On 15/11/2022 09:25, charles wrote:
> In article <tkvkr8$21bbf$1@dont-email.me>,
> Harry Bloomfield Esq <a@harrym1byt.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 13/11/2022 10:32, ARW wrote:
>>> You might be better off with a generator and changeover switch - that
>>> will give full power (not electric showers etc) for hours.
>
>> I would be wary of relying entirely on a generator starting, if my life
>> depended on it, batteries are something I would have more faith in.
>
> Many systems rely on batteries at first, until the generator is running.

If for no other reason than to turn over the generator to start it!

If it is mission critical then you do have to do monthly or three
monthly tests depending on how crucial it it. It is very embarrassing if
the emergency backup doesn't kick in and work as intended on a test.

That happened on our site once and did a lot of damage.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 15/11/2022 13:18, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 09:25, charles wrote:
>> In article <tkvkr8$21bbf$1@dont-email.me>,
>>     Harry Bloomfield Esq <a@harrym1byt.plus.com> wrote:
>>> On 13/11/2022 10:32, ARW wrote:
>>>> You might be better off with a generator and changeover switch - that
>>>> will give full power (not electric showers etc) for hours.
>>
>>> I would be wary of relying entirely on a generator starting, if my life
>>> depended on it, batteries are something I would have more faith in.
>>
>> Many systems rely on batteries at first, until the generator is running.
>
> If for no other reason than to turn over the generator to start it!

At Fukushima, the batteries kept the plant running for eight hours. Pity
the tsunami had reached just high enough to wash away the fuel tanks for
the generators.

>
> If it is mission critical then you do have to do monthly or three
> monthly tests depending on how crucial it it. It is very embarrassing if
> the emergency backup doesn't kick in and work as intended on a test.
>
> That happened on our site once and did a lot of damage.
>

--
Colin Bignell

On 14/11/2022 11:43, SH wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
>>>>>> RCBOs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
>>>>>> that is
>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that
>>>>>> room or
>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
>>>>>> shower
>>>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen.
>>>>
>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>>>
>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>>>
>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life
>>>> may depend on the answer.
>>>>
>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
>>>> familiar with the layout.
>>>>
>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>>>
>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>>>
>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>>> illumination.
>>
>> Good points and well made :-)
>>
>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>>>
>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>>>
>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>>>
>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>>>
>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
>>>
>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and
>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>>>
>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit
>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone
>>> knows different?
>>
>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do the
>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is
>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full
>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many there
>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running the
>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one - but
>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
>>
>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where the
>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the box,
>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
>>
>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated
>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load you
>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
>>
>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product combinations
>> that match.
>>
>> e.g. start with:
>>
>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
>>
>> Add another *two* of these:
>>
>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
>>
>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
>
> Actually thinking about this a bit more.....
>
> What about a 2nd 63A CU that is fed by a UPS with extra battery and the
> UPS is then connected to a standby generator.
>
> The low amperage circuits like lighting, alarm, CCTV, smoke dets and
> boiler are then wired through a DPDT relay (one for each RCBO) with the
> relay coil energised by the original CU.

I think you must include a specific type of fail safe isolation switch
over keywords "Automatic Transfer Switch" to isolate your premises. Some
dodgy bodge of relays in a diecast box won't cut it.

Line engineers lives are at stake.

> When power fails, the bank of changeover DPDT relays then switch the low
> current circuits over to the 2nd CU (which have the same RCBO's
> duplicated for each circuit) and this secondary CU is connected to the
> UPS and Genny.

You will have to be selective of what you put onto the system. The
generator can probably tolerate a fridge or freezer motor starting up
from cold but a computer type UPS could see it as a fault condition.

Lights shouldn't be a problem but starting up powerful motors can be.

> This then allows instant switchover of all lighting circuits and smoke
> dets, boiler, CCTV and alarm to UPS and my route to the generator
> location is fully lit to allow me to to then start the genny and then
> the UPS can then be energised back up to through powering rather than
> discharging its batteries.

You probably want an automatic start on the generator as well as on the
switchover. These installations do not come cheap.

> (I need the outside floods to see my way across the garden to get wood
> from the woodstore for the woodburner)

Probably better to keep a bit more wood indoors then to avoid having to
do it during a power cut. It doesn't make much sense to insist on being
able to do absolutely everything as normal during a power cut.

> From an IET wiring regs point of is the above permissible with warning
> labels on both CUs about some circuits being energised during a power
> cut?  It no different to a PV array with a battery is it really?

