On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 20:16:45 +1100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 12/11/2022 08:21, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>>
>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that
>>>> is
>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>
>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>
>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>
>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>
>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>> shower
>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen.
>>> I know my way around our house in the dark. There's a torch kept near
>>> the consumer unit. While I don't disagree that emergency lights are
>>> handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>
> Even if you don't know your way around (and very few people that haven't
> been darkroom trained can move safely in the pitch dark)

Bullshit. And very few places are pitch dark when the mains has failed.

> the thing to do is stay still for at least 2 minutes and preferably 5
> minutes. By that time you eyes will have dark adapted and you will be
> able to see chinks of light around the curtains and if you are lucky
> some outlines.
>
> The night sky is comparatively bright even during a power cut unless you
> are in the most pristine locations. It helps a lot to have one or two
> easily findable LED torches about.

Even better to have a few of the led torches which are plugged into
a mains socket which come on if the mains has failed and it is dark
so you can find them trivially and see well enough to move around.

> A 1M resistor across the on/off switch of the ones that take 3 cells
> will give enough glow to find it by without adversely affecting battery
> life.

But the led torches which are plugged into a mains socket which
come on if the mains has failed are much better and you just take
the torch off the mains adapter and take it wherever you need light.

>> Alternatively, well prepared for the power cuts predicted for this
>> winter.
>
> Standard emergency lights only last long enough to allow an orderly
> evacuation of a public building so 30 mins to an hour at most.
>
> That isn't going to cut it during a 3-4 hour evening power cut.
> Scheduled power cuts that you can plan for don't require emergency
> lighting.
>
> The whole idea of doing it in every room is *barking MAD*.

Not that so much as overdoing it considerably.

On 12/11/2022 09:09, SH wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 21:45, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 19:40, SH wrote:
>>> On 11/11/2022 17:50, John Rumm wrote:
>>>> On 11/11/2022 14:27, SH wrote:
>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit,
>>>>> a Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
>>>>> RCBOs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
>>>>> that is present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the type of lighting already installed, you may be able
>>>> to use a conversion kit to power the existing lamp in a "non
>>>> maintained"[1] way. These basically consist of a LED or Fluorescent
>>>> driver combined with an inverter and a charger, plus a Li-Ion battery.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Non maintained means they come on when the power fails, but you
>>>> can't turn them on manually to use as regular lighting.
>>>>
>>>> The advantage of that route is a more aesthetically pleasing install
>>>> with no extra lamps.
>>>>
>>>> However you can also get very small LED downlights that mount flush
>>>> in a ceiling and are quite unobtrusive.
>>>>
>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room
>>>>> or the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now my question for discussion:   WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>
>>>> Powered from the light fitting makes more sense - it will then come
>>>> on when the power to the light fails.
>>>>
>>>> For example see:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LTEM40.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thats an interesting solution. I assume that:
>>>
>>> (a) I can pass the battery and module through the existing cable hole
>>> in the plasterboard (underneath rose)
>>
>> Looks like it.
>
> Hmmmmm.
>
> Some of my rooms have multiple lights so finding the JB with the power
> in and switch cable is going to take a little while, particularly in teh
> kitchen with 10 GU10 LEDs, plus thats a total load of 10 x 4w which is
> too much for this....

ISTR there are bigger units out there for supporting larger 4 x strip
light luminaires typically used in suspended ceiling applications.

>>> (b) is the on - off switch still operative during a powercut? that
>>> would extend power cut time cover so that the light does not simply
>>> stay on until the Li ion battery discharges completely?
>>
>> The wiring diagram shows that the switched live is connected to the
>> input of the unit and not in the output from the unit. So it might be
>> the case that it only runs the inverter when the power fails AND the
>> switch is on. However it does not actually say that.
>
> Sounds like an enquiry is due to the manufacturer/supplier

Yup, or another brand / model may make it more explicit.

>>> (c) I have fibreglass insulation in the ceiling voids. Is that going
>>> to be an issue with the module and battery?
>>
>> They suggest it should be fixed to a surface, and that surface must
>> not be combustible below 200 deg C.
>
> Whats the combustion point of plasterboard? 451 fahrenheit? :-)
>
> and for rockwool fibreglass being much higher as its literally made of
> glass?

