In message <ufjb4t$3go6$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:26:53 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then searching through
>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>
>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use them instead?
>>>>
>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>> many of them.

>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for discounted
>>items.

>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>
>Tesco do the same with their club card.

And in the last couple of months my CoOp has started doing the same (but
only for a very few product lines).
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then searching through
>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use them instead?
>>>>>
>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>> many of them.
>>>
>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for discounted items.
>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>
>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>
>>
>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>
>Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was. I
>don’t have a convenient Tesco.

So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
"organ donors").
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>then operating the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>
>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>use Oyster terminals.

>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>properly setup.

>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>reader pad.

>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>(as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>
>Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>a paper ticket

Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?

>and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>code.

I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
reason this takes them several seconds.

It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
height, is preposterous.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufj6jm$2jmv$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:09:26 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>I've going to University railway station next week

Say hello to Ian "Goatherder" Batten.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then searching through
>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>> takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>> especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use them instead?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>> many of them.
>>>>
>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for discounted items.
>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>
>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was. I
>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>
> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
> "organ donors").

Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
- Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded stuff it
used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
- Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
- A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
- Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
Sainsbury’s
- Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
the supermarkets

There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a very
large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll. That’s the big Sainsbury’s
I drive to every week or two to get a large shop. There are Lidls and
Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.

We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then searching through
>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>> takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>> especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use them instead?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for discounted items.
>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>
>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was. I
>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>
>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>> "organ donors").
>
> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded stuff it
> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
> Sainsbury’s
> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
> the supermarkets
>
> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a very
> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll. That’s the big Sainsbury’s
> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop. There are Lidls and
> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>
> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>
> Sam
>

From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple of
miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics. Anything more
needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to Tesco - the Tesco
is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far smaller than most
Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons, Asda, Waitrose etc it is
an overnight ferry journey each way ....

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then searching through
>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>> takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>> especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use them instead?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for discounted items.
>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was. I
>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>
>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>> "organ donors").
>>
>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded stuff it
>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>> Sainsbury’s
>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>> the supermarkets
>>
>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a very
>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll. That’s the big Sainsbury’s
>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop. There are Lidls and
>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>
>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple of
> miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics. Anything more
> needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to Tesco - the Tesco
> is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far smaller than most
> Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons, Asda, Waitrose etc it is
> an overnight ferry journey each way ....

Yep - different places, different ways of life. I remember conversations
with people in the Uists about how they chose furniture and the like - the
answer either by mail order catalogue (beginning to be mostly online by
then, of course) or they’d arrange a trip to the mainland once or twice a
year to do the things they couldn’t do on the islands.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe
>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just use
>>>>>>>> them instead?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for discounted
>>>>>> items.
>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was.  I
>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>
>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>> "organ donors").
>>
>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>> stuff it
>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>> Sainsbury’s
>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>> the supermarkets
>>
>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a
>> very
>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>> Sainsbury’s
>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>
>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple of
> miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics. Anything more
> needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to Tesco - the Tesco
> is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far smaller than most
> Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons, Asda, Waitrose etc it is
> an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>
So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?

On 04.10.23 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>
>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>> recognised,  then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>> then operating  the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds
>>>> slower.
>>>>
>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>> use  Oyster terminals.
>
>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>> properly  setup.
>
>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>> selecting  apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>> reader pad.
>
>>>  I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>> readers.  I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>> allows a  limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>> requiring an  unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>> (as it appears to  vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit
>>> of unlocking the phone  (by finger print) as I approach the gates.
>>> And I have two fingers  registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>> either hand.
>>
>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to
>> find a paper ticket and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier.
>
> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?

[I've restored the full sentence that you cut in half to actually give a
non-deceitful representation of what I wrote]

It is not uncommon for there to be more than one ticket stored together.
For example both the out and return portions of a return ticket. There
is no way to differentiate them by touch. I also can not reliably
identify which side of the ticket has the magnetic stripe on it by touch
(it is possible in the right circumstances, but not reliably in the
brief time available approaching a ticket barrier).

