On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>> that standard.
>
> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>
> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397

What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out and
buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and only
get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?

> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T

Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
the money they ask for:

> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/

> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues

Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:

> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html

[..]

>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>> what you get for your money.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>> right price.
>
> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
> driven one?

The fuck has that got to do with anything?

> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made in
> China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable drive.
> Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year old Ferrari
> (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the edge in
> handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And MUCH less
> expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model Tesla is a
> compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar performance. Of
> course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot space...

That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a Ferrari
owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely no idea
just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it comes to
motor vehicles.

Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do *not*
make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to put on
things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon they will
go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they currently play in
goes mainstream and they find themselves getting left behind by the "big
boys".

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 27/10/21 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when the
>>>> competition ramps up.
>>>
>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap quality
>>> car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>
>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>> that standard.
>
> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>
> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>
> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T

There is a difference between reliability and quality, for example an
ancient VW Beetle was reliable but I wouldn't say they were high quality.
Bits of trim falling off and don't necessarily affect reliability but
they do affect an owners overall satisfaction with their vehicle.
My son bought a VE SS ute, sold when it was less than 2 yrs old because
he was sick and tired of bits falling off, it never stopped running or
left him stranded but he was concerned about its long term durability,
build quality was atrocious but reliability was OK.
>
>
>>>
>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many other
>>>> EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I like the
>>>> instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>
>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>
>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose makers
>> seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>
>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>
>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>> what you get for your money.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>> right price.
>
> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
> driven one?
>
> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made in
> China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable drive.
> Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year old Ferrari
> (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the edge in
> handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And MUCH less
> expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model Tesla is a
> compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar performance. Of
> course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot space...
>

Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most people
pay for a car?
Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.

--
Daryl

On 27/10/2021 9:41 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 27/10/21 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when the
>>>>> competition ramps up.
>>>>
>>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap
>>>> quality car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>>
>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>> that standard.
>>
>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>
>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>
>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>
>
>
> There is a difference between reliability and quality, for example an
> ancient VW Beetle was reliable but I wouldn't say they were high quality.
> Bits of trim falling off and don't necessarily affect reliability but
> they do affect an owners overall satisfaction with their vehicle.
> My son bought a VE SS ute, sold when it was less than 2 yrs old because
> he was sick and tired of bits falling off, it never stopped running or
> left him stranded but he was concerned about its long term durability,
> build quality was atrocious but reliability was OK.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many other
>>>>> EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I like the
>>>>> instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>>
>>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>>
>>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose makers
>>> seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>>
>>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>>
>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>>> what you get for your money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>
>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>> driven one?
>>
>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made in
>> China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable drive.
>> Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year old
>> Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the edge
>> in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And MUCH
>> less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model Tesla
>> is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar performance.
>> Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot space...
>>
>
> Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most people
> pay for a car?

**I will ask the questions again:

Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never driven one?

If you've never driven or even ridden in one, I fail to see how you can
make the claims you did.

FWIW: I have never driven a Tesla, but I've spoken to a couple of
owners. They reckon that the Teslas are the duck's guts. That said, I
know some guys who own Mercs and, despite a litany of annoying problems,
they like them too.

> Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
> Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.

**I was discussing Teslas. I know nothing about other EVs.

On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>> that standard.
>>
>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>
>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>
> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out and
> buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and only
> get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?

**It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability of
Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf not to
realise it.

>
>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>
>
> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
> the money they ask for:
>
>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>
>
> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>
>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>
>
> [..]
>
>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>>> what you get for your money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>
>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>> driven one?
>
> The fuck has that got to do with anything?

**When Dazza says:

It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its right
price.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.

Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And everyone
who owns one says the same thing.

Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.

>
>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made in
>> China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable drive.
>> Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year old
>> Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the edge
>> in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And MUCH
>> less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model Tesla
>> is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar performance.
>> Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot space...
>
> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a Ferrari
> owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely no idea
> just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it comes to
> motor vehicles.

**Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla you
drove?

>
> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
> than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do *not*
> make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to put on
> things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon they will
> go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they currently play in
> goes mainstream and they find themselves getting left behind by the "big
> boys".

**I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from strength
to strength.

On 27/10/2021 6:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>>> that standard.
>>>
>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>
>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>
> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability of
> Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf not to
> realise it.
>
>>
>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
>> the money they ask for:
>>
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>
>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>
>>
>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>
>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>
>>
>> [..]
>>
>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>>> driven one?
>>
>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>
> **When Dazza says:
>
> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its right
> price.
>
> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>
> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>
> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And everyone
> who owns one says the same thing.
>
> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>
>>
>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the
>>> edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And
>>> MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model
>>> Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>> space...
>>
>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely
>> no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it
>> comes to motor vehicles.
>
> **Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla you
> drove?
>

He hasn't and likely never will. NoddyLiar hates successful people
whether they can afford a Ferrari, are qualified or own Tesla and
everything associated with successful people is automatically bad. It's
an illness for which there is no cure.