Neither PB or rockwool are likely to be fire risks, although I would try
not to embed something like this in rockwool - sat on it would be OK IMHO.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/11/2022 09:11, SH wrote:
> That reminds me, the instructions say Resistive LED must NOT be used,
> only IC driver LED.
>
> How can I tell from looking at the LED bulbs as to whether its a
> resistive LED or an IC driver LED?

They might be saying, don't use with a traditional iron transformer...

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/11/2022 09:16, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 08:21, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:

>>> I know my way around our house in the dark. There's a torch kept near
>>> the consumer unit. While I don't disagree that emergency lights are
>>> handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>
> Even if you don't know your way around (and very few people that haven't
> been darkroom trained can move safely in the pitch dark) the thing to do
> is stay still for at least 2 minutes and preferably 5 minutes. By that
> time you eyes will have dark adapted and you will be able to see chinks
> of light around the curtains and if you are lucky some outlines.

Hanging round to wait for your vision to dark adapt might not be
desirable if the reason that the power is out is because of a fire, and
you have just been woken by smoke alarms.

>> Alternatively, well prepared for the power cuts predicted for this
>> winter.
>
> Standard emergency lights only last long enough to allow an orderly
> evacuation of a public building so 30 mins to an hour at most.

To be called an emergency light it must have a run time of at least 3
hours.

(In commercial settings, there must be an an annual test of run time,
and the batteries replaced on any units that don't reach that)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>
>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>
>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>
>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>
>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>
>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs shower
>> room) have no windows.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stephen.

> I know my way around our house in the dark.

Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?

Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life may
depend on the answer.

Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
familiar with the layout.

> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.

Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the OPs
requirements and needs are.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>
>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>
>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>
>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>
>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>
>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs shower
>>> room) have no windows.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stephen.
>
>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>
> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>
> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life may
> depend on the answer.
>
> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
> familiar with the layout.
>
>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>
> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the OPs
> requirements and needs are.
>

I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight contrast
sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.

The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
(The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and my
eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.

It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....

(Quick mentral calculation:

ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.

1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.

loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
and made into a full lighting circuit)

The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and 14
10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.

SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit but
I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone knows
different?

S.

On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>>
>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>
>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>
>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>
>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>
>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>> shower
>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stephen.
>>
>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>
>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>
>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life may
>> depend on the answer.
>>
>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
>> familiar with the layout.
>>
>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>
>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>
>
>
>
> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight contrast
> sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>
> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and my
> eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>
> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>
> (Quick mentral calculation:
>
> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>
> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>
> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
> and made into a full lighting circuit)
>
> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and 14
> 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>
> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit but
> I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone knows
> different?

IME, more like ten minutes or less.

--
Colin Bignell

On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>>
>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>
>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>
>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>
>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>
>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>> shower
>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stephen.
>>
>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>
>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>
>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life may
>> depend on the answer.
>>
>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
>> familiar with the layout.
>>
>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>
>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>
>
>
>
> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight contrast
> sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>
> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and my
> eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>
> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>
> (Quick mentral calculation:
>
> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>
> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>
> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
> and made into a full lighting circuit)
>
> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and 14
> 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>
> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit but
> I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone knows
> different?
>
> S.
>
>
>

You might be better off with a generator and changeover switch - that
will give full power (not electric showers etc) for hours.

On 13/11/2022 10:32, ARW wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:

>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>>
>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>>> OPs requirements and needs are.

You were right that we needed to know the reasons behind the strange
request but it turns out that "emergency lights" is rather misleading.

Restricting usage of the premises to critical rooms during power cuts
would make a lot more sense otherwise it quickly gets very expensive.

>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>>
>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
>> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and
>> my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
>> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>>
>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>>
>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>>
>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>>
>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>>
>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
>> and made into a full lighting circuit)
>>
>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and
>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>>
>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit
>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone
>> knows different?

It depends how many of the lights you have on at the same time.
ISTR at 50W load a moderate capacity UPS will last about an hour. eg

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51EDOeEOkRL._AC_SL1075_.jpg

Picking a load curve at random. They don't always like loads under 60W.
And typically the higher the capacity the unit the higher the minimum
load that they will accept.

They are designed to expect a PC ~100W + monitor ~30W after all.

