A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a 10-mile
journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s prosecution of him
for fare evasion.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journey-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-to-court-4353701

Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> SOT: Rail fare evader's £7 journey through Yorkshire ends up costing him £500
>

What's "SOT" about that (presumably 'semi-off topic'?)?

It seems Somewhat On Topic, to me?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a 10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>
> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journey-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-to-court-4353701

I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in the Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on whether ticket machines are working or not.

I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy tickets. The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I should use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are down?) to buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of the duplicates. This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can one do?

But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it also appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on this. Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but only for some types of transaction. Not very satisfactory.

--
Clive Page

On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
> On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>> 10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>> prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>
>> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journey-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-to-court-4353701
>
> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in the
> Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on whether
> ticket machines are working or not.
>
> I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
> local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
> often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
> pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
> tickets.  The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I should
> use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are down?) to
> buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of the
> duplicates.  This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can one do?
>
> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it also
> appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on this.
> Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but only for
> some types of transaction.  Not very satisfactory.
>
Sadly, it's just another example of rail operators failing to provide
reasonable opportunity for passengers to be able to buy a 'ticket'and
then seeking to penalise them when they are unable to(through no fault
of the passenger).

No wonder these companies lose passengers to cars and bus modes, you
could be forgiven for thinking they don't want passengers at all!

Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>>> 10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>>> prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>>
>>> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journey-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-to-court-4353701
>>
>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in the
>> Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on whether
>> ticket machines are working or not.
>>
>> I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
>> local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
>> often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
>> pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
>> tickets.  The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I should
>> use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are down?) to
>> buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of the
>> duplicates.  This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can one do?
>>
>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it also
>> appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on this.
>> Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but only for
>> some types of transaction.  Not very satisfactory.
>>
> Sadly, it's just another example of rail operators failing to provide
> reasonable opportunity for passengers to be able to buy a 'ticket'and
> then seeking to penalise them when they are unable to(through no fault
> of the passenger).
>
> No wonder these companies lose passengers to cars and bus modes, you
> could be forgiven for thinking they don't want passengers at all!
>

Why would they care? They don't see any of the fare revenue.

On 30/09/2023 12:42, Recliner wrote:
> Jack Harry Teesdale <noreply492000-medic@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>>> On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>>>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>>>> 10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>>>> prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journey-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-to-court-4353701
>>>
>>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in the
>>> Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on whether
>>> ticket machines are working or not.
>>>
>>> I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
>>> local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
>>> often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
>>> pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
>>> tickets.  The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I should
>>> use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are down?) to
>>> buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of the
>>> duplicates.  This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can one do?
>>>
>>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>>> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it also
>>> appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on this.
>>> Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but only for
>>> some types of transaction.  Not very satisfactory.
>>>
>> Sadly, it's just another example of rail operators failing to provide
>> reasonable opportunity for passengers to be able to buy a 'ticket'and
>> then seeking to penalise them when they are unable to(through no fault
>> of the passenger).
>>
>> No wonder these companies lose passengers to cars and bus modes, you
>> could be forgiven for thinking they don't want passengers at all!
>>
>
> Why would they care? They don't see any of the fare revenue.
>

I expect it's part of the ToC's contract to devote certain resources to
catch "dodgers".

I take a photograph as proof if I cannot obtain a ticket from the machine.

Some years ago I travelled from Cogan railway station to Cheltenham Spa
railway station before I was able to collect my tickets at my
destination. Fortunately I had a copy of the email acknowledgement with
me. (Before anyone asks I didn't have sufficient time to collect my
tickets at Cardiff Central railway station.)

In message <knqc61F79m6U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:38:56 on Sat, 30
Sep 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>>10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>>prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>
>>https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journe
>>y-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-t
>>o-court-4353701
>
>I've nothing to say on this particular case,

It's often the case in disputes like this that the person decides to
stop throwing good money after bad in the face of the implacable
bureaucracy, and falsely pleads guilty, just to get on with their life
and in this case cost only £500 rather than £1000, if he had no means
to *prove* the TVM was broken [take pictures, something a phone *is*
useful for in the rail ticketing environment].

I too have experienced broken TVMs at a Northern station in a compulsory
ticket zone (Wakefield Westgate) but the conductor was happy to sell me
a ticket on the train. As it happens she insisted the price was about 4x
what I'd previously looked up, and refused to budge even when I showed
her the relevant brfares.com page on my laptop. "My portable ticket
machine says NO". So that's a mis-selling claim, which I again haven't
yet had time to take up with the TOC.

>but there is a claim in the Yorkshire Post article that management has
>real-time data on whether ticket machines are working or not.
>
>I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
>local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
>often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
>pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
>tickets. The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I should
>use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are down?) to
>buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of the
>duplicates. This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can one do?

Drifting topic slightly, my wife and I met my daughter in London just
over a week ago, and ran some errands. The plan was for my wife and I
then to travel on see my friend who I heard yesterday has just been
moved to the hospice in Guildford (see thread "I've lost my sense of
humour now"). But my wife was tired and decided to go back home, and my
daughter came with me instead.

