On 05/10/2023 09:21, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 00:25:46 +0100, Coffee
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 04/10/2023 22:46, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just
>>>>>>>>>>>> use them instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it
>>>>>>>> was.  I
>>>>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>>>>> "organ donors").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>>>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>>>>> stuff it
>>>>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>>>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>>>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>>>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>>>>> the supermarkets
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and
>>>>>> a very
>>>>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>>>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple
>>>>> of miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics.
>>>>> Anything more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to
>>>>> Tesco - the Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far
>>>>> smaller than most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons,
>>>>> Asda, Waitrose etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>>>>
>>>> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?
>>>
>>> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>>>
>>> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
>>> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
>>> miles.
>>>
>> You've just shattered my illusions! But thanks anyway.
>>
> Tales about "the nearest station is Bergen" normally involved travel
> warrants etc. from RAF Saxa Vord.

Which was only a couple of miles from Haroldswick.

--
Colin

On 5/10/23 02:07, Roland Perry wrote:

> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
> height, is preposterous.

That delay isn't reading the chip and retrieving the image. I have an
app on my phone that reads passport chips, and my photo is definitely
stored on the chip, and after 'authentication' (manually entering the
passport number) takes less than a second.

The delay is it looking up whatever database the border people use to
decide if you can be granted access or not. Now they could do the photo
while they were also doing the lookup, but it looks like the process is
single-threaded. They appear to have taken the work flow a border
control officer uses and simply automated the 'compare photo with holder
of document' step.

I was standing where I could see the operators screen while wife went
through French immigration recently at Gare-du-Nord and there was the
same delay when the border officer scanned her passport and what ever
details they want to check came up on the screen. And they scanned/OCRed
the text at the bottom of the photo page, not the chip to get he
passport number. The manual border checker locations are supposed to be
for non-chip passport holders. In our case the gate crashed and got
stuck when the previous passenger tried to use it, so we switched lines
instead of waiting for some one to reset the auto gate.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ufjsbb$b26d$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the actual
>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you describe is the
>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens, and not
>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>> takes about 5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>> especially if they have to unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF don't they just use
>>>>>>>> them instead?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be achieved by
>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get the
>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>> discounted items. They all seem to have been replaced with
>>>>>> “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it was. I
>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>
>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>> "organ donors").
>>
>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago and
>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded stuff it
>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>> Sainsbury’s
>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>> the supermarkets
>>
>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and a very
>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll. That’s the big
>> Sainsbury’s
>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop. There are Lidls and
>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>
>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>
> I don't understand that last comment. How can the government ban
> Edinburgh?

It’s a slightly mischievous overreading of a remark by Mark Harper at the
Tory conference this week, m’Lud.
<https://www.lbc.co.uk/opinion/views/mark-harpers-attack-15-minute-cities-legitimising-conspiracy-theories/>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>seconds slower.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>
>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>> properly setup.
>>>
>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>> reader pad.
>>>
>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>> a paper ticket
>>>
>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>
>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>> code.
>>>
>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>
>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>> height, is preposterous.
>>
>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>
>The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.

Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
science.

>This then gives the gate the key to decrypt the information which it downloads
>from the chip (including, as you say, the facial biometric; on EU passports,
>fingerprints are also available, but to date the UK only includes the photo.)

iirc all that's needed is the passport number, which of course is one of
those commonly shared not-very-secrets. As I said the other day, I
couldn't order an Uber in Spain without telling them.

>The scan/OCR part is what makes them slow and sensitive to wonky/misaligned
>passports, although more modern hardware is obviously better at it than old.
>Encrypting the information you can read electronically with a key that could
>only be obtained if you can actually see the passport page was the protection
>baked in to ensure it's not possible to 'stealth scan' passports without
>actually having the passport in your hand. For much the same reason, the
>passport responds with a different randomised ID number every time you query
>it, so you can't track a person's movements by stealth-scanning either.
>
>These controls are still not enough to prevent some people wrapping their
>passports in tinfoil, though...

--
Roland Perry

In message <ufmd7i$v0ei$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:20:50 on Fri, 6 Oct
2023, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>On 5/10/23 02:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>> height, is preposterous.
>
>That delay isn't reading the chip and retrieving the image. I have an
>app on my phone that reads passport chips, and my photo is definitely
>stored on the chip, and after 'authentication' (manually entering the
>passport number) takes less than a second.
>
>The delay is it looking up whatever database the border people use to
>decide if you can be granted access or not.

