Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2022 13:28, MB wrote:
>>>> On 20/02/2022 11:45, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> Interestingly the rail industry seems to be lagging. Air and marine
>>>>> transport already have significant monitoring equipment. In the marine
>>>>> field there are "black boxes" and AIS systems fitted to all commercial
>>>>> vessels. My understanding is that the airline industry have even more
>>>>> sophisticated gizmos.
>>>>
>>>> I think AIS is required above a certain size of vessel.
>>>>
>>>> I think they are like airlines and contract out management of the vessel
>>>> to specialist companies who act as 24/7 contact.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone know what parameters marine AIS reports, other than the obvious
>>> speed, course and position?
>>>
>>
>> It seems an awful lot of stuff can be transmitted, see
>>
>> https://arundaleais.github.io/docs/ais/ais_message_types.html
>>
>> and if you want to really get to grips with it here’s the 148 page spec
>>
>> https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/m/R-REC-M.1371-5-201402-I!!PDF-E.pdf
>>
>> which leads me to ponder why trains can’t report their position accurately,
>> rather than relying on proxy systems such as axle counters or track
>> circuits. (Before folk chime up about not being able to see GPS satellites
>> in cuttings etc, it is possible to rebroadcast GPS signals and use other
>> radio beacon methods. Or balises)
>>
>>
>
> Are you suggesting this as a replacement for track circuits/axle counters
> in signalling, or in addition to?
>
> If it's as a replacement for, you'd have to be very very confident that the
> reading wasn't even 1m out.
>
> I'm quite happy for the track to continue to report whether or not it's
> occupied by a train.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

I’m not entirely sure what I’m proposing, more pondering.

On 20/02/2022 13:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> One of my phones about ten years ago apparently had a feature where it
> was taking and saving photos continuously for about ten seconds, before
> deleting them. And when you pressed the "shutter" all it was actually
> doing was archiving the very latest.

The danger having the camera linked by WiFi as POTUS's photographer
found. :-)

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/02/2022 20:36, ColinR wrote:
>> On 19/02/2022 13:59, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:20:03 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/02/2022 12:54, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I was on a flight from England to northern Germany which couldn't land
>>>>> and did return to the UK but the crew were aware this was a possibility
>>>>> and carried extra fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Aircraft always have enough extra fuel to reach a suitable range of
>>>> diversion airfields if necessary.
>>>
>>> Indeed so, and so should battery powered trains!
>>
>> Made by Hornby? ;-)
>>
>
> Triang Rovex in my day!
>

EverReady the battery people produced a train set allegedly so they could
sell more of a particular type of battery, they made the unusual decision
to represent a London tube train which some sources say was because a
directors son wanted one. Very crude tinplate and though they were red with
London Transport on the sides the shape the no way a scale model was more a
representation
of the 1940’s Waterloo and City stock.

< https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/10897/lot/100/>

GH

On 20/02/2022 14:02, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 17:11:51 -0800, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:20:03 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/02/2022 12:54, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 19/02/2022 12:35, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> On 19/02/2022 12:19, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/02/2022 11:57, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/02/2022 11:46, MB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 19/02/2022 10:20, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It'll be even worse when visas are needed as passengers will be
>>>>>>>>>> stuck
>>>>>>>>>> airside at the airport.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many people had Canadian visas when much of the US air traffic
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> diverted to Canada after 9/11?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The world is a different place since then with red tape hatred towards
>>>>>>>> UK citizens vastly increased since then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think we need visas for anywhere now that we didn't three years
>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'll need visas for the EU soon so diversions to the EU will become
>>>>>> a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure of this being relevant to this discussion, although otherwise
>>>>> true. The discussion was planes being diverted due to weather back to
>>>>> their last airport. If this is a EU airport then the passengers will
>>>>> have had to have visas to get onto the plane before being diverted
>>>>> back to the EU.
>>>>>
>>>> What if the flight is from a non EU country?  I cannot see a flight from
>>>> Turkey to the UK having enough fuel to return to Turkey.
>>>>
>>>> I was on a flight from England to northern Germany which couldn't land
>>>> and did return to the UK but the crew were aware this was a possibility
>>>> and carried extra fuel.
>>>
>>> Aircraft always have enough extra fuel to reach a suitable range of
>>> diversion airfields if necessary.
>>
>> Except AC flopping at Gimli, MB... luckily/fortunately...
>
> They made the classic error of confusing metric and imperial measures, like a frequent poster here.
>
> But Canadian airliners do seem to make a habit of running out of fuel in mid-air and having to glide down to an
> emergency landing:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

