On 22/12/2021 15:36, wessie wrote:
> Dave Brown <browniebrownz@googlemail.com> wrote in
> news:bd88b25d-649a-45f2-afd8-1f7fac8150a5n@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:11:19 AM UTC, Turby wrote:
>>> California has for 2 years required all new homes to have solar
>>> panels and is considering requiring them for commercial buildings,
>>> too. Of course, you probably live where the sun doesn't shine, but
>>> I'm sure there's something you can do.
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> I think the UK equivalent would be some hydro-electric affair powered
>> by rainfall through the guttering, with a little bit of wind turbine
>> thrown in for good measure.
>
> we could ceertainly do better with more localised hydro plants as would be
> used for milling, mining etc in the days before electricity.
>
> we could also do better using larger rivers to produce electricity. We
> build massive weirs for flood alleviation schemes but unlike the French &
> Germans, we aren't fitting hydro plants into those weirs.
>
I understand there are a couple on the Trent at least - the nearest to
me being a few miles away at Beeston. In fact its the next but one weir
down from me :-)
C

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 22/12/2021 18:36, ChrisND @UKRM wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 10:36, Ace wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 22:15:28 +0000, Bruce Horrocks
>> <07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On a slight tangent, I was amused by the Rolls Royce proposal for small
>>> modular reactors: seems like they propose to address the "not in my
>>> back-yard" problem by ensuring that everyone has one in their back yard.
>>
>> Reminds me of (and I think I've mentioned this before) the "Derby, a
>> nuclear-free zone" signposts erected by the city council in the early
>> 1980s. I used to drive past one on the A52 at Spondon on my way in
>> from Long Eaton to the RR offices at Moor Lane.
>>
> So, are you still in Long Eaton?

This a new nickname for Nigel?
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 01:43:04 -0800 (PST), Dave Brown
<browniebrownz@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:11:19 AM UTC, Turby wrote:
>> On 12/21/2021 2:38 AM, Ace wrote:
>> > On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 00:47:13 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson
>> > <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Obviously a systematic approach is necessary... Don't place excess
>> >> generating capacity in places where the energy can't be economically
>> >> transported to where the demand is. That's first order planning,
>> >> not something that should come as a surprise to anyone.
>> >
>> > Right, so you need to build huge tidal, wind and solar farms right in
>> > the middle of big cities; yeah. that will work nicely.
>> >
>> I have 8 solar panels on my roof (and so do many other homes here.)
>> That's enough to zero out my electric use for the year. I'll add some
>> more when I get an electric car and/or get rid of my gas appliances.
>>
>> California has for 2 years required all new homes to have solar panels
>> and is considering requiring them for commercial buildings, too. Of
>> course, you probably live where the sun doesn't shine, but I'm sure
>> there's something you can do.
>>
>> --
>
>I think the UK equivalent would be some hydro-electric affair powered by rainfall through the guttering, with a little bit of wind turbine thrown in for good measure.

World-beating guttering, ITYF.

--

-Pip

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:36:07 +0000, "ChrisND @UKRM"
<chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 21/12/2021 10:36, Ace wrote:
>> Reminds me of (and I think I've mentioned this before) the "Derby, a
>> nuclear-free zone" signposts erected by the city council in the early
>> 1980s. I used to drive past one on the A52 at Spondon on my way in
>> from Long Eaton to the RR offices at Moor Lane.
>>
>So, are you still in Long Eaton?

Err, no. NAHAY?

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 6:03:47 PM UTC, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 22/12/2021 17:06, AJH wrote:
> > On 22/12/2021 15:36, wessie wrote:
> >> we could also do better using larger rivers to produce electricity. We
> >> build massive weirs for flood alleviation schemes but unlike the French &
> >> Germans, we aren't fitting hydro plants into those weirs.
> >
> >
> > I think you are mostly right but there are a few archimedes screw type
> > unis that have been put in at some weirs, notably one to offset Windsor
> > Castle's footprint installed at Eton.
> >
> > The National trust decline to answer why they abandoned plans for
> > similar devices at recent rebuilding of weirs on the river Wey, I
> > imagine it was an issue of capital cost.
> There is one of those at Stourton Castle on , unsurprisingly, the river
> (Worcestershire) Stour.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4624725,-2.2078648,34m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
>

We have one of those, it's played havoc with one of my favourite piking spots.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.646584,-1.2736023,303m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Also since posh mad totty HBCarter closed off the first weir pool on the right (she doesn't like people looking into her house) it's lost a bit of its magic.