His comments on what is high-end for instance - as he drives a bunky
tradie ute and an unsafe 50's truck - carry as much weight as prediction
that Tesla would be broke by last year.

>>
>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
>> than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do
>> *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to
>> put on things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon
>> they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they
>> currently play in goes mainstream and they find themselves getting
>> left behind by the "big boys".
>
> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from strength
> to strength.

Tesla have a head start. If they don't blow it they should do OK when
the competition heats up.

On 27/10/2021 10:25 am, Clocky wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 6:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close
>>>>> to that standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>> reliability.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>
>>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>>
>> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability
>> of Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf
>> not to realise it.
>>
>>>
>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>> Ford):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
>>> the money they ask for:
>>>
>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>>
>>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>>
>>>
>>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>>
>>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> [..]
>>>
>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>> right price.
>>>>
>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>> never driven one?
>>>
>>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>>
>> **When Dazza says:
>>
>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>> right price.
>>
>> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>>
>> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
>> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>>
>> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And
>> everyone who owns one says the same thing.
>>
>> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
>> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>>
>>>
>>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>>> space...
>>>
>>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely
>>> no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it
>>> comes to motor vehicles.
>>
>> **Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla
>> you drove?
>>
>
> He hasn't and likely never will. NoddyLiar hates successful people
> whether they can afford a Ferrari, are qualified or own Tesla and
> everything associated with successful people is automatically bad. It's
> an illness for which there is no cure.
>
> His comments on what is high-end for instance - as he drives a bunky
> tradie ute and an unsafe 50's truck - carry as much weight as prediction
> that Tesla would be broke by last year.
>
>>>
>>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
>>> than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do
>>> *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to
>>> put on things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon
>>> they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they
>>> currently play in goes mainstream and they find themselves getting
>>> left behind by the "big boys".
>>
>> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from strength
>> to strength.
>
>
> Tesla have a head start. If they don't blow it they should do OK when
> the competition heats up.

**I am surprised that the big guys allowed Tesla such a huge head start.
Toyota or VW could have funded EVs out of petty cash 10 years ago.

On 27/10/2021 9:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:

>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>
>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>
> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability of
> Rovers?

No, I'm well aware of it. Just like I'm well aware of anything
"automotive" made in Italy is a definite no-no. But then I've been in
the motor trade for the last 40+ years and have seen plenty of first
hand examples of why that is.

> Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf not to
> realise it.

Just because you and I are aware doesn't mean everyone is. Human
ignorance is an incredibly powerful force that should never be
underestimated.

Nigerian 419'ers rely on it for their very existence :)

>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>>> driven one?
>>
>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>
> **When Dazza says:
>
> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its right
> price.
>
> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

It has nothing *whatsoever* to do with it. He, like me, was talking
about the quality of the car in general. Not how well it drives.

> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>
> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And everyone
> who owns one says the same thing.

They're okay, but they are very very niche and their appeal is extremely
limited.

> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.

Ladas have an amazingly fanatical cult following too.

>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely
>> no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it
>> comes to motor vehicles.
>
> **Perhaps, but you don't know that.

About this guy? No, I don't. I don't know this particular individual at
all so therefore I cannot comment about him specifically which is why I
said "for all anyone knows". However I have met *many* Ferrari owners
and the one thing that most of them seem to have in common is that their
knowledge of vehicles is mostly limited to starting the engine and
turning on the radio.

BTW: Did you like the last Tesla you drove?

Short answer? No.

Longer answer is that I've never driven one. I've been a front seat
passenger in one and my most distinct impression of the thing was how
cheap and tacky the thing looked and felt. Wasn't all that quiet either
for a car with no "engine".

It's straight line get up and go was okay, but as someone who has driven
a car that accelerated from zero to 221 miles per hour in just over 6
seconds I didn't find it to be all that remarkable.

>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
>> than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do
>> *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to
>> put on things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon
>> they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they
>> currently play in goes mainstream and they find themselves getting
>> left behind by the "big boys".
>
> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from strength
> to strength.