You can get industrial strength ones that will last longer and accept
much bigger batteries but again they have minimum load expectations.

> You might be better off with a generator and changeover switch - that
> will give full power (not electric showers etc) for hours.

+1

That is the more appropriate solution now we have more detail about the
problem that is to be solved. Not easily done as a DIY job though. It
also has the bonus of keeping the freezer going (assuming you size it
right) which is what my generator is primarily intended for.

First anniversary of the storm Arwen MFU at end of this month.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:

<snip>

>
> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and my
> eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>

Is it essential that you have a system which cuts in automatically if
power cuts off? Or would you settle for one which you could turn on
manually when there is a power cut (or in advance of a scheduled cut)?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:

> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...

If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should get
them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The opthamologist
can put you in for treatment.

--
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf

On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>>
>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>
>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>
>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>
>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>
>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>> shower
>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stephen.
>>
>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>
>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>
>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life may
>> depend on the answer.
>>
>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
>> familiar with the layout.
>>
>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>
>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>
>
>
>
> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight contrast
> sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>
> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and my
> eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.

Good points and well made :-)

> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>
> (Quick mentral calculation:
>
> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>
> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>
> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
> and made into a full lighting circuit)
>
> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and 14
> 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>
> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit but
> I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone knows
> different?

In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do the
trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is they
have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full load, and
then the time extends at lower loads. However for many there is an upper
limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running the inverter. So
You might get an hour and a half out of a large one - but that would be
the run time even with no external load at all.

The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where the
only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the box,
to one where you can add additional capacity.

At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated one
with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially focussed
options. Then you can usually design not only the load you need to
support, but also the run time you need.

Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you specify
the load and run time, and they can offer product combinations that match.

e.g. start with:

https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL

Add another *two* of these:

https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A

That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 13/11/2022 10:32, ARW wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
>>>>> that is
>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>>
>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>>
>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>>> shower
>>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen.
>>>
>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>>
>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>>
>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life
>>> may depend on the answer.
>>>
>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
>>> familiar with the layout.
>>>
>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>>
>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>>
>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
>> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and
>> my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
>> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>>
>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>>
>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>>
>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>>
>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>>
>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
>> and made into a full lighting circuit)
>>
>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and
>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>>
>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit
>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone
>> knows different?
>>
>> S.
>>
>>
>>
>
> You might be better off with a generator and changeover switch - that
> will give full power (not electric showers etc) for hours.

or both - UPS to give non interrupted support for say 20 mins. Gen to
take over if extended cover required.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 11/11/2022 17:04, charles wrote:
> I don't see "greatly increase your 24/7 energy consumption" the only
> consumtion would be keeping a couple of NiCad Cells trickle charged.

They don't trickle charge - they charge at quite a high rate so they're
fully charged for use again quickly. The ones I have don't have any
smarts inside to reduce the charging current when the batteries are
fully charged, and they use special high temperature batteries which can
stand a continuous high current charge rate.

So several of them will start costing you in electricity use.

I rolled my own in a few rooms which run from a 12V alarm supply, and
use the alarm motion sensors as occupancy sensors so they're only on
when mains fails, it's dark, and there's movement in the room. These
don't add anything to the base load except for a single mains relay
(probably about ½watt) which signals to the controller if lighting
circuit mains power is on or not. (The controller does have its own
mains fail detection, but it's got a 30 second delay to filter out short
glitches, so not ideal for emergency lighting switching.)

--
Andrew

On 13/11/2022 13:29, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 10:32, ARW wrote:

> It depends how many of the lights you have on at the same time.
> ISTR at 50W load a moderate capacity UPS will last about an hour. eg
>
> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51EDOeEOkRL._AC_SL1075_.jpg
>
> Picking a load curve at random. They don't always like loads under 60W.
> And typically the higher the capacity the unit the higher the minimum
> load that they will accept.
>
> They are designed to expect a PC ~100W + monitor ~30W after all.
>
> You can get industrial strength ones that will last longer and accept
> much bigger batteries but again they have minimum load expectations.

>> You might be better off with a generator and changeover switch - that
>> will give full power (not electric showers etc) for hours.
>
> +1
>
> That is the more appropriate solution now we have more detail about the
> problem that is to be solved. Not easily done as a DIY job though.