Thanks for advancing a theory completely different to another poster in
this thread.

>Now they could do the photo while they were also doing the lookup, but
>it looks like the process is single-threaded. They appear to have taken
>the work flow a border control officer uses and simply automated the
>'compare photo with holder of document' step.

Credit card companies seem to be able to authorise contactless payments
in no more than two seconds.

>I was standing where I could see the operators screen while wife went
>through French immigration recently at Gare-du-Nord and there was the
>same delay when the border officer scanned her passport and what ever
>details they want to check came up on the screen. And they
>scanned/OCRed the text at the bottom of the photo page, not the chip to
>get he passport number. The manual border checker locations are
>supposed to be for non-chip passport holders.

And in the UK at least for families. I suspect that might be to do
additional checks on the integrity of the group such as "he might be
your dad, but has he just abducted you from your mother who has sole
custody".

>In our case the gate crashed and got stuck when the previous passenger
>tried to use it, so we switched lines instead of waiting for some one
>to reset the auto gate.
>

--
Roland Perry

On 05/10/2023 19:46, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ufmd7i$v0ei$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:20:50 on Fri, 6 Oct
> 2023, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>> On 5/10/23 02:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>> height, is preposterous.
>>
>> That delay isn't reading the chip and retrieving the image. I have an
>> app on my phone that reads passport chips, and my photo is definitely
>> stored on the chip, and after 'authentication' (manually entering the
>> passport number) takes less than a second.
>>
>> The delay is it looking up whatever database the border people use to
>> decide if you can be granted access or not.
>
> Thanks for advancing a theory completely different to another poster in
> this thread.
>
>> Now they could do the photo while they were also doing the lookup, but
>> it looks like the process is single-threaded. They appear to have
>> taken the work flow a border control officer uses and simply automated
>> the 'compare photo with holder of document' step.
>
> Credit card companies seem to be able to authorise contactless payments
> in no more than two seconds.
>
>> I was standing where I could see the operators screen while wife went
>> through French immigration recently at Gare-du-Nord and there was the
>> same delay when the border officer scanned her passport and what ever
>> details they want to check came up on the screen. And they
>> scanned/OCRed the text at the bottom of the photo page, not the chip
>> to get he passport number. The manual border checker locations are
>> supposed to be for non-chip passport holders.
>
> And in the UK at least for families. I suspect that might be to do
> additional checks on the integrity of the group such as "he might be
> your dad, but has he just abducted you from your mother who has sole
> custody".

The checks in the UK for children's nefarious travel are pitiful.

>
>> In our case the gate crashed and got stuck when the previous passenger
>> tried to use it, so we switched lines instead of waiting for some one
>> to reset the auto gate.
>>
>

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 22:46:06 +0100, ColinR wrote:
> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>
> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
> miles.

As I've heard it told, the question was "nearest main line station" -
presumably the Far North Line not being considered "main line". Saxa Vord
is 260 miles from Inverness station, and 256 miles from Aberdeen station.
Elgin is 235 miles, if that counts as main line (it does have a limited
through service to Edinburgh).

Mike

On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:46:09 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <ufmd7i$v0ei$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:20:50 on Fri, 6 Oct
> 2023, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>> On 5/10/23 02:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>> height, is preposterous.
>>
>> That delay isn't reading the chip and retrieving the image. I have an
>> app on my phone that reads passport chips, and my photo is definitely
>> stored on the chip, and after 'authentication' (manually entering the
>> passport number) takes less than a second.
>>
>> The delay is it looking up whatever database the border people use to
>> decide if you can be granted access or not.
>
> Thanks for advancing a theory completely different to another poster in
> this thread.
>

Fortunately, my 'theory' is the accurate one. (Is it a theory if it's
factually correct? Anyone can go and check - this approach (OCR to get the
key) is called "Basic Access Control" and is baked into the ICAO 9303
standard, and pretty much ubiquitous. There are more modern public-key based
approaches in use as well, although I confess I'm not aware of the extent to
which they are rolled out and at least my current Series-C (blue/black) UK
passport still uses BAC. I'm not sure if the public-key approach (in which the
reader will be authenticated as a permitted device) is intended to replace or
merely supplement BAC, either.)

As for the database theory - the current generation of gates in the UK (and
indeed the EU) can lookup the passport details trivially; that's because the
only database they check is a relatively small (can be stored locally and
updated periodically) blacklist of passports to refuse. There is no online
database of general details to check for all holders, and no central database
of all entries/exits.