>> If I have a ticket
>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>> code.
>
> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
> reason this takes them several seconds.
>
> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
> height, is preposterous.

Those machines are indeed slow. Railway ticket barriers generally are not.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>
>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>> then operating the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>>
>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>> use Oyster terminals.
>
>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>> properly setup.
>
>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>> reader pad.
>
>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>
>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>> a paper ticket
>
> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>
>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>> code.
>
> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
> reason this takes them several seconds.
>
> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
> height, is preposterous.

Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip? That’s what
the gate’s camera compares against, not a central database of images. (UK
gate wouldn’t have access to non UK passport holder database images). Every
ePassport gate I’ve ever used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even
try to draw your fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.

On Wed, 04 Oct 2023 17:56:33 +0200, Bob wrote:

> On 04.10.23 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>> recognised,  then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>> then operating  the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds
>>>>> slower.
>>>>>
>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>> use  Oyster terminals.

I tried something today. Not having made any changes to settings on my
Samsung with Google Pay, I offered it to the Sainsbury's till still
locked. For 2£95, no problem!

I know it won't work in the pub unlocked, for around 20£.

nib

>>
>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>> properly  setup.
>>
>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>> selecting  apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>> reader pad.
>>
>>>>  I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>> readers.  I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>> allows a  limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>> requiring an  unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>> (as it appears to  vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit
>>>> of unlocking the phone  (by finger print) as I approach the gates.
>>>> And I have two fingers  registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>>> either hand.
>>>
>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to
>>> find a paper ticket and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier.
>>
>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>
> [I've restored the full sentence that you cut in half to actually give a
> non-deceitful representation of what I wrote]
>
> It is not uncommon for there to be more than one ticket stored together.
> For example both the out and return portions of a return ticket. There
> is no way to differentiate them by touch. I also can not reliably
> identify which side of the ticket has the magnetic stripe on it by touch
> (it is possible in the right circumstances, but not reliably in the
> brief time available approaching a ticket barrier).
>
>>> If I have a ticket
>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>> code.
>>
>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For
>> some reason this takes them several seconds.
>>
>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they read
>> the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take milliseconds)
>> before they start to align a camera to your head height, is
>> preposterous.
>
> Those machines are indeed slow. Railway ticket barriers generally are
> not.
>
> Robin

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>> then operating the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>>>
>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>
>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>> properly setup.
>>
>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>> reader pad.
>>
>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>
>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>> a paper ticket
>>
>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>
>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>> code.
>>
>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>
>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>> height, is preposterous.
>
> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip? That’s what
> the gate’s camera compares against, not a central database of images. (UK
> gate wouldn’t have access to non UK passport holder database images). Every
> ePassport gate I’ve ever used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even
> try to draw your fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>

Yes, my experience is that the latest UK ePassport gates are now very good,
better than most foreign ones. I think they've been though several
generations to get this good.

On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe
>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just use
>>>>>>>>> them instead?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was.  I
>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>
>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>> "organ donors").
>>>
>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>> stuff it
>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>> Sainsbury’s
>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>> the supermarkets
>>>
>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a
>>> very
>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>> Sainsbury’s
>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>
>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple of
>> miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics. Anything
>> more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to Tesco - the
>> Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far smaller than
>> most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons, Asda, Waitrose
>> etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>
> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?

It is always a lovely story, but untrue!

Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
miles.

--
Colin

Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with them,
>> entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint recognised, then
>> getting the right page shown on the screen, and then operating the
>> barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>
> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to use
> Oyster terminals.
> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is properly
> setup.
> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and selecting
> apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the reader pad.
>
> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the readers.
> I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only allows a
> limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before requiring an
> unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear (as it appears to
> vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of unlocking the phone
> (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I have two fingers
> registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>
> Mainline services where the ticket is QR code on your phone screen is
> another matter as you have to get the QR code up on the screen. Two
> people travelling together with only 1 device gets tricky. Oxford told
> me to go through first, select the other ticket and hand the phone back
> to my wife.
> I did it the other way, scanned one ticket, sent her through and then
> scanned the 2nd one.
>

