I noticed an email from Gmail earlier, and it appears to be saying that
programs like Outlook Express may no longer work after 10th May due to new
security log in measures. Although it is not specific, that was what
Understood. For those of us who still want to use a common interface client
for news and Email, then I do not even know if Tbird will work. In the
meantime I opened an outlook account, but after a lot of faffing about I did
get sort of the web interface working but as usual for the blind its a
tiresome slow mess, so I put in an account to Outlook Express with the
correct server names and ports etc, but nothing happens. I am told I have to
enable pop3 in my web mail page, but the settings button, menu or whatever
is not obvious tabbing about, so has anyone done this? If you did, did it
actually work in OE and if I tried to set one up in Yahoo, which seems to be
the only other accessible free vendor of Email, am I going to have issues
there as well.

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

On 08/03/2022 09:26, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I noticed an email from Gmail earlier, and it appears to be saying that
> programs like Outlook Express may no longer work after 10th May due to new
> security log in measures. Although it is not specific, that was what
> Understood. For those of us who still want to use a common interface client
> for news and Email, then I do not even know if Tbird will work. In the
> meantime I opened an outlook account, but after a lot of faffing about I did
> get sort of the web interface working but as usual for the blind its a
> tiresome slow mess, so I put in an account to Outlook Express with the
> correct server names and ports etc, but nothing happens. I am told I have to
> enable pop3 in my web mail page, but the settings button, menu or whatever
> is not obvious tabbing about, so has anyone done this? If you did, did it
> actually work in OE and if I tried to set one up in Yahoo, which seems to be
> the only other accessible free vendor of Email, am I going to have issues
> there as well.
>
> Brian
>

Sorry Brian, I can't help with OE.
If you look in alt.comp.software.thunderbird there's lots of chat here
about GMail and OAuth2 requirements.
Note Thunderbird doesn't do OAth2 over POP3 only IMAP
Google is currently a problem for me as I changed phone number and they
keep insisting on sending messages to old phone.

I've looked through microsoft.public.outlook* groups - doesn't seem to
be anything to help you.

Cheers

--
Chris Elvidge
England

Brian Gaff wrote:

> I noticed an email from Gmail earlier, and it appears to be saying that
> programs like Outlook Express may no longer work after 10th May due to new
> security log in measures.

Yes and no.

Google would really prefer everyone to use oAuth2 to login, thunderbird does
support that, but Outhouse is too old to support it.

Therefore you are probably relying on a setting within your google account to
enable "less secure apps" the notice from google is saying that option will be
going away soon.

But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step verification" on
your google account, once that is on you can create an "app specific password"
within your google account, and give that password to Outhouse instead of your
normal google passworm.

The effect of enabling the two step option is that when you login to any google
website, it will send a popup message (not an SMS) to your phone or fondle slab
linked to your google account, asking if it's actually you, but there is an
option to say "remember me" so it's not going to annoy you every single time you
login, generally just on new devices, but more often if you clear out cookies.

Also you might need to see how well two step verification plays with screen
readers, maybe experiment with it when you have a sighted person available?

Chris Elvidge wrote:

> Thunderbird doesn't do OAth2 over POP3 only IMAP

<panto>Oh yes it does</panto>

provided you're not stuck on a very ancient version of thunderbird.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 08:26:24 -0000
"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> I noticed an email from Gmail earlier, and it appears to be saying that
> programs like Outlook Express may no longer work after 10th May due to
> new security log in measures.

If I didn't have my own domain and mail setup I'd be looking
seriously at protonmail which uses PGP by default and lives under Swiss
data protection law. They don't do IMAP or POP3 by default but they have
a bridge product which seems to act as a local IMAP access point and talks
their encrypted protocols. Their free tier seems to be good enough for
personal use.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 09:47:29 +0000
Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:

> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that
> password to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.

That is IMHO a vastly preferable and more secure option than oAuth2
which was originally about sharing users between applications - even across
suppliers.

When I was on the Yahoo! front page team (doing the crazily over
functional version loaded with slide out widgets and all sorts of excessive
JavaScript magic with the *back* end written in PHP[5]) we used oAuth to
link widgets on the Yahoo! front page to things like arsebook and gmail
account - I never did see how much of that data was scraped into the Yahoo!
user database and advert server.

