On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 18:39 -0400, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 5:42 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> > On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 17:50 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > > On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu>
[ snip ]
> >
> > Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
> > without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>
> DECnet IV

Oh yes, that's another possibility I neglected to look at.

Many thanks,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 23:48 -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 4/11/22 3:42 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> > Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
> > without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>
> I feel like a one time transfer using a time jumped date game is
> probably something that can be overlooked.  Especially if you already
> have the current (hobbyist) license for the destination (emulated)
> alpha.

True enough, the new hobbyist licences arrived in my mailbox overnight.

Thanks,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2022-04-11, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/11/22 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-04-11, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> Purchase a license from HP leasing
>>>
>>
>> That gets him a VAX OS licence. He will also need the LP licences for
>> the products that he wants to run (including networking).
>>
>> That looks like it could get expensive rather quickly. How much are
>> HP leasing charging for the VAX licences ?
>
> I seriously doubt you could any kind of VAX license from HP.
>

HP leasing Bill, not HP. There are reports of HP leasing selling off
the licences from the various equipment they receive.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-04-11, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
>
> What's the status of AXPBox these days? Does it boot VMS and
> run reliably? I'd love to turn off my aging Alpha, and I've
> got an undersubscribed machine that I'm already paying the power
> bill on running emulation for other machine/OS combos that
> could happy run take over for it.
>

In addition to the problem Bill mentions, there was a report here
a few weeks back that was strongly suspected to be due to an
emulation problem in one of the Linux based Alpha emulators, so
keep that in mind.

For me, on my home network, I use FreeAXP running on an old Windows
box (everything else is Linux so this is something I have also
looked at in the past).

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>
> Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
> without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>

Does anyone know if the simh disk images have a simh header or are they
just raw images ?

If the latter, you can try copying over a copy of the existing simh
disk images and try attaching them to the Alpha emulator you are using
and then mounting them from Alpha VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-04-12, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 18:39 -0400, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 5:42 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>> > On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 17:50 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> > > On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu>
> [ snip ]
>> >
>> > Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
>> > without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>>
>> DECnet IV
>
> Oh yes, that's another possibility I neglected to look at.
>

Doesn't DECnet require a licence to run ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Tue, 2022-04-12 at 12:46 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone know if the simh disk images have a simh header or are
> they just raw images ?
>
> If the latter, you can try copying over a copy of the existing simh
> disk images and try attaching them to the Alpha emulator you are
> using and then mounting them from Alpha VMS.

They're definitely raw images. On Linux, the file command gives this:

$ file vaxvms62sys.dsk vaxvms62sys.dsk: Files-11 On-Disk Structure ODS-
2); VAX/VMS or OpenVMS file system; volume label is 'VMS062 '

So yes, we're good to go.

I've checked that this is also the case with the ES40 AXP emulator:

$ file vms84.dsk vms84.dsk: Files-11 On-Disk Structure (ODS-5); OpenVMS
Alpha or Itanium file system; volume label is 'VMS84 '

Excellent news. Hopefully VMS on Alpha can recognize and mount these
images.

Thanks,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2022-04-12 10:33, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 18:39 -0400, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 5:42 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2022-04-11 at 17:50 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu>
> [ snip ]
>>>
>>> Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
>>> without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>>
>> DECnet IV
>
> Oh yes, that's another possibility I neglected to look at.

If your license expired, DECnet will be as inoperating as TCP/IP.
But if you just lacked a license alltogether for TCP/IP, then maybe
DECnet is an alternative. Change the date. :-)

Johnny

On 4/11/2022 6:56 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 3:44 PM, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 2:29 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't
>>> understand the issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to
>>> play with an old VAX?
>>>
>>> In addition to that, anyone staying current on working with VMS is a
>>> potential resource that just may help VSI.  Such as in a new VMS
>>> customer looking for some VMS experience.
>
> Those looking for VMS experience could just run VMS Alpha.
>
>>> Get off that soapbox ...
>>>
>> When VSI started, VSI got zero rights to anything VAX-specific. That
>> would include generating VAX licenses, hobbyist or not.
>
> I thought the story was that VSI can only create licenses for VSI VMS
> not HP(E) VMS and that VSI has not plans of ever building a
> VSI VMS VAX.
>
VSI didn't have plans for Alpha at the start, but VSI Alpha did happen.

> On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>>
>> Although the question of how I can transfer my stuff off VAX images
>> without TCP/IP licence remains unanswered :-D
>>
>
> Does anyone know if the simh disk images have a simh header or are they
> just raw images ?

