That would only be superficial damage to the wearing surface.

Nope, its the cracks that let the water that erodes the underlying packed
fine gravel.

> The 62 tonnes weight would be affecting the layers below that.

Nope, that's not what produces pot holes. That fine gravel layer
has already been compacted by the roller before the top waterproof
layer is applied.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 06:16:13 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
R Souls addressing the trolling senile Australian cretin:
"Your opinions are unwelcome and worthless. Now fuck off."
MID: <urs8jh59laqeeb0seg1erij61m383reog5@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 06:17:42 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
R Souls addressing the senile Australian cretin's "personalized" idiotic
spelling:
"Learn to spell, imbecile. And while you're about it learn to mind your
own business as well."
MID: <eohtkhl27bo4osjluadg7q8u9196njn1r9@4ax.com>

On 06/01/2024 17:45, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:18:04 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 05/01/2024 12:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:58:22 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>>
>>>> It seems to be well established that damage to roads is roughly
>>>> proportional to the fourth power of the weight of the vehicle.
>>>  That's one factor. The force of acceleration is another. It creates a
>>> shear force surely ?
>>
>> That will only affect the wearing layer. Potholes are formed by faults
>> deeper in the road structure.
>
> Nope, they are caused by the top surface of the road cracking
> and letting water into the substructure of the road. Once bits of
> the top surface break off to form a hole, that fills with water an
> the sub structure gravel gets pumped out by tires going into
> the hole and pumping it out with the water.

The top layer on British roads is simply there to take wear. The much
thicker layer below that is also waterproof, either asphalt or concrete,
and the compacted MOT* is below that.

* A mix of different materials to Ministry Of Transport specifications.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 06:21:11 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
MrTurnip@down.the.farm about senile Rodent Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 07:19:44 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 17:45, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:18:04 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/01/2024 12:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:58:22 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to be well established that damage to roads is roughly
>>>>> proportional to the fourth power of the weight of the vehicle.
>>>> That's one factor. The force of acceleration is another. It creates a
>>>> shear force surely ?
>>>
>>> That will only affect the wearing layer. Potholes are formed by faults
>>> deeper in the road structure.

>> Nope, they are caused by the top surface of the road cracking
>> and letting water into the substructure of the road. Once bits of
>> the top surface break off to form a hole, that fills with water an
>> the sub structure gravel gets pumped out by tires going into
>> the hole and pumping it out with the water.

> The top layer on British roads is simply there to take wear.

That is just plain wrong. Its actually there to stop water getting
into the underlying packed gravel which is much deeper.

> The much thicker layer below that is also waterproof, either asphalt or
> concrete,

Have fun spelling out how you get a pothole in that.

> and the compacted MOT* is below that.

> * A mix of different materials to Ministry Of Transport specifications.

On 06/01/2024 19:17, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 05:25:19 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/01/2024 17:22, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 20:42:03 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could
>>>>>>>> be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built
>>>>>>>> to withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>  They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and
>>>>> the remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>
>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>>>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>>>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>>>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown.
>>>> My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about
>>>> 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big
>>>> car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current
>>>> vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15%
>>>> heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the
>>>> cars these roads were built for
>
>>>  The roads weren't built for the weight of the current cars at the time.
>>>  They were always built for the trucks seen at the time, even
>>> with unregulated roads because they used to have trucks
>>> delivering coal
>
>> When I lived in London, our coal was delivered by horse and cart.
>
> And the wheels of the cart would have been much more
> like to crack the road surface than a truck of that era.

Both the coal cart and the milk cart had pneumatic tyres. I do recall
seeing a lorry with solid rubber tyres though.

>
>>> and then later heating oil etc and removal
>>> vans and cranes etc for some building work and trucks
>>> loaded with bricks etc.
>
>>>> and that  15% could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
>
>>>  Nope, roads don't work like that.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 07:37:32 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

On 06/01/2024 20:37, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 07:19:44 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/01/2024 17:45, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:18:04 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/01/2024 12:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:58:22 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to be well established that damage to roads is roughly
>>>>>> proportional to the fourth power of the weight of the vehicle.
>>>>>  That's one factor. The force of acceleration is another. It creates a
>>>>> shear force surely ?
>>>>
>>>> That will only affect the wearing layer. Potholes are formed by
>>>> faults deeper in the road structure.
>
>>>  Nope, they are caused by the top surface of the road cracking
>>> and letting water into the substructure of the road. Once bits of
>>> the top surface break off to form a hole, that fills with water an
>>> the sub structure gravel gets pumped out by tires going into
>>> the hole and pumping it out with the water.
>
>> The top layer on British roads is simply there to take wear.
>
> That is just plain wrong. Its actually there to stop water getting
> into the underlying packed gravel which is much deeper.

You must build roads differently in Oz. The wearing layer is only
20-40mm thick and really is there simply to make it easier to resurface
the road.

>
>> The much thicker layer below that is also waterproof, either asphalt
>> or concrete,
>
> Have fun spelling out how you get a pothole in that.