They do at the moment, but you need to put that in the context of them
being the biggest player in a very niche field. The market is rapidly
changing, and the landscape is going to look remarkably different within
3 to 5 years. I expect fuel cell will quickly overtake battery EV's in
that time to become the default zero emission vehicle, and if and when
that happens Tesla's place in the market is going to plummet.

I heard a news story on the radio while I was working the other day
which claimed that Elon Musk's "value" was such that he could buy every
property in Tasmania *twice* and still have enough money left to live an
extremely comfortable life. Now, with a wife who spend 20 years as a
journalist for a daily paper I'm well aware that such stories are often
fabricated "fluff" designed to do little other than generate a "wow"
response, but even if there was a *remote* element of truth to it you
have to wonder how rich does the bloke need to be?

Or is he like Trump where it's all about the power? :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 27/10/2021 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:41 am, Daryl wrote:

>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the
>>> edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And
>>> MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model
>>> Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>> space...
>>>
>>
>> Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most people
>> pay for a car?
>
> **I will ask the questions again:
>
> Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never driven one?
>
> If you've never driven or even ridden in one, I fail to see how you can
> make the claims you did.

Yet you seem to have no problem with how you make *your* claims which
come from exactly the same sources :)

You don't have to own an elephant to appreciate that they make terrible
house pets. Similarly, you don't have to own a Tesla to appreciate that
there are a *lot* of people out there who seem to be quite unhappy with
them.

It's a two way street here pal. You're not talking from personal
experience either, but you like to quote tales from satisfied people and
seem to think that they're the only ones that have any relevance.

> FWIW: I have never driven a Tesla, but I've spoken to a couple of
> owners. They reckon that the Teslas are the duck's guts. That said, I
> know some guys who own Mercs and, despite a litany of annoying problems,
> they like them too.

And you can say that about anything.

The thing you need to appreciate here is that your "anecdotal evidence"
of Tesla's and their level of owner satisfaction is no more or less
important than that of anyone else regardless of the conclusions they
reach.

>> Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
>> Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.
>
> **I was discussing Teslas. I know nothing about other EVs.

I don't think you know anything about Tesla's either to be honest. You
don't own one, you've never driven one, and all you *do* know about them
is what you read on the net or what someone else tells you.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 27/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:41 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 27/10/21 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when the
>>>>>> competition ramps up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap
>>>>> quality car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>>>
>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>>> that standard.
>>>
>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>
>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a difference between reliability and quality, for example an
>> ancient VW Beetle was reliable but I wouldn't say they were high quality.
>> Bits of trim falling off and don't necessarily affect reliability but
>> they do affect an owners overall satisfaction with their vehicle.
>> My son bought a VE SS ute, sold when it was less than 2 yrs old
>> because he was sick and tired of bits falling off, it never stopped
>> running or left him stranded but he was concerned about its long term
>> durability, build quality was atrocious but reliability was OK.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many
>>>>>> other EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I
>>>>>> like the instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose makers
>>>> seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>>> driven one?
>>>
>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the
>>> edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And
>>> MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model
>>> Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>> space...
>>>
>>
>> Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most people
>> pay for a car?
>
> **I will ask the questions again:
>
> Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never driven one?
>
> If you've never driven or even ridden in one, I fail to see how you can
> make the claims you did.

My original comment which you replied to was about the price of the
Hyundai being too high so what that has to do with Tesla I don't know?

>
> FWIW: I have never driven a Tesla, but I've spoken to a couple of
> owners. They reckon that the Teslas are the duck's guts. That said, I
> know some guys who own Mercs and, despite a litany of annoying problems,
> they like them too.
>
>> Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
>> Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.
>
> **I was discussing Teslas. I know nothing about other EVs.
>

I've never driven or been in a Tesla, my son has and he was very
impressed but he's a computer person so he was more interested in the tech.
He even got to try the self driving and "ludicrous" modes on the Model S.
No doubt the tech and performance is impressive but that doesn't change
the fact that they are out of most peoples price range.
Its very unlikely that I will ever buy another new car, I've been
thinking about buying another SH car with a budget of around $25-30k so
even if I wanted a decent EV I couldn't find one within my budget.
Cheapest Tesla on carsales.com.au is a 2019 Model 3 for $56,500.00 which
is double my budget.
Cheapest EV's seem to be Nissan Leaf, cheap enough but with a 120km
range they are next to useless.

--
Daryl

On 27/10/21 9:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>>> that standard.
>>>
>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>
>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>
> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability of
> Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf not to
> realise it.
>

I recently watched a couple of YouTube videos about UK car reliability,
one was the 20 most unreliable vehicles and the other was the 20 most
reliable.
Oddly several cars appeared on both lists so figure that out.
Of the top 10 most unreliable 5 were Land Rovers which doesn't come as a
surprise.
One of the most reliable was a cheap car made in Romania, that tells me
that when people pay a low price for a car they have low expectations so
they are less likely to complain when they have small issues, the
opposite being when people buy expensive cars they have high
expectations so they are more likely to complain about minor problems.