One place I have experienced a problem is with barriers (Paris TGV
platforms in my case) where the barcode scanner is also the NFC reader;
with the barcode displayed, the phone detects the NFC and pops up the
wallet screen ready to be authorised (by fingerprint, face or passcode) -
but this removes the barcode from the screen! And it's face-down so you
can't even see it's happened. Others have pointed out that if you have
'express travel' (ie no authorisation required for certain transport
providers) active, you might inadvertently touch-in rather than scanning
your barcode, and as the phone is face-down and the barrier opens, you
won't necessarily realise immediately what's happened. And no, iPhones
don't have a setting to even temporarily disable NFC.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 04/10/2023 22:46, ColinR wrote:
> On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
>> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you
>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens,
>>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just
>>>>>>>>>> use them instead?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it
>>>>>> was.  I
>>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>>
>>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>>> "organ donors").
>>>>
>>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago
>>>> and
>>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>>> stuff it
>>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>>> the supermarkets
>>>>
>>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and
>>>> a very
>>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>>
>>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple
>>> of miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics.
>>> Anything more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to
>>> Tesco - the Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far
>>> smaller than most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons,
>>> Asda, Waitrose etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>>
>> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?
>
> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>
> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
> miles.
>
You've just shattered my illusions! But thanks anyway.

In message <ufjsbb$b26d$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>searching through
>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>> takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>> especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use
>>>>>>>them instead?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>discounted items. They all seem to have been replaced with
>>>>>“Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>
>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was. I
>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>
>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>> "organ donors").
>
>Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>- Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
>now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded stuff it
>used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>- Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>- A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>- Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>Sainsbury’s
>- Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>the supermarkets
>
>There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a very
>large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll. That’s the big
>Sainsbury’s
>I drive to every week or two to get a large shop. There are Lidls and
>Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>
>We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.

I don't understand that last comment. How can the government ban
Edinburgh?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufk1vi$c98p$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:33 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 04.10.23 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>recognised,  then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>then operating  the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>>>
>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>use  Oyster terminals.
>>
>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>properly  setup.
>>
>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>selecting  apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>reader pad.
>>
>>>>  I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>readers.  I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>allows a  limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>requiring an  unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>(as it appears to  vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit
>>>>of unlocking the phone  (by finger print) as I approach the gates.
>>>>And I have two fingers  registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>
>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my
>>>phone, but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined
>>>way of activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to
>>>unlock), I can do that one handed without looking except to show my
>>>face to unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would
>>>take to find a paper ticket and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier.

>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>
>[I've restored the full sentence that you cut in half to actually give
>a non-deceitful representation of what I wrote]

Thanks for calling me deceitful. What disgraceful behaviour.

>It is not uncommon for there to be more than one ticket stored
>together. For example both the out and return portions of a return
>ticket. There is no way to differentiate them by touch.

There's two types of paper ticket:

one-trip, which nowadays are issued as two coupons "outward" and
"return". If you are on the return leg you may not even still have the
outward coupon, but if you do, put it away somewhere. If you are on the
outward leg, put the return coupon away somewhere and only get it out
when you commence the return trip.

rovers (including travelcards etc), there's only the one coupon.

>I also can not reliably identify which side of the ticket has the
>magnetic stripe on it by touch (it is possible in the right
>circumstances, but not reliably in the brief time available approaching
>a ticket barrier).

I tend to glance down at the ticket, which solves that (I presume
you aren't partially sighted, in which case we should reset the
conversation).

>>> If I have a ticket that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to
>>>find it, but generally comparable with the time involved in making
>>>use of a paper-printed QR code.

>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to
>>all airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you
>>have to put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a
>>barcode. For some reason this takes them several seconds.

>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>> height, is preposterous.
>
>Those machines are indeed slow. Railway ticket barriers generally are not.