In the EU at least this will change with the EES (Electronic Entry/Exit
System) which is indeed a large distributed database that will be queried and
updated in real-time every time someone crosses the border. It is years late.

On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>
>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>
>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>
>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use either hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>>> a paper ticket
>>>>
>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>
>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>> code.
>>>>
>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>
>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>
>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>
>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
>
> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
> science.

And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware, with dirty
glass, a misaligned passport etc. etc., on a gate specified by HM Government,
likely delivered by Crapita, and almost certainly running Windows XP Embedded.
Relatively trivial, sure, but also taking a finite but non-zero period of
time.

>
>> This then gives the gate the key to decrypt the information which it downloads
>> from the chip (including, as you say, the facial biometric; on EU passports,
>> fingerprints are also available, but to date the UK only includes the photo.)
>
> iirc all that's needed is the passport number, which of course is one of
> those commonly shared not-very-secrets. As I said the other day, I
> couldn't order an Uber in Spain without telling them.

To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 08:14:25 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>
>But the humans who perform the ticket checking at Stansted are very
>slow. There really ought to be a "fast track" automated lane for people
>with paper tickets or ITSO cards (I don't immediately recall if it's
>inside the ever-growing CCC zone).

I'd have thought a seasoned rail user such as you would know that
there's more than route out of Stansted Airport Station, but only one
that suffers from congestion.

In message <qhgvhi16ds5ien4vhg6lh21rpdiqavoeaq@4ax.com>, at 09:17:24 on
Fri, 6 Oct 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 08:14:25 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>But the humans who perform the ticket checking at Stansted are very
>>slow. There really ought to be a "fast track" automated lane for people
>>with paper tickets or ITSO cards (I don't immediately recall if it's
>>inside the ever-growing CCC zone).
>
>I'd have thought a seasoned rail user such as you would know that
>there's more than route out of Stansted Airport Station, but only one
>that suffers from congestion.

I was there twice recently, and only one was staffed. I did think about
asking the person guarding the other if they'd let me through, but I
doubt they'd have agreed.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufobfm$1e7je$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:18 on Fri, 6 Oct
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>>>>>>either hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>>>> a paper ticket
>>>>>
>>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>>
>>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>>> code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>
>>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>>
>>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
>>
>> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
>> science.
>
>And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware,

The gates are virtually brand new.

> with dirty glass,

Wipe it occasionally and...

>a misaligned passport

OCRing text that's a few degress slanted has been possible for decades.

>etc. etc., on a gate specified by HM Government,
>likely delivered by Crapita, and almost certainly running Windows XP Embedded.

See above about the age of the gates.

> Relatively trivial, sure, but also taking a finite but non-zero period of
>time.

>>> This then gives the gate the key to decrypt the information which it
>>>downloads from the chip (including, as you say, the facial
>>>biometric; on EU passports, fingerprints are also available, but to
>>>date the UK only includes the photo.)
>>
>> iirc all that's needed is the passport number, which of course is one of
>> those commonly shared not-very-secrets. As I said the other day, I
>> couldn't order an Uber in Spain without telling them.
>
>To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
>readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
>the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
>a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
>detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.

We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufob28$1e4ru$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:56:08 on Fri, 6 Oct
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:46:09 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ufmd7i$v0ei$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:20:50 on Fri, 6 Oct
>> 2023, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>>> On 5/10/23 02:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>
>>> That delay isn't reading the chip and retrieving the image. I have an
>>> app on my phone that reads passport chips, and my photo is definitely
>>> stored on the chip, and after 'authentication' (manually entering the
>>> passport number) takes less than a second.
>>>
>>> The delay is it looking up whatever database the border people use to
>>> decide if you can be granted access or not.
>>
>> Thanks for advancing a theory completely different to another poster in
>> this thread.
>
>Fortunately, my 'theory' is the accurate one.

Clank thinks it's ancient hardware and inability to do OCR, but thanks
for helping debunk *his* theory.

>(Is it a theory if it's
>factually correct? Anyone can go and check - this approach (OCR to get the
>key) is called "Basic Access Control" and is baked into the ICAO 9303
>standard, and pretty much ubiquitous. There are more modern public-key based
>approaches in use as well, although I confess I'm not aware of the extent to
>which they are rolled out and at least my current Series-C (blue/black) UK
>passport still uses BAC. I'm not sure if the public-key approach (in which the
>reader will be authenticated as a permitted device) is intended to replace or
>merely supplement BAC, either.)
>
>As for the database theory - the current generation of gates in the UK (and
>indeed the EU) can lookup the passport details trivially; that's because the
>only database they check is a relatively small (can be stored locally and
>updated periodically) blacklist of passports to refuse. There is no online
>database of general details to check for all holders, and no central database
>of all entries/exits.
>
>In the EU at least this will change with the EES (Electronic Entry/Exit
>System) which is indeed a large distributed database that will be queried and
>updated in real-time every time someone crosses the border. It is years late.