>>
>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
>> the money they ask for:
>>
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>
>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>
>>
>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>
>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>
>>
>> [..]
>>
>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>>> driven one?
>>
>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>
> **When Dazza says:
>
> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its right
> price.
>
> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>
> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>
> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And everyone
> who owns one says the same thing.
>
> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.

Please explain what any of that has to do with price and build quality?

--
Daryl

On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when the
>>>> competition ramps up.
>>>
>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap
>>> quality car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>
>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>> that standard.
>
> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>
> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>
> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>
>
>>>
>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many other
>>>> EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I like the
>>>> instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>
>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>
>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose makers
>> seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>
>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>
>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>> what you get for your money.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>> right price.
>
> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
> driven one?
>
> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made in
> China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable drive.
> Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year old
> Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the edge
> in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And MUCH
> less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model Tesla
> is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar performance.
> Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot space...
>

but certainly not competitive on price with similar sized petrol cars.
the average buyer won't pay double or triple the price for a car with no
real advantages in practical terms

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 27/10/2021 6:49 am, alvey wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 19:16:40 +1000, keithr0 wrote:
>
>> On 26/10/2021 5:13 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 4:46 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 8:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> As you say maybe not
>>>>
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/hertz-to-purchase-100000-tesla-model-3s-for-its-rental-fleet/
>>> Did you think Trevor's link didn't work or something Keith? :)
>>>
>> Similar story different link.OK?
> Nope.
> Why post a different link to a "similar" story keithy?

because the second link has info not in the first? (not that I've
checked) but it would be a valid reason to post another link about the
same story.

>
>
> alvey
>

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>> that standard.
>>
>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>
>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>
> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?

both. (many) ppl just buy a car they want and hope it will be reliable.

>
>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>
>
> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
> the money they ask for:
>
>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>
>
> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>
>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>
>
> [..]
>
>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>
>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>> driven one?
>
> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>
>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has the
>> edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line. And
>> MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any model
>> Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>> space...
>
> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely
> no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it
> comes to motor vehicles.
>
> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
> than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do
> *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to
> put on things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon
> they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they
> currently play in goes mainstream and they find themselves getting
> left behind by the "big boys".
>
>
>
>
>

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 27/10/2021 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:41 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 27/10/21 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when the
>>>>>> competition ramps up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap
>>>>> quality car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>>>
>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close
>>>> to that standard.
>>>
>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>> reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>
>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>> Ford):
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a difference between reliability and quality, for example an
>> ancient VW Beetle was reliable but I wouldn't say they were high
>> quality.
>> Bits of trim falling off and don't necessarily affect reliability but
>> they do affect an owners overall satisfaction with their vehicle.
>> My son bought a VE SS ute, sold when it was less than 2 yrs old
>> because he was sick and tired of bits falling off, it never stopped
>> running or left him stranded but he was concerned about its long term
>> durability, build quality was atrocious but reliability was OK.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many
>>>>>> other EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I
>>>>>> like the instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose
>>>> makers seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>> never driven one?
>>>
>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>> space...
>>>
>>
>> Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most people
>> pay for a car?
>
> **I will ask the questions again:
>
> Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never driven
> one?
>
> If you've never driven or even ridden in one, I fail to see how you
> can make the claims you did.

it's irrelevant to whether someone will pay three times what they can
buy an equivalent petrol car for. I don't need to drive a $100k Mercedes
to know I won't buy one.

>
> FWIW: I have never driven a Tesla, but I've spoken to a couple of
> owners. They reckon that the Teslas are the duck's guts. That said, I
> know some guys who own Mercs and, despite a litany of annoying
> problems, they like them too.
>
>> Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
>> Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.
>
> **I was discussing Teslas. I know nothing about other EVs.
>

yes, and the comparative cost of Teslas and other EV's is relevant

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 27/10/2021 9:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close
>>>> to that standard.
>>>
>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>> reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>
>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>
> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability
> of Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf
> not to realise it.
>
>>
>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>> Ford):
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
>> the money they ask for:
>>
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>
>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>
>>
>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>
>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>
>>
>> [..]
>>
>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>> never driven one?
>>
>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>
> **When Dazza says:
>
> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
> right price.
>
> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>
> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>
> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And
> everyone who owns one says the same thing.
>
> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored.