But the humans who perform the ticket checking at Stansted are very
slow. There really ought to be a "fast track" automated lane for people
with paper tickets or ITSO cards (I don't immediately recall if it's
inside the ever-growing CCC zone).
--
Roland Perry

On 05.10.23 01:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with them,
>>> entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint recognised, then
>>> getting the right page shown on the screen, and then operating the
>>> barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>
>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to use
>> Oyster terminals.
>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is properly
>> setup.
>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and selecting
>> apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the reader pad.
>>
>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the readers.
>> I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only allows a
>> limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before requiring an
>> unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear (as it appears to
>> vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of unlocking the phone
>> (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I have two fingers
>> registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>
>> Mainline services where the ticket is QR code on your phone screen is
>> another matter as you have to get the QR code up on the screen. Two
>> people travelling together with only 1 device gets tricky. Oxford told
>> me to go through first, select the other ticket and hand the phone back
>> to my wife.
>> I did it the other way, scanned one ticket, sent her through and then
>> scanned the 2nd one.
>>
>
> One place I have experienced a problem is with barriers (Paris TGV
> platforms in my case) where the barcode scanner is also the NFC reader;
> with the barcode displayed, the phone detects the NFC and pops up the
> wallet screen ready to be authorised (by fingerprint, face or passcode) -
> but this removes the barcode from the screen! And it's face-down so you
> can't even see it's happened.

I've had this happen in the Netherlands. I found if I held my phone at a
distance and slowly moved it towards the reader, there was a sweet spot
where the screen QR code was read but the phone didn't activate payment
mode. Somewhat frustrating, though.

Robin

In message <ufk2hg$cjdn$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:06:08 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>> then operating the barrier.  This is nearly always several
>>>>>seconds slower.
>>>>>
>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>
>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>> properly setup.
>>
>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>> reader pad.
>>
>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>
>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>> a paper ticket
>>
>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>
>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>> code.
>>
>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>
>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>> height, is preposterous.
>
>Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip? That’s what
>the gate’s camera compares against, not a central database of images.

Yes, of course. But it's not a lot of data [50k PNG which reduces to a
25k JPEG]. I used to have an app which extracted passport photos, and
when other people wanted a digital photo for other purposes I'd
literally send them my passport photo.

I went to a conference about 15yrs ago and we were issued with fairly
typical plastic ID badges, except they had an RFID chip with your photo
on. And when you walked through the entrance it would flash a copy of
the photo up on a screen so the security people could check you weren't
using a stolen card. All without breaking step.

> (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK passport holder database
>images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever used abroad is equally slow.
>Some Dutch ones even try to draw your fingers into the mechanism if you
>aren’t careful.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was just the UK ones. Those in Spain
were as bad. Although Malaga was still doing all passport checking
manually.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufke4v$feth$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:24:15 on Wed, 4 Oct
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>> then operating the barrier.  This is nearly always several
>>>>>>seconds slower.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>
>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>> properly setup.
>>>
>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>> reader pad.
>>>
>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>> a paper ticket
>>>
>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>
>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>> code.
>>>
>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>
>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>> height, is preposterous.
>>
>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>
>Yes, my experience is that the latest UK ePassport gates are now very good,
>better than most foreign ones. I think they've been though several
>generations to get this good.

The ones inbound at Stansted (which look like a standard design)
appeared to be rejecting maybe one in ten people. The first trip last
month mine worked first time, but only perhaps because a person had
asked for my passport and put it on the reader herself - a bit
suspicious they need people like that. I did it myself on the second
trip, and it required two attempts.
--
Roland Perry

On 05.10.23 09:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ufk1vi$c98p$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:33 on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 04.10.23 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>> recognised,  then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>> then operating  the barrier.  This is nearly always several
>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>> use  Oyster terminals.
>>>
>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>> properly  setup.
>>>
>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>> selecting  apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>> reader pad.
>>>
>>>>>  I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>> readers.  I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android
>>>>> only allows a  limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock'
>>>>> before requiring an  unlock. What number of transactions this is is
>>>>> unclear (as it appears to  vary by region/bank), so I've got into
>>>>> the habit of unlocking the phone  (by finger print) as I approach
>>>>> the gates. And I have two fingers  registered to unlock the phone
>>>>> so I can use either hand.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my
>>>> phone,  but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined
>>>> way of  activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID
>>>> to unlock),  I can do that one handed without looking except to show
>>>> my face to  unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it
>>>> would take to  find a paper ticket and orient it correctly for the
>>>> ticket barrier.
>
>>>  Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>
>> [I've restored the full sentence that you cut in half to actually give
>> a non-deceitful representation of what I wrote]
>
> Thanks for calling me deceitful. What disgraceful behaviour.
>
>> It is not uncommon for there to be more than one ticket stored
>> together. For example both the out and return portions of a return
>> ticket. There is no way to differentiate them by touch.
>
> There's two types of paper ticket:
>
> one-trip, which nowadays are issued as two coupons "outward" and
> "return". If you are on the return leg you may not even still have the
> outward coupon, but if you do, put it away somewhere. If you are on the
> outward leg, put the return coupon away somewhere and only get it out
> when you commence the return trip.