.... or ignore repeated go-around orders at SFO, then claimed that the
comms had failed.

On 20/02/2022 23:47, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/02/2022 20:36, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 19/02/2022 13:59, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:20:03 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 19/02/2022 12:54, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I was on a flight from England to northern Germany which couldn't land
>>>>>> and did return to the UK but the crew were aware this was a possibility
>>>>>> and carried extra fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aircraft always have enough extra fuel to reach a suitable range of
>>>>> diversion airfields if necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed so, and so should battery powered trains!
>>>
>>> Made by Hornby? ;-)
>>>
>>
>> Triang Rovex in my day!
>>
>
> EverReady the battery people produced a train set allegedly so they could
> sell more of a particular type of battery, they made the unusual decision
> to represent a London tube train which some sources say was because a
> directors son wanted one. Very crude tinplate and though they were red with
> London Transport on the sides the shape the no way a scale model was more a
> representation
> of the 1940’s Waterloo and City stock.
>
> < https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/10897/lot/100/>
>

I remember seeing those in Gamages in Holburn. My grandfather used to
take me there at Christmas to see the model railway layout.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/02/2022 23:47, Marland wrote:

>>>>> Indeed so, and so should battery powered trains!
>>>>
>>>> Made by Hornby? ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Triang Rovex in my day!
>>>
>>
>> EverReady the battery people produced a train set allegedly so they could
>> sell more of a particular type of battery, they made the unusual decision
>> to represent a London tube train which some sources say was because a
>> directors son wanted
>>
>> < https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/10897/lot/100/>
>>
>
> I remember seeing those in Gamages in Holburn. My grandfather used to
> take me there at Christmas to see the model railway layout.
>
>

That fits well with the history of them, EverReady tried selling them via
people who stocked their batteries which back in the 1950’s would have been
independent cycle shops, hardware stores, wireless shops etc.
In traditional model shops their crudeness and limited market appeal
compared to the much better engineered Hornby Dublo and the not quite as
sophisticated but good enough Rovex/embryonic
Tri-ang ranges meant sales were poor.
Gamages as a London toy shop were stocking them and ended up buying the
remaindered and returned stock at a knockdown price and sold them off
cheaply mainly over a couple of Christmases.

GH

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 17:17:05 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 19/02/2022 17:02, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Blame Boris, he made no provision for the inevitable border checks, just
>>> lied that they wouldn't happen.
>>
>> Rubbish. The french were deliberately doing excess unnecessary border checks
>> last year.
>
>Which were the unnecessary ones? Or are you using the word, like the

You don't watch or read much news do you.

No, thats not a question.

>> Really? So those men in the boats are just day trippers then?
>
>I'll give you a clue, they are not Europeans.

No!!! Say it ain't so! Are you following this thread or are you having a
senior moment?

>>> f-wits who created a non-existent problem.
>>
>> Why not put some up in your house if they're no problem.
>
>Stupid comment, they weren't put up in anyone's houses.

Oh dear.

>>> Another exaggeration. The pound is down, the economy is down,[1] chunks
>>> of the City have legged it, as you put it, but carry on denying it.
>>
>
>See the reports of the Public Accounts Committee, among others.

Very little has gone to Paris and almost nothing to Frankfurt. In fact most of
the little the City has lost has gone to wall street rather kyboshing the
plans of the hand rubbing Macron.