I had pre-purchased all the tickets, to avoid hassle at the station(s)
en-route, having suffered a rash of broken ticket machines recently, and
even missed one train because I took too long failing to get a TVM to
issue me an off-peak ticket "too early" (there's an easement at that
particular station which they seem not to have programmed in, but I'm
still looking into that).

Anyway, I have a Senior Railcard, my wife a Disabled one, and my
daughter a Young Persons. So we had the "wrong kind of ticket" for my
companion on that Waterloo-Guildford leg. Imagine my surprise when I
went to the GWR ticket office at Waterloo that they refused to change
the ticket (in effect refund one and use the exact same funds to buy a
new ticket) on the grounds that I'd bought the original from not-GWR and
would have to travel back to GTR-land to make such an exchange.

So there was a choice to busk it and see if we were stopped, or buy a
new YP ticket and later attempt to get a refund for the Disabled one.
Because life is already complicated enough at the moment, I went for the
latter, and I still haven't had time to approach GTR about the refund,
not least because the nearest manned GTR station is an hour's drive away
from home.

>But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it
>also appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on
>this. Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but
>only for some types of transaction. Not very satisfactory.

I presume comms failure (which I have observed at other GTR stations) is
the very thing which prevents the ticket machine from sending a message
to GTR control that it's broken. Such a classic workflow failure I
suspect it deserves greater publicity.

And as far as I can tell, GTR have no process in place to look at
transactions on their TVMs in real time, let alone daily, and wonder
"hmm, nothing sold by that usually busy TVM yesterday, I wonder if it's
broken". Similarly, it would be possible (if they had the inclination)
to look at collections from a TVM, and notice from the back office
systems, which control would still have comms with, that say starting at
6am one day, it had issued no pre-purchased tickets, when you'd expect
it to have done dozens.

In any event, sometimes you get a different kind of multi-TOC failure.

When I arrived at Stansted airport a couple of weeks ago without a
ticket because the GTR machine at the station I started from was broken
(which GTR didn't know at the time, but even if they did, they would not
have broadcast that to GA staff), The GA staff at Stansted were
initially refusing to sell me a ticket (rather than charge a penalty
fare) despite me approaching them first and asking to buy a ticket. It
was only when I said I'd call the police to stop them harassing me, they
relented.

Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
queue after queue one encounters at airports.

From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average three
times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a phone,
than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have tickets on
phones, they keep insisting.
--
Roland Perry

In message <uf9cl5$ul6a$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:16 on Sat, 30 Sep
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>Some years ago I travelled from Cogan railway station to Cheltenham Spa
>railway station before I was able to collect my tickets at my
>destination. Fortunately I had a copy of the email acknowledgement
>with me. (Before anyone asks I didn't have sufficient time to collect
>my tickets at Cardiff Central railway station.)

Long ago there was a thread here about the concept of 'buying or
collecting tickets at the first opportunity' and someone who had been
told that would in fact be an interchange station like that, *even* if
it meant missing your connection.
--
Roland Perry

On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <knqc61F79m6U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:38:56 on Sat, 30
> Sep 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>>> 10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>>> prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>>
>>> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journe
>>> y-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-t
>>> o-court-4353701
>>
>> I've nothing to say on this particular case,
>
> It's often the case in disputes like this that the person decides to
> stop throwing good money after bad in the face of the implacable
> bureaucracy, and falsely pleads guilty, just to get on with their life
> and in this case cost only £500 rather than £1000, if he had no means to
> *prove* the TVM was broken [take pictures, something a phone *is* useful
> for in the rail ticketing environment].
>
> I too have experienced broken TVMs at a Northern station in a compulsory
> ticket zone (Wakefield Westgate) but the conductor was happy to sell me
> a ticket on the train. As it happens she insisted the price was about 4x
> what I'd previously looked up, and refused to budge even when I showed
> her the relevant brfares.com page on my laptop. "My portable ticket
> machine says NO". So that's a mis-selling claim, which I again haven't
> yet had time to take up with the TOC.
>
>> but there is a claim in the Yorkshire Post article that management has
>> real-time data on whether ticket machines are working or not.
>>
>> I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
>> local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
>> often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
>> pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
>> tickets.  The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I
>> should use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are
>> down?) to buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of
>> the duplicates.  This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can
>> one do?
>
> Drifting topic slightly, my wife and I met my daughter in London just
> over a week ago, and ran some errands. The plan was for my wife and I
> then to travel on see my friend who I heard yesterday has just been
> moved to the hospice in Guildford (see thread "I've lost my sense of
> humour now"). But my wife was tired and decided to go back home, and my
> daughter came with me instead.
>
> I had pre-purchased all the tickets, to avoid hassle at the station(s)
> en-route, having suffered a rash of broken ticket machines recently, and
> even missed one train because I took too long failing to get a TVM to
> issue me an off-peak ticket "too early" (there's an easement at that
> particular station which they seem not to have programmed in, but I'm
> still looking into that).
>
> Anyway, I have a Senior Railcard, my wife a Disabled one, and my
> daughter a Young Persons. So we had the "wrong kind of ticket" for my
> companion on that Waterloo-Guildford leg. Imagine my surprise when I
> went to the GWR ticket office at Waterloo that they refused to change
> the ticket (in effect refund one and use the exact same funds to buy a
> new ticket) on the grounds that I'd bought the original from not-GWR and
> would have to travel back to GTR-land to make such an exchange.
>
> So there was a choice to busk it and see if we were stopped, or buy a
> new YP ticket and later attempt to get a refund for the Disabled one.
> Because life is already complicated enough at the moment, I went for the
> latter, and I still haven't had time to approach GTR about the refund,
> not least because the nearest manned GTR station is an hour's drive away
> from home.
>
>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it
>> also appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on
>> this.  Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but
>> only for some types of transaction.  Not very satisfactory.
>
> I presume comms failure (which I have observed at other GTR stations) is
> the very thing which prevents the ticket machine from sending a message
> to GTR control that it's broken. Such a classic workflow failure I
> suspect it deserves greater publicity.
>
> And as far as I can tell, GTR have no process in place to look at
> transactions on their TVMs in real time, let alone daily, and wonder
> "hmm, nothing sold by that usually busy TVM yesterday, I wonder if it's
> broken". Similarly, it would be possible (if they had the inclination)
> to look at collections from a TVM, and notice from the back office
> systems, which control would still have comms with, that say starting at
> 6am one day, it had issued no pre-purchased tickets, when you'd expect
> it to have done dozens.
>
> In any event, sometimes you get a different kind of multi-TOC failure.
>
> When I arrived at Stansted airport a couple of weeks ago without a
> ticket because the GTR machine at the station I started from was broken
> (which GTR didn't know at the time, but even if they did, they would not
> have broadcast that to GA staff), The GA staff at Stansted were
> initially refusing to sell me a ticket (rather than charge a penalty
> fare) despite me approaching them first and asking to buy a ticket. It
> was only when I said I'd call the police to stop them harassing me, they
> relented.
>
> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
> perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
> taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
> just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
> station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
> queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>
> From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average three
> times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a phone,
> than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have tickets on
> phones, they keep insisting.