--
Roland Perry

On 6 Oct 2023 at 7:14:44 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <ufobfm$1e7je$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:18 on Fri, 6 Oct
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>>>>>>> either hand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>>>>> a paper ticket
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>>>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>>>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>>>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>>>
>>>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
>>>
>>> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
>>> science.
>>
>> And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware,
>
> The gates are virtually brand new.

The virtually brand new gates work quickly in my experience, certainly not
'preposterously' slowly.

>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
>> readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
>> the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
>> a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
>> detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.
>
> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.

Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.

On 6 Oct 2023 at 7:16:21 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <ufob28$1e4ru$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:56:08 on Fri, 6 Oct
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:46:09 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ufmd7i$v0ei$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:20:50 on Fri, 6 Oct
>>> 2023, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>>>> On 5/10/23 02:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>
>>>> That delay isn't reading the chip and retrieving the image. I have an
>>>> app on my phone that reads passport chips, and my photo is definitely
>>>> stored on the chip, and after 'authentication' (manually entering the
>>>> passport number) takes less than a second.
>>>>
>>>> The delay is it looking up whatever database the border people use to
>>>> decide if you can be granted access or not.
>>>
>>> Thanks for advancing a theory completely different to another poster in
>>> this thread.
>>
>> Fortunately, my 'theory' is the accurate one.
>
> Clank thinks it's ancient hardware and inability to do OCR, but thanks
> for helping debunk *his* theory.

Have you been drinking?

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2023 at 7:14:44 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ufobfm$1e7je$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:18 on Fri, 6 Oct
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>>>>>>>> either hand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>>>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>>>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>>>>>> a paper ticket
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>>>>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>>>>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>>>>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>>>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>>>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>>>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>>>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>>>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>>>>
>>>>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
>>>>
>>>> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
>>>> science.
>>>
>>> And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware,
>>
>> The gates are virtually brand new.
>
> The virtually brand new gates work quickly in my experience, certainly not
> 'preposterously' slowly.

I arrived in LHR T2 this afternoon. There were no queues for the ePassport
gates, which as usual worked quickly and efficiently (faster than a human
officer). And, of course, these gates serve UK, EU and a number of other
countries, such as the US, Canada, Australia, South Korea, etc.

As an aside, leaving Copenhagen airport, all passports were checked by
human officers. The Schengen queue was much longer than the 'All passports'
queue.

>
>>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
>>> readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
>>> the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
>>> a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
>>> detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.
>>
>> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
>
> Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.

Indeed!

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 13:57:10 +0100, ColinR
<rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 05/10/2023 09:21, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 00:25:46 +0100, Coffee
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/10/2023 22:46, ColinR wrote:
>>>> On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use them instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it
>>>>>>>>> was.  I
>>>>>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>>>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>>>>>> "organ donors").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>>>>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>>>>>> stuff it
>>>>>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>>>>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>>>>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>>>>>> the supermarkets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and
>>>>>>> a very
>>>>>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>>>>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple
>>>>>> of miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics.
>>>>>> Anything more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to
>>>>>> Tesco - the Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far
>>>>>> smaller than most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons,
>>>>>> Asda, Waitrose etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>>>>>
>>>>> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?
>>>>
>>>> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>>>>
>>>> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
>>>> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
>>>> miles.
>>>>
>>> You've just shattered my illusions! But thanks anyway.
>>>
>> Tales about "the nearest station is Bergen" normally involved travel
>> warrants etc. from RAF Saxa Vord.
>
>Which was only a couple of miles from Haroldswick.
>
Which when you look at the average map (or e.g. Google Maps) also
appears closer to Bergen. Do we blame Mercator or someone else?