Or if you are on a split ticket, and if both are returns, you might end
up with four or more. You may also have a seat reservation coupon that
is, to the touch, indistinguishable from a ticket.

> rovers (including travelcards etc), there's only the one coupon.
>
>> I also can not reliably identify which side of the ticket has the
>> magnetic stripe on it by touch (it is possible in the right
>> circumstances, but not reliably in the brief time available
>> approaching a ticket barrier).
>
> I tend to glance down at the ticket, which solves that (I presume
> you aren't partially sighted, in which case we should reset the
> conversation).

Having to actually look at the ticket(s) and determine which is which
already makes it a slower process than using the phone. Sure, it's not
especially slow (unless you have poor eyesight), but the phone is still
faster.

Robin

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 00:25:46 +0100, Coffee
<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 04/10/2023 22:46, ColinR wrote:
>> On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
>>> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just
>>>>>>>>>>> use them instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it
>>>>>>> was.  I
>>>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>>>> "organ donors").
>>>>>
>>>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago
>>>>> and
>>>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>>>> stuff it
>>>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>>>> the supermarkets
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and
>>>>> a very
>>>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>>>
>>>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple
>>>> of miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics.
>>>> Anything more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to
>>>> Tesco - the Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far
>>>> smaller than most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons,
>>>> Asda, Waitrose etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>>>
>>> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?
>>
>> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>>
>> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
>> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
>> miles.
>>
>You've just shattered my illusions! But thanks anyway.
>
Tales about "the nearest station is Bergen" normally involved travel
warrants etc. from RAF Saxa Vord.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 05.10.23 01:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>
>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with them,
>>>> entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint recognised, then
>>>> getting the right page shown on the screen, and then operating the
>>>> barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>>
>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to use
>>> Oyster terminals.
>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is properly
>>> setup.
>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and selecting
>>> apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the reader pad.
>>>
>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the readers.
>>> I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only allows a
>>> limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before requiring an
>>> unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear (as it appears to
>>> vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of unlocking the phone
>>> (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I have two fingers
>>> registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>
>>> Mainline services where the ticket is QR code on your phone screen is
>>> another matter as you have to get the QR code up on the screen. Two
>>> people travelling together with only 1 device gets tricky. Oxford told
>>> me to go through first, select the other ticket and hand the phone back
>>> to my wife.
>>> I did it the other way, scanned one ticket, sent her through and then
>>> scanned the 2nd one.
>>>
>>
>> One place I have experienced a problem is with barriers (Paris TGV
>> platforms in my case) where the barcode scanner is also the NFC reader;
>> with the barcode displayed, the phone detects the NFC and pops up the
>> wallet screen ready to be authorised (by fingerprint, face or passcode) -
>> but this removes the barcode from the screen! And it's face-down so you
>> can't even see it's happened.
>
> I've had this happen in the Netherlands. I found if I held my phone at a
> distance and slowly moved it towards the reader, there was a sweet spot
> where the screen QR code was read but the phone didn't activate payment
> mode. Somewhat frustrating, though.
>
>

