Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t73ej1$kid$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:56:49 on Mon, 30 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>> How would you get from a TfL platform to TL at St-P without touching out
>> and in? Or at Blackfriars? It's possible at Farringdon, but you'd have to
>> walk past yellow card validators to do it.
>
> The use-case at StP is someone with an Oyster used for travelling around
> inside London, but holding a paper ticket from London Terminals which
> is therefore only valid from StPancras Thameslink towards Luton/
> Peterborough/Cambridge and beyond.
>
> They need to touch-out of the Oyster realm (having most immediately
> arrived via Farringdon), to avoid an incomplete journey penalty.

If boarding the TL train at SPI, they would have had to touch out of
TfL-land to get to the TL platform. If changing at Farringdon, they would
touch out there.

On 14/06/2022 10:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t73ej1$kid$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:56:49 on Mon, 30 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>> How would you get from a TfL platform to TL at St-P without touching out
>> and in?  Or at Blackfriars?  It's possible at Farringdon, but you'd
>> have to
>> walk past yellow card validators to do it.
>
> The use-case at StP is someone with an Oyster used for travelling around
> inside London, but holding a paper ticket from London Terminals which
> is therefore only valid from StPancras Thameslink towards Luton/
> Peterborough/Cambridge and beyond.
>
> They need to touch-out of the Oyster realm (having most immediately
> arrived via Farringdon), to avoid an incomplete journey penalty.
>
> While I haven't checked the equivalent south-of-the-river, it's not
> impossible there are paper tickets from London Terminals to places like
> Southampton with a similar on-platform change* from a train that's
> arrived from City Thameslink and a need to touch out from an Oyster.

To be picky, not to Southampton, or indeed anywhere west of Portsmouth.
Exception would be a track basher going deliberately the long way round
to get to those places.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-06-14 09:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t73ej1$kid$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:56:49 on Mon, 30 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>> How would you get from a TfL platform to TL at St-P without touching out
>> and in? Or at Blackfriars? It's possible at Farringdon, but you'd have to
>> walk past yellow card validators to do it.
>
> The use-case at StP is someone with an Oyster used for travelling
> around inside London, but holding a paper ticket from London Terminals
> which
> is therefore only valid from StPancras Thameslink towards Luton/
> Peterborough/Cambridge and beyond.

This eventuality is specifically covered by the "London Thameslink"
destination that covers all stations, from either direction, between St
Pancras, London Bridge and Elephant and Castle. If you want to transfer
between paper and Oyster at Farringdon, that is the correct ticket to
buy. If you are disorganised and did not plan for that eventuality,
there is a high frequency through the core, so you can just grab an
earlier train to StP, exit the gate line with Oyster and immediately
re-enter with the paper ticket (same applies at eg Blackfriars in the
other direction).

> They need to touch-out of the Oyster realm (having most immediately
> arrived via Farringdon), to avoid an incomplete journey penalty.
>
> While I haven't checked the equivalent south-of-the-river, it's not
> impossible there are paper tickets from London Terminals to places like
> Southampton with a similar on-platform change* from a train that's
> arrived from City Thameslink and a need to touch out from an Oyster.
>
> * I say change, but if you knew where the validator was you might just
> be able to hop off the train and back on again.

Faringdon is the only location this could potentially occur, as all
other points where LU and DLR serices meet with inside-the-gateline
connections, tickets to "London Terminals" for a plausible onward
journey are valid, and aside from Crossrail, every such station I have
encountered has yellow Oyster validators specifically to allow the
Oyster journey to be completed. Taking your Southampton example, a
London Termianls to Southampton ticket is valid via basically any
London Terminus on the 3rd rail network, and as far north on Thameslink
as City Thameslink (a hangover from Holborn Viaduct). Points beyond, eg
Wimbledon, are already on a permitted route. Aside from Crossrail, I'm
not aware of any point at which you can connect "inside the gateline"
between LU or DLR and NR that doesn't have strategicaly placed Oyster
validators specifically to cover this eventuality. For Farringdon, in
either direction, the get an earlier train and do a quick out and in at
either St Pancras or Blackfriars solves the problem.