On 21/02/2022 10:23, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 17:17:05 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/02/2022 17:02, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Blame Boris, he made no provision for the inevitable border checks, just
>>>> lied that they wouldn't happen.
>>>
>>> Rubbish. The french were deliberately doing excess unnecessary border checks
>>> last year.
>>
>> Which were the unnecessary ones? Or are you using the word, like the
>
> You don't watch or read much news do you.
>
> No, thats not a question.
>
>>> Really? So those men in the boats are just day trippers then?
>>
>> I'll give you a clue, they are not Europeans.
>
> No!!! Say it ain't so! Are you following this thread or are you having a
> senior moment?
>
>>>> f-wits who created a non-existent problem.
>>>
>>> Why not put some up in your house if they're no problem.
>>
>> Stupid comment, they weren't put up in anyone's houses.
>
> Oh dear.
>
>>>> Another exaggeration. The pound is down, the economy is down,[1] chunks
>>>> of the City have legged it, as you put it, but carry on denying it.
>>>
>>
>> See the reports of the Public Accounts Committee, among others.
>
> Very little has gone to Paris and almost nothing to Frankfurt. In fact most of
> the little the City has lost has gone to wall street rather kyboshing the
> plans of the hand rubbing Macron.
>
Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.

If the shelves are not back to normal by the end of the month it's brexit.

On 2022-02-19 16:16:02 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk said:

> On 19/02/2022 16:03, Tweed wrote:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 19/02/2022 12:02, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> Drones exist, autonomous rail vehicles don't.
>>>
>>> There are some but most of the work is aimed at carrying rail freight. A
>>> small self-contained vehicle is much easier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Autonomous Track Inspection: Keeping Railways Safe & Efficient
>>>
>>> https://railway-news.com/autonomous-track-inspection-keeping-railways-safe-efficient/
>>>
>>>
>>> The railway industry is entering a new era of autonomous track
>>> inspection that couples frequent inspections of track with defect
>>> detection and software analysis capabilities, which in turn optimise
>>> railway maintenance and renewal planning, reduce risks through earlier
>>> identification of track defects, and improve rail network safety.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if we’ve got to the point where every train/locomotive could be
>> fitted with track monitoring equipment?
>>
>
> Why would it need to be fitted to every train/locomotive?
>
> Can you imagine the total cost?

Don't some of the more recent EMUs have on board equipment that
monitors the condition of the OHLE? I thought that was the reason for
the upward facing lamps fitted in the pantograph wells on the units was
for.

Robin

On 2022-02-20 11:15:56 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:

> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 20/02/2022 01:25, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> It doesn't appear to be about fully unstaffed rail vehicles for checking
>>> that the line is clear after a storm.
>>
>> It shows that unmanned equipment can monitor the track.
>
> It's monitoring the track for gauge, top, line, twist faults etc, and
> presence of the rail->sleeper track fixings. It's not checking for trees on
> the line ahead.
>
>> If they can
>> design a freight train than can operate unmanned then a small rail
>> vehicle should be no problem.
>>
>
> By unmanned freight train I presume you mean the Australian operation?
> Totally unstaffed trains of any type usually require lots of track- and
> trackside- equipment fitted to the line as well as equipment on the
> vehicles.

Of course the same applies to trains driven by human beings, with all
the various signalling systems.

>> A lot of effort seem to be being put into using UAVs but I cannot see
>> them being of much use in severe weather conditions which is when there
>> is a need for track inspection.
>>
>
> What happens when the autonomous rail vehicle discovers an obstruction?
> Surely you'd be better off sending a rail, or road-rail, vehicle with a
> number of crew on board and some tools, who can then attempt to clear the
> line?
>
> NR Scotland use a helicopter to locate obstructions on the line after
> storms.