The other technique seems to be to move your phone to the barcode scanner
very quickly, so it can be read before the payment screen pops up. But
switch off express travel mode first, just in case.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <uflpdl$r1me$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:42:44 on Thu, 5 Oct
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 05.10.23 09:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ufk1vi$c98p$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:33 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 04.10.23 15:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> their servers.  Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about
>>>>>>>with them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>recognised,  then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>then operating  the barrier.  This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED
>>>>>>to use  Oyster terminals.
>>>>
>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>properly  setup.
>>>>
>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>selecting  apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>  I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>>readers.  I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android
>>>>>>only allows a  limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock'
>>>>>>before requiring an  unlock. What number of transactions this is
>>>>>>is unclear (as it appears to  vary by region/bank), so I've got
>>>>>>into the habit of unlocking the phone  (by finger print) as I
>>>>>>approach the gates. And I have two fingers  registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my
>>>>>phone,  but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined
>>>>>way of  activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID
>>>>>to unlock),  I can do that one handed without looking except to
>>>>>show my face to  unlock the phone, in significantly less time than
>>>>>it would take to  find a paper ticket and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier.
>>
>>>>  Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>
>>> [I've restored the full sentence that you cut in half to actually
>>>give a non-deceitful representation of what I wrote]
>> Thanks for calling me deceitful. What disgraceful behaviour.
>>
>>> It is not uncommon for there to be more than one ticket stored
>>>together. For example both the out and return portions of a return
>>>ticket. There is no way to differentiate them by touch.
>> There's two types of paper ticket:
>> one-trip, which nowadays are issued as two coupons "outward" and
>>"return". If you are on the return leg you may not even still have the
>>outward coupon, but if you do, put it away somewhere. If you are on
>>the outward leg, put the return coupon away somewhere and only get it
>>out when you commence the return trip.
>
>Or if you are on a split ticket, and if both are returns, you might end
>up with four or more. You may also have a seat reservation coupon that
>is, to the touch, indistinguishable from a ticket.

Last time I looked you didn't have to put seat reservation coupons
through the ticket barrier. As for split ticketing then you only need
one coupon to get trough a gate (not a sequence of them), so just make
the one you actually need handy, and shuffle the next one you need once
on the train (and it's possible you won't need to put the second coupon
of split-ticketing into a gate, anyway.)

>> rovers (including travelcards etc), there's only the one coupon.
>>
>>> I also can not reliably identify which side of the ticket has the
>>>magnetic stripe on it by touch (it is possible in the right
>>>circumstances, but not reliably in the brief time available
>>>approaching a ticket barrier).
>> I tend to glance down at the ticket, which solves that (I presume
>> you aren't partially sighted, in which case we should reset the
>>conversation).
>
>Having to actually look at the ticket(s) and determine which is which
>already makes it a slower process than using the phone.

You look at the tickets before you get anywhere near the barrier, and
pre-select the one you need for that leg of the hourney.

> Sure, it's not especially slow (unless you have poor eyesight), but
>the phone is still faster.

Based on my recent observations at Stansted that simply isn't the case.
An I'd have to get my phone out of my pocket first, probably a
two-handed job, and then put it away again (by which time one hopes the
barrier hasn't closed before I can pick up my two bags and go through).
--
Roland Perry

On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several seconds slower.
>>>>>
>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>
>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>> properly setup.
>>
>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>> reader pad.
>>
>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>
>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>> a paper ticket
>>
>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>
>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>> code.
>>
>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>
>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>> height, is preposterous.
>
> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip? That’s what
> the gate’s camera compares against, not a central database of images. (UK
> gate wouldn’t have access to non UK passport holder database images). Every
> ePassport gate I’ve ever used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even
> try to draw your fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.

The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
This then gives the gate the key to decrypt the information which it downloads
from the chip (including, as you say, the facial biometric; on EU passports,
fingerprints are also available, but to date the UK only includes the photo.)

The scan/OCR part is what makes them slow and sensitive to wonky/misaligned
passports, although more modern hardware is obviously better at it than old.
Encrypting the information you can read electronically with a key that could
only be obtained if you can actually see the passport page was the protection
baked in to ensure it's not possible to 'stealth scan' passports without
actually having the passport in your hand. For much the same reason, the
passport responds with a different randomised ID number every time you query
it, so you can't track a person's movements by stealth-scanning either.

These controls are still not enough to prevent some people wrapping their
passports in tinfoil, though...