Robin

On Tue, 31 May 2022 18:55:10 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-31 15:33:30 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t4tb9ht4tq1686jem3cgtdgeclsiur3tqo@4ax.com>, at 12:02:30 on
>> Tue, 31 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 31 May 2022 07:21:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> iirc there's a gate line in the passages between Waterloo East and
>>>> Southwark, but if you subsequently go up to the surface and exit to the
>>>> street at Southwark, you are not charged extra (nor would one expect to
>>>> be). I think my trip (to test this) was probably arriving on National
>>>> Rail at Waterloo, then walking up to Waterloo East, through and then
>>>> back down to Southwark.
>>>>
>>>>>> The latest tube map is confusing in the City because (putting aside for
>>>>>> a moment the cost-cut lifts to Barbican Subsurface, although no doubt
>>>>>> one could move to the other platform without leaving the building),
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed you can, but not step-free.
>>>>
>>>> "Step free", suddenly?
>>>>
>>>> But digressing, Barbican is a Green"A".
>>>>
>>>> <https://content.tfl.gov.uk/step-free-tube-guide-map.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> Although that translates to:
>>>>
>>>> Step-free access to Circle, H&C and Metropolitan lines westbound;
>>>> requires a 140m journey via street to <thread convergence>
>>>> Farringdon’s Long Lane entrance.
>>>>
>>>> Thus the Green"A" means you can get to the westbound subsurface platform
>>>> via Farringdon and the secret lift. Why you would ever want to do that,
>>>> rather than board a westbound subsurface train *at* Farringdon, I leave
>>>> as an exercise for pub-quizzers.
>>>>
>>>> [Ans= you need platform staff at Farringdon to use a ramp to get onto
>>>> the underground trains]
>>>
>>> Here's a use case: let's say you boarded a Liz train with luggage at
>>> Abbey Wood, and were headed to, say, Eurostar at St
>>> Pancras. You'd be at the rear of the 345, so it makes sense to take the
>>> Barbican exit at Farringdon,
>>
>> Do you mean the Long Lane exit?
>
>No, that would be for entering Farringdon from street level, rather
>than arriving at Farringdon on a Liz line train.
>
>>> and use the lifts to the westbound Barbican SSL platform.
>>
>> Perhaps not, just the eastbound end of Farringdon Station to the bottom
>> of the "secret lift".
>
>Geoff Marshall's video on Farringdon Station shows the "secret lift" is
>accessed by entering the now disused "widened lines" running tunnel,
>which is on the inner rail/westbound platform of Barbican. The "step
>free access guide" you posted a link to upthread confirms this:
>
>"Barbican: Step-free access to Circle, H&C and Metropolitan lines
>westbound A requires a 140m journey via street to Farringdon’s Long
>Lane entrance. "

The 'secret lift' doesn't encroach at all on the CWL running tunnel, which is intended to be used as LU S7 sidings. It's
entirely on the end of the CWL platform:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52115120820/in/album-72177720299439052/>

In message <t75glf$i4v$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:31 on Tue, 31 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 May 2022 16:14:31 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t74ifg$l24$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:09:20 on Tue, 31 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Not all "walking routes" are on the surface, see discussion elsewhere
>>>> about Canary Wharf.
>>>
>>> On that narrow point, if the connections at Canary Wharf (including West
>>> India Quay DLR) were not intended to indicate a surface transfer, I'd
>>> expect them to be double-lines, like Bank-Monument.
>>>
>>> The fact you can *also* walk through a subsurface shopping centre, isn't
>>> within TfL's purview.
>>
>> And is access through that subsurface shopping centre available at all
>> times?
>>
>> One of my favourite shortcuts between a regular bus route and
>> Vancouver's (admittedly minuscule) rapid transit system involves
>> walking through a shopping precinct under several office towers, thus
>> saving two longish blocks in the rain.
>>
>> However, that's open only Mon-Fri, and I'm not sure of the evening
>> hours for those days.
>
>The Canary Wharf mall will be open for much longer than that, seven days a
>week, but I'd imagine it may be closed in the early mornings even though
>the trains are running and the stations open.
>
>One curiosity about that area is that it's all privately owned (originally
>Canadian, now mainly Qatari and North American), with its own private
>security force with very police-like uniforms. Photography is much more
>restricted than if the space were public (you can see how Google Streetview
>was largely kept out of what look like normal, public roads, but are
>actually in the private estate). So, even if you walk between the stations
>on the surface, the roads and paths you follow are all still in the
>restricted private area.