There's a GWR ticket office in Waterloo?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ufb6i3$1eph2$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:19:31 on Sun, 1 Oct
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <knqc61F79m6U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:38:56 on Sat, 30
>>Sep 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>>>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>>>>10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>>>>prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journe
>>>> y-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-t
>>>> o-court-4353701
>>>
>>> I've nothing to say on this particular case,
>> It's often the case in disputes like this that the person decides to
>>stop throwing good money after bad in the face of the implacable
>>bureaucracy, and falsely pleads guilty, just to get on with their life
>>and in this case cost only £500 rather than £1000, if he had no
>>means to *prove* the TVM was broken [take pictures, something a phone
>>*is* useful for in the rail ticketing environment].
>> I too have experienced broken TVMs at a Northern station in a
>>compulsory ticket zone (Wakefield Westgate) but the conductor was
>>happy to sell me a ticket on the train. As it happens she insisted
>>the price was about 4x what I'd previously looked up, and refused to
>>budge even when I showed her the relevant brfares.com page on my
>>laptop. "My portable ticket machine says NO". So that's a mis-selling
>>claim, which I again haven't yet had time to take up with the TOC.
>>
>>> but there is a claim in the Yorkshire Post article that management
>>>has real-time data on whether ticket machines are working or not.
>>>
>>> I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
>>>local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
>>>often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
>>>pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
>>>tickets.  The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I
>>>should use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are
>>>down?) to buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one
>>>of the duplicates.  This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can one do?
>> Drifting topic slightly, my wife and I met my daughter in London
>>just over a week ago, and ran some errands. The plan was for my wife
>>and I then to travel on see my friend who I heard yesterday has just
>>been moved to the hospice in Guildford (see thread "I've lost my
>>sense of humour now"). But my wife was tired and decided to go back
>>home, and my daughter came with me instead.
>> I had pre-purchased all the tickets, to avoid hassle at the
>>station(s) en-route, having suffered a rash of broken ticket machines
>>recently, and even missed one train because I took too long failing
>>to get a TVM to issue me an off-peak ticket "too early" (there's an
>>easement at that particular station which they seem not to have
>>programmed in, but I'm still looking into that).
>> Anyway, I have a Senior Railcard, my wife a Disabled one, and my
>>daughter a Young Persons. So we had the "wrong kind of ticket" for my
>>companion on that Waterloo-Guildford leg. Imagine my surprise when I
>>went to the GWR ticket office at Waterloo that they refused to change
>>the ticket (in effect refund one and use the exact same funds to buy a
>>new ticket) on the grounds that I'd bought the original from not-GWR
>>and would have to travel back to GTR-land to make such an exchange.
>> So there was a choice to busk it and see if we were stopped, or buy
>>a new YP ticket and later attempt to get a refund for the Disabled
>>one. Because life is already complicated enough at the moment, I went
>>for the latter, and I still haven't had time to approach GTR about
>>the refund, not least because the nearest manned GTR station is an
>>hour's drive away from home.
>>
>>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to
>>>communicate with the server which holds details of pre-purchased
>>>tickets and it also appears GTR management does not have
>>>satisfactory information on this.  Maybe they could prove that the
>>>ticket machine are working but only for some types of transaction. 
>>>Not very satisfactory.
>> I presume comms failure (which I have observed at other GTR
>>stations) is the very thing which prevents the ticket machine from
>>sending a message to GTR control that it's broken. Such a classic
>>workflow failure I suspect it deserves greater publicity.
>> And as far as I can tell, GTR have no process in place to look at
>>transactions on their TVMs in real time, let alone daily, and wonder
>>"hmm, nothing sold by that usually busy TVM yesterday, I wonder if
>>it's broken". Similarly, it would be possible (if they had the
>>inclination) to look at collections from a TVM, and notice from the
>>back office systems, which control would still have comms with, that
>>say starting at 6am one day, it had issued no pre-purchased tickets,
>>when you'd expect it to have done dozens.
>> In any event, sometimes you get a different kind of multi-TOC
>>failure.
>> When I arrived at Stansted airport a couple of weeks ago without a
>>ticket because the GTR machine at the station I started from was
>>broken (which GTR didn't know at the time, but even if they did, they
>>would not have broadcast that to GA staff), The GA staff at Stansted
>>were initially refusing to sell me a ticket (rather than charge a
>>penalty fare) despite me approaching them first and asking to buy a
>>ticket. It was only when I said I'd call the police to stop them
>>harassing me, they relented.
>> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
>>perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
>>taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
>>just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
>>station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
>>queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>> From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average
>>three times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a
>>phone, than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have
>>tickets on phones, they keep insisting.
>
>There's a GWR ticket office in Waterloo?