The underlying question is whether developing and procuring an
autonomous system is justified by the number of times it would actually
be used. Most lines have human operated trains running over them at
reasonably frequent intervals, and the drivers of said trains are able
to report obvious problems with the line (or adjascent lines). The
Yellow Trains run over most of the network periodically to survey for
harder-to-spot issues that need attention.

The specific need to bring lines back into service after service has
been suspended due to storms only happens a handful of times a year. In
such a situation, the availability of these machines would need to make
it quicker and easier than the current solutions, but that would mean
there would have to be sufficient of these machines that the queuing
time to get one deployed on a particular route is not excessive. That
would mean having a large fleet of these machines sitting in sheds for
350 days a year on the off chance that they might be needed. I think
there are likely to be better ways to spend the money.

Robin

On 21/02/2022 10:32, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
> know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
> shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.

I have still not seen empty shelves or at least no more than there ever
were.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:32:15 +0000
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>On 21/02/2022 10:23, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Very little has gone to Paris and almost nothing to Frankfurt. In fact most
>of
>> the little the City has lost has gone to wall street rather kyboshing the
>> plans of the hand rubbing Macron.
>>
>Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
>know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
>shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.
>
>If the shelves are not back to normal by the end of the month it's brexit.

Don't know where you live but here in london the only time stuff was missing
from the shelves was when the muppets were panic buying at the start of
lockdown. Other than that the shelves have been stocked full.

In message <suvrfs$6ao$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:02:20 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:

>The underlying question is whether developing and procuring an
>autonomous system is justified by the number of times it would actually
>be used. Most lines have human operated trains running over them at
>reasonably frequent intervals, and the drivers of said trains are able
>to report obvious problems with the line (or adjascent lines). The
>Yellow Trains run over most of the network periodically to survey for
>harder-to-spot issues that need attention.

The yellow trains can also apply agreed service limits.

Here on the Fen Line, there are many places the track is so bad you
might be thrown off your feet if walking along the train. Drivers could
be conditioned to this, and think "oh well, it is the fens after all".

But at some stage a measurement train might say "hang on, this sort of
wobble would be unacceptable (but we can't be bothered to fix it here)
anywhere else on the network, but it's now got to the point it could
actually break something".
--
Roland Perry

In message <suvrje$5td$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:15 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 21/02/2022 10:32, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>> Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
>> know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
>> shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.
>
>I have still not seen empty shelves or at least no more than there ever
>were.

You are lucky (or have a poor memory of what used to be there before).

The supermarkets round here have slimmed down their ranges, or have
virtually empty shelves where much fresh produce used to be.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/02/2022 11:04, MB wrote:
> On 21/02/2022 10:32, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
>> know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
>> shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.
>
> I have still not seen empty shelves or at least no more than there ever
> were.

You've not been looking very carefully. They've even given up spreading
out what they have got out to fill the gaps.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 21/02/2022 11:20, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:32:15 +0000
> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 21/02/2022 10:23, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Very little has gone to Paris and almost nothing to Frankfurt. In fact most
>> of
>>> the little the City has lost has gone to wall street rather kyboshing the
>>> plans of the hand rubbing Macron.
>>>
>> Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
>> know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
>> shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.
>>
>> If the shelves are not back to normal by the end of the month it's brexit.
>
> Don't know where you live but here in london the only time stuff was missing
> from the shelves was when the muppets were panic buying at the start of
> lockdown. Other than that the shelves have been stocked full.
> Vegetables have the most obviously depleted shelves this morning around
here. Touring three supermarkets none had broccoli and one was without
bacon.

I wonder why the supermarkets are favouring London?

