On 25/10/2021 16:40, lew wrote:
> On 25/10/2021 13:33, williamwright wrote:
>
>> I'm glad someone read my post in the same spirit as I sent it, rather
>> than indulging in pointless sniping.
>
> The quote of Voltaire you gave is fictitious. Moreover, as the Wikipedia
> entry demonstrates, he did not accept the libertarian viewpoint you
> attribute to him. You may regard that as pointless sniping but others
> may others may regard it as a falsehood corrected.
>
>

You are confusing the validity of the ethic with the historical fact of
its attribution.

Bill

On 26/10/2021 09:31, lew wrote:
> On 26/10/2021 00:18, williamwright wrote:
>
>>>> I'm glad someone read my post in the same spirit as I sent it,
>>>> rather than indulging in pointless sniping.
>>>
>>> The quote of Voltaire you gave is fictitious. Moreover, as the
>>> Wikipedia entry demonstrates, he did not accept the libertarian
>>> viewpoint you attribute to him. You may regard that as pointless
>>> sniping but others may others may regard it as a falsehood corrected.
>>>
>>>
>> If you want that standard of truth I suggest you avoid all media.
>
> And I suggest you not take it personally when someone points out that
> you are mistaken.
> I'm not doing.

Bill

On 26/10/2021 09:01, Graeme wrote:
> In message <itnmg1Fsk2mU1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
> <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> writes
>> I'm glad someone read my post in the same spirit as I sent it
>
> Twenty years ago, we (self/wife) would spend a good chunk of the weekend
> trying to complete the Telegraph's large general knowledge crossword. It
> was fun.  We had (still have) a reasonable collection of books - quotes,
> poetry, history, dictionary, thesaurus, atlas etc.  Filling in the final
> answer always gave a great feeling of satisfaction.
>
> These days, we don't even buy a newspaper :-(
>

I've just got so cynical...

Bill

On 26/10/2021 09:50, Graeme wrote:
> In message <itpsejFaso2U2@mid.individual.net>, Norman Wells
> <hex@unseen.ac.am> writes
>> On 26/10/2021 09:01, Graeme wrote:
>
>>>  These days, we don't even buy a newspaper :-(
>>
>> But you do have a weekend.
>>
> These days, every day is a weekend :-)
>

I've got a weak end...

Bill

Yes all succinct ways to put what should be obvious, but is not.
Today is yesterdays tomorrow, but some say tomorrow never comes.
Brian

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"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:itl23bFd8a0U1@mid.individual.net...
>I seem to have rediscovered books. Remember books? Sort of like the
>internet but usually not about as many things, and you have to have the
>light on to use them. Good though. Anyway, I've been looking at my
>quotations books. I've got quite few; I've always liked the way a pithy
>quote can encapsulate a thought, and I can even remember a few quotations -
>yes, I can quote a few quotes. "Well he would, wouldn't he?" - Mandy
>Rice-Davies. "A week is a long time in politics." - Harold Wilson. "We are
>not amused." Queen Victoria (possibly). That's about it actually. Amnesia
>is as always my handy excuse.
>
> I used to enjoy 'Quote Unquote'; probably the only genuinely amusing
> programme on the Woke-ridden barren desert of right-on dourness that Radio
> Four has become.
>
> But looking at my quotations books I came across a guy called Voltaire. I
> sort of thought his quotes would be all about electricity, because they
> named the volt after him, didn't they? Err no, turns out that was a
> different chap, an Italian, name of Volta.
>
> Voltaire was French, but I forgave him that when I read some of his famous
> quotes. I reckon a lot of what he said must have become the accepted
> wisdom of all civilised nations over the years, with moralities and even
> laws based on it. But then, more recently, M. Voltaire's wisdom seems to
> have somehow slipped away from us. I think that's a great shame.
>
> Here are some of Voltaire's quotes. It's a pity he isn't around today to
> shout them from the rooftops.
>
> I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to
> say it.
>
> The right to free speech is more important than the content of the speech.
>
> Dare to think for yourself.
>
> The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling
> man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants
> to believe.
>
> Is politics nothing other than the art of deliberately lying?
>
> The most important decision you make is to be in a good mood.
>
> Many are destined to reason wrongly; others, not to reason at all; and
> others, to persecute those who do reason.
>
> It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong.
>
> The more often a stupidity is repeated, the more it gets the appearance of
> wisdom.
>
> If you want to know who controls you, look at who you are not allowed to
> criticize.
>
> Common sense is not so common.
>
> Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to
> believe.
>
>
>
>

Is pragmatism just another way to hedge your bets?
Brian

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"MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sl3plr$k2l$1@dont-email.me...
> On 24/10/2021 14:29, lew wrote:
>> He didn't say it and it's unlikely he would have approved of the
>> sentiment.
>
> In the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations
>
>
> I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say it.
> to helv�tius, following the burning of De l'esprit in 1759
> attributed to voltaire, but in fact a later summary of his attitude by S.
> G. Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1907); see voltaire
>