This is road trip part #2. The area is quite complex to navigate, due to
being on several (perhaps as many as four) levels, and a complete
absence of not only opening-hours on the doors to the sub-surface
sections, but no maps/guides such as you'd normally expect in a mall to
tell you where particular retail outlets might be.

I entered at 'roadway' level (which is in effect sub-surface for the
complex itself) through a barely-marked door halfway between (but the
opposite side of the road, rather than off the ticket hall) for
EL-Canary-Wharf's two exits.

Having decided to go all "21st Century" I had my destination programmed
into Google Maps on my smartphone. But every time I got within 100m of
it, there was nothing to be seen, just corridors and often boarded-up
retail units. Trying to retrace steps just kept on saying "you missed
it, do a u-turn", back to where it wasn't.

Eventually I gave up, went outside, and phoned my lunch-date from a
low-level outdoor plaza near the Alchemist pub. They directed me up to
roadway level, and then up again to the first (not ground) floor of a
nearby building on that level. Complete failure of Google Maps to
understand three-dimensions.

We later looked at some "layered" maps of the mall, and concluded that
while it might be possible to navigate between all the stations without
venturing 'outdoors', it would involve knowing *exactly* what route to
follow, including several ups and downs.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t75glf$i4v$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:31 on Tue, 31 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 31 May 2022 16:14:31 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t74ifg$l24$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:09:20 on Tue, 31 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Not all "walking routes" are on the surface, see discussion elsewhere
>>>>> about Canary Wharf.
>>>>
>>>> On that narrow point, if the connections at Canary Wharf (including West
>>>> India Quay DLR) were not intended to indicate a surface transfer, I'd
>>>> expect them to be double-lines, like Bank-Monument.
>>>>
>>>> The fact you can *also* walk through a subsurface shopping centre, isn't
>>>> within TfL's purview.
>>>
>>> And is access through that subsurface shopping centre available at all
>>> times?
>>>
>>> One of my favourite shortcuts between a regular bus route and
>>> Vancouver's (admittedly minuscule) rapid transit system involves
>>> walking through a shopping precinct under several office towers, thus
>>> saving two longish blocks in the rain.
>>>
>>> However, that's open only Mon-Fri, and I'm not sure of the evening
>>> hours for those days.
>>
>> The Canary Wharf mall will be open for much longer than that, seven days a
>> week, but I'd imagine it may be closed in the early mornings even though
>> the trains are running and the stations open.
>>
>> One curiosity about that area is that it's all privately owned (originally
>> Canadian, now mainly Qatari and North American), with its own private
>> security force with very police-like uniforms. Photography is much more
>> restricted than if the space were public (you can see how Google Streetview
>> was largely kept out of what look like normal, public roads, but are
>> actually in the private estate). So, even if you walk between the stations
>> on the surface, the roads and paths you follow are all still in the
>> restricted private area.
>
> This is road trip part #2. The area is quite complex to navigate, due to
> being on several (perhaps as many as four) levels, and a complete
> absence of not only opening-hours on the doors to the sub-surface
> sections, but no maps/guides such as you'd normally expect in a mall to
> tell you where particular retail outlets might be.
>
> I entered at 'roadway' level (which is in effect sub-surface for the
> complex itself) through a barely-marked door halfway between (but the
> opposite side of the road, rather than off the ticket hall) for
> EL-Canary-Wharf's two exits.
>
> Having decided to go all "21st Century" I had my destination programmed
> into Google Maps on my smartphone. But every time I got within 100m of
> it, there was nothing to be seen, just corridors and often boarded-up
> retail units. Trying to retrace steps just kept on saying "you missed
> it, do a u-turn", back to where it wasn't.
>
> Eventually I gave up, went outside, and phoned my lunch-date from a
> low-level outdoor plaza near the Alchemist pub. They directed me up to
> roadway level, and then up again to the first (not ground) floor of a
> nearby building on that level. Complete failure of Google Maps to
> understand three-dimensions.
>
> We later looked at some "layered" maps of the mall, and concluded that
> while it might be possible to navigate between all the stations without
> venturing 'outdoors', it would involve knowing *exactly* what route to
> follow, including several ups and downs.