On 21/02/2022 11:02, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-02-20 11:15:56 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:
>
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2022 01:25, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> It doesn't appear to be about fully unstaffed rail vehicles for
>>>> checking
>>>> that the line is clear after a storm.
>>>
>>> It shows that unmanned equipment can monitor the track.
>>
>> It's monitoring the track for gauge, top, line, twist faults etc, and
>> presence of the rail->sleeper track fixings. It's not checking for
>> trees on
>> the line ahead.
>>
>>> If they can
>>> design a freight train than can operate unmanned then a small rail
>>> vehicle should be no problem.
>>>
>>
>> By unmanned freight train I presume you mean the Australian operation?
>> Totally unstaffed trains of any type usually require lots of track- and
>> trackside- equipment fitted to the line as well as equipment on the
>> vehicles.
>
> Of course the same applies to trains driven by human beings, with all
> the various signalling systems.
>
>>> A lot of effort seem to be being put into using UAVs but I cannot see
>>> them being of much use in severe weather conditions which is when there
>>> is a need for track inspection.
>>>
>>
>> What happens when the autonomous rail vehicle discovers an obstruction?
>> Surely you'd be better off sending a rail, or road-rail, vehicle with a
>> number of crew on board and some tools, who can then attempt to clear the
>> line?
>>
>> NR Scotland use a helicopter to locate obstructions on the line after
>> storms.
>
> The underlying question is whether developing and procuring an
> autonomous system is justified by the number of times it would actually
> be used.  Most lines have human operated trains running over them at
> reasonably frequent intervals, and the drivers of said trains are able
> to report obvious problems with the line (or adjascent lines).  The
> Yellow Trains run over most of the network periodically to survey for
> harder-to-spot issues that need attention.
>
> The specific need to bring lines back into service after service has
> been suspended due to storms only happens a handful of times a year. In
> such a situation, the availability of these machines would need to make
> it quicker and easier than the current solutions, but that would mean
> there would have to be sufficient of these machines that the queuing
> time to get one deployed on a particular route is not excessive.  That
> would mean having a large fleet of these machines sitting in sheds for
> 350 days a year on the off chance that they might be needed.  I think
> there are likely to be better ways to spend the money.
>
>

The Heart of Wales line has still not reopened in spite of a locomotive
with chain saw crew on board for over two days. How do you do that with
an autonomous train?

On 21/02/2022 13:06, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> The Heart of Wales line has still not reopened in spite of a locomotive
> with chain saw crew on board for over two days. How do you do that with
> an autonomous train?

Same as with the very expensive helicopter that Network Rail use. You do
a survey and check where the man with chainsaw needs to go.

Though would the union insist on one of their members driving an
autonomous railway vehicle?

On 21/02/2022 13:35, MB wrote:
> On 21/02/2022 13:06, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> The Heart of Wales line has still not reopened in spite of a locomotive
>> with chain saw crew on board for over two days.  How do you do that with
>> an autonomous train?
>
> Same as with the very expensive helicopter that Network Rail use. You do
> a survey and check where the man with chainsaw needs to go.
>
> Though would the union insist on one of their members driving an
> autonomous railway vehicle?
>
>
>
>

But you can't get the autonomous vehicle past the first tree until the
men with the chainsaw turn up.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sv02cs$m3e$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:00:12 on Mon, 21 Feb
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 21/02/2022 11:20, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:32:15 +0000
>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2022 10:23, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Very little has gone to Paris and almost nothing to Frankfurt. In fact most
>>> of
>>>> the little the City has lost has gone to wall street rather kyboshing the
>>>> plans of the hand rubbing Macron.
>>>>
>>> Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
>>> know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
>>> shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.
>>>
>>> If the shelves are not back to normal by the end of the month it's brexit.
>> Don't know where you live but here in london the only time stuff was
>>missing from the shelves was when the muppets were panic buying at
>>the start of lockdown. Other than that the shelves have been stocked
>>full.

>Vegetables have the most obviously depleted shelves this morning
>around here. Touring three supermarkets none had broccoli and one was
>without bacon.

My local mid-size supermarket frequently has almost no chilled-chicken
(maybe one cut like thighs, and no breast) and at the end of last week
no blue-top milk at all (in any size). So I bought a small green-top to
tide me over.

The vegetable shelves look OK from a distance, but when you get closer,
about half of them are upside-down green crates, rather than anything to
buy.

>I wonder why the supermarkets are favouring London?