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 17:10:51 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2023 at 7:14:44 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ufobfm$1e7je$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:18 on Fri, 6 Oct
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>>>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>>>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>>>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>>>>>>>>> either hand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>>>>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>>>>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>>>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>>>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>>>>>>> a paper ticket
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>>>>>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>>>>>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>>>>>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>>>>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>>>>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>>>>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>>>>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>>>>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
>>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>> And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware,
>>>
>>> The gates are virtually brand new.
>>
>> The virtually brand new gates work quickly in my experience, certainly not
>> 'preposterously' slowly.
>
>I arrived in LHR T2 this afternoon. There were no queues for the ePassport
>gates, which as usual worked quickly and efficiently (faster than a human
>officer). And, of course, these gates serve UK, EU and a number of other
>countries, such as the US, Canada, Australia, South Korea, etc.
>
>As an aside, leaving Copenhagen airport, all passports were checked by
>human officers. The Schengen queue was much longer than the 'All passports'
>queue.
>
>>
>>>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
>>>> readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
>>>> the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
>>>> a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
>>>> detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.
>>>
Maybe simply to discourage people from writing software which will
happily ignore the blacklist check if the biometrics check passes OK
first ?
>>> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
>>
>> Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.
>
>Indeed!

On 06/10/2023 20:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 13:57:10 +0100, ColinR
> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 05/10/2023 09:21, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 00:25:46 +0100, Coffee
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 04/10/2023 22:46, ColinR wrote:
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use them instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it
>>>>>>>>>> was.  I
>>>>>>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>>>>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>>>>>>> "organ donors").
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>>>>>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>>>>>>> stuff it
>>>>>>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>>>>>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>>>>>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>>>>>>> the supermarkets
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and
>>>>>>>> a very
>>>>>>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>>>>>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple
>>>>>>> of miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics.
>>>>>>> Anything more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to
>>>>>>> Tesco - the Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far
>>>>>>> smaller than most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons,
>>>>>>> Asda, Waitrose etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>>>>>
>>>>> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
>>>>> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
>>>>> miles.
>>>>>
>>>> You've just shattered my illusions! But thanks anyway.
>>>>
>>> Tales about "the nearest station is Bergen" normally involved travel
>>> warrants etc. from RAF Saxa Vord.
>>
>> Which was only a couple of miles from Haroldswick.
>>
> Which when you look at the average map (or e.g. Google Maps) also
> appears closer to Bergen. Do we blame Mercator or someone else?

Mercator I suspect. Use Google Earth's ruler to get the figures I quoted.