Had my first ever barbel off the confluence of the first pool and the main river.

On 23/12/2021 09:41, Dave Brown wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 6:03:47 PM UTC, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 22/12/2021 17:06, AJH wrote:
>>> On 22/12/2021 15:36, wessie wrote:
>>>> we could also do better using larger rivers to produce electricity. We
>>>> build massive weirs for flood alleviation schemes but unlike the French &
>>>> Germans, we aren't fitting hydro plants into those weirs.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you are mostly right but there are a few archimedes screw type
>>> unis that have been put in at some weirs, notably one to offset Windsor
>>> Castle's footprint installed at Eton.
>>>
>>> The National trust decline to answer why they abandoned plans for
>>> similar devices at recent rebuilding of weirs on the river Wey, I
>>> imagine it was an issue of capital cost.
>> There is one of those at Stourton Castle on , unsurprisingly, the river
>> (Worcestershire) Stour.
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4624725,-2.2078648,34m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
>>
>
> We have one of those, it's played havoc with one of my favourite piking spots.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.646584,-1.2736023,303m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
>
> Also since posh mad totty HBCarter closed off the first weir pool on the right (she doesn't like people looking into her house) it's lost a bit of its magic.
>
> Had my first ever barbel off the confluence of the first pool and the main river.

Well guessed that I know my spot from fishing trips. The Stour there is
just about far enough downstream of the industrial Black Country that
you can actually see through the water on a good day. Mostly perch, some
roach and the occasional decent Chub. Was broken by a smash take of a
worm just up stream of the weir one day by what might have been a decent
pike.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
1937 Sunbeam Model 14 250 Sports
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 9:43:05 AM UTC, browni...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 1:11:19 AM UTC, Turby wrote:
> >
> > I have 8 solar panels on my roof (and so do many other homes here.)
> > That's enough to zero out my electric use for the year. I'll add some
> > more when I get an electric car and/or get rid of my gas appliances.
> >
> > California has for 2 years required all new homes to have solar panels
> > and is considering requiring them for commercial buildings, too. Of
> > course, you probably live where the sun doesn't shine, but I'm sure
> > there's something you can do.
> >
> I think the UK equivalent would be some hydro-electric affair powered by rainfall through the guttering, with a little bit of wind turbine thrown in for good measure.

It's really not. Common misconception is that the sun needs to be shining for solar to work. It just needs to be daytime, that's all.

My parents have solar, in Essex [0] and they are net contributors to the grid.

Seems obvious to me, as Turby said: if every building (residential and commercial) made its own solar, that's ~90% of energy needs catered for.

[0] Auvache always - correctly - referred to it as "Sunny Essex".

On 12/22/2021 2:44 AM, Ace wrote:
>
>
> But this is a fundamental issue with domestic solar power - when you
> need it, you can't have it; when you can get it nobody needs it.
>
That's what batteries are for.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 12/27/2021 10:33 AM, Ben Blaney wrote:
>
>
> Seems obvious to me, as Turby said: if every building (residential and commercial) made its own solar, that's ~90% of energy needs catered for.
>

Which brings up another issue - "rare earths." Is there enough lithium
or other exotic elements to supply the need for batteries, etc?

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 10:33 AM, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>
>>
>> Seems obvious to me, as Turby said: if every building (residential and commercial) made its own solar, that's ~90% of energy needs catered for.
>>
>
> Which brings up another issue - "rare earths." Is there enough lithium
> or other exotic elements to supply the need for batteries, etc?

Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common
element, which makes it somewhat rare but still there is more than
we would ever need, although it may become more expensive to extract
as the easily mined deposits become played out.

For grid scale storage, there are many other viable battery
chemistries, plus flow batteries, plus heat based storage, gravity
storage, etc., that do not rely on "rare earth" / scarce elements.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 27/12/2021 21:28, Mark Olson wrote:
> Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/27/2021 10:33 AM, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Seems obvious to me, as Turby said: if every building (residential and commercial) made its own solar, that's ~90% of energy needs catered for.
>>>
>>
>> Which brings up another issue - "rare earths." Is there enough lithium
>> or other exotic elements to supply the need for batteries, etc?
>
> Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common

Really? I belive 85% is in the Bolivia, Argentina, Chile region with
Bolivia having the majority. (Which unfortunatly appears to be under the
Salar De Uyuni).

https://lab.org.uk/bolivias-lithium-coup/
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144976/lithium-harvesting-at-salar-de-uyuni

> element, which makes it somewhat rare but still there is more than
> we would ever need, although it may become more expensive to extract
> as the easily mined deposits become played out.
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTC#1 wrote:
> Mark Olson wrote:
> > Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common
>
> Really? I belive 85% is in the Bolivia, Argentina, Chile region with
> Bolivia having the majority.