If you are using Mark Pizzolato’s simh v4.0 the default is that when you
attach a disk image to a virtual disk it will add metadata directly _to the
image file_, unless you’re attaching it to a CD virtual disk. Consequently,
the modification date for the imag file gets updated

It’s easy to remove this extra data or (if you know how in advance) tell
simh not to add it in the first place.

[That it does this, and by default, has been the subject of some
controversy over at https://github.com/simh/simh but since that’s pretty
off topic for c.o.v the discussion of the controversy should probably not
be “forked” to c.o.v.]

Bob Supnik’s simh v3.x, (which has until very recently kept up with bug
fixes to Mark P.’s version) and earlier do not have such a feature so files
it uses do not contain simh metadata.

On 4/12/2022 10:38 AM, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 6:56 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 3:44 PM, Michael Moroney wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2022 2:29 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> Do you imagine there is even one person at VSI that doesn't
>>>> understand the issues, and doesn't sympathize with people wanting to
>>>> play with an old VAX?
>>>>
>>>> In addition to that, anyone staying current on working with VMS is a
>>>> potential resource that just may help VSI.  Such as in a new VMS
>>>> customer looking for some VMS experience.
>>
>> Those looking for VMS experience could just run VMS Alpha.
>>
>>>> Get off that soapbox ...
>>>>
>>> When VSI started, VSI got zero rights to anything VAX-specific. That
>>> would include generating VAX licenses, hobbyist or not.
>>
>> I thought the story was that VSI can only create licenses for VSI VMS
>> not HP(E) VMS and that VSI has not plans of ever building a
>> VSI VMS VAX.
>>
> VSI didn't have plans for Alpha at the start, but VSI Alpha did happen.

Maybe something to do with a lot of VMS Alpha still used in
production.

:-)

Arne

On Tue, 2022-04-12 at 21:11 +0000, Galen wrote:
> > On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
> >
> .o.v.]
>
> Bob Supnik’s simh v3.x, (which has until very recently kept up with
> bug fixes to Mark P.’s version) and earlier do not have such a
> feature so files it uses do not contain simh metadata.

That's the version I currently use. I did see simh 4.x but fortunately
I didn't need to upgrade and besides I don't want anything fiddling
with mmy images!

Cheers,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 00:28:16 +0100, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:

> On Tue, 2022-04-12 at 21:11 +0000, Galen wrote:
>> > On 2022-04-11, Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>> >
>> .o.v.]
>>
>> Bob Supnik’s simh v3.x, (which has until very recently kept up with bug
>> fixes to Mark P.’s version) and earlier do not have such a feature so
>> files it uses do not contain simh metadata.
>
> That's the version I currently use. I did see simh 4.x but fortunately I
> didn't need to upgrade and besides I don't want anything fiddling with
> mmy images!

Same here. I am also developing a simulator and 4.x is a continually
moving target. I know someone who permanently moved their simulators back
to 3.x for that reason.

I'm sure 4.x is very nice, but to me it's feeping creaturism.

--
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On Wed, 2022-04-13 at 08:24 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 00:28:16 +0100, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> > That's the version I currently use. I did see simh 4.x but
> > fortunately I
> > didn't need to upgrade and besides I don't want anything fiddling
> > with my images!
>
> Same here. I am also developing a simulator and 4.x is a continually
> moving target. I know someone who permanently moved their simulators
> back to 3.x for that reason.
>
> I'm sure 4.x is very nice, but to me it's feeping creaturism.

If there's something I really need from 4.x, I might fork the project,
and move the "meta" data that it puts into the disk images into a
separate file, something like <image filename>.meta

Much nicer and it doesn't need to mess with the raw disk images.

Cheers,
Alex
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 17:50:07 +0100, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:

> If there's something I really need from 4.x, I might fork the project,
> and move the "meta" data that it puts into the disk images into a
> separate file, something like <image filename>.meta
>
> Much nicer and it doesn't need to mess with the raw disk images

Having said that, my SIMH 3.x simulator is going to have to have metadata
in the disk images (when I get to disks).

The reason is that I'm simulating an OEM of the IBM 3340, which allows
variable sized sectors on each track, as long as the total (with headers
etc.) doesn't exceed 13kB. So each simulated track needs to include a
single simulated home block, and a variable number of sector headers.