Bullshit. (see my other replies)

> Like I said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>
>>
>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>> space...
>>
>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have absolutely
>> no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely clueless when it
>> comes to motor vehicles.
>
> **Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla
> you drove?
>
>>
>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a car
>> than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla do
>> *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you want to
>> put on things, and if they don't get their shit together pretty soon
>> they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche market they
>> currently play in goes mainstream and they find themselves getting
>> left behind by the "big boys".
>
> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from strength
> to strength.

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 27/10/2021 10:25 am, Clocky wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 6:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality
>>>>> so I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't
>>>>> close to that standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around
>>>> the place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>> reliability.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>
>>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>>
>> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability
>> of Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf
>> not to realise it.
>>
>>>
>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>> Ford):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is
>>> worth the money they ask for:
>>>
>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>>
>>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>>
>>>
>>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>>
>>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> [..]
>>>
>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>> right price.
>>>>
>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>> never driven one?
>>>
>>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>>
>> **When Dazza says:
>>
>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>> right price.
>>
>> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>>
>> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
>> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>>
>> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And
>> everyone who owns one says the same thing.
>>
>> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
>> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>>
>>>
>>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>>> space...
>>>
>>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have
>>> absolutely no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely
>>> clueless when it comes to motor vehicles.
>>
>> **Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla
>> you drove?
>>
>
> He hasn't and likely never will. NoddyLiar hates successful people

but he is successful (according to him)  :)

> whether they can afford a Ferrari, are qualified or own Tesla and
> everything associated with successful people is automatically bad.
> It's an illness for which there is no cure.
>
> His comments on what is high-end for instance - as he drives a bunky
> tradie ute and an unsafe 50's truck - carry as much weight as
> prediction that Tesla would be broke by last year.
>
>>>
>>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a
>>> car than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla
>>> do *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you
>>> want to put on things, and if they don't get their shit together
>>> pretty soon they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche
>>> market they currently play in goes mainstream and they find
>>> themselves getting left behind by the "big boys".
>>
>> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from
>> strength to strength.
>
>
> Tesla have a head start. If they don't blow it they should do OK when
> the competition heats up.

yes

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On 27/10/2021 11:11 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 27/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 9:41 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 27/10/21 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when
>>>>>>> the competition ramps up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap
>>>>>> quality car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality
>>>>> so I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't
>>>>> close to that standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around
>>>> the place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>> reliability.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>>
>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>> Ford):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a difference between reliability and quality, for example
>>> an ancient VW Beetle was reliable but I wouldn't say they were high
>>> quality.
>>> Bits of trim falling off and don't necessarily affect reliability
>>> but they do affect an owners overall satisfaction with their vehicle.
>>> My son bought a VE SS ute, sold when it was less than 2 yrs old
>>> because he was sick and tired of bits falling off, it never stopped
>>> running or left him stranded but he was concerned about its long
>>> term durability, build quality was atrocious but reliability was OK.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many
>>>>>>> other EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I
>>>>>>> like the instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose
>>>>> makers seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>> right price.
>>>>
>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>> never driven one?
>>>>
>>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>>> space...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most
>>> people pay for a car?
>>
>> **I will ask the questions again:
>>
>> Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>> driven one?
>>
>> If you've never driven or even ridden in one, I fail to see how you
>> can make the claims you did.
>
> My original comment which you replied to was about the price of the
> Hyundai being too high so what that has to do with Tesla I don't know?
>
>>
>> FWIW: I have never driven a Tesla, but I've spoken to a couple of
>> owners. They reckon that the Teslas are the duck's guts. That said, I
>> know some guys who own Mercs and, despite a litany of annoying
>> problems, they like them too.
>>
>>> Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
>>> Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.
>>
>> **I was discussing Teslas. I know nothing about other EVs.
>>
>
> I've never driven or been in a Tesla, my son has and he was very
> impressed but he's a computer person so he was more interested in the
> tech.
> He even got to try the self driving and "ludicrous" modes on the Model S.
> No doubt the tech and performance is impressive but that doesn't
> change the fact that they are out of most peoples price range.

and that's the killer

> Its very unlikely that I will ever buy another new car, I've been
> thinking about buying another SH car with a budget of around $25-30k
> so even if I wanted a decent EV I couldn't find one within my budget.
> Cheapest Tesla on carsales.com.au is a 2019 Model 3 for $56,500.00
> which is double my budget.
> Cheapest EV's seem to be Nissan Leaf, cheap enough but with a 120km
> range they are next to useless.
>

--
"A mans got to know his limitations"
- clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 09:30:06 +1100, Noddy wrote:

> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>> that standard.
>>
>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>
>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>
> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out and
> buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and only
> get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>
>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>
> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
> the money they ask for:
>
>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>
> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>
>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>
> [..]
>
>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>>> what you get for your money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>
>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>> driven one?
>
> The fuck has that got to do with anything?