Not massively difficult either:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Backup_power,_Installing_a_transfer_switch

> It
> also has the bonus of keeping the freezer going (assuming you size it
> right) which is what my generator is primarily intended for.

and CH running...

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>
> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should get
> them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The opthamologist > can put you in for treatment.
>

I consider the risks involved in surgery for cataracts good reason to
delay if cataracts are not having a significant effect. The NHS say
"There is a very small risk – around 1 in 1,000 – of permanent sight
loss in the treated eye as a direct result of the operation."[1] The
risk may well be smaller with private treatment but it ain't going to be
nil.

I was advised of evidence of cataracts 4 years ago. My acuity is not
what it was but at 6/6 is good enough for me to drive and to carry out
the other activities I wish to continue. I do not yet have trouble in
low light - except for reading and close work - or when driving at
night. So that's 4 years of binocular vision I might have lost if I'd
opted for surgery straight away.

There's also the fact that the NHS will treat only if cataracts affect
quality of life. So cost can be a reason to wait.

[1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/cataract-surgery/

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/11/2022 13:30, Robin wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
>> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and
>> my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
>> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>>
>
> Is it essential that you have a system which cuts in automatically if
> power cuts off?  Or would you settle for one which you could turn on
> manually when there is a power cut (or in advance of a scheduled cut)?

Which could be difficult to find in darkness with vision problems.

--
Colin Bignell

On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>
> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should get
> them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The opthamologist
> can put you in for treatment.
>

I have very early cataracts and my optician tells me that I should wait
until they get worse before having them operated on. Meanwhile, keep
sunlight away from them as much as possible, so I now wear a wide brim
hat when I go outside.

--
Colin Bignell

In article <1dae2cf2-e1d2-263e-402e-9623034b4c65@outlook.com>, Robin
<rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
> > On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
> >
> > If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should
> > get them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The
> > opthamologist > can put you in for treatment.
> >

> I consider the risks involved in surgery for cataracts good reason to
> delay if cataracts are not having a significant effect. The NHS say
> "There is a very small risk — around 1 in 1,000 — of permanent sight
> loss in the treated eye as a direct result of the operation."[1] The
> risk may well be smaller with private treatment but it ain't going to be
> nil.

> I was advised of evidence of cataracts 4 years ago. My acuity is not
> what it was but at 6/6 is good enough for me to drive and to carry out
> the other activities I wish to continue. I do not yet have trouble in
> low light - except for reading and close work - or when driving at
> night. So that's 4 years of binocular vision I might have lost if I'd
> opted for surgery straight away.

> There's also the fact that the NHS will treat only if cataracts affect
> quality of life. So cost can be a reason to wait.

> [1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/cataract-surgery/

Over 10 years ago, my optician told me I had a cataract and suggested I
consult a certain private surgeon. Instead I managed to get an NHS
appointment. The upshot was that the NHS surgeon said it wasn't worth the
risk since the cataract was very small.

Now, the cataract has suddenly grown - co-incidental with my getting Covid
- and I have an NHS appointment at a private eye hospital in 10 days time.
This was only arranged during last week. I'm told that there will only be a
4 -6 week wait for an operation.

I'm going for it

Charles

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article <S6Kdna_m2q6Wg-z-nZ2dnZfqlJz9fwAA@giganews.com>, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
> > On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
> >
> > If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should
> > get them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The
> > opthamologist can put you in for treatment.
> >

> I have very early cataracts and my optician tells me that I should wait
> until they get worse before having them operated on. Meanwhile, keep
> sunlight away from them as much as possible, so I now wear a wide brim
> hat when I go outside.

I've had photochromic lenses in my glasses for many years

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 13 Nov 2022 at 16:25:50 GMT, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
>> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>>
>> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should get
>> them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The opthamologist
>> can put you in for treatment.
>
> I consider the risks involved in surgery for cataracts good reason to
> delay if cataracts are not having a significant effect. The NHS say
> "There is a very small risk – around 1 in 1,000 – of permanent sight
> loss in the treated eye as a direct result of the operation."[1] The
> risk may well be smaller with private treatment but it ain't going to be
> nil.