--
Colin

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 22:40:10 +0100, ColinR
<rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 06/10/2023 20:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 13:57:10 +0100, ColinR
>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/10/2023 09:21, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 00:25:46 +0100, Coffee
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 04/10/2023 22:46, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 16:16, Coffee wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:40, ColinR wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 15:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ufje5j$45n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:27 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/10/2023 09:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 15:42:39 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:29:21 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 11:49:00 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that should be done before approaching the barrier, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transaction at the barrier takes no longer. What you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> describe is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent of someone arriving at the barrier and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> searching through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their pockets/bag to find their ticket/oyster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy... watch people and observe how often that happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only Little Olde Ladies!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just as bad are the twats who have to pay with their phone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes about  5 times longer to work than a contactless card
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have to  unlock the bloody thing first. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fairly sure they have bank cards so why TF  don't they just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use them instead?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cue response that cards are only for goat-herders?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discounted purchases in supermarkets can sometimes only be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using an app (e.g. ASDA) but otherwise not yet needed in other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supermarkets. For ticket barriers there is usually but not always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on amount of available hands) the opportunity to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'phone ready on the approach run but that doesn't seem to occur to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s used to have red tickets on the shelves for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discounted items.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They all seem to have been replaced with “Nectar Price” tickets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sell your soul, get cheap shopping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tesco do the same with their club card.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I’ve seen the adverts but I didn’t remember which shop it
>>>>>>>>>>> was.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don’t have a convenient Tesco.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So sorry you only have an inconvenient Tesco (some of us call generic
>>>>>>>>>> smaller shops "inconvenience stores", just like mad motorcylists are
>>>>>>>>>> "organ donors").
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Within about 10 minutes walk of here we have, in order of distance:
>>>>>>>>> - Excellent corner shop (which got refurbished a couple of years ago
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> now sells Essential Waitrose products rather than the CoOp branded
>>>>>>>>> stuff it
>>>>>>>>> used to stock - not sure that’s actually an improvement)
>>>>>>>>> - Two small CoOps (from competing societies) and a small Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>>>> - A largish CoOp, and a not quite so large CoOp (again competing)
>>>>>>>>> - Another small Sainsbury’s, a small Tesco and a slightly larger
>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>>>> - Along with a selection of other corner shops on the way to
>>>>>>>>> the supermarkets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There’s a large Waitrose over in Morningside about a mile away, and
>>>>>>>>> a very
>>>>>>>>> large Sainsbury’s 2 miles away at Cameron Toll.  That’s the big
>>>>>>>>> Sainsbury’s
>>>>>>>>> I drive to every week or two to get a large shop.  There are Lidls andS
>>>>>>>>> Aldis and Morrison’s and Asda and the like scattered around the place.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We live in the sort of 15 minute city the Tories are trying to ban.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  From one extreme to the other - we have two village shops a couple
>>>>>>>> of miles away, in opposite directions, which sell the basics.
>>>>>>>> Anything more needs a 15 mile trip to the Coop or a 16 mile trip to
>>>>>>>> Tesco - the Tesco is about twice the size of the Coop, but still far
>>>>>>>> smaller than most Tesco supermarkets. For Aldi, Lidl, Morrissons,
>>>>>>>> Asda, Waitrose etc it is an overnight ferry journey each way ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So is your nearest railway station is Bergen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is always a lovely story, but untrue!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Haroldswick is the northern settlement in Shetland, 210 miles to Bergen,
>>>>>> 170 miles to Thurso. From my place, Thurso is 125 miles, Bergen is 235
>>>>>> miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You've just shattered my illusions! But thanks anyway.
>>>>>
>>>> Tales about "the nearest station is Bergen" normally involved travel
>>>> warrants etc. from RAF Saxa Vord.
>>>
>>> Which was only a couple of miles from Haroldswick.
>>>
>> Which when you look at the average map (or e.g. Google Maps) also
>> appears closer to Bergen. Do we blame Mercator or someone else?
>
>Mercator I suspect. Use Google Earth's ruler to get the figures I quoted.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2023 at 7:14:44 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ufobfm$1e7je$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:18 on Fri, 6 Oct
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at the
>>>>>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as Android only
>>>>>>>>>> allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out unlock' before
>>>>>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is unclear
>>>>>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into the habit of
>>>>>>>>>> unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I approach the gates. And I
>>>>>>>>>> have two fingers registered to unlock the phone so I can use
>>>>>>>>>> either hand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on my phone,
>>>>>>>>> but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the streamlined way of
>>>>>>>>> activating apple pay (double-press the side button, faceID to unlock),
>>>>>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my face to
>>>>>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would take to find
>>>>>>>>> a paper ticket
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it applies to all
>>>>>>>> airlines. To open the gates into the security queuing area you have to
>>>>>>>> put your boarding card onto a window, for it to read a barcode. For some
>>>>>>>> reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>>>>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>>>>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>>>>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>>>>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>>>>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the passport page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
>>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>> And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware,
>>>
>>> The gates are virtually brand new.
>>
>> The virtually brand new gates work quickly in my experience, certainly not
>> 'preposterously' slowly.
>
> I arrived in LHR T2 this afternoon. There were no queues for the ePassport
> gates, which as usual worked quickly and efficiently (faster than a human
> officer). And, of course, these gates serve UK, EU and a number of other
> countries, such as the US, Canada, Australia, South Korea, etc.
>
> As an aside, leaving Copenhagen airport, all passports were checked by
> human officers. The Schengen queue was much longer than the 'All passports'
> queue.
>
>>
>>>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
>>>> readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
>>>> the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
>>>> a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
>>>> detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.
>>>
>>> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
>>
>> Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.
>
> Indeed!

Be fair; by the time the CPC 464 came out a Z80B at 4 MHz, which is what it
had, was really pretty pedestrian.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 17:11:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <qhgvhi16ds5ien4vhg6lh21rpdiqavoeaq@4ax.com>, at 09:17:24 on
>Fri, 6 Oct 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 08:14:25 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>But the humans who perform the ticket checking at Stansted are very
>>>slow. There really ought to be a "fast track" automated lane for people
>>>with paper tickets or ITSO cards (I don't immediately recall if it's
>>>inside the ever-growing CCC zone).
>>
>>I'd have thought a seasoned rail user such as you would know that
>>there's more than route out of Stansted Airport Station, but only one
>>that suffers from congestion.
>
>I was there twice recently, and only one was staffed. I did think about
>asking the person guarding the other if they'd let me through, but I
>doubt they'd have agreed.

You don't need to ask to use the bank of lifts.