Gak!!!!

It really is quite amazing the lengths that the Fraudster will go to to
make an idiot of himself...

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 27/10/2021 7:40 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 10:25 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 6:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality
>>>>>> so I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't
>>>>>> close to that standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around
>>>>> the place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>>> reliability.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>>
>>>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>>>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>>>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>>>
>>> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability
>>> of Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf
>>> not to realise it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>>> Ford):
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is
>>>> worth the money they ask for:
>>>>
>>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>>>
>>>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [..]
>>>>
>>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>>> right price.
>>>>>
>>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>>> never driven one?
>>>>
>>>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>>>
>>> **When Dazza says:
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>>
>>> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>>>
>>> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
>>> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>>>
>>> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And
>>> everyone who owns one says the same thing.
>>>
>>> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
>>> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>>>> space...
>>>>
>>>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>>>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>>>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have
>>>> absolutely no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely
>>>> clueless when it comes to motor vehicles.
>>>
>>> **Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla
>>> you drove?
>>>
>>
>> He hasn't and likely never will. NoddyLiar hates successful people
>> whether they can afford a Ferrari, are qualified or own Tesla and
>> everything associated with successful people is automatically bad.
>> It's an illness for which there is no cure.
>>
>> His comments on what is high-end for instance - as he drives a bunky
>> tradie ute and an unsafe 50's truck - carry as much weight as
>> prediction that Tesla would be broke by last year.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a
>>>> car than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla
>>>> do *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you
>>>> want to put on things, and if they don't get their shit together
>>>> pretty soon they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche
>>>> market they currently play in goes mainstream and they find
>>>> themselves getting left behind by the "big boys".
>>>
>>> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from
>>> strength to strength.
>>
>>
>> Tesla have a head start. If they don't blow it they should do OK when
>> the competition heats up.
>
> **I am surprised that the big guys allowed Tesla such a huge head start.
> Toyota or VW could have funded EVs out of petty cash 10 years ago.

Well maybe, but this way they can sit back, see what develops and let
Tesla take all the risks. If it works they can also see what Tesla has
done right and how they might improve on it.

On 27/10/2021 9:02 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 10:25 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 6:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality
>>>>>> so I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't
>>>>>> close to that standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around
>>>>> the place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>>> reliability.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>>
>>>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>>>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>>>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>>>
>>> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability
>>> of Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf
>>> not to realise it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>>> Ford):
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is
>>>> worth the money they ask for:
>>>>
>>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>>>
>>>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [..]
>>>>
>>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>>> right price.
>>>>>
>>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>>> never driven one?
>>>>
>>>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>>>
>>> **When Dazza says:
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>>
>>> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>>>
>>> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
>>> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>>>
>>> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And
>>> everyone who owns one says the same thing.
>>>
>>> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
>>> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>>>> space...
>>>>
>>>> That's nice Trevor, but for all anyone knows your client is a total
>>>> fuckwit who wouldn't know one end of a car from another. Being a
>>>> Ferrari owner makes that a high probability, as you'd have
>>>> absolutely no idea just how many Ferrari owners are absolutely
>>>> clueless when it comes to motor vehicles.
>>>
>>> **Perhaps, but you don't know that. BTW: Did you like the last Tesla
>>> you drove?
>>>
>>
>> He hasn't and likely never will. NoddyLiar hates successful people
>
>
> but he is successful (according to him)  :)
>

Only in his scrambled mess of a mind. There is every chance he did
nothing more than land on his noggin and make a claim.

>
>> whether they can afford a Ferrari, are qualified or own Tesla and
>> everything associated with successful people is automatically bad.
>> It's an illness for which there is no cure.
>>
>> His comments on what is high-end for instance - as he drives a bunky
>> tradie ute and an unsafe 50's truck - carry as much weight as
>> prediction that Tesla would be broke by last year.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to break the bad news to you Trevor, but there is more to a
>>>> car than it's ability to get away quickly at traffic lights. Tesla
>>>> do *not* make a high-end product regardless of whatever spin you
>>>> want to put on things, and if they don't get their shit together
>>>> pretty soon they will go the way of the dinosaur once the niche
>>>> market they currently play in goes mainstream and they find
>>>> themselves getting left behind by the "big boys".
>>>
>>> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from
>>> strength to strength.
>>
>>
>> Tesla have a head start. If they don't blow it they should do OK when
>> the competition heats up.
>
>
> yes
>
>