Most PV arrays and batteries are grid tied. They cannot operate without
mains power from the grid for them to sync to. There are ones that can
be configured to operate in a free running mode but again you would need
an Automatic Transfer Switch to isolate your home from the grid.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 13/11/2022 16:38, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 13:30, Robin wrote:
>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>>> illumination.
>>>
>>
>> Is it essential that you have a system which cuts in automatically if
>> power cuts off?  Or would you settle for one which you could turn on
>> manually when there is a power cut (or in advance of a scheduled cut)?
>
> Which could be difficult to find in darkness with vision problems.
>

Even people with 20/20 vision would struggle when plunged
into (total) darkness, which would be the case unless
there was some moonlight or light from a fire.

On 13/11/2022 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2022 at 09:01:21 GMT, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts ...
>
> If cataracts are manifest and an optahmologist agrees, then you should get
> them fixed immediately. There's no reason at all to delay. The opthamologist
> can put you in for treatment.
>

I know someone who thought he had a cataract in one eye, but the
optician said no, your eye pressure is 33mmHg and you have Glaucoma,
so off to the eye hospital with you.

The eye hospital agreed with the original diagnosis but
did say there was the beginnings of a cataract (but didn't
indicate what could be done). They just prescribed
eye drops of something for 6 months.

On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:

> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
> Battery life: 1 lifetime
> Self discharge: none
> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
> Reliability: vastly better
> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil water & cook things, though not very quickly.

Am I the only one puzzled by the way people use the phrase
'gaslighting' ?. The generation that seems to like this
word have almost never experienced illumination by gas
so what is the point of using it ?. 'Spotlighting' or
even 'footlighting' I might understand.

On 14/11/2022 00:43, Animal wrote:
> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
>>
>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>
>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>
>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>
>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>
>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs shower
>> room) have no windows.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stephen.
>
> One thing I learnt about backup lighting is that none are long term reliable. Gas lights are, and they're cheap.

Until you fall over it in the dark while trying to light it and
turn the mantle into dust.

On 15/11/2022 14:27, Andrew wrote:
> On 13/11/2022 16:38, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 13/11/2022 13:30, Robin wrote:
>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>>>> illumination.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is it essential that you have a system which cuts in automatically if
>>> power cuts off?  Or would you settle for one which you could turn on
>>> manually when there is a power cut (or in advance of a scheduled cut)?
>>
>> Which could be difficult to find in darkness with vision problems.
>>
>
> Even people with 20/20 vision would struggle when plunged
> into (total) darkness, which would be the case unless
> there was some moonlight or light from a fire.

I've been in a smoke filled stairwell where it was just about possible
to see that the ceiling light was on when you were standing directly
below it. Two of the three stairwells were filled with smoke, so it was
necessary to lead people across the central one, so they could escape by
the only smoke-free one.

--
Colin Bignell

On 15/11/2022 14:42, Andrew wrote:
> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>
>> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>> Battery life: 1 lifetime
>> Self discharge: none
>> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>> Reliability: vastly better
>> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>
> Am I the only one puzzled by the way people use the phrase
> 'gaslighting' ?. The generation that seems to like this
> word have almost never experienced illumination by gas
> so what is the point of using it ?. 'Spotlighting' or
> even 'footlighting' I might understand.

I suggest you watch the film Gaslight.

--
Colin Bignell

On 15/11/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 14:42, Andrew wrote:
>> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>>
>>> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>>> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>>> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>>> Battery life: 1 lifetime
>>> Self discharge: none
>>> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>>> Reliability: vastly better
>>> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>>
>> Am I the only one puzzled by the way people use the phrase
>> 'gaslighting' ?. The generation that seems to like this
>> word have almost never experienced illumination by gas
>> so what is the point of using it ?. 'Spotlighting' or
>> even 'footlighting' I might understand.
>
> I suggest you watch the film Gaslight.
>
Exactly.
--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 15/11/2022 14:42, Andrew wrote:
> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>
>> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>> Battery life: 1 lifetime
>> Self discharge: none
>> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>> Reliability: vastly better
>> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>
> Am I the only one puzzled by the way people use the phrase
> 'gaslighting' ?. The generation that seems to like this
> word have almost never experienced illumination by gas
> so what is the point of using it ?. 'Spotlighting' or
> even 'footlighting' I might understand.