Both mine were done on the NHS contracted out to a local private hospital,
with no issues. This was just before covid. There was no quality of life
question asked or answered, but the rules may have changed recently.

> I was advised of evidence of cataracts 4 years ago. My acuity is not
> what it was but at 6/6 is good enough for me to drive and to carry out
> the other activities I wish to continue. I do not yet have trouble in
> low light - except for reading and close work - or when driving at
> night. So that's 4 years of binocular vision I might have lost if I'd
> opted for surgery straight away.

Well you make your own risk calculation - all life is risky.

--
"Hard" and "Soft" Brexit are code words for Leaving or Staying in the EU, rather than for the terms of our departure.

Jacob Rees-Mogg MP

On 13/11/2022 16:56, charles wrote:
> In article <S6Kdna_m2q6Wg-z-nZ2dnZfqlJz9fwAA@giganews.com>, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>>>
>>> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should
>>> get them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The
>>> opthamologist can put you in for treatment.
>>>
>
>> I have very early cataracts and my optician tells me that I should wait
>> until they get worse before having them operated on. Meanwhile, keep
>> sunlight away from them as much as possible, so I now wear a wide brim
>> hat when I go outside.
>
> I've had photochromic lenses in my glasses for many years

Me too, since I first became aware of them in the early 1970s. The hat
is an additional precaution.

--
Colin Bignell

On 13/11/2022 16:25, Robin wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
>> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>>
>> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should
>> get
>> them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The
>> opthamologist > can put you in for treatment.
>>
>
> I consider the risks involved in surgery for cataracts good reason to
> delay if cataracts are not having a significant effect.  The NHS say
> "There is a very small risk – around 1 in 1,000 – of permanent sight
> loss in the treated eye as a direct result of the operation."[1]  The
> risk may well be smaller with private treatment but it ain't going to be
> nil.

I'm not sure that the risk will be any different. My late partner had
her first cataract operation done privately. A few years later, when the
NHS waiting times were more reasonable, she had the second done on the
NHS. Both were done by the same surgeon.

>
> I was advised of evidence of cataracts 4 years ago.  My acuity is not
> what it was but at 6/6 is good enough for me to drive and to carry out
> the other activities I wish to continue.  I do not yet have trouble in
> low light - except for reading and close work - or when driving at
> night.  So that's 4 years of binocular vision I might have lost if I'd
> opted for surgery straight away.
>
> There's also the fact that the NHS will treat only if cataracts affect
> quality of life.  So cost can be a reason to wait.
>
> [1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/cataract-surgery/
>

--
Colin Bignell

On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>
> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should get
> them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The opthamologist
> can put you in for treatment.
>

already tried that....

too early to treat, and is is very slow progression, we are talking a
decade before the lens becomes opaque enough to justify medical
intervention.

What makes it worse is my contrast insensitivity... if someone stands in
front of a window (in dalight or in front of a light, their face and
body looks almost black.

I need light to be shining on the front of the person to even identify them!

On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
>>>>> that is
>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>>
>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>>
>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>>> shower
>>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen.
>>>
>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>>
>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>>
>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life
>>> may depend on the answer.
>>>
>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
>>> familiar with the layout.
>>>
>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>>
>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>>
>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself safe.
>> (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or not, and
>> my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects visually and my
>> cataracts means I have to have higher levels of illumination.
>
> Good points and well made :-)
>
>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>>
>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>>
>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>>
>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>>
>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft conversion
>> and made into a full lighting circuit)
>>
>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and
>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>>
>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit
>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone
>> knows different?
>
> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do the
> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is they
> have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full load, and
> then the time extends at lower loads. However for many there is an upper
> limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running the inverter. So
> You might get an hour and a half out of a large one - but that would be
> the run time even with no external load at all.
>
> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where the
> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the box,
> to one where you can add additional capacity.
>
> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated one
> with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially focussed
> options. Then you can usually design not only the load you need to
> support, but also the run time you need.
>
> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you specify
> the load and run time, and they can offer product combinations that match.
>
> e.g. start with:
>
> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
>
> Add another *two* of these:
>
> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
>
> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
>
>
>

the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
electricity bill!!!! :-D

mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a 750VA
unit for around £100.

someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a power
wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external power
interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If aom
what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if sized for
a 5kWp array?