[5] Rasmus Lerdof used to complain regularly that we were using PHP in all
the wrong ways - but he still took the (undoubtedly) lucrative wbo.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>
>> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
>> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
>> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that
>> password to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.
>
> That is IMHO a vastly preferable and more secure option

Except that the two-step isn't actually used by the email client at all, it's
merely a pre-condition of creating the second password for the email client.

> than oAuth2 which was originally about sharing users between applications -
> even across suppliers.
Yes, I don't trust oAuth2 as a way to propagate authentication from one service
provider to another, one of the original authors left the project over it
reducing security in the name of being one commercial ring to bind them all.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 12:44:00 +0000
Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> > Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> >
> >> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
> >> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
> >> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that
> >> password to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.
> >
> > That is IMHO a vastly preferable and more secure option
>
> Except that the two-step isn't actually used by the email client at all,
> it's merely a pre-condition of creating the second password for the email
> client.

Splort!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 09:47:28 +0100, Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net>
wrote:
>Sorry Brian, I can't help with OE.
>If you look in alt.comp.software.thunderbird there's lots of chat here
>about GMail and OAuth2 requirements.
>Note Thunderbird doesn't do OAth2 over POP3 only IMAP
>Google is currently a problem for me as I changed phone number and they
>keep insisting on sending messages to old phone.
>
>I've looked through microsoft.public.outlook* groups - doesn't seem to
>be anything to help you.
>
>Cheers
I can't see alt.comp.softwre.thunderbird using Agent.
I was interested because recently Thunderbird has kept losing
connection with my Yahoo account, but my Gmail and BT accounts are
fine. This happens on both Windows and Linux. I've gone back to using
a much earlier version of Thunderbird which behaves properly.
--
Dave W

On 08/03/2022 09:48, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> Chris Elvidge wrote:
>
>> Thunderbird doesn't do OAth2 over POP3 only IMAP
>
> <panto>Oh yes it does</panto>
>
> provided you're not stuck on a very ancient version of thunderbird.

You haven't forgotten which newsgroup you're in, have you?

Dave W wrote:

> I can't see alt.comp.softwre.thunderbird using Agent.

It has existed for nearly a year now <glint>, it seems you're using E-S, which
certainly carries it, so just do a refresh groups under subscribe.

> I was interested because recently Thunderbird has kept losing

I use TB v91.x, I think oAuth2 was supported from around v78.x fro POP and IMAP,
perhaps earlier for IMAP only, it's clear that gmail would prefer everyone to
use oAuth, I'd recommend go the whole hog now, rather than switch to app
specific passworms now, then have to change again when they decide to remove
those in a multifortnight.

Mozilla have made it quite clear they're unafraid of b0rking stuff in the name
of progress, some people react by saying "ok I'll stick on trusted version"
which is fine, except when something big comes along and you ARRQ a version with
a nw feature, you'll encounter a metricpencton of changes all in one go, rather
than spreading the pain thinly.

I've mo idea what it all means either. Surely if the connection is encrypted
then there should be little need for more than a username and password. I
seriously think Google want everyone to use webmail or their own smart phone
client, since then you have to see their inane adverts that screw up the
accessibility since they come from a third party feed and could drive a
screenreader bonkers.
Surely I don't have to buy Office latest version for email and use
something else for news. I think, though that solution might well be better
than trying to learn the keystrokes for Third unless you can configure them
to match outlook express keys.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mike Fleming" <mike@tauzero.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j8q200FbcqnU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 08/03/2022 09:48, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>> Chris Elvidge wrote:
>>
>>> Thunderbird doesn't do OAth2 over POP3 only IMAP
>>
>> <panto>Oh yes it does</panto>
>>
>> provided you're not stuck on a very ancient version of thunderbird.
>
> You haven't forgotten which newsgroup you're in, have you?

There really should be no need for any of this mess in my view, unless you
are tremendously silly with what you put in an email the chances of problems
of your own doing seem to be minimal. Its usually the email service that
gets hacked and no amount of fancy encryption passwords or three hundred
checks you ar e a human will fix.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tease'n'Seize" <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote in message
news:NqCdnfYqArXg9bX_nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
> Dave W wrote:
>
>> I can't see alt.comp.softwre.thunderbird using Agent.
>
> It has existed for nearly a year now <glint>, it seems you're using E-S,
> which certainly carries it, so just do a refresh groups under subscribe.
>
>> I was interested because recently Thunderbird has kept losing
>
> I use TB v91.x, I think oAuth2 was supported from around v78.x fro POP and
> IMAP, perhaps earlier for IMAP only, it's clear that gmail would prefer
> everyone to use oAuth, I'd recommend go the whole hog now, rather than
> switch to app specific passworms now, then have to change again when they
> decide to remove those in a multifortnight.
>
> Mozilla have made it quite clear they're unafraid of b0rking stuff in the
> name of progress, some people react by saying "ok I'll stick on trusted
> version" which is fine, except when something big comes along and you ARRQ
> a version with a nw feature, you'll encounter a metricpencton of changes
> all in one go, rather than spreading the pain thinly.