If I go to the right zoom level, Google maps offers me floorplans of four
different levels of that area (-1, 0, 1, 2).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t75glf$i4v$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:31 on Tue, 31 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 31 May 2022 16:14:31 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t74ifg$l24$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:09:20 on Tue, 31 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Not all "walking routes" are on the surface, see discussion elsewhere
>>>>> about Canary Wharf.
>>>>
>>>> On that narrow point, if the connections at Canary Wharf (including West
>>>> India Quay DLR) were not intended to indicate a surface transfer, I'd
>>>> expect them to be double-lines, like Bank-Monument.
>>>>
>>>> The fact you can *also* walk through a subsurface shopping centre, isn't
>>>> within TfL's purview.
>>>
>>> And is access through that subsurface shopping centre available at all
>>> times?
>>>
>>> One of my favourite shortcuts between a regular bus route and
>>> Vancouver's (admittedly minuscule) rapid transit system involves
>>> walking through a shopping precinct under several office towers, thus
>>> saving two longish blocks in the rain.
>>>
>>> However, that's open only Mon-Fri, and I'm not sure of the evening
>>> hours for those days.
>>
>> The Canary Wharf mall will be open for much longer than that, seven days a
>> week, but I'd imagine it may be closed in the early mornings even though
>> the trains are running and the stations open.
>>
>> One curiosity about that area is that it's all privately owned (originally
>> Canadian, now mainly Qatari and North American), with its own private
>> security force with very police-like uniforms. Photography is much more
>> restricted than if the space were public (you can see how Google Streetview
>> was largely kept out of what look like normal, public roads, but are
>> actually in the private estate). So, even if you walk between the stations
>> on the surface, the roads and paths you follow are all still in the
>> restricted private area.
>
> This is road trip part #2. The area is quite complex to navigate, due to
> being on several (perhaps as many as four) levels, and a complete
> absence of not only opening-hours on the doors to the sub-surface
> sections, but no maps/guides such as you'd normally expect in a mall to
> tell you where particular retail outlets might be.
>
> I entered at 'roadway' level (which is in effect sub-surface for the
> complex itself) through a barely-marked door halfway between (but the
> opposite side of the road, rather than off the ticket hall) for
> EL-Canary-Wharf's two exits.
>
> Having decided to go all "21st Century" I had my destination programmed
> into Google Maps on my smartphone. But every time I got within 100m of
> it, there was nothing to be seen, just corridors and often boarded-up
> retail units. Trying to retrace steps just kept on saying "you missed
> it, do a u-turn", back to where it wasn't.
>
> Eventually I gave up, went outside, and phoned my lunch-date from a
> low-level outdoor plaza near the Alchemist pub. They directed me up to
> roadway level, and then up again to the first (not ground) floor of a
> nearby building on that level. Complete failure of Google Maps to
> understand three-dimensions.
>
> We later looked at some "layered" maps of the mall, and concluded that
> while it might be possible to navigate between all the stations without
> venturing 'outdoors', it would involve knowing *exactly* what route to
> follow, including several ups and downs.

Not at all.