On 27/10/2021 6:30 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>> that standard.
>>
>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>
>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>
> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out and
> buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and only
> get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>
>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>
>
> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
> the money they ask for:
>
>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>
>
> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>
>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>
>
> [..]
>
>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>>> what you get for your money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>> right price.
>>
>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>> driven one?
>
> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>

If you weren't there you wouldn't know, something you have brayed often
enough.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 09:38:43 +0800, Clocky wrote:

> On 27/10/2021 6:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so I
>>>> can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close to
>>>> that standard.
>>>
>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly unreliable
>>> junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about reliability.
>>>
>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>
>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out and
>> buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and only
>> get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>>
>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course, Ford):
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>
>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
>> the money they ask for:
>>
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>
>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>
>>
>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>
>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>
>>
>> [..]
>>
>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as to
>>>>> what you get for your money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>> right price.
>>>
>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never
>>> driven one?
>>
>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>>
>
> If you weren't there you wouldn't know, something you have brayed often
> enough.

Another regular Fraudster bray is that all motoring journos are easily
bribed, know-nothing hacks. Given this, and the certainty that he's never
plonked his arse in the overwhelming majority of vehicles on the market,
then the obvious question arises, "How does the buffoon get his brayingly
definitive opinions on so many vehicles?".

alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 27/10/2021 10:40 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 10:25 am, Clocky wrote:

>>> **I actually thought the same thing. However, Tesla goes from
>>> strength to strength.
>>
>>
>> Tesla have a head start. If they don't blow it they should do OK when
>> the competition heats up.
>
> **I am surprised that the big guys allowed Tesla such a huge head start.
> Toyota or VW could have funded EVs out of petty cash 10 years ago.

They could have, but then they clearly didn't see a need. It's a niche
market *now*. 10 years ago it would have been a total waste of money for
them when they were already making stackloads selling regular cars.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 27/10/2021 11:20 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 27/10/21 9:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 9:30 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 27/10/2021 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close
>>>>> to that standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>> reliability.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>
>>> What a ridiculous statement. Do you think people *willingly* go out
>>> and buy an unreliable car, or do you think they're just ignorant and
>>> only get to discover unreliability traits through personal ownership?
>>
>> **It would seem so. Are you seriously unaware of the poor reliability
>> of Rovers? Buyers of those vehicles would need to be blind and deaf
>> not to realise it.
>>
>
> I recently watched a couple of YouTube videos about UK car reliability,
> one was the 20 most unreliable vehicles and the other was the 20 most
> reliable.
> Oddly several cars appeared on both lists so figure that out.
> Of the top 10 most unreliable 5 were Land Rovers which doesn't come as a
> surprise.
> One of the most reliable was a cheap car made in Romania, that tells me
> that when people pay a low price for a car they have low expectations so
> they are less likely to complain when they have small issues, the
> opposite being when people buy expensive cars they have high
> expectations so they are more likely to complain about minor problems.
>
>>>
>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>> Ford):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe, but they're *still* a long way from making a car that is worth
>>> the money they ask for:
>>>
>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/
>>>
>>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128625_tesla-ranks-last-in-initial-quality-build-issues
>>>>
>>>
>>> Even the man who owns the company seems to think so:
>>>
>>>> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/business/elon-musk-tesla-quality-problems/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> [..]
>>>
>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>> right price.
>>>>
>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>> never driven one?
>>>
>>> The fuck has that got to do with anything?
>>
>> **When Dazza says:
>>
>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>> right price.
>>
>> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>>
>> A bit like the Mazda MX5. A completely impractical, expensive,
>> under-powered, stupid car. On almost any metric.
>>
>> Until you drive one. I have. Fucking brilliant little car. And
>> everyone who owns one says the same thing.
>>
>> Until Dazza actually drives a Tesla, he can be safely ignored. Like I
>> said: I've spoken to a few Tesla owners. They love them.
>
> Please explain what any of that has to do with price and build quality?
>
>
>

**Ummm. Everything. A Ferrari is just about the least reliable car on
the road. They're very expensive to keep on the road, yet they are among
the most expensive cars on the planet. BY comparison, even the most
expensive Tesla is vastly less expensive and vastly more reliable. Yet
the cheapest Tesla is an extremely credible performance vehicle:

https://insideevs.com/news/453522/modified-tesla-model-3-almost-matches-porsche-taycan-nurburgring-time/

It also carries 5 adults in comfort and is very practical.