--
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On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 4:47:52 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:

(snip)

> The reason is that I'm simulating an OEM of the IBM 3340, which allows
> variable sized sectors on each track, as long as the total (with headers
> etc.) doesn't exceed 13kB. So each simulated track needs to include a
> single simulated home block, and a variable number of sector headers.
I thought the 3340 was FBA, but I have never seen or used one.

There is an IBM standard for virtual CKD disks used by the P/370 and
successor systems, and is almost the same as that used by Hercules.

I thought other emulators also used that one.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 15:24:13 +0100, Single Stage to Orbit
<alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:

>Hi
>
>I have booted up my simh VAX instances for the first time for years and
>I find that the hobbyist licences I had for these had expired ages ago.
>
>HP/Montager doesn't do them any more and VSI only do Alpha or x64.
>Are there any other ways I can obtain hobbyist licences?
>
>Many thanks,
>Alex

Tactical Nuclear Kittens - Sans Conniptions.

The VLF consider the loss of any hobbyist, commercial, or
institutional, VAX/VMS, or AXP/VMS, shops to be a profound tragedy -
carry on.

The remedy:

https://pastebin.com/AB8xvgd7

(The PasteBin text snippet website benchmarks "safe to visit")

The usual protocol - if you understand and/or appreciate what the VLF
do, then there is no need make commentary; if you do not understand
and/or do not appreciate what the VLF do, then remain in dignified
silence on the matter, and address your energies and attentions,
instead, to navigating VSI management to enabling a thriving VMS
ecology, for seven generations to come, and then some.

Viva la VMS Mindshare!

Semper VAX; Semper AXP, Semper VMS; Semper DEC.
Best regards,
VLF: The VMS Liberation Front
In VMS We Trust

PS: Another shout out and salute to Monsieur Gérard Calliet and the
team at the VMSgenerations Working Group - the VLF greatly admire
their above ground work, from afar - industry association,
institutional response, aggregate activism, in the relation to VSI is
the way to go, individual petitioning will not cut it.

$!------------------------- damn straight --------------------------!$
$ opprobrium/level=kittens/mode=conniptions/input=VLF:/output=NL: !$
$!-------------------------- enough said ---------------------------!$

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 18:40:49 -0700, gah4 wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 4:47:52 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> The reason is that I'm simulating an OEM of the IBM 3340, which allows
>> variable sized sectors on each track, as long as the total (with
>> headers etc.) doesn't exceed 13kB. So each simulated track needs to
>> include a single simulated home block, and a variable number of sector
>> headers.
>
> I thought the 3340 was FBA, but I have never seen or used one.
>
> There is an IBM standard for virtual CKD disks used by the P/370 and
> successor systems, and is almost the same as that used by Hercules.

Sorry, 3340. I realised two minutes later!

> I thought other emulators also used that one.

Thanks, I'll take a look. I have no particular wish to invent something
new. My point was that a raw disk image won't work.
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On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 11:24:38 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > There is an IBM standard for virtual CKD disks used by the P/370 and
> > successor systems, and is almost the same as that used by Hercules.

> Sorry, 3340. I realised two minutes later!

> > I thought other emulators also used that one.

> Thanks, I'll take a look. I have no particular wish to invent something
> new. My point was that a raw disk image won't work.

And, in case you were wondering, there is a difference in the IBM and Hercules
form when using the track overflow feature, which as far as I know only applies
to the 2314 and 3330. That allows a block to start on one track and continue
onto the next track.

Hercules also has a compressed format that IBM doesn't use.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 01:07:56 -0700, gah4 wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 11:24:38 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>
> (snip, I wrote)
>
>> > There is an IBM standard for virtual CKD disks used by the P/370 and
>> > successor systems, and is almost the same as that used by Hercules.
>
>> Sorry, 3340. I realised two minutes later!
>
>> > I thought other emulators also used that one.
>
>> Thanks, I'll take a look. I have no particular wish to invent something
>> new. My point was that a raw disk image won't work.
>
> And, in case you were wondering, there is a difference in the IBM and
> Hercules form when using the track overflow feature, which as far as I
> know only applies to the 2314 and 3330. That allows a block to start
> on one track and continue onto the next track.

Hmm. Might have to do my own. The track overflow feature is something I
*have* to implement.

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On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:38:13 AM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 01:07:56 -0700, gah4 wrote:

(snip)
> > And, in case you were wondering, there is a difference in the IBM and
> > Hercules form when using the track overflow feature, which as far as I
> > know only applies to the 2314 and 3330. That allows a block to start
> > on one track and continue onto the next track.

> Hmm. Might have to do my own. The track overflow feature is something I
> *have* to implement.