Last week, I found that it's very easy to walk between the Jubilee and EL
stations by simply following the clear signs (turn right at HSBC, left at
Waitrose, as per the signs). The route was under cover throughout, and
easy, without using any maps, with no prep, no tech, no changes of level,
and no stairs. It certainly could be shorter, but not easier.

In message <U-B*+ijPy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 17:08:26 on Sat,
28 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6skms$1a9$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:20 on Sat, 28 May
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> >and a whole lot of other stuff (like the more distant parts of the
>> >Elizabeth line, and certain other NR suburban services, as well as a
>> >lot of non-London buses). Rather than re-inventing the wheel, the
>> >solution would be to convert Oyster into effectively a London Brand of
>> >prepay credit card. That would also finally enable to promise from 20
>> >years ago of being able to use Oyster to pay for non-transport related
>> >things, that quietly died a death when banking related legislation got
>> >in the way.
>>
>> And how would a TfL prepaid credit card (called son-of-Oyster, or
>> whatever) be able to evade those same TfL-must-register-as-a-bank rules?
>
>Have it issued by a bank. eg Barclays TfL prepaid Mastercard.
>Prepaid cards are already what travellers are told to use in lieu of cash,
>so just do a deal with a bank and sell those at stations (eg TfL branded
>vending machines). TfL doesn't really want to handle money (eg credit
>balances) so just hand that over to a bank.
>
>If machines will give you a journey printout for an Oyster, they should be
>enabled for CCC and putative TfL Mastercard too (assuming no security issues
>with doing so).
>
>> Many (most? all?) former Oyster pads now take ITSO cards (because
>> out-boundary Travelcards have to be facilitated), and they might be a
>> better and exiting choice of 'token' to replace Oyster.
>
>I suppose one issue is a card as a repository for entitlements like Freedom
>Passes, Railcards and Travelcards. I suppose the backend can attach all
>those to a CCC these days? I'm not sure what happens when your card expires
>/ you close your bank account - there must be a way to transfer them to a
>different card?
>
>ITSO tokens would be fine for transactions where no payment is involved (eg
>season tickets and Freedom Passes) but can they do stored value? Who 'owns'
>the balance on them? What happens if you go out of zone, how do you pay for
>your extra travel?

Apologies for late reply, that posting slipped through a wormhole
somewhere.

Yes, ITSO can have a cash purse (in fact I have £20 on one to use on
buses in Birmingham - I had to load £10 onto it before they'd issue it,
and then they had a promotional scheme where they doubled whatever you
had).

keyGo is also a PAYG that's available across much (but not all) of GTR's
network (inherited from when they only operated Southern) and some south
coastal buses. It's not a purse, but is linked to a credit/debit card
which they check is still active when you start your journey, by making
a 1p charge.

It has a £25 "incomplete journey" penalty, which is perhaps a bit steep
if using it on a bus [see today's announcement, but not a policy -
because No10 said no new policies before 5th Sept - of a £2 flat bus
fare].

As for attaching things to CCC, TfL which has the longest and deepest
experience of such things, still doesn't allow attaching a railcard, as
far as I know. But keyGo does!

Moving on: "Can I use a combination of keyGo and a paper ticket as my
journey goes beyond the keyGo area"

No. We would recommend that you buy a valid paper ticket for the
whole journey. Otherwise you would need to get off a train and
touch out at the end of the Key area, and then back in at the
same station in order o continue your journey outside of The Key
Smartcard enabled area.

So actually that's "yes", but it's a bit inconvenient. See earlier
discussions of changing between CCC|Oyster and paper tickets at
Farringdon/SPILL.

As for changing credit cards, keyGo (quite likely others too) say:

Log in to your keyGo account online and update with your new
card details as soon as you have them. If your card expires and
you use keyGo, your keyGo account will be closed and prevent you
from further travel.

I think what they mean is prevent you paying with keyGo, they aren't
putting you under house arrest.

and: Please ensure you have sufficient funds in your account and your card
details are kept up to date. If not, we may close your keyGo account.

You must keep your payment card details up to date.

--
Roland Perry