Because that's where most Guardian journalists live?
--
Roland Perry

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-19 16:16:02 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk said:
>
>> On 19/02/2022 16:03, Tweed wrote:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 19/02/2022 12:02, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> Drones exist, autonomous rail vehicles don't.
>>>>
>>>> There are some but most of the work is aimed at carrying rail freight. A
>>>> small self-contained vehicle is much easier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Autonomous Track Inspection: Keeping Railways Safe & Efficient
>>>>
>>>> https://railway-news.com/autonomous-track-inspection-keeping-railways-safe-efficient/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The railway industry is entering a new era of autonomous track
>>>> inspection that couples frequent inspections of track with defect
>>>> detection and software analysis capabilities, which in turn optimise
>>>> railway maintenance and renewal planning, reduce risks through earlier
>>>> identification of track defects, and improve rail network safety.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if we’ve got to the point where every train/locomotive could be
>>> fitted with track monitoring equipment?
>>>
>>
>> Why would it need to be fitted to every train/locomotive?
>>
>> Can you imagine the total cost?
>
> Don't some of the more recent EMUs have on board equipment that
> monitors the condition of the OHLE? I thought that was the reason for
> the upward facing lamps fitted in the pantograph wells on the units was
> for.
>

Yes, IETs and 387s have Pantograph CCTV (when the lens isn't too grubby to
see through), but AIUI that's for fault-finding/blame attribution in the
event of dewirement, rather than being actively monitored and feeding back
faults before they become a problem (MENTOR and NMT do that on their IM
recording runs). 387s also have track-facing FFCCTV in addition to their
normal FFCCTV, hence their fourth light on the front shining down at the
track, and again I think that's for post-incident use.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-20 11:15:56 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:
>
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2022 01:25, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> It doesn't appear to be about fully unstaffed rail vehicles for checking
>>>> that the line is clear after a storm.
>>>
>>> It shows that unmanned equipment can monitor the track.
>>
>> It's monitoring the track for gauge, top, line, twist faults etc, and
>> presence of the rail->sleeper track fixings. It's not checking for trees on
>> the line ahead.
>>
>>> If they can
>>> design a freight train than can operate unmanned then a small rail
>>> vehicle should be no problem.
>>>
>>
>> By unmanned freight train I presume you mean the Australian operation?
>> Totally unstaffed trains of any type usually require lots of track- and
>> trackside- equipment fitted to the line as well as equipment on the
>> vehicles.
>
> Of course the same applies to trains driven by human beings, with all
> the various signalling systems.
>

Those are already present, though; rather than needing to be fitted in
order to use one special vehicle to check the line is clear after storms.

>>> A lot of effort seem to be being put into using UAVs but I cannot see
>>> them being of much use in severe weather conditions which is when there
>>> is a need for track inspection.
>>>
>>
>> What happens when the autonomous rail vehicle discovers an obstruction?
>> Surely you'd be better off sending a rail, or road-rail, vehicle with a
>> number of crew on board and some tools, who can then attempt to clear the
>> line?
>>
>> NR Scotland use a helicopter to locate obstructions on the line after
>> storms.
>
> The underlying question is whether developing and procuring an
> autonomous system is justified by the number of times it would actually
> be used. Most lines have human operated trains running over them at
> reasonably frequent intervals, and the drivers of said trains are able
> to report obvious problems with the line (or adjascent lines). The
> Yellow Trains run over most of the network periodically to survey for
> harder-to-spot issues that need attention.
>
> The specific need to bring lines back into service after service has
> been suspended due to storms only happens a handful of times a year. In
> such a situation, the availability of these machines would need to make
> it quicker and easier than the current solutions, but that would mean
> there would have to be sufficient of these machines that the queuing
> time to get one deployed on a particular route is not excessive. That
> would mean having a large fleet of these machines sitting in sheds for
> 350 days a year on the off chance that they might be needed. I think
> there are likely to be better ways to spend the money.
>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <suvrfs$6ao$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:02:20 on Mon, 21 Feb
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>
>> The underlying question is whether developing and procuring an
>> autonomous system is justified by the number of times it would actually
>> be used. Most lines have human operated trains running over them at
>> reasonably frequent intervals, and the drivers of said trains are able
>> to report obvious problems with the line (or adjascent lines). The
>> Yellow Trains run over most of the network periodically to survey for
>> harder-to-spot issues that need attention.
>
> The yellow trains can also apply agreed service limits.
>
> Here on the Fen Line, there are many places the track is so bad you
> might be thrown off your feet if walking along the train. Drivers could
> be conditioned to this, and think "oh well, it is the fens after all".
>
> But at some stage a measurement train might say "hang on, this sort of
> wobble would be unacceptable (but we can't be bothered to fix it here)
> anywhere else on the network, but it's now got to the point it could
> actually break something".