Its a shame people do not have off switches like tvs computers and radios.

grin.
Brian

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"williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:itm4afFji95U2@mid.individual.net...
> On 24/10/2021 14:29, lew wrote:
>> On 24/10/2021 13:32, williamwright wrote:
>>
>>> Here are some of Voltaire's quotes. It's a pity he isn't around today to
>>> shout them from the rooftops.
>>>
>>> I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to
>>> say it.
>>
>> He didn't say it and it's unlikely he would have approved of the
>> sentiment.
>
>
> It doesn't matter. That's not the point.
>
> Bill

Most people do have a sense of self delusion because as we all know everyone
believes they are right!

Brian

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"Bev" <Bev@invalid.com> wrote in message news:sl8jpp$p6b$2@dont-email.me...
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 23:16:47 +0100, williamwright wrote:
>
>> On 24/10/2021 14:29, lew wrote:
>>> On 24/10/2021 13:32, williamwright wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here are some of Voltaire's quotes. It's a pity he isn't around today
>>>> to shout them from the rooftops.
>>>>
>>>> I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right
>>>> to say it.
>>>
>>> He didn't say it and it's unlikely he would have approved of the
>>> sentiment.
>>
>>
>> It doesn't matter. That's not the point.
>>
> So the point is that you are not bothered about the truth but a view that
> you wish to propagate which is not based on fact.

In message <itrd0pFasosU3@mid.individual.net>, Bob Eager
<news0009@eager.cx> writes
>I should have said - don't get it from Amazon, but direct from the
>compiler.
>
> https://www.nemosalmanac.com/contact

Perfect. TY
--
Graeme

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:54:06 +0100, williamwright wrote:

> On 26/10/2021 11:03, Bev wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 23:16:47 +0100, williamwright wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/10/2021 14:29, lew wrote:
>>>> On 24/10/2021 13:32, williamwright wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here are some of Voltaire’s quotes. It’s a pity he isn’t around
>>>>> today to shout them from the rooftops.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your
>>>>> right to say it.
>>>>
>>>> He didn't say it and it's unlikely he would have approved of the
>>>> sentiment.
>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter. That's not the point.
>>>
>> So the point is that you are not bothered about the truth but a view
>> that you wish to propagate which is not based on fact.
>>
>>
> You are confusing the validity of the ethic with the historical fact of
> its attribution.
>
> Do you now understand what I meant by 'that's not the point'?
>
Yep, you are not interested in the truth just your version of it.

In article <slc6h6$28j$1@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Williams point is that the quote stands no matter who may or may
> not have uttered it,

+1

Bob.

On 27/10/2021 19:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Williams point is that the quote stands no matter who may or may not
> have uttered it,

But it's not a quote; it's a piece of fiction, attributed to a person
who may well have believed the opposite.

> Many famous quotes are hearsay - "let them eat cake (brioche)" is one.
> Occams  famous razor is another.

True, but a non-sequitur.

--
Lew

On 27/10/2021 20:57, lew wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 19:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Williams point is that the quote stands no matter who may or may not
>> have uttered it,
>
> But it's not a quote; it's a piece of fiction, attributed to a person
> who may well have believed the opposite.

So are all quotes.

11 years ago I posted something in IIRC the daily Telegraph linking to a
paper I had written in my real name, about the problems of renewable
energy. The first time I had ever used my real name in a document in the
'public domain'.
Imagine my surprise to discover that I (real name) 'was a *well known*
climate denier, whose opinions had been completely refuted in 'skeptical
science', and was in the pay of an oil company'!

Everything is fiction, at one level or another. Heck I have had people
say to me 'you said to me once that XXXX...and I have never forgotten
it.' and I have zero recollection of ever saying it.

What counts is the narrative...

>
>> Many famous quotes are hearsay - "let them eat cake (brioche)" is one.
>> Occams  famous razor is another.
>
> True, but a non-sequitur.
>
Not at all, it is very much a sequitur. Good sayings are valuable
things, no matter who made them up - and nearly all are made up.

Attributing them to someone famous is a useful aide-memoire.

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 27/10/2021 20:10, Bob Latham wrote:
>
> In article <slc6h6$28j$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 27/10/2021 14:40, Bev wrote:
>>>
>>> So the point is that you are not bothered about the truth but a view
>>> that you wish to propagate which is not based on fact.
>>> [...]
>>> Yep, you are not interested in the truth just your version of it.
>>
>> Williams point is that the quote stands no matter who may or may not have uttered it

Bev's point whooshed right over your head, which is that, rather
typically, Bill was pontificating, sermonising if you prefer, based on a
falsehood, and didn't like being corrected.