In message <ufpf2r$1l1mt$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:10:51 on Fri, 6 Oct
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2023 at 7:14:44 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ufobfm$1e7je$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:03:18 on Fri, 6 Oct
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 5 Oct 2023 at 9:42:06 PM EEST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ufm8lm$ub5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:02 on Thu, 5 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 4 Oct 2023 at 7:06:08 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ufj0t6$1ffp$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:06 on Wed, 4 Oct
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 04.10.23 05:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/10/23 11:40, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> their servers. Meanwhile those using pay-by-phone play about with
>>>>>>>>>>> them, entering their PIN code or getting their fingerprint
>>>>>>>>>>> recognised, then getting the right page shown on the screen, and
>>>>>>>>>>> then operating the barrier. This is nearly always several
>>>>>>>>>>> seconds slower.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple phones and many Android phones DO NOT NEED TO BE UNLOCKED to
>>>>>>>>>> use Oyster terminals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apple phones don't need to be even turned on if express pay is
>>>>>>>>>> properly setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People mostly do not need to fumble with unlocking phones and
>>>>>>>>>> selecting apps, all that is needed to to bring the phone near the
>>>>>>>>>> reader pad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I went through many Oyster gates just waving my Pixel6A at
>>>>>>>>>> readers. I tend to unlock my phone before doing so, as
>>>>>>>>>>Android only allows a limited number of 'tap to pay with out
>>>>>>>>>> requiring an unlock. What number of transactions this is is
>>>>>>>>>> (as it appears to vary by region/bank), so I've got into
>>>>>>>>>>the habit of unlocking the phone (by finger print) as I
>>>>>>>>>>approach the gates. And I have two fingers registered to
>>>>>>>>>> either hand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Personally I haven't set up the PAYG on LU without unlock on
>>>>>>>>>my phone, but due to the ergonomics of the phone and the
>>>>>>>>>streamlined way of activating apple pay (double-press the side
>>>>>>>>> I can do that one handed without looking except to show my
>>>>>>>>> unlock the phone, in significantly less time than it would
>>>>>>>>>take to find a paper ticket
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where on earth are you hiding them so successfully?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and orient it correctly for the ticket barrier. If I have a ticket
>>>>>>>>> that's a QR code there's a bit more effort to find it, but generally
>>>>>>>>> comparable with the time involved in making use of a paper-printed QR
>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been flying with Ryanair recently, but I suppose it
>>>>>>>>applies to all airlines. To open the gates into the security
>>>>>>>>queuing area you have to put your boarding card onto a window,
>>>>>>>>for it to read a barcode. For some reason this takes them several seconds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the same with electronic passport gates, the delay while they
>>>>>>>> read the passport (it's just a small rfid chip and should take
>>>>>>>> milliseconds) before they start to align a camera to your head
>>>>>>>> height, is preposterous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don’t the gates have to read out the image stored on the chip?
>>>>>>> That’s what the gate’s camera compares against, not a central
>>>>>>> database of images. (UK gate wouldn’t have access to non UK
>>>>>>> passport holder database images). Every ePassport gate I’ve ever
>>>>>>> used abroad is equally slow. Some Dutch ones even try to draw your
>>>>>>> fingers into the mechanism if you aren’t careful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gates have to scan and OCR the information printed on the
>>>>>>passport page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is thoughtfully printed in an OCR-friendly not. Not rocket
>>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>> And yet it still needs to be scanned, using decade-old hardware,
>>>
>>> The gates are virtually brand new.
>>
>> The virtually brand new gates work quickly in my experience, certainly not
>> 'preposterously' slowly.
>
>I arrived in LHR T2 this afternoon. There were no queues for the ePassport
>gates, which as usual worked quickly and efficiently (faster than a human
>officer).

My observations recently are that they gates are no faster than an
averagely awake human officer. Any advantage arising from the
potentially shorter queue.

>As an aside, leaving Copenhagen airport, all passports were checked by
>human officers. The Schengen queue was much longer than the 'All passports'
>queue.
>
>>
>>>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking
>>>>a machine readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the
>>>>full data read from the MRZ first, and only after that has passed
>>>>do you read the biometric and do a second check. Not sure why to be
>>>>honest, but presumably something to do with detecting (or making
>>>>harder) counterfeits.
>>>
>>> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
>>
>> Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.
>
>Indeed!