The IM trains do two levels of monitoring.

There are crews on board who monitor the output (on the 'recording'
sections, which is not necessarily all the time [1]) and when it flags up a
'block the line' fault, they quickly assess whether it's genuine or
spurious [2].

Meanwhile, all the data collected (line, top, gauge, twist) plus the PLPR
images (Plain Line Pattern Recognition) are sent back to Derby to be
assessed by office-based staff and software, and this is where developing
faults are detected, or stuff which is safe to run over but needs attention
(certain types of fault have a time deadline by which they must be attended
to eg 24, 36, 48 hours), or stuff which needs a TSR (Temporary Speed
Restriction) imposing [3].

[1] for example, on a single track route, the trip in one direction will
record the who route and the trip the other way will record only the
passing loops, the rest being 'transit'. The way the network and schedules
work out, some trips are far more 'transit' than 'recording'!

[2] the spurious ones are usually wide-to-gauge faults; the track geometry
is measured optically, and can be affected by sunlight from time to time;
but the spurious readings go instantaneously good-bad-good, where an actual
track fault would get gradually further out of gauge before triggering a
'block the line' fault.

[3] you can usually tell when the track recording/PLPR train has been
around because there will be a sudden influx of 30-over-linespeed ESRs for
cyclic top (ie, passenger trains normal speed, freight trains 30mph, due to
a repeated up-down in the rail level which can derail primitive freight
wagon suspension). Meanwhile the Ultrasonic train leaves in its wake a load
of 20mph ESRs for cracked rails needing welding or a section replacing.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 21/02/2022 13:06, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> The Heart of Wales line has still not reopened in spite of a locomotive
>> with chain saw crew on board for over two days. How do you do that with
>> an autonomous train?
>
> Same as with the very expensive helicopter that Network Rail use. You do
> a survey and check where the man with chainsaw needs to go.
>
>

How many miles of track can your autonomous vehicle check in a day compared
to a helicopter? How can it get past the first blockage to find the next
three?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 13:00:12 +0000
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>On 21/02/2022 11:20, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:32:15 +0000
>> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2022 10:23, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Very little has gone to Paris and almost nothing to Frankfurt. In fact most
>
>>> of
>>>> the little the City has lost has gone to wall street rather kyboshing the
>>>> plans of the hand rubbing Macron.
>>>>
>>> Once Johnson declares the covid crisis over this week we're going to
>>> know for sure if covid or Brexit is causing the supermarket empty
>>> shelves in supermarkets or the long queues for cross channel ferries.
>>>
>>> If the shelves are not back to normal by the end of the month it's brexit.
>>
>> Don't know where you live but here in london the only time stuff was missing
>> from the shelves was when the muppets were panic buying at the start of
>> lockdown. Other than that the shelves have been stocked full.
>> Vegetables have the most obviously depleted shelves this morning around
>here. Touring three supermarkets none had broccoli and one was without
>bacon.

Oh dear, no broccoli or bacon. How are you coping?

>I wonder why the supermarkets are favouring London?

Maybe the backend of beyond tends to be last on the list.