Er...

> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144976/lithium-harvesting-at-salar-de-uyuni

From your own link:
"The U.S. Geological Survey estimates that Bolivia holds about 15 percent of the world’s lithium."

ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com> wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>> Mark Olson wrote:
>> > Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common
>>
>> Really? I belive 85% is in the Bolivia, Argentina, Chile region with
>> Bolivia having the majority.
>
> Er...
>
>> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144976/lithium-harvesting-at-salar-de-uyuni
>
> From your own link:
> "The U.S. Geological Survey estimates that Bolivia holds about 15 percent of the world???s lithium."

The point remains that Lithium is not required for utility scale
fixed location energy storage.

And I suspect what that quote really means is 'Bolivia holds about
15 percent of the world's easily/economically extractable lithium'.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 28/12/2021 14:54, ogden wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>> Mark Olson wrote:
>>> Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common
>>
>> Really? I belive 85% is in the Bolivia, Argentina, Chile region with
>> Bolivia having the majority.
>
> Er...
>
>> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144976/lithium-harvesting-at-salar-de-uyuni
>
> From your own link:
> "The U.S. Geological Survey estimates that Bolivia holds about 15 percent of the world’s lithium."

And from the snipped link,

"Almost 85 per cent of the world’s lithium reserves are concentrated in
a region known as the Lithium Triangle – along the borderlands of
Bolivia, Argentina and Chile. Chile and Argentina are both amongst the
world’s largest producers: in 2019 Chile produced 18,000 tonnes of the
mineral and Argentina 6,400. But with 21 million metric tons of the
mineral – about 30 per cent of world’s total resources – Bolivia’s
deposits are even greater."

Maybe this makes the difference clearer.

https://wccftech.com/bolivias-massive-reserves-of-lithium-are-about-to-become-available-to-western-companies/

"However, there is some debate when it comes to reserves vs resources.
Reserves are a country's proven stock that are able to be mined
efficiently and reliably. Resources, on the other hand, is a more raw
way of looking at it. Bolivia's massive lithium deposits are firmly
placed in the "resources" bucket because its lithium deposits are found
in salt flats, and the extraction of these is not quite proven on a
massive scale versus other types of lithium deposits"

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 28/12/2021 16:09, Mark Olson wrote:
> ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> YTC#1 wrote:
>>> Mark Olson wrote:
>>>> Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common
>>>
>>> Really? I belive 85% is in the Bolivia, Argentina, Chile region with
>>> Bolivia having the majority.
>>
>> Er...
>>
>>> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144976/lithium-harvesting-at-salar-de-uyuni
>>
>> From your own link:
>> "The U.S. Geological Survey estimates that Bolivia holds about 15 percent of the world???s lithium."
>
> The point remains that Lithium is not required for utility scale
> fixed location energy storage.
>
> And I suspect what that quote really means is 'Bolivia holds about
> 15 percent of the world's easily/economically extractable lithium'.
>

Yeah, looks that way, as per my reply to Ogden.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 12/28/2021 6:42 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 27/12/2021 21:28, Mark Olson wrote:
>> Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/27/2021 10:33 AM, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems obvious to me, as Turby said: if every building (residential
>>>> and commercial) made its own solar, that's ~90% of energy needs
>>>> catered for.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Which brings up another issue - "rare earths." Is there enough lithium
>>> or other exotic elements to supply the need for batteries, etc?
>>
>> Lithium is widely distributed on earth, and is the 25th most common
>
> Really? I belive 85% is in the Bolivia, Argentina, Chile region with
> Bolivia having the majority. (Which unfortunatly appears to be under the
> Salar De Uyuni).
>

The US has some "resources/reserves" in California's Imperial Valley,
which is an interesting place, despite it being as ugly as anywhere.
It's home to the Salton Sea, which was created in 1905 when a canal from
the Colorado River broke and flooded the dry lake bed. It's been wet
ever since, to the point of becoming a major way point for migrating
birds, including some endangered species. The valley is a desert
climate, and with the canals, it is prime agricultural land. It produces
a substantial percentage of the nation's crops. So, with
environmentalists wanting to preserve the man-made lake, farmers wanting
to keep their farms safe, and the miners wanting to dig big lithium
mines, it's going to be a grade-A political game.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)