Sorry, SWR.
--
Roland Perry

On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:

> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in the
> Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on whether
> ticket machines are working or not.

I only have experience with the S+B machines, but that kind of
information has been available to staff and management for more than 15
years.

When I used to work for SWT, we could check the status of all machines
in the company. It was a useful way to book up accounts for unstaffed
stations and alert colleagues at staffed out-stations of any problems.

There were certain faults that wouldn't show up, but it was nonetheless
very useful.

Ta,
--
Rob
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational
in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary
to prove it at all." - Avon, Blake's 7

On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after queue after queue one encounters at airports.

My guess is that ticket barrier staff are worried about their jobs - if the barriers worked 100% of the time then most of them could be made redundant. This is why they sometimes set up the barriers to reject various classes of ticket, e.g. those bought with railcards, or off-peak tickets.

>
> From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average three times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a phone, than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have tickets on phones, they keep insisting.

I expect that the rail companies are keen on tickets on the phone as this saves them the cost of the cardboard.

On timing: I see the same at tube barriers: those with Oyster or bank cards just touch and go through. I think (but don't have hard evidence that those with 1st Generation Oyster cards get through faster as all the data are on the card; the 2nd Gen ones involve two-and-fro with their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several seconds slower.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
>> perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
>> taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
>> just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
>> station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
>> queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>
> My guess is that ticket barrier staff are worried about their jobs - if
> the barriers worked 100% of the time then most of them could be made
> redundant. This is why they sometimes set up the barriers to reject
> various classes of ticket, e.g. those bought with railcards, or off-peak tickets.
>
>>
If barriers weren’t periodically set to reject certain tickets and were
unsupervised everyone would be travelling on a child ticket from the next
station down the line. Word soon gets around.

In message <knt0dlFk8vnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:36:37 on Sun, 1 Oct
2023, Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> remarked:
>On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in
>>the Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on
>>whether ticket machines are working or not.
>
>I only have experience with the S+B machines, but that kind of
>information has been available to staff and management for more than 15
>years.
>
>When I used to work for SWT, we could check the status of all machines
>in the company. It was a useful way to book up accounts for unstaffed
>stations and alert colleagues at staffed out-stations of any problems.

How does that work when the TVM has lost connectivity; or are they
dual-homed using mobile data rather than broadband[1]? In which case
they could probably continue vending pre-bought tickets.

I suppose the TVMs could also be trivially equipped with a device to
send an SMS saying "Help, my broadband is off, send an engineer
urgently".

>There were certain faults that wouldn't show up, but it was nonetheless
>very useful.

The fault I last experienced was a screen which said "touch here to
start" and it wouldn't. Whether that was because it was broken (needed
rebooting or whatever), or knew that even if I did touch, there nothing
useful it could do, I have no idea.

A previous one had said "touch here for help", but it turned out was
expecting to deliver some sort of multimedia FAQ, not actually put me in
contact with a person. So that didn't work either.

I get the impression these kiosks (technical name) are designed by
people who have no idea whatsoever about robustness of engineering. Let
alone have fares databases in them which reflect all of what you would
be expecting to buy.