And the most expensive Tesla:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2021/09/10/watch-the-tesla-model-s-plaid-set-a-new-ev-nurburgring-lap-record/?sh=5aae865578fc

On 27/10/2021 11:58 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 27/10/2021 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 27/10/2021 9:41 am, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 27/10/21 6:38 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2021 10:23 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 26/10/21 6:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/10/2021 11:56 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/10/21 9:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> .....Then again, maybe not:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-joins-the-us1-trillion-club-on-landmark-hertz-deal-20211026-p5932l.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the moment they don't have a lot of competition so they are
>>>>>>> doing well but it will be interesting to see how they go when the
>>>>>>> competition ramps up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not all that well given that they make a pretty crap
>>>>>> quality car that is massively over-priced in this country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Car buyers in Australia have gotten used to Japanese car quality so
>>>>> I can't see too many suddenly accepting anything that isn't close
>>>>> to that standard.
>>>>
>>>> **Well, I certainly am. Japanese cars are excellent quality and
>>>> reliability. Nonetheless, I see a lot of Rovers and Jeeps around the
>>>> place, along with plenty of VWs, Fords, and other horribly
>>>> unreliable junkers so clearly many people don't give a shit about
>>>> reliability.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397
>>>>
>>>> Teslas are still WAY ahead of anything from Jeep (and, of course,
>>>> Ford):
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-best-car-brands-ranking-consumer-reports-jd-power-2021-2?r=US&IR=T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a difference between reliability and quality, for example an
>>> ancient VW Beetle was reliable but I wouldn't say they were high
>>> quality.
>>> Bits of trim falling off and don't necessarily affect reliability but
>>> they do affect an owners overall satisfaction with their vehicle.
>>> My son bought a VE SS ute, sold when it was less than 2 yrs old
>>> because he was sick and tired of bits falling off, it never stopped
>>> running or left him stranded but he was concerned about its long term
>>> durability, build quality was atrocious but reliability was OK.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMHO the most promising EV's are made by Hyundai, unlike many
>>>>>>> other EV's the IONIQ 5 actually looks pretty good, not sure if I
>>>>>>> like the instrument panel but the rest looks good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's okay. Just another characterless car to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that it looked OK compared to many other EV's whose
>>>>> makers seem to feel the need to make them look as ugly as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At $75K they are still out of the reach of many car buyers though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're stupid money. Anyone who buys an electric car now is off
>>>>>> their rocker, as manufacturers have only scratched the surface as
>>>>>> to what you get for your money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would need to be at least $35k less to be getting close to its
>>>>> right price.
>>>>
>>>> **OK. Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you
>>>> never driven one?
>>>>
>>>> One of my clients sold his Tesla Model 3 and bought the newer (made
>>>> in China) one. He reckons it is a hugely practical and enjoyable
>>>> drive. Quick, capable and quiet. One of his other cars is a 4 year
>>>> old Ferrari (dunno which model). He tells me that the Ferrari has
>>>> the edge in handling, but the Tesla is quicker in a straight line.
>>>> And MUCH less expensive to buy and run. Bang for Buck, almost any
>>>> model Tesla is a compelling buy, when compared with cars of similar
>>>> performance. Of course, if you're only judging a car on it's boot
>>>> space...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't know what any of that has to do with the price that most people
>>> pay for a car?
>>
>> **I will ask the questions again:
>>
>> Oh, BTW, did you enjoy your drive of a Tesla? Or have you never driven
>> one?
>>
>> If you've never driven or even ridden in one, I fail to see how you
>> can make the claims you did.
>
>
> it's irrelevant to whether someone will pay three times what they can
> buy an equivalent petrol car for. I don't need to drive a $100k Mercedes
> to know I won't buy one.

**OK. Plenty do.

>
>
>>
>> FWIW: I have never driven a Tesla, but I've spoken to a couple of
>> owners. They reckon that the Teslas are the duck's guts. That said, I
>> know some guys who own Mercs and, despite a litany of annoying
>> problems, they like them too.
>>
>>> Best selling cars are in the Corolla/Mazda3/i30 price range and the
>>> Hyundai EV is close to double the average price.
>>
>> **I was discussing Teslas. I know nothing about other EVs.
>>
>
> yes, and the comparative cost of Teslas and other EV's is relevant

**Indeed. As is the cost of a Tesla, compared to other high performance
cars. Just as it is stupid to compare a Hyundai i20 to a BMW M3, it is
dumb to compare a Tesla Model 3 to a Hyundai i20. It is, however,
entirely reasonable to compare a Tesla Model 3 to a BMW M3.