IIRC it relates to the film where a chap torments his wife by fiddling
with the lighting but then pretending that he can't see what is wrong,
convincing her that it must all be in her head.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
> > On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
> >> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
> >>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
> >>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
> >>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
> >>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
> >>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
> >>>>>>>> RCBOs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
> >>>>>>>> that is
> >>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that
> >>>>>>>> room or
> >>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs
> >>>>>>>> shower
> >>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Stephen.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your life
> >>>>>> may depend on the answer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are not so
> >>>>>> familiar with the layout.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't disagree
> >>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what the
> >>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
> >>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
> >>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
> >>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
> >>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
> >>>>> illumination.
> >>>>
> >>>> Good points and well made :-)
> >>>>
> >>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger battery
> >>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground, 1st
> >>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
> >>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this one
> >>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
> >>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten and
> >>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer unit
> >>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless anyone
> >>>>> knows different?
> >>>>
> >>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do the
> >>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is
> >>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full
> >>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many there
> >>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running the
> >>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one - but
> >>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where the
> >>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the box,
> >>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
> >>>>
> >>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated
> >>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
> >>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load you
> >>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
> >>>>
> >>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
> >>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product combinations
> >>>> that match.
> >>>>
> >>>> e.g. start with:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
> >>>>
> >>>> Add another *two* of these:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
> >>>>
> >>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
> >>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
> >> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get more
> >> commercial prices!
> >>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a 750VA
> >>> unit for around £100.
> >> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4 hours at
> >> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external batts is
> >> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA UPS
> >> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally) might
> >> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
> >> profile that limits max run time)
> >>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a power
> >>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external power
> >>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If aom
> >>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if sized for
> >>> a 5kWp array?
> >> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so can't
> >> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed to
> >> time shift consumption however should be able to work without external
> >> power.
> >>
> >> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since they
> >> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of the
> >> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
> >> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
> >> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the inverter.
> >
> > Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
> > Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
> > Installation procedure: screw in a hook
> > Battery life: 1 lifetime
> > Self discharge: none
> > Run time: much longer than any battery based system
> > Reliability: vastly better
> > Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil water & cook things, though not very quickly.
> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?

On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 14:44:31 UTC, Andrew wrote:
> On 14/11/2022 00:43, Animal wrote:
> > On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
> >> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting circuit, a
> >> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A RCBOs.
> >>
> >> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO that is
> >> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
> >>
> >> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
> >>
> >> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that room or
> >> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
> >>
> >> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
> >>
> >> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft / downstairs shower
> >> room) have no windows.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Stephen.
> >
> > One thing I learnt about backup lighting is that none are long term reliable. Gas lights are, and they're cheap.
> Until you fall over it in the dark while trying to light it and
> turn the mantle into dust.

I hung mine on hooks just above head height, so no chance of that.
I forget the brand but I had the turquoise ones that are cheap but take expensive gas cans. Cheap can plus adaptor lasts decades if used just as backup.

On 11/11/2022 22:51, Bob Eager wrote:
> I have a green neon surround on the landing light switch. It is
> surprisingly bright.

Green neon? Oh well, I know what you mean :P

I've got one like that in the garage for the light in the oil tank room.
I've left it on several times; it's not bright enough to notice.

Andy

On Sunday, 20 November 2022 at 21:24:07 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 22:51, Bob Eager wrote:
> > I have a green neon surround on the landing light switch. It is
> > surprisingly bright.
>
> Green neon? Oh well, I know what you mean :P
>
> I've got one like that in the garage for the light in the oil tank room.
> I've left it on several times; it's not bright enough to notice.
>
> Andy

despite the inaccuracy it seems to be the official name for them.

On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:16:50 +1100, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>> > On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
>> >> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
>> >>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
>> >>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>> >>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting
>> circuit, a
>> >>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
>> >>>>>>>> RCBOs.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
>> >>>>>>>> that is
>> >>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that
>> >>>>>>>> room or
>> >>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft /
>> downstairs
>> >>>>>>>> shower
>> >>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Stephen.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your
>> life
>> >>>>>> may depend on the answer.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are
>> not so
>> >>>>>> familiar with the layout.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't
>> disagree
>> >>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what
>> the
>> >>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>> >>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
>> >>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
>> >>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>> >>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>> >>>>> illumination.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Good points and well made :-)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger
>> battery
>> >>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground,
>> 1st
>> >>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
>> >>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries......
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this
>> one
>> >>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
>> >>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten
>> and
>> >>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer
>> unit
>> >>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless
>> anyone
>> >>>>> knows different?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do
>> the
>> >>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is
>> >>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full
>> >>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many
>> there
>> >>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running
>> the
>> >>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one -
>> but
>> >>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where
>> the
>> >>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the
>> box,
>> >>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated
>> >>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
>> >>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load you
>> >>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
>> >>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product
>> combinations
>> >>>> that match.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> e.g. start with:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Add another *two* of these:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
>> >>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
>> >> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get
>> more
>> >> commercial prices!
>> >>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a
>> 750VA
>> >>> unit for around £100.
>> >> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4 hours at
>> >> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external
>> batts is
>> >> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA
>> UPS
>> >> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally)
>> might
>> >> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
>> >> profile that limits max run time)
>> >>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a
>> power
>> >>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external power
>> >>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If
>> aom
>> >>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if sized
>> for
>> >>> a 5kWp array?
>> >> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so
>> can't
>> >> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed to
>> >> time shift consumption however should be able to work without
>> external
>> >> power.
>> >>
>> >> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since they
>> >> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of the
>> >> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
>> >> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
>> >> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the inverter.
>> >
>> > Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>> > Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>> > Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>> > Battery life: 1 lifetime
>> > Self discharge: none
>> > Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>> > Reliability: vastly better
>> > Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?
>
> Where I used gas for backup light I never found it a problem, it hung
> somewhere very easy to get to. Certainly far less total hassle than
> anything electric.

On Friday, 25 November 2022 at 02:21:21 UTC, farter wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:16:50 +1100, Animal <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
> >> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
> >> > On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
> >> >> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
> >> >>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
> >> >>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting
> >> circuit, a
> >> >>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
> >> >>>>>>>> RCBOs.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
> >> >>>>>>>> that is
> >> >>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that
> >> >>>>>>>> room or
> >> >>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft /
> >> downstairs
> >> >>>>>>>> shower
> >> >>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Stephen.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your
> >> life
> >> >>>>>> may depend on the answer.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are
> >> not so
> >> >>>>>> familiar with the layout.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't
> >> disagree
> >> >>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what
> >> the
> >> >>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
> >> >>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it..
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
> >> >>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
> >> >>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
> >> >>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
> >> >>>>> illumination.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Good points and well made :-)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger
> >> battery
> >> >>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground,
> >> 1st
> >> >>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
> >> >>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries......
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this
> >> one
> >> >>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
> >> >>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten
> >> and
> >> >>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer
> >> unit
> >> >>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless
> >> anyone
> >> >>>>> knows different?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do
> >> the
> >> >>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is
> >> >>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full
> >> >>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many
> >> there
> >> >>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running
> >> the
> >> >>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one -
> >> but
> >> >>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where
> >> the
> >> >>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the
> >> box,
> >> >>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated
> >> >>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
> >> >>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load you
> >> >>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
> >> >>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product
> >> combinations
> >> >>>> that match.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> e.g. start with:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Add another *two* of these:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
> >> >>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
> >> >> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get
> >> more
> >> >> commercial prices!
> >> >>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a
> >> 750VA
> >> >>> unit for around £100.
> >> >> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4 hours at
> >> >> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external
> >> batts is
> >> >> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA
> >> UPS
> >> >> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally)
> >> might
> >> >> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
> >> >> profile that limits max run time)
> >> >>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a
> >> power
> >> >>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external power
> >> >>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If
> >> aom
> >> >>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if sized
> >> for
> >> >>> a 5kWp array?
> >> >> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so
> >> can't
> >> >> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed to
> >> >> time shift consumption however should be able to work without
> >> external
> >> >> power.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since they
> >> >> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of the
> >> >> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
> >> >> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
> >> >> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the inverter.
> >> >
> >> > Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
> >> > Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
> >> > Installation procedure: screw in a hook
> >> > Battery life: 1 lifetime
> >> > Self discharge: none
> >> > Run time: much longer than any battery based system
> >> > Reliability: vastly better
> >> > Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
> >> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
> >> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?
> >
> > Where I used gas for backup light I never found it a problem, it hung
> > somewhere very easy to get to. Certainly far less total hassle than
> > anything electric.
> That's silly with a well designed led with a decent Li ion battery
> which is plugged into the mains all the time and which comes
> on automatically when the mains has failed and the light level
> is low enough to warrant turning the leds on.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 05:45:45 +1100, Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, 25 November 2022 at 02:21:21 UTC, farter wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:16:50 +1100, Animal <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> >> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>> >> > On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
>> >> >> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
>> >> >>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
>> >> >>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>> >> >>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting
>> >> circuit, a
>> >> >>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4
>> off 6A
>> >> >>>>>>>> RCBOs.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A
>> RCBO
>> >> >>>>>>>> that is
>> >> >>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for
>> that
>> >> >>>>>>>> room or
>> >> >>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and
>> why?
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft /
>> >> downstairs
>> >> >>>>>>>> shower
>> >> >>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>> Stephen.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your
>> >> life
>> >> >>>>>> may depend on the answer.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are
>> >> not so
>> >> >>>>>> familiar with the layout.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't
>> >> disagree
>> >> >>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know
>> what
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>> >> >>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut
>> it.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep
>> myself
>> >> >>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it
>> or
>> >> >>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>> >> >>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>> >> >>>>> illumination.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Good points and well made :-)
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger
>> >> battery
>> >> >>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits
>> (ground,
>> >> 1st
>> >> >>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round
>> every
>> >> >>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion
>> batteries.....
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know
>> this
>> >> one
>> >> >>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
>> >> >>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED
>> batten
>> >> and
>> >> >>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer
>> >> unit
>> >> >>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless
>> >> anyone
>> >> >>>>> knows different?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do
>> >> the
>> >> >>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices
>> is
>> >> >>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at
>> full
>> >> >>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many
>> >> there
>> >> >>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses
>> running
>> >> the
>> >> >>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large
>> one -
>> >> but
>> >> >>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where
>> >> the
>> >> >>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in
>> the
>> >> box,
>> >> >>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal
>> integrated
>> >> >>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more
>> commercially
>> >> >>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load
>> you
>> >> >>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
>> >> >>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product
>> >> combinations
>> >> >>>> that match.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> e.g. start with:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Add another *two* of these:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
>> >> >>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
>> >> >> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get
>> >> more
>> >> >> commercial prices!
>> >> >>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a
>> >> 750VA
>> >> >>> unit for around £100.
>> >> >> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4
>> hours at
>> >> >> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external
>> >> batts is
>> >> >> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA
>> >> UPS
>> >> >> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally)
>> >> might
>> >> >> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
>> >> >> profile that limits max run time)
>> >> >>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a
>> >> power
>> >> >>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external
>> power
>> >> >>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true?
>> If
>> >> aom
>> >> >>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if
>> sized
>> >> for
>> >> >>> a 5kWp array?
>> >> >> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so
>> >> can't
>> >> >> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed
>> to
>> >> >> time shift consumption however should be able to work without
>> >> external
>> >> >> power.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since
>> they
>> >> >> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of
>> the
>> >> >> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
>> >> >> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
>> >> >> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the
>> inverter.
>> >> >
>> >> > Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>> >> > Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>> >> > Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>> >> > Battery life: 1 lifetime
>> >> > Self discharge: none
>> >> > Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>> >> > Reliability: vastly better
>> >> > Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>> >> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>> >> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?
>> >
>> > Where I used gas for backup light I never found it a problem, it hung
>> > somewhere very easy to get to. Certainly far less total hassle than
>> > anything electric.
>> That's silly with a well designed led with a decent Li ion battery
>> which is plugged into the mains all the time and which comes
>> on automatically when the mains has failed and the light level
>> is low enough to warrant turning the leds on.

On 25/11/2022 18:45, Animal wrote:
> On Friday, 25 November 2022 at 02:21:21 UTC, farter wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:16:50 +1100, Animal <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting
>>>> circuit, a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
>>>>>>>>>>>> RCBOs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that
>>>>>>>>>>>> room or
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft /
>>>> downstairs
>>>>>>>>>>>> shower
>>>>>>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your
>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>> may depend on the answer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are
>>>> not so
>>>>>>>>>> familiar with the layout.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't
>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>>>>>>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
>>>>>>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
>>>>>>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>>>>>>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>>>>>>>>> illumination.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good points and well made :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger
>>>> battery
>>>>>>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground,
>>>> 1st
>>>>>>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
>>>>>>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries.....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this
>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
>>>>>>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer
>>>> unit
>>>>>>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless
>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>> knows different?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is
>>>>>>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full
>>>>>>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many
>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one -
>>>> but
>>>>>>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the
>>>> box,
>>>>>>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated
>>>>>>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
>>>>>>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load you
>>>>>>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
>>>>>>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product
>>>> combinations
>>>>>>>> that match.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> e.g. start with:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Add another *two* of these:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
>>>>>>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
>>>>>> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get
>>>> more
>>>>>> commercial prices!
>>>>>>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a
>>>> 750VA
>>>>>>> unit for around £100.
>>>>>> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4 hours at
>>>>>> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external
>>>> batts is
>>>>>> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA
>>>> UPS
>>>>>> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally)
>>>> might
>>>>>> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
>>>>>> profile that limits max run time)
>>>>>>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a
>>>> power
>>>>>>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external power
>>>>>>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If
>>>> aom
>>>>>>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if sized
>>>> for
>>>>>>> a 5kWp array?
>>>>>> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so
>>>> can't
>>>>>> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed to
>>>>>> time shift consumption however should be able to work without
>>>> external
>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since they
>>>>>> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of the
>>>>>> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
>>>>>> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
>>>>>> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the inverter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>>>>> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>>>>> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>>>>> Battery life: 1 lifetime
>>>>> Self discharge: none
>>>>> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>>>>> Reliability: vastly better
>>>>> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>>>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>>>> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?
>>>
>>> Where I used gas for backup light I never found it a problem, it hung
>>> somewhere very easy to get to. Certainly far less total hassle than
>>> anything electric.
>> That's silly with a well designed led with a decent Li ion battery
>> which is plugged into the mains all the time and which comes
>> on automatically when the mains has failed and the light level
>> is low enough to warrant turning the leds on.
>
> Gas lighting happily sits there for north of 50 years, still ready to fire up any time. No battery tech can or come anywhere that kind of reliability. But go ahead, waste time & money on the unreliable option.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 07:55:24 +1100, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> wrote:

> On 25/11/2022 18:45, Animal wrote:
>> On Friday, 25 November 2022 at 02:21:21 UTC, farter wrote:
>>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:16:50 +1100, Animal <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting
>>>>> circuit, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RCBOs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RCBO
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> room or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft /
>>>>> downstairs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shower
>>>>>>>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your
>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>> may depend on the answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are
>>>>> not so
>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with the layout.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't
>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
>>>>>>>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
>>>>>>>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
>>>>>>>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
>>>>>>>>>> illumination.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good points and well made :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger
>>>>> battery
>>>>>>>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground,
>>>>> 1st
>>>>>>>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion
>>>>>>>>>> batteries.....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
>>>>>>>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer
>>>>> unit
>>>>>>>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless
>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>> knows different?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at
>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many
>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the
>>>>> box,
>>>>>>>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal
>>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
>>>>>>>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
>>>>>>>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product
>>>>> combinations
>>>>>>>>> that match.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> e.g. start with:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Add another *two* of these:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
>>>>>>>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
>>>>>>> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get
>>>>> more
>>>>>>> commercial prices!
>>>>>>>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a
>>>>> 750VA
>>>>>>>> unit for around £100.
>>>>>>> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4 hours
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external
>>>>> batts is
>>>>>>> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA
>>>>> UPS
>>>>>>> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally)
>>>>> might
>>>>>>> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
>>>>>>> profile that limits max run time)
>>>>>>>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a
>>>>> power
>>>>>>>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external
>>>>>>>> power
>>>>>>>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If
>>>>> aom
>>>>>>>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if
>>>>>>>> sized
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> a 5kWp array?
>>>>>>> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so
>>>>> can't
>>>>>>> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> time shift consumption however should be able to work without
>>>>> external
>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of the
>>>>>>> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
>>>>>>> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
>>>>>>> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the
>>>>>>> inverter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
>>>>>> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
>>>>>> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
>>>>>> Battery life: 1 lifetime
>>>>>> Self discharge: none
>>>>>> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
>>>>>> Reliability: vastly better
>>>>>> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
>>>>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
>>>>> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?
>>>>
>>>> Where I used gas for backup light I never found it a problem, it hung
>>>> somewhere very easy to get to. Certainly far less total hassle than
>>>> anything electric.
>>> That's silly with a well designed led with a decent Li ion battery
>>> which is plugged into the mains all the time and which comes
>>> on automatically when the mains has failed and the light level
>>> is low enough to warrant turning the leds on.

On Friday, 25 November 2022 at 20:55:29 UTC, SH wrote:
> On 25/11/2022 18:45, Animal wrote:
> > On Friday, 25 November 2022 at 02:21:21 UTC, farter wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:16:50 +1100, Animal <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, 15 November 2022 at 00:48:17 UTC, Colin Bignell wrote:
> >>>> On 14/11/2022 22:55, Animal wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 14:17:44 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
> >>>>>> On 13/11/2022 18:11, SH wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 13:36, John Rumm wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 13/11/2022 09:01, SH wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 12/11/2022 18:47, John Rumm wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 12/11/2022 06:30, John J wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, 11 November 2022 at 14:27:13 UTC, SH wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have a downstairs lighting circuit, a 1st floor lighting
> >>>> circuit, a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Garage lighting circuit and a Loft lighting circuit on 4 off 6A
> >>>>>>>>>>>> RCBOs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I also have a Smoke, Heat and CO detectors circuit on a 6A RCBO
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> present in EVERY room (16 interlinked detectors.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now I want to fit an emergency light to every room ceiling
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So thus I can wire either into the exisiting detector for that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> room or
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the ceiling light fitting in the room.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now my question for discussion: WHich is more sensible and why?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If it makes any difference some rooms (garage / loft /
> >>>> downstairs
> >>>>>>>>>>>> shower
> >>>>>>>>>>>> room) have no windows.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know my way around our house in the dark.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Not going to make a good epitaph thought is it?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Can you do it when just woken, in smoke, when drunk etc. Your
> >>>> life
> >>>>>>>>>> may depend on the answer.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Now can everyone else in the house, including guests that are
> >>>> not so
> >>>>>>>>>> familiar with the layout.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There's a torch kept near the consumer unit. While I don't
> >>>> disagree
> >>>>>>>>>>> that emergency lights are handy you do sound a bit obsessive.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Every room - perhaps, but then again we don't actually know what
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> OPs requirements and needs are.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have balance problems, very early cataracts and poor eyesight
> >>>>>>>>> contrast sensitivity so a torch in a room simply does not cut it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The whole room needs to be lit during a power cut to keep myself
> >>>>>>>>> safe. (The vestibular system relies on eyesight too believe it or
> >>>>>>>>> not, and my eyesight sensitivity means I can't pick out objects
> >>>>>>>>> visually and my cataracts means I have to have higher levels of
> >>>>>>>>> illumination.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Good points and well made :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It strikes me it would be more cost effective to put 4 bigger
> >>>> battery
> >>>>>>>>> packs next to the home CU to do the 4 lighting circuits (ground,
> >>>> 1st
> >>>>>>>>> floor, Loft and garage/outside lights than it is to go round every
> >>>>>>>>> single light fitting poking in inverters and Li Ion batteries......
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> (Quick mentral calculation:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ground floor is 42 off 4 watt bulbs = 168 watts max load.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 1st floor is 23 off 4 watt bulbs so thats 96 watts max load.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> loft is two flourries currently but can change this. (I know this
> >>>> one
> >>>>>>>>> sounds daft but it was done for the day when we have a loft
> >>>>>>>>> conversion and made into a full lighting circuit)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The garage/outside is 2 flourries (can change), 2.4 m LED batten
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> 14 10w or 20w LED floods and 5 5 LED bulbs.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> SO have wondered about using some computer UPS next to consumer
> >>>> unit
> >>>>>>>>> but I don't think an UPS would last for 3 hours or more unless
> >>>> anyone
> >>>>>>>>> knows different?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In total load terms that is not a huge amount. Yes a UPS will do
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> trick. What you tend to find with most "integrated" UPS devices is
> >>>>>>>> they have battery capacity to provide a few mins of support at full
> >>>>>>>> load, and then the time extends at lower loads. However for many
> >>>> there
> >>>>>>>> is an upper limit on run time due to the parasitic losses running
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> inverter. So You might get an hour and a half out of a large one -
> >>>> but
> >>>>>>>> that would be the run time even with no external load at all.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The solution is to move away from integrated UPS solutions where
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> only battery capacity available is that which is contained in the
> >>>> box,
> >>>>>>>> to one where you can add additional capacity.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> At it's simplest level this might be by modding a normal integrated
> >>>>>>>> one with more batteries, or looking at slightly more commercially
> >>>>>>>> focussed options. Then you can usually design not only the load you
> >>>>>>>> need to support, but also the run time you need.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Many of the UPS vendors sites have selection tools that let you
> >>>>>>>> specify the load and run time, and they can offer product
> >>>> combinations
> >>>>>>>> that match.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> e.g. start with:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-1000VA-230V-with-Extended-Runtime-Battery-Pack/P-SRV1KIL
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Add another *two* of these:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Easy-UPS-On-Line-SRV-Battery-Pack-1kVA-for-Extended-Runtime-Model-36V-648VAh/P-SRV36BP-9A
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That gets you more than 4 hours at full load.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the cost of the UPS and extra batteries is more shocking than my
> >>>>>>> electricity bill!!!! :-D
> >>>>>> Well as you move to more commercial targeted kit, you tend to get
> >>>> more
> >>>>>> commercial prices!
> >>>>>>> mind you its been ages since I bought an UPS, the last one was a
> >>>> 750VA
> >>>>>>> unit for around £100.
> >>>>>> To be fair my example was a bit excessive - you don't need 4 hours at
> >>>>>> full load, and it may be that a smaller power UPS with external
> >>>> batts is
> >>>>>> available - that was what came to hand quickly. Even a cheap 450VA
> >>>> UPS
> >>>>>> hooked up to much bigger than usual SLA batts (mounted externally)
> >>>> might
> >>>>>> do the trick. (assuming they inverter does not have a temperature
> >>>>>> profile that limits max run time)
> >>>>>>> someone mentioned the other day that if you have solar PV and a
> >>>> power
> >>>>>>> wall fitted, you can have backup power if there is an external power
> >>>>>>> interruption and the house then becomes islanded? Is this true? If
> >>>> aom
> >>>>>>> what is the typical kVA and typical runtime of the battery if sized
> >>>> for
> >>>>>>> a 5kWp array?
> >>>>>> Your bog standard Solar PV will use a grid tied inverter, and so
> >>>> can't
> >>>>>> function without mains power. More sophisticated systems designed to
> >>>>>> time shift consumption however should be able to work without
> >>>> external
> >>>>>> power.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There is no easy answer to the sizing / run time questions since they
> >>>>>> are interdependent. The KVA is more related to max the power of the
> >>>>>> inverter rather than the battery (assuming it can provide adequate
> >>>>>> current to meet the power demand of the inverter). The run time is
> >>>>>> dependant on the capacity of the batts, and the load on the inverter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gas backup lighting is so much easier.
> >>>>> Cost of light: £5-20, probably a bit more now
> >>>>> Installation procedure: screw in a hook
> >>>>> Battery life: 1 lifetime
> >>>>> Self discharge: none
> >>>>> Run time: much longer than any battery based system
> >>>>> Reliability: vastly better
> >>>>> Outputs: about 60w equivalent of light with 400w of heat. Will boil
> >>>> water & cook things, though not very quickly.
> >>>> Does it come on automatically when the power fails though?
> >>>
> >>> Where I used gas for backup light I never found it a problem, it hung
> >>> somewhere very easy to get to. Certainly far less total hassle than
> >>> anything electric.
> >> That's silly with a well designed led with a decent Li ion battery
> >> which is plugged into the mains all the time and which comes
> >> on automatically when the mains has failed and the light level
> >> is low enough to warrant turning the leds on.
> >
> > Gas lighting happily sits there for north of 50 years, still ready to fire up any time. No battery tech can or come anywhere that kind of reliability. But go ahead, waste time & money on the unreliable option.
> So you're suggesting I solder in a gas distribution network all over the
> house to a load of ceiling mounted gas lamps?

In message <tlra3t$1gj$2@gioia.aioe.org>, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com>
writes

>So you're suggesting I solder in a gas distribution network all over
>the house to a load of ceiling mounted gas lamps?

We had another power cut a few days ago. Plenty of warning, not least
the lights flickering a couple of times, so well prepared.

The gas lighting in question is Camping Gaz, not mains supply.
Individual, portable lights with disposable gas containers. Not the
cheapest way to buy gas, but convenient, and certainly give off a good
light, more than enough to light a room, far more so than torches
whether conventional or LED, and stored gas (or Gaz) canisters do not
expire, like batteries. Works for us.

--
Graeme

On 27/11/2022 08:03, Graeme wrote:
> In message <tlra3t$1gj$2@gioia.aioe.org>, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> writes
>
>> So you're suggesting I solder in a gas distribution network all over
>> the house to a load of ceiling mounted gas lamps?
>
> We had another power cut a few days ago.  Plenty of warning, not least
> the lights flickering a couple of times, so well prepared.
>
> The gas lighting in question is Camping Gaz, not mains supply.
> Individual, portable lights with disposable gas containers.  Not the
> cheapest way to buy gas, but convenient, and certainly give off a good
> light, more than enough to light a room, far more so than torches
> whether conventional or LED, and stored gas (or Gaz) canisters do not
> expire, like batteries.  Works for us.
>

I am comfortable with using Camping gaz lamps outdoors but I would be
wary of using them indoors due to CO and CO2 production as well as the
attendant fire risk if one should be knocked over (like candles) and
there is also the PM10 soot particulates as well.

On 27/11/2022 08:03, Graeme wrote:
> In message <tlra3t$1gj$2@gioia.aioe.org>, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com> writes
>
>> So you're suggesting I solder in a gas distribution network all over
>> the house to a load of ceiling mounted gas lamps?
>
> We had another power cut a few days ago.  Plenty of warning, not least
> the lights flickering a couple of times, so well prepared.
>
> The gas lighting in question is Camping Gaz, not mains supply.
> Individual, portable lights with disposable gas containers.  Not the
> cheapest way to buy gas, but convenient, and certainly give off a good
> light, more than enough to light a room, far more so than torches
> whether conventional or LED, and stored gas (or Gaz) canisters do not
> expire, like batteries.  Works for us.
>

You do, however, have to store the canisters carefully, to avoid
rusting, and you should only store unused canisters. Storing part used
canisters can present an explosion risk.

They also don't come on automatically when the power fails, so some
emergency lighting is advisable as well.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 23:28:29 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 27/11/2022 08:03, Graeme wrote:
>> In message <tlra3t$1gj$2@gioia.aioe.org>, SH <i.love.spam@spam.com>
>> writes
>>
>>> So you're suggesting I solder in a gas distribution network all over
>>> the house to a load of ceiling mounted gas lamps?
>> We had another power cut a few days ago. Plenty of warning, not least
>> the lights flickering a couple of times, so well prepared.
>> The gas lighting in question is Camping Gaz, not mains supply.
>> Individual, portable lights with disposable gas containers. Not the
>> cheapest way to buy gas, but convenient, and certainly give off a good
>> light, more than enough to light a room, far more so than torches
>> whether conventional or LED, and stored gas (or Gaz) canisters do not
>> expire, like batteries. Works for us.

> You do, however, have to store the canisters carefully, to avoid
> rusting,

Not a problem with the bigger Primus gas cylinders.

> and you should only store unused canisters.Storing part used canisters
> can present an explosion risk.

Also not a problem with the bigger Primus gas cylinders.

In theory the cylinders do eventually pass the date
at which they can still be refilled, but now that LPG
is available for cars, it is trivial to ignore that.

But IMO led battery lights are far more viable and
you don't have the risk of CO or the fragile mantles.

> They also don't come on automatically when the power fails, so some
> emergency lighting is advisable as well.