[1] I presume they use commercial broadband rather than a leased line
(very expensive) or proprietary wireless packet data (somewhat last
century's technology).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <knt0dlFk8vnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:36:37 on Sun, 1 Oct
> 2023, Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> remarked:
>> On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in
>>> the Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on
>>> whether ticket machines are working or not.
>>
>> I only have experience with the S+B machines, but that kind of
>> information has been available to staff and management for more than 15
>> years.
>>
>> When I used to work for SWT, we could check the status of all machines
>> in the company. It was a useful way to book up accounts for unstaffed
>> stations and alert colleagues at staffed out-stations of any problems.
>
> How does that work when the TVM has lost connectivity; or are they
> dual-homed using mobile data rather than broadband[1]? In which case
> they could probably continue vending pre-bought tickets.
>
> I suppose the TVMs could also be trivially equipped with a device to
> send an SMS saying "Help, my broadband is off, send an engineer
> urgently".
>
>> There were certain faults that wouldn't show up, but it was nonetheless
>> very useful.
>
> The fault I last experienced was a screen which said "touch here to
> start" and it wouldn't. Whether that was because it was broken (needed
> rebooting or whatever), or knew that even if I did touch, there nothing
> useful it could do, I have no idea.
>
> A previous one had said "touch here for help", but it turned out was
> expecting to deliver some sort of multimedia FAQ, not actually put me in
> contact with a person. So that didn't work either.
>
> I get the impression these kiosks (technical name) are designed by
> people who have no idea whatsoever about robustness of engineering. Let
> alone have fares databases in them which reflect all of what you would
> be expecting to buy.
>
> [1] I presume they use commercial broadband rather than a leased line
> (very expensive) or proprietary wireless packet data (somewhat last
> century's technology).
Don’t railway stations have some sort of private network connectivity? The
passenger displays, tannoy announcements and a whole load of other stuff
needs a network connection.

In message <ufbise$1h7rl$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:49:50 on Sun, 1 Oct
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
>>> perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
>>> taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
>>> just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
>>> station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
>>> queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>>
>> My guess is that ticket barrier staff are worried about their jobs - if
>> the barriers worked 100% of the time then most of them could be made
>> redundant. This is why they sometimes set up the barriers to reject
>> various classes of ticket, e.g. those bought with railcards, or
>>off-peak tickets.
>>
>If barriers weren’t periodically set to reject certain tickets and were
>unsupervised everyone would be travelling on a child ticket from the next
>station down the line. Word soon gets around.

s/periodically/permanently/

But that's not the only problem, they are programmed to reject all
off-peak tickets at peak times, including the ones which are valid to
distant destinations as the result of an easement.
--
Roland Perry

In message <knt0kmFj0d3U2@mid.individual.net>, at 11:40:22 on Sun, 1 Oct
2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
>>perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
>>taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
>>just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
>>station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
>>queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>
>My guess is that ticket barrier staff are worried about their jobs - if
>the barriers worked 100% of the time then most of them could be made
>redundant. This is why they sometimes set up the barriers to reject
>various classes of ticket, e.g. those bought with railcards, or
>off-peak tickets.

I would be astonished if the minimum wage thugs manning the barriers had
any say at all in the way they are programmed.

And remember, Stansted doesn't have any barriers (but almost all pax
will have boarded at a station with barriers). Deliberate decision, or
just another way to passive aggressively irritate passengers?

>> From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average
>>three times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a
>>phone, than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have
>>tickets on phones, they keep insisting.
>
>I expect that the rail companies are keen on tickets on the phone as
>this saves them the cost of the cardboard.

I've never heard that excuse before.

>On timing: I see the same at tube barriers: those with Oyster or bank
>cards just touch and go through. I think (but don't have hard evidence
>that those with 1st Generation Oyster cards get through faster as all
>the data are on the card; the 2nd Gen ones involve two-and-fro with
>their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint recognised,
>then getting the right page shown on the screen, and then operating the
>barrier. This is nearly always several seconds slower.

Especially I expect at somewhere like an airport where they are already
"hands full" with absurd amounts of baggage.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufblet$1ho5l$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:33:49 on Sun, 1 Oct
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <knt0dlFk8vnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:36:37 on Sun, 1 Oct
>> 2023, Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> remarked:
>>> On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in
>>>> the Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on
>>>> whether ticket machines are working or not.
>>>
>>> I only have experience with the S+B machines, but that kind of
>>> information has been available to staff and management for more than 15
>>> years.
>>>
>>> When I used to work for SWT, we could check the status of all machines
>>> in the company. It was a useful way to book up accounts for unstaffed
>>> stations and alert colleagues at staffed out-stations of any problems.
>>
>> How does that work when the TVM has lost connectivity; or are they
>> dual-homed using mobile data rather than broadband[1]? In which case
>> they could probably continue vending pre-bought tickets.
>>
>> I suppose the TVMs could also be trivially equipped with a device to
>> send an SMS saying "Help, my broadband is off, send an engineer
>> urgently".
>>
>>> There were certain faults that wouldn't show up, but it was nonetheless
>>> very useful.
>>
>> The fault I last experienced was a screen which said "touch here to
>> start" and it wouldn't. Whether that was because it was broken (needed
>> rebooting or whatever), or knew that even if I did touch, there nothing
>> useful it could do, I have no idea.
>>
>> A previous one had said "touch here for help", but it turned out was
>> expecting to deliver some sort of multimedia FAQ, not actually put me in
>> contact with a person. So that didn't work either.
>>
>> I get the impression these kiosks (technical name) are designed by
>> people who have no idea whatsoever about robustness of engineering. Let
>> alone have fares databases in them which reflect all of what you would
>> be expecting to buy.
>>
>> [1] I presume they use commercial broadband rather than a leased line
>> (very expensive) or proprietary wireless packet data (somewhat last
>> century's technology).