Oddly enough the guy who designed the CPC hardware had earlier designed
a machine for OCRing pools coupons, and that didn't require them to be
accurately aligned and iirc did several per second.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ufr6l8$29k5a$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:59:20 on Sat, 7 Oct
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> I arrived in LHR T2 this afternoon. There were no queues for the ePassport
>> gates, which as usual worked quickly and efficiently (faster than a human
>> officer). And, of course, these gates serve UK, EU and a number of other
>> countries, such as the US, Canada, Australia, South Korea, etc.
>>
>> As an aside, leaving Copenhagen airport, all passports were checked by
>> human officers. The Schengen queue was much longer than the 'All passports'
>> queue.
>>
>>>>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for checking a machine
>>>>> readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full data read from
>>>>> the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the biometric and do
>>>>> a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably something to do with
>>>>> detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.
>>>>
>>>> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
>>>
>>> Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.
>>
>> Indeed!
>
>Be fair; by the time the CPC 464 came out a Z80B at 4 MHz, which is what it
>had, was really pretty pedestrian.

The 1MHz above is a typo, I was misremembering the earlier 6800 (1MHz)
machines, while contemporaneous 6502 home computers were C64 (6502
0.985MHz) BBC Micro (6502 2MHz) and Sinclair Spectrum (Z80 3.5MHz). The
CPC's BASIC was faster than any of those.

Other candidates for the project would have been an Apple II clone
(6502, 1.023MHz) or MSX (Z80, 3.6MHz)

Competitors which failed were the Oric (6502 1MHz) Elan (Z80 4MHz)
Newbrain (Z80 4MHz) Camputers Lynx (Z80 4MHZ) TRS-80 MC10 (6803,
0.89Mhz), and the successful SEGA console was Z80 3.58MHz.

So I think that the CPC was at least towards the top of the class.

In reality, because all these machines shared RAM between the processor
and the Video Controller chip, the processor chip was doomed to run at
the same clock speed as the video controller required, to generate a
standards compliant PAL or NTSC signal.

I suspect many of the numbers listed above are rounding errors (3.5MHz,
3.58MHz and 3.6MHz doubtless being the exact same architecture for
example).
--
Roland Perry

On 21/10/2023 21:20, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ufr6l8$29k5a$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:59:20 on Sat, 7 Oct
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> I arrived in LHR T2 this afternoon. There were no queues for the
>>> ePassport
>>> gates, which as usual worked quickly and efficiently (faster than a
>>> human
>>> officer). And, of course, these gates serve UK, EU and a number of other
>>> countries, such as the US, Canada, Australia, South Korea, etc.
>>>
>>> As an aside, leaving Copenhagen airport, all passports were checked by
>>> human officers. The Schengen queue was much longer than the 'All
>>> passports'
>>> queue.
>>>
>>>>>> To do the decryption, yes. Although the ICAO flowchart for
>>>>>> checking a machine
>>>>>> readable document suggests doing a blacklist check on the full
>>>>>> data read from
>>>>>> the MRZ first, and only after that has passed do you read the
>>>>>> biometric and do
>>>>>> a second check. Not sure why to be honest, but presumably
>>>>>> something to do with
>>>>>> detecting (or making harder) counterfeits.
>>>>>
>>>>> We hope they aren't using a 1MHz Z80 for all this.
>>>>
>>>> Well yes, we are all rather assuming you didn't design the solution.
>>>
>>> Indeed!
>>
>> Be fair; by the time the CPC 464 came out a Z80B at 4 MHz, which is
>> what it
>> had, was really pretty pedestrian.
>
> The 1MHz above is a typo, I was misremembering the earlier 6800 (1MHz)
> machines, while contemporaneous 6502 home computers were C64 (6502
> 0.985MHz) BBC Micro (6502 2MHz) and Sinclair Spectrum (Z80 3.5MHz). The
> CPC's BASIC was faster than any of those.
>
> Other candidates for the project would have been an Apple II clone
> (6502, 1.023MHz) or MSX (Z80, 3.6MHz)
>
> Competitors which failed were the Oric (6502 1MHz) Elan (Z80 4MHz)
> Newbrain (Z80 4MHz) Camputers Lynx (Z80 4MHZ) TRS-80 MC10 (6803,
> 0.89Mhz), and the successful SEGA console was Z80 3.58MHz.
>
> So I think that the CPC was at least towards the top of the class.
>
> In reality, because all these machines shared RAM between the processor
> and the Video Controller chip, the processor chip was doomed to run at
> the same clock speed as the video controller required, to generate a
> standards compliant PAL or NTSC signal.
>
> I suspect many of the numbers listed above are rounding errors (3.5MHz,
> 3.58MHz and 3.6MHz doubtless being the exact same architecture for
> example).

I had one of those as well as the CPC464 - the Camputers Lynx. Liked it
very much but it's failure was the lack of sales and consequent lack
software (nobody wanted to write specific stuff for it with so few sales
possible).

--
Colin