You don't, unless a heavy vehicle damages it.

>
>> and the compacted MOT* is below that.
>
>> * A mix of different materials to Ministry Of Transport specifications.

--
Colin Bignell

On 06 Jan 2024 at 21:54:01 GMT, "Colin Bignell" <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk>
wrote:

>>> When I lived in London, our coal was delivered by horse and cart.
>>
>> And the wheels of the cart would have been much more
>> like to crack the road surface than a truck of that era.
>
> Both the coal cart and the milk cart had pneumatic tyres. I do recall
> seeing a lorry with solid rubber tyres though.

What about Dobbin? Pneumatic or solid?

--
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 08:54:01 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 19:17, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 05:25:19 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/01/2024 17:22, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 20:42:03 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 06/01/2024 01:15, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 22:27, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 21:10, SteveW wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 14:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I recently read a suggestion that some potholes in the UK may
>>>>>>>>>> be due to
>>>>>>>>>> the action of EV acceleration.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If true it's a good reason to tax them more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've not found any reports that support that, but have seen a
>>>>>>>>> claim by the suppliers of asphalt that unclassified roads could
>>>>>>>>> be in danger from the weight. Classified roads are already built
>>>>>>>>> to withstand the weight of HGVs, but unclassified roads, which
>>>>>>>>> account for about 60% of the network, are not built to the same
>>>>>>>>> standards and some could be at risk from the weight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or MG4 is less than 15% heavier than our Zafira, that should have
>>>>>>>> little effect on any properly built and maintained road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unclassified roads, such as residential streets, would have been
>>>>>>> built to suit the traffic of the day and since then have usually
>>>>>>> had little more maintenance than the occasional replacement of the
>>>>>>> wearing surface. My road was built in 1931. How do your cars
>>>>>>> compare for weight with cars from the 1930s?
>>>>>> They probably compare pretty well with narrow wheeled carts and
>>>>>> the remaining solid tyred wagons - especially steam wagons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those would be using the same roads as today's HGVs and those roads
>>>>> are not expected to cause any problems. It is country lanes and
>>>>> residential roads that they are worried about. Simply looking at my
>>>>> own vehicle history shows the way that vehicle weights have grown.
>>>>> My first car, a medium sized saloon, made in 1959, weighed about
>>>>> 16cwt. By the 1970s, I was driving a Triumph 2.5pi, which was a big
>>>>> car for its day and that weighed in at 1.2 tonnes. My current
>>>>> vehicle is half a tonne heavier than that. Your MG4 may only be 15%
>>>>> heavier that your Zafira, but they are both a lot heavier than the
>>>>> cars these roads were built for
>>
>>>> The roads weren't built for the weight of the current cars at the
>>>> time.
>>>> They were always built for the trucks seen at the time, even
>>>> with unregulated roads because they used to have trucks
>>>> delivering coal
>>
>>> When I lived in London, our coal was delivered by horse and cart.
>> And the wheels of the cart would have been much more
>> like to crack the road surface than a truck of that era.

> Both the coal cart and the milk cart had pneumatic tyres.

What yours had is completely irrelevant.

> I do recall seeing a lorry with solid rubber tyres though.

And that was very common at the time.

>>>> and then later heating oil etc and removal
>>>> vans and cranes etc for some building work and trucks
>>>> loaded with bricks etc.
>>
>>>>> and that 15% could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
>>
>>>> Nope, roads don't work like that.

On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 09:00:39 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2024 20:37, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 07:19:44 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/01/2024 17:45, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 07 Jan 2024 02:18:04 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/01/2024 12:57, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:58:22 +0000, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 05/01/2024 09:56, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>>>>>> [quoted text muted]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems to be well established that damage to roads is roughly
>>>>>>> proportional to the fourth power of the weight of the vehicle.
>>>>>> That's one factor. The force of acceleration is another. It
>>>>>> creates a
>>>>>> shear force surely ?
>>>>>
>>>>> That will only affect the wearing layer. Potholes are formed by
>>>>> faults deeper in the road structure.
>>
>>>> Nope, they are caused by the top surface of the road cracking
>>>> and letting water into the substructure of the road. Once bits of
>>>> the top surface break off to form a hole, that fills with water an
>>>> the sub structure gravel gets pumped out by tires going into
>>>> the hole and pumping it out with the water.
>>
>>> The top layer on British roads is simply there to take wear.

>> That is just plain wrong. Its actually there to stop water getting
>> into the underlying packed gravel which is much deeper.

> You must build roads differently in Oz.

Nope.

> The wearing layer is only 20-40mm thick and really isthere simply to
> make it easier to resurface the road.

Bullshit and it doesnt make it easier at all.

>>> The much thicker layer below that is also waterproof, either asphalt
>>> or concrete,

>> Have fun spelling out how you get a pothole in that.

> You don't, unless a heavy vehicle damages it.

That is just plain wrong.

>>
>>> and the compacted MOT* is below that.
>>
>>> * A mix of different materials to Ministry Of Transport specifications.