>Don’t railway stations have some sort of private network connectivity? The
>passenger displays, tannoy announcements and a whole load of other stuff
>needs a network connection.

They sold off the old BR network to private operators a couple of
decades ago (one of my friends was in operations at the receiving
end of the bonus connectivity). I don't know if they've now
re-invented/parallel-plumbed it. But if they have, it's been very
poorly done in terms of robustness.
--
Roland Perry

On 01/10/2023 12:35, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <knt0kmFj0d3U2@mid.individual.net>, at 11:40:22 on Sun, 1 Oct
> 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
>>> perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
>>> taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
>>> just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
>>> station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue
>>> after queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>>
>> My guess is that ticket barrier staff are worried about their jobs -
>> if the barriers worked 100% of the time then most of them could be
>> made redundant.   This is why they sometimes set up the barriers to
>> reject various classes of ticket, e.g. those bought with railcards, or
>> off-peak tickets.
>
> I would be astonished if the minimum wage thugs manning the barriers had
> any say at all in the way they are programmed.
>
> And remember, Stansted doesn't have any barriers (but almost all pax
> will have boarded at a station with barriers). Deliberate decision, or
> just another way to passive aggressively irritate passengers?

Gatwick does have barriers and they're programmed to reject all advance
tickets!

>
>>>   From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average
>>> three times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a
>>> phone, than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have
>>> tickets on phones, they keep insisting.
>>
>> I expect that the rail companies are keen on tickets on the phone as
>> this saves them the cost of the cardboard.
>
> I've never heard that excuse before.
>
>> On timing: I see the same at tube barriers: those with Oyster or bank
>> cards just touch and go through.  I think (but don't have hard
>> evidence that those with 1st Generation Oyster cards get through
>> faster as all the data are on the card; the 2nd Gen ones involve
>> two-and-fro with their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone
>> play about with them, entering their PIN code or getting their
>> fingerprint recognised, then getting the right page shown on the
>> screen, and then operating the barrier.  This is nearly always several
>> seconds slower.
>
> Especially I expect at somewhere like an airport where they are already
> "hands full" with absurd amounts of baggage.

On 01/10/2023 11:36, Robert wrote:
> On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in
>> the Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on
>> whether ticket machines are working or not.
>
> I only have experience with the S+B machines, but that kind of
> information has been available to staff and management for more than 15
> years.
>
> When I used to work for SWT, we could check the status of all machines
> in the company. It was a useful way to book up accounts for unstaffed
> stations and alert colleagues at staffed out-stations of any problems.
>
> There were certain faults that wouldn't show up, but it was nonetheless
> very useful.
>

One thing that puzzles me about SWT machines, I can buy (or collect) a
ticket from the machine at Guildford and the barrier immediately rejects
it, as does the ones at Waterloo. The TfL barriers are quite happy with
it, as are the ones at Euston or Kings Cross or wherever!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <knqc61F79m6U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:38:56 on Sat, 30
> Sep 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
> [snip]
>
>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it
>> also appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on
>> this. Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but
>> only for some types of transaction. Not very satisfactory.
>
> I presume comms failure (which I have observed at other GTR stations) is
> the very thing which prevents the ticket machine from sending a message
> to GTR control that it's broken. Such a classic workflow failure I
> suspect it deserves greater publicity.
>
> And as far as I can tell, GTR have no process in place to look at
> transactions on their TVMs in real time, let alone daily, and wonder
> "hmm, nothing sold by that usually busy TVM yesterday, I wonder if it's
> broken". Similarly, it would be possible (if they had the inclination)
> to look at collections from a TVM, and notice from the back office
> systems, which control would still have comms with, that say starting at
> 6am one day, it had issued no pre-purchased tickets, when you'd expect
> it to have done dozens.

Any competent protocol designer would include a watchdog/keepalive poll
somewhere in the system so that TVMs that didn’t respond could be noted in
a suitable way.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 08:19:31 +0100, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 01/10/2023 05:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <knqc61F79m6U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:38:56 on Sat, 30
>> Sep 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> On 29/09/2023 17:48, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
>>>> A Yorkshire rail passenger has ended up paying almost £500 for a
>>>> 10-mile journey through Yorkshire after contesting Northern’s
>>>> prosecution of him for fare evasion.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rail-fare-evaders-ps7-journe
>>>> y-through-yorkshire-ends-up-costing-him-ps500-after-northern-take-him-t
>>>> o-court-4353701
>>>
>>> I've nothing to say on this particular case,
>>
>> It's often the case in disputes like this that the person decides to
>> stop throwing good money after bad in the face of the implacable
>> bureaucracy, and falsely pleads guilty, just to get on with their life
>> and in this case cost only £500 rather than £1000, if he had no means to
>> *prove* the TVM was broken [take pictures, something a phone *is* useful
>> for in the rail ticketing environment].
>>
>> I too have experienced broken TVMs at a Northern station in a compulsory
>> ticket zone (Wakefield Westgate) but the conductor was happy to sell me
>> a ticket on the train. As it happens she insisted the price was about 4x
>> what I'd previously looked up, and refused to budge even when I showed
>> her the relevant brfares.com page on my laptop. "My portable ticket
>> machine says NO". So that's a mis-selling claim, which I again haven't
>> yet had time to take up with the TOC.
>>
>>> but there is a claim in the Yorkshire Post article that management has
>>> real-time data on whether ticket machines are working or not.
>>>
>>> I've had several interactions recently with Govia-Thameslink and the
>>> local station manager about that fact that ticket machines at Luton
>>> often (3 times in 3 weeks for me) do not have the ability to disgorge
>>> pre-paid tickets, even though people paying at the machine can buy
>>> tickets.  The GTR response to this is that if it happens again I
>>> should use cash (or maybe a card, would that work if the comms are
>>> down?) to buy another ticket and then work out how to claim for one of
>>> the duplicates.  This seems entirely unreasonable to me, but what can
>>> one do?
>>
>> Drifting topic slightly, my wife and I met my daughter in London just
>> over a week ago, and ran some errands. The plan was for my wife and I
>> then to travel on see my friend who I heard yesterday has just been
>> moved to the hospice in Guildford (see thread "I've lost my sense of
>> humour now"). But my wife was tired and decided to go back home, and my
>> daughter came with me instead.
>>
>> I had pre-purchased all the tickets, to avoid hassle at the station(s)
>> en-route, having suffered a rash of broken ticket machines recently, and
>> even missed one train because I took too long failing to get a TVM to
>> issue me an off-peak ticket "too early" (there's an easement at that
>> particular station which they seem not to have programmed in, but I'm
>> still looking into that).
>>
>> Anyway, I have a Senior Railcard, my wife a Disabled one, and my
>> daughter a Young Persons. So we had the "wrong kind of ticket" for my
>> companion on that Waterloo-Guildford leg. Imagine my surprise when I
>> went to the GWR ticket office at Waterloo that they refused to change
>> the ticket (in effect refund one and use the exact same funds to buy a
>> new ticket) on the grounds that I'd bought the original from not-GWR and
>> would have to travel back to GTR-land to make such an exchange.
>>
>> So there was a choice to busk it and see if we were stopped, or buy a
>> new YP ticket and later attempt to get a refund for the Disabled one.
>> Because life is already complicated enough at the moment, I went for the
>> latter, and I still haven't had time to approach GTR about the refund,
>> not least because the nearest manned GTR station is an hour's drive away
>> from home.
>>
>>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>>> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it
>>> also appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on
>>> this.  Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but
>>> only for some types of transaction.  Not very satisfactory.
>>
>> I presume comms failure (which I have observed at other GTR stations) is
>> the very thing which prevents the ticket machine from sending a message
>> to GTR control that it's broken. Such a classic workflow failure I
>> suspect it deserves greater publicity.
>>
>> And as far as I can tell, GTR have no process in place to look at
>> transactions on their TVMs in real time, let alone daily, and wonder
>> "hmm, nothing sold by that usually busy TVM yesterday, I wonder if it's
>> broken". Similarly, it would be possible (if they had the inclination)
>> to look at collections from a TVM, and notice from the back office
>> systems, which control would still have comms with, that say starting at
>> 6am one day, it had issued no pre-purchased tickets, when you'd expect
>> it to have done dozens.
>>
>> In any event, sometimes you get a different kind of multi-TOC failure.
>>
>> When I arrived at Stansted airport a couple of weeks ago without a
>> ticket because the GTR machine at the station I started from was broken
>> (which GTR didn't know at the time, but even if they did, they would not
>> have broadcast that to GA staff), The GA staff at Stansted were
>> initially refusing to sell me a ticket (rather than charge a penalty
>> fare) despite me approaching them first and asking to buy a ticket. It
>> was only when I said I'd call the police to stop them harassing me, they
>> relented.
>>
>> Incidentally, they don't have automatic barriers at Stansted, and
>> perform the ticket checking manually. When I was there Friday, it was
>> taking them ten minutes to clear the full-Stansted-Express scrum of
>> just-arrived pax off the platform and onto the escalators towards the
>> station. I suppose they were just getting everyone used to queue after
>> queue after queue one encounters at airports.
>>
>> From observing the process, it was clearly taking them on average three
>> times as long to scrutinise each ticket presented to them on a phone,
>> than on a bit of card. So *much* more convenient to have tickets on
>> phones, they keep insisting.
>
>There's a GWR ticket office in Waterloo?
>
It's that shady looking bloke standing beside the machines offering
tickets to the other Reading; not there when there is a Chelsea home
game on when you will find him flogging more lucrative tickets on the
Fulham Road. ;-)

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 12:44:24 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ufblet$1ho5l$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:33:49 on Sun, 1 Oct
>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <knt0dlFk8vnU1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:36:37 on Sun, 1 Oct
>>> 2023, Robert <monstoor@spammedia.com> remarked:
>>>> On 30/09/2023 11:38, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've nothing to say on this particular case, but there is a claim in
>>>>> the Yorkshire Post article that management has real-time data on
>>>>> whether ticket machines are working or not.
>>>>
>>>> I only have experience with the S+B machines, but that kind of
>>>> information has been available to staff and management for more than 15
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> When I used to work for SWT, we could check the status of all machines
>>>> in the company. It was a useful way to book up accounts for unstaffed
>>>> stations and alert colleagues at staffed out-stations of any problems.
>>>
>>> How does that work when the TVM has lost connectivity; or are they
>>> dual-homed using mobile data rather than broadband[1]? In which case
>>> they could probably continue vending pre-bought tickets.
>>>
>>> I suppose the TVMs could also be trivially equipped with a device to
>>> send an SMS saying "Help, my broadband is off, send an engineer
>>> urgently".
>>>
>>>> There were certain faults that wouldn't show up, but it was nonetheless
>>>> very useful.
>>>
>>> The fault I last experienced was a screen which said "touch here to
>>> start" and it wouldn't. Whether that was because it was broken (needed
>>> rebooting or whatever), or knew that even if I did touch, there nothing
>>> useful it could do, I have no idea.
>>>
>>> A previous one had said "touch here for help", but it turned out was
>>> expecting to deliver some sort of multimedia FAQ, not actually put me in
>>> contact with a person. So that didn't work either.
>>>
>>> I get the impression these kiosks (technical name) are designed by
>>> people who have no idea whatsoever about robustness of engineering. Let
>>> alone have fares databases in them which reflect all of what you would
>>> be expecting to buy.
>>>
>>> [1] I presume they use commercial broadband rather than a leased line
>>> (very expensive) or proprietary wireless packet data (somewhat last
>>> century's technology).
>
>>Don’t railway stations have some sort of private network connectivity? The
>>passenger displays, tannoy announcements and a whole load of other stuff
>>needs a network connection.
>
>They sold off the old BR network to private operators a couple of
>decades ago
>
Racal 1995 (doesn't time pass quickly?).

>(one of my friends was in operations at the receiving
>end of the bonus connectivity). I don't know if they've now
>re-invented/parallel-plumbed it. But if they have, it's been very
>poorly done in terms of robustness.
>
Network Rail Telecom but various sources seem to be contradictory
about who currently owns the cables.

In message <ufcopq$2h0eg$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:58 on Sun, 1 Oct
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <knqc61F79m6U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:38:56 on Sat, 30
>> Sep 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> [snip]
>>
>>> But: it appears that this is a failure of the machines to communicate
>>> with the server which holds details of pre-purchased tickets and it
>>> also appears GTR management does not have satisfactory information on
>>> this. Maybe they could prove that the ticket machine are working but
>>> only for some types of transaction. Not very satisfactory.
>>
>> I presume comms failure (which I have observed at other GTR stations) is
>> the very thing which prevents the ticket machine from sending a message
>> to GTR control that it's broken. Such a classic workflow failure I
>> suspect it deserves greater publicity.
>>
>> And as far as I can tell, GTR have no process in place to look at
>> transactions on their TVMs in real time, let alone daily, and wonder
>> "hmm, nothing sold by that usually busy TVM yesterday, I wonder if it's
>> broken". Similarly, it would be possible (if they had the inclination)
>> to look at collections from a TVM, and notice from the back office
>> systems, which control would still have comms with, that say starting at
>> 6am one day, it had issued no pre-purchased tickets, when you'd expect
>> it to have done dozens.
>
>Any competent protocol designer would include a watchdog/keepalive poll
>somewhere in the system so that TVMs that didn’t respond could be noted in
>a suitable way.

Actually, we don't know that's missing, just that when I report a broken
TVM to GTR twitter account they are always surprised, give the
impression they don't believe me, and don't know which one I'm talking
about. And either they break down again soon after, or it takes days to
get fixed.
--
Roland Perry

In message <Q5xzUf4bqPGlFAez@perry.uk>, at 05:50:35 on Sun, 1 Oct 2023,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>When I arrived at Stansted airport a couple of weeks ago without a
>ticket because the GTR machine at the station I started from was broken
>(which GTR didn't know at the time, but even if they did, they would
>not have broadcast that to GA staff), The GA staff at Stansted were
>initially refusing to sell me a ticket (rather than charge a penalty
>fare) despite me approaching them first and asking to buy a ticket. It
>was only when I said I'd call the police to stop them harassing me,
>they relented.

I've now remembered what the problem was. I had got off a train from the
north which had arrived just after a Stansted Express. When I asked to
buy a ticket they asked why I had I hadn't bought one before travelling.

I said it was because the ticket machine was broken, and they robustly
challenged the suggestion saying there were dozens of ticket machines at
Liverpool St and they couldn't possibly have all been broken.

I explained *again* where I'd travelled from, towards the north. Their
response was "lala, I can't hear you".

No idea how they thought I'd got on at barriered LST without a ticket.

When they eventually agreed to sell me a ticket he asked, as if to
check, "So that's a single from LST?" AAAArgh!
--
Roland Perry