Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 28.05.22 um 11:47 schrieb Rob:
>> When you have "travel inventory" like a portable coffee maker or
>> a travel hair dryer, stuff that you only use a couple of weeks per
>> year and then store away, it is not at all unlikely that it still
>> works after many years. And likely that it does not have automatic
>> adaption to power line voltage.
>
> Not in Europe or elsewhere outside the US or Canada.

You apparently are young.
I well remember the days that I went to the US on holidays (from Europe)
and I DID NEED TO MAKE SPECIAL ARRANGEMENTS for my equipment, which
was all rated for 220-240V, to operate there.

Longer ago (~1983) I went to Japan for work and the voltage there was
even lower, 100V. Same issue.

Rob wrote:

>>> It depends not so much on where it is sold, more on WHEN it was sold.
>>> When you buy something new today it often has a 100-240VAC switchmode
>>> powersupply. But when an elderly couple from the USA goes on a trip
>>> to Europe, I would not rule out that they still have stuff in their
>>> travel inventory that is not that flexible.
>>
>> Then they bought it more than 20 year ago. And these devices still work?
>
> "More than 20 years ago" they actually made devices that kept working.
> The trend of things to fail within a couple of years started later.
>
> When you have "travel inventory" like a portable coffee maker or
> a travel hair dryer, stuff that you only use a couple of weeks per
> year and then store away, it is not at all unlikely that it still
> works after many years. And likely that it does not have automatic
> adaption to power line voltage.

In this discussion nospam is completely correct as nospam has an adult
grasp of what a nominal 120VAC in north america vs a nominal 230VAC in
europe means (and even the nominal 100 VAC in Japan), and how that differs
from what 60Hz vs 50Hz means (especially in Japan where half the country is
on each frequency it seems).

Joerg Lorenz has the grasp of a 10-year-old child of those two concepts.
At least nospam has an adult grasp of that subject material in this case.

The _adult_ fact is that "some" devices (no matter how old or new) will be
adversely affected by the differences in voltage and/or frequency,
depending on the type of device and whether it was designed for the
differences.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the device.

In fact, the US standard was only firmly set in stone in 1984.
And the EU standard was only set firmly in stone in 2008.
<https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/>
--
People like Joerg Lorenz who have the confluence of no education and a low
IQ can't handle the complexities of details, even in something this simple.

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 28 May 2022 11:44:51 -0700, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Now that most hotels have irons and hair dryers available there's not a
>lot of need to carry your own small appliances, at least in the U.S..

That's if you stay in hotels. My roommate did let me use his eletric
beard trimmer last time, but this time I haven't asked him. (Maybe I'll
use scissors.) Other than that, I admit, I don't use appliances when I
travel.

On 05/28/2022 02:49 PM, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 28 May 2022 11:44:51 -0700, sms
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Now that most hotels have irons and hair dryers available there's not a
>>lot of need to carry your own small appliances, at least in the U.S..
>
> That's if you stay in hotels. My roommate did let me use his eletric
> beard trimmer last time, but this time I haven't asked him. (Maybe I'll
> use scissors.) Other than that, I admit, I don't use appliances when I
> travel.

If you feel a need to carry a steam iron I posit that you're doing the
wrong sort of traveling.

That being said, I would have LOVED to have a steam iron once -- we had
driven across the country through a rainstorm (you pretty much can't do
that without passing through a rainstorm at least once) and my husband's
suit was wrinkled from the humidity. We arrived at the hotel Sunday
night and he had a meeting Monday morning. The Holiday Inn could NOT
provide an iron+board because the person with the key to that room was
off shift hours earlier. I can't remember what we did, but it wasn't good.

Not quite like needing the key to the room where the shooter was
working, but still...

--
Cheers, Bev
"Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level.
It's cheaper." -- Quentin Crisp 1908 - 1999

On 5/28/2022 9:40 AM, micky wrote:

<snip>

> I'm sure Rob was not talking about a rechargable razor but one that
> plugs into the wall directly. It's not like one needs to walk down the
> street or even go to another room while he's shaving.

True. But many people use their electric razor in the car. I haven't
seen a corded electric razor in a long time.

On 5/28/2022 8:38 AM, David Higton wrote:
> In message <t6td92$53d$2@dont-email.me>
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> In high-wattage heating devices, when you switch from 110-120V to
>> 220-240V it just uses a diode that chops off the bottom of the sine wave
>> so you're operating the heating element at half the voltage, see
>> <https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/diode39.gif>.
>
> If you run a heating element like that, it's comsuming four times the power
> for half the time, i.e. an overall doubling of the power.

Right, I was talking about plugging a 240V device, with a heating
element, into a 120V outlet without any converter. It's 1/2 the voltage
and 1/2 the current and 1/4 the power.

When I plug my 2500 watt/240V immersion heater into a 120V outlets it
measures just about exactly 625 watts.

On 5/28/2022 2:16 AM, Rob wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/27/2022 10:37 AM, Chris wrote:
>>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Similarly, taking along a plug adapter for whatever country you're
>>>>> visiting is standard operating procedure for experienced travelers.
>>>>
>>>> For a smartphone I'd argue it's better to buy a local charger rather than
>>>> use your home charger + adapter. It's much less clunky. The EU uses the
>>>> same (or close enough not to matter) plug so only one is required.
>>>
>>> I use this one: <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255799997576248.html>.
>>
>> That's what I call clunky. It won't fit well in many of more awkward
>> locations.
>
> Also it is unwise to buy AC-powered equipment on Aliexpress, especially
> when it has weird attachments to adapt between plug standards.

LOL, as opposed to buying the Chinese-made chargers from Amazon, Newegg,
Target, Walmart, Dollar Stores, etc.?

The plugs all work fine and don't fall off. Having multiple USB charging
ports on one device is much more convenient than carrying multiple
chargers. Been using these for several years.

On 5/28/2022 12:31 PM, John Levine wrote:

<snip>

> If they want a phone like a Jitterbug, I think they're out of luck. Those phones only
> work on a single carrier inside the U.S.

The Smart 3 supports only bands 2, 4, 5, 12. If unlocked it would work
on AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon, but Jitterbug uses Verizon. It would not
work in most other countries.

"Thank you for your interest in our GreatCall products. All Jitterbug
cell phones are unlocked per nationwide standards."

It would be a mistake to buy a smart phone from Jitterbug.

>

Am 28.05.22 um 22:22 schrieb Rob:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 28.05.22 um 11:47 schrieb Rob:
>>> When you have "travel inventory" like a portable coffee maker or
>>> a travel hair dryer, stuff that you only use a couple of weeks per
>>> year and then store away, it is not at all unlikely that it still
>>> works after many years. And likely that it does not have automatic
>>> adaption to power line voltage.
>>
>> Not in Europe or elsewhere outside the US or Canada.
>
> You apparently are young.
> I well remember the days that I went to the US on holidays (from Europe)
> and I DID NEED TO MAKE SPECIAL ARRANGEMENTS for my equipment, which
> was all rated for 220-240V, to operate there.

That must have been in the 80s or earlier. And no, I'm not considered
young anymore by a 40 year old person or the other way round an 80year
old person may say I'm still young.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 28 May 2022 22:29:24 +0100, Andy
Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:

>Rob wrote:
>
>>>> It depends not so much on where it is sold, more on WHEN it was sold.
>>>> When you buy something new today it often has a 100-240VAC switchmode
>>>> powersupply. But when an elderly couple from the USA goes on a trip
>>>> to