They do implement it, but IBM and Hercules implement it in a different way.
I think it is only one bit somewhere that is in a different place.

Early in the Hercules years, there was interest in running the freely available
(before software copyright existed) MVS 3.8j. It seems that IBM uses
track overflow for the paging file, so it has to work!

On 14/04/2022 23:00, gah4 wrote:
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:38:13 AM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 01:07:56 -0700, gah4 wrote:
>
> (snip)
>>> And, in case you were wondering, there is a difference in the IBM and
>>> Hercules form when using the track overflow feature, which as far as I
>>> know only applies to the 2314 and 3330. That allows a block to start
>>> on one track and continue onto the next track.
>
>> Hmm. Might have to do my own. The track overflow feature is something I
>> *have* to implement.
>
> They do implement it, but IBM and Hercules implement it in a different way.
> I think it is only one bit somewhere that is in a different place.

I don't believe there is any difference EXCEPT Hercules supports
compressed images and also shadow files. Certainly files from my P390
work under Hercules.

>
> Early in the Hercules years, there was interest in running the freely available
> (before software copyright existed) MVS 3.8j. It seems that IBM uses
> track overflow for the paging file, so it has to work!
>

It looks like there some connects in the Hercules source about track
overflow so it certainly supports it now

Dave

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:51:24 +0100, David Wade wrote:

> On 14/04/2022 23:00, gah4 wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:38:13 AM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 01:07:56 -0700, gah4 wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>>> And, in case you were wondering, there is a difference in the IBM and
>>>> Hercules form when using the track overflow feature, which as far as
>>>> I know only applies to the 2314 and 3330. That allows a block to
>>>> start on one track and continue onto the next track.
>>
>>> Hmm. Might have to do my own. The track overflow feature is something
>>> I *have* to implement.
>>
>> They do implement it, but IBM and Hercules implement it in a different
>> way.
>> I think it is only one bit somewhere that is in a different place.
>
> I don't believe there is any difference EXCEPT Hercules supports
> compressed images and also shadow files. Certainly files from my P390
> work under Hercules.
>
>
>> Early in the Hercules years, there was interest in running the freely
>> available (before software copyright existed) MVS 3.8j. It seems that
>> IBM uses track overflow for the paging file, so it has to work!
>>
>>
> It looks like there some connects in the Hercules source about track
> overflow so it certainly supports it now

Thanks. This is all useful stuff. The disks I will be emulating are
obviously from the same OEM; slightly different programming (and
completely different at the controller level) but the same format will be
good.

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On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 4:51:27 AM UTC-7, David Wade wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > They do implement it, but IBM and Hercules implement it in a different way.
> > I think it is only one bit somewhere that is in a different place.

> I don't believe there is any difference EXCEPT Hercules supports
> compressed images and also shadow files. Certainly files from my P390
> work under Hercules.

As long as they don't use track overflow, that is, actually write tracks using it,
you don't notice the difference. As well as I know, the only problem is in the
paging file for MVS, and only on devices that support track overflow.

I had thought it was only 2314 and 3330, but the above suggests 3340.
As well as I know (it was years ago when I thought about this) it is
not on the 3350, 3380, or 3390.

And yes, Hercules also has compression and shadow files.

I did install MVS on a P/370 using the files from Hercules, but I had
to do it from the install (virtual) tapes. Also, you have to change one
bit in control register 0.

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 18:16:58 -0700, gah4 wrote:

> As long as they don't use track overflow, that is, actually write tracks
> using it,
> you don't notice the difference. As well as I know, the only problem is
> in the paging file for MVS, and only on devices that support track
> overflow.

See below.

> I had thought it was only 2314 and 3330, but the above suggests 3340. As
> well as I know (it was years ago when I thought about this) it is not on
> the 3350, 3380, or 3390.

This is an OEM of the 3330 mechanism, using 3336 packs. It's the ICL
EDS100 and EDS200.

The operating system uses the track overflow feature for IPL. The whole
boot program sits in linked records/tracks starting at 0. The IPL thus
loads the entire boot program in one go. I think it's written in separate
records, but I'll implement that anyway.

The boot program is large; it's actually a chopped down supervisor. It
can be IPLd from tape (the tape IPL is more complicated!) and can then be
used to format the disk and copy a system down onto it. It also contains
an extensive GROPE[1] feature, some diagnostics, disk and tape labelling
and a load of other stuff!

[1] For those who don't know...General Reconnaissance Of Peripheral
Equipment!

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Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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