The quote is bollocks anyway, there is no-one in the world who would
fight to the death to defend another person's right to say absolutely
anything at all, no matter how much in bad taste, corrupt, offensive,
downright false, libelling a blameless third party, etc, etc. 'Free
speech' has never meant and doesn't mean that you can say anything to
anybody anywhere including a public space. There have always been
limitations of free speech, whether by social conventions on taste and
decency, or by legal enforcement.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-freedom-of-speech

"The United States received the highest score of 5.73. [...] Freedom of
speech does have restrictions. These include, but are not limited to,
libel, slander, incitement, copyright violation, trade secrets, and
perjury. A person may not incite action that would harm others, such as
shouting “fire” in a crowded theater. A person may not make or
distribute obscene materials and students may not make an obscene speech
at a school-sponsored event.

Poland was the second-most tolerant with a median score of 5.66,
followed by Spain and the United Kingdom with median scores of 5.62 and
4.78 respectively."

Scores out of 8, so even the most liberal country in the world doesn't
even get 75%. No country has, probably has ever had, complete freedom
of speech, still less France in Voltaire's time. If he really had lived
by that quote mistakenly attributed to him in a country ruled by
absolute monarchs, he would have died very young, but actually he lived
to a good old age.

> +1

-100

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 27/10/2021 21:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 20:57, lew wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 19:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Williams point is that the quote stands no matter who may or may not
>>> have uttered it,
>>
>> But it's not a quote; it's a piece of fiction, attributed to a person
>> who may well have believed the opposite.
>
> So are all quotes.
>
> 11 years ago I posted something in IIRC the daily Telegraph linking to a
> paper I had written in my real name, about the problems of renewable
> energy. The first time I had ever used my real name in a document in the
> 'public domain'.

I think I have a copy of that.

> Imagine my surprise to discover that I (real name) 'was a *well known*
> climate denier, whose opinions had been completely refuted in 'skeptical
> science', and was in the pay of an oil company'!

Whereas in the past I have quoted your own lies about climate change
back at you, and can still the post to quote from, if you like.

> Everything is fiction, at one level or another. Heck I have had people
> say to me 'you said to me once that XXXX...and I have never forgotten
> it.' and I have zero recollection of ever saying it.

See above.

> What counts is the narrative...

But here the narrative is bollocks, as I've explained in another post.

>>> Many famous quotes are hearsay - "let them eat cake (brioche)" is
>>> one. Occams  famous razor is another.
>>
>> True, but a non-sequitur.
>
> Not at all, it is very much a sequitur. Good sayings are valuable
> things, no matter who made them up - and nearly all are made up.
>
> Attributing them to someone famous is a useful aide-memoire.

Here's one for you to consider: "History is bunk!", as you've almost
implicitly admitted above.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 27/10/2021 21:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.

Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?

--
Lew

Not sure what happened there, should have been something like ...

On 27/10/2021 21:30, Java Jive wrote:
>
> Whereas in the past I have quoted your own lies about climate change
> back at you, and can still

.... repost them back at you ...

> if you like.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 27/10/2021 22:23, lew wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 21:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.
>
> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?
>

All generalisations are false.

On 27/10/2021 23:32, Indy Jess John wrote:

>>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.
>>
>> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?
>>
>
> All generalisations are false.

But that's a generalisation.
--
Lew

lew <lew@none.org> wrote
> Indy Jess John wrote

>>>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.

>>> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?

>> All generalisations are false.
> But that's a generalisation.

Whoosh.

On 27/10/2021 22:23, lew wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 21:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.
>
> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?
>
Yes

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 27/10/2021 23:32, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 22:23, lew wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 21:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.
>>
>> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?
>>
>
> All generalisations are false.
>
Is that a generalisation?

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 27/10/2021 23:49, lew wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 23:32, Indy Jess John wrote:
>
>>>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.
>>>
>>> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?
>>>
>>
>> All generalisations are false.
>
> But that's a generalisation.
>  --
> Lew

Joking apart. the key to paradox is statements that are self referential
like:

'this statement is a lie'

'does the set of all sets contain itself?'

and so on.

Paradox only really exists in the world of Boolean logic.

Statements about the RealWorld™ are always only approximately true, and
never demonstrably true,

Even Cartesian bollocks like 'I think, therefore I am' is completely
open to arguments about what existence means, and the nature of the self.

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 28/10/2021 09:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> Even Cartesian bollocks like 'I think, therefore I am' is completely
> open to arguments about what existence means, and the nature of the self.

I am, therefore I think ... is this putting Descartes before de horse?

On 28/10/2021 09:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>> Everything is fiction, at one level or another.
>>
>> Is the above statement fiction, at one level or another?
>>
> Yes

If it is fiction it is false and so not true.

--
Lew