But many do that already, Dropbox for example, if i use a new or different
machine says is this you sent to the registered second address for the
account set up. I just click yes and all is well again.
I will have to get some sighted help as I hate the google pages set up most
of the time, you are often none the wiser what you set until it has screwed
it up.

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tease'n'Seize" <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote in message
news:ge6dndDEE6Suu7r_nZ2dnUU7-RvNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
> Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> I noticed an email from Gmail earlier, and it appears to be saying that
>> programs like Outlook Express may no longer work after 10th May due to
>> new
>> security log in measures.
>
> Yes and no.
>
> Google would really prefer everyone to use oAuth2 to login, thunderbird
> does support that, but Outhouse is too old to support it.
>
> Therefore you are probably relying on a setting within your google account
> to enable "less secure apps" the notice from google is saying that option
> will be going away soon.
>
> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that password
> to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.
>
> The effect of enabling the two step option is that when you login to any
> google website, it will send a popup message (not an SMS) to your phone or
> fondle slab linked to your google account, asking if it's actually you,
> but there is an option to say "remember me" so it's not going to annoy you
> every single time you login, generally just on new devices, but more often
> if you clear out cookies.
>
> Also you might need to see how well two step verification plays with
> screen readers, maybe experiment with it when you have a sighted person
> available?
>

Is this the famous log into this service using your google account thing? I
have tried this and half the time it fails miserably saying that the google
password is not secure. Pardon me, but its never been hacked thus far in
many many years.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tease'n'Seize" <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote in message
news:G5KdnXH6SbQP0rr_nZ2dnUU7-T_NnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>>
>>> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
>>> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
>>> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that
>>> password to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.
>>
>> That is IMHO a vastly preferable and more secure option
>
> Except that the two-step isn't actually used by the email client at all,
> it's merely a pre-condition of creating the second password for the email
> client.
>
>> than oAuth2 which was originally about sharing users between
>> applications -
>> even across suppliers.
> Yes, I don't trust oAuth2 as a way to propagate authentication from one
> service provider to another, one of the original authors left the project
> over it reducing security in the name of being one commercial ring to bind
> them all.

The Google motto used to be "Do no evil", now it seems to be "All your
data belong to us."

The reason they want you to use their mail client and web mail is so
they can sell the data on what you look at to their advertisers.

On 09/03/2022 11:36, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I seriously think Google want everyone to use webmail or their own smart phone client, since then you have to see their inane adverts that screw up the accessibility since they come from a third party feed and could drive a screenreader bonkers.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Brian Gaff wrote:

> Surely if the connection is encrypted
> then there should be little need for more than a username and password.

Yes that's true, if your client and their server both use SSL or STARTTLS, and
the correct port number, then sending a username and password in plain text is
fine, but there's so many ways for the encryption to go wrong, then you end up
accidentally sending your passworm in plain text over teh internets.

Brian Gaff wrote:

> Is this the famous log into this service using your google account thing?

Yes, that's one of the ideas behind oauth2, but not in this case, where you're
using a google account to login to gmail, so it's not going across providers, if
you don't trust google to do that, then you probably don't want to be using them
fullstop

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 12:44:00 +0000, Tease'n'Seize
<tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:

>Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>>
>>> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
>>> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
>>> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that
>>> password to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.
>>
>> That is IMHO a vastly preferable and more secure option
>
>Except that the two-step isn't actually used by the email client at all, it's
>merely a pre-condition of creating the second password for the email client.
>
>> than oAuth2 which was originally about sharing users between applications -
>> even across suppliers.
>Yes, I don't trust oAuth2 as a way to propagate authentication from one service
>provider to another, one of the original authors left the project over it
>reducing security in the name of being one commercial ring to bind them all.

I don't want to distract from the issues that Brian is trying to
resolve but may I fork off into a more general question about internet
security?

An article in the Grauniad suggests that Virgin Money have now made it
impossible to manage their credit card account without a smartphone.
<https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/09/i-cant-manage-my-virgin-credit-card-account-without-a-smartphone>

I suspect that is the direction of travel and Virgin Money won't be
the last to do this. But is a smartphone actually a more secure way to
do banking? Or is it just the fashionable way?

A few years ago the answer was relatively straightforward -
illustrated by the legend that when Ross Anderson was asked which
smartphone banking app he would recommend, the answer was reputedly
none of them.

But times have changed. I do my banking from a laptop using a fresh
Live Linux iteration which I shut down after each session and I think
I'm pretty secure. I don't own anything one could meaningfully call a
smartphone: am I going to have to buy one and learn how to use it?

Nick

On 10/03/2022 00:20, Nick Odell wrote:

>
> I suspect that is the direction of travel and Virgin Money won't be
> the last to do this. But is a smartphone actually a more secure way to
> do banking? Or is it just the fashionable way?
>
Guess...

> A few years ago the answer was relatively straightforward -
> illustrated by the legend that when Ross Anderson was asked which
> smartphone banking app he would recommend, the answer was reputedly
> none of them.
>
I don't think that situation has changed much. The core of the problems
seems to be Google and Apple, both of whom use a large hose vacuum
cleaner to collect all the data about their users they can, then sell it on.

> But times have changed. I do my banking from a laptop using a fresh
> Live Linux iteration which I shut down after each session and I think
> I'm pretty secure. I don't own anything one could meaningfully call a
> smartphone: am I going to have to buy one and learn how to use it?
>
The choices at the moment, unless you can find a way to let Android Apps
play with Linux is whether you share your data with Google or Apple. I
used to be able to keep my Windows phone more or less private, but they
discontinued support, so that was the end of that.

You can get or make Linux phones, if you need one. This may be of
interest to you, as it is allegedly Android compatible but has nothing
to do with Google.

https://sailfishos.org/

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 02:02:50 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 10/03/2022 00:20, Nick Odell wrote:
>
>>
>> I suspect that is the direction of travel and Virgin Money won't be
>> the last to do this. But is a smartphone actually a more secure way to
>> do banking? Or is it just the fashionable way?
>>
>Guess...
>
>> A few years ago the answer was relatively straightforward -
>> illustrated by the legend that when Ross Anderson was asked which
>> smartphone banking app he would recommend, the answer was reputedly
>> none of them.
>>
>I don't think that situation has changed much. The core of the problems
>seems to be Google and Apple, both of whom use a large hose vacuum
>cleaner to collect all the data about their users they can, then sell it on.
>
>> But times have changed. I do my banking from a laptop using a fresh
>> Live Linux iteration which I shut down after each session and I think
>> I'm pretty secure. I don't own anything one could meaningfully call a
>> smartphone: am I going to have to buy one and learn how to use it?
>>
>The choices at the moment, unless you can find a way to let Android Apps
>play with Linux is whether you share your data with Google or Apple. I
>used to be able to keep my Windows phone more or less private, but they
>discontinued support, so that was the end of that.
>
>You can get or make Linux phones, if you need one. This may be of
>interest to you, as it is allegedly Android compatible but has nothing
>to do with Google.
>
>https://sailfishos.org/

I've looked at that and made a note of it for future reference,
thanks, John. What would really interest me is the knowledge that I
wouldn't be compelled to migrate from computer to mobile phone to do
ordinary things in the near future.

Of course banks and other financial service providers are run for
profit and they are entitled to make good/bad decisions and
enjoy/suffer the consequences. What really cvffrf zr bss is the
creeping requirement to be a smartphone user in order to access public
services - highlighted recently through the retreat into their
fortresses of some medical, local authority and government services.

Nick

Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in
news:o7hj2hh2fkhgu6ld2v5klbko51r2dikvub@4ax.com:

>
> I've looked at that and made a note of it for future reference,
> thanks, John. What would really interest me is the knowledge that I
> wouldn't be compelled to migrate from computer to mobile phone to do
> ordinary things in the near future.

I can still do my (First Direct) banking on my PC but need my smart fone to
complete authorisation when logging in. If I didnt have a fobile moan I
could ask the bank to supply a dongle to provide the pass code - I used to
have one but gave it up when the flattery ran out after about 10 years.

SWMBO won't have a smart phone so she would have to use a dongle except that
she has a better idea - she leaves all the banking to me.

--
Peter
-----

On 10/03/2022 11:10, Peter wrote:
> Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in
> news:o7hj2hh2fkhgu6ld2v5klbko51r2dikvub@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> I've looked at that and made a note of it for future reference,
>> thanks, John. What would really interest me is the knowledge that I
>> wouldn't be compelled to migrate from computer to mobile phone to do
>> ordinary things in the near future.
>
> I can still do my (First Direct) banking on my PC but need my smart fone to
> complete authorisation when logging in. If I didnt have a fobile moan I
> could ask the bank to supply a dongle to provide the pass code - I used to
> have one but gave it up when the flattery ran out after about 10 years.
>

I have one with my Nationwide account - it even has a replaceable
battery. Better, well more secure, than phone/sms.

My Thunderbird is 52.2.1 - no OAuth2 on POP3.
Because it works with the add-ons I use and like.

> SWMBO won't have a smart phone so she would have to use a dongle except that
> she has a better idea - she leaves all the banking to me.
>

--
Chris Elvidge
England

On 2022-03-10, Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 12:44:00 +0000, Tease'n'Seize
><tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:
>
>>Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>>>
>>>> But there is another way, it requires you to enable "two step
>>>> verification" on your google account, once that is on you can create an
>>>> "app specific password" within your google account, and give that
>>>> password to Outhouse instead of your normal google passworm.
>>>
>>> That is IMHO a vastly preferable and more secure option
>>
>>Except that the two-step isn't actually used by the email client at all, it's
>>merely a pre-condition of creating the second password for the email client.
>>
>>> than oAuth2 which was originally about sharing users between applications -
>>> even across suppliers.
>>Yes, I don't trust oAuth2 as a way to propagate authentication from one service
>>provider to another, one of the original authors left the project over it
>>reducing security in the name of being one commercial ring to bind them all.
>
>
> I don't want to distract from the issues that Brian is trying to
> resolve but may I fork off into a more general question about internet
> security?
>
> An article in the Grauniad suggests that Virgin Money have now made it
> impossible to manage their credit card account without a smartphone.
><https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/09/i-cant-manage-my-virgin-credit-card-account-without-a-smartphone>
>
> I suspect that is the direction of travel and Virgin Money won't be
> the last to do this. But is a smartphone actually a more secure way to
> do banking? Or is it just the fashionable way?

It isn't as secure as using a web page but using both together is more
secure than either one alone.

>
> A few years ago the answer was relatively straightforward -
> illustrated by the legend that when Ross Anderson was asked which
> smartphone banking app he would recommend, the answer was reputedly
> none of them.
>
> But times have changed. I do my banking from a laptop using a fresh
> Live Linux iteration which I shut down after each session and I think
> I'm pretty secure. I don't own anything one could meaningfully call a
> smartphone: am I going to have to buy one and learn how to use it?
>

Almost certainly.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 09:41:12 +0000
Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:

> >https://sailfishos.org/
>
> I've looked at that and made a note of it for future reference,

Yes interesting - I wonder if it's related to the sailfish firmware
in my 3D printer (other than running under a Linux kernel) - I see no clear
indications.

> thanks, John. What would really interest me is the knowledge that I
> wouldn't be compelled to migrate from computer to mobile phone to do
> ordinary things in the near future.

Beats going into town between 9:30 and 3:30 and joining the long
queueueue in the bank (much longer between 12:00 and 2:00) only to be handed
a form when you get to the front to fill in and join the queueueue again
when done. It even beats listening to hold music for 45 minutes on the phone
before trying to explain what you want to someone who persistently
misunderstands half of what you say.

> Of course banks and other financial service providers are run for
> profit and they are entitled to make good/bad decisions and

They're probably finding it easier/cheaper to get good app
developers than good web developers.

> enjoy/suffer the consequences. What really cvffrf zr bss is the
> creeping requirement to be a smartphone user in order to access public
> services - highlighted recently through the retreat into their
> fortresses of some medical, local authority and government services.

They are definitely becoming almost inescapably essential, but then
so did a computer with an internet connection and earlier a telephone with
fax machines in the middle - projecting this trend leads to uneasy thoughts
about brain implants following wearable computers, smart watches are
already common and there are people implanting themselves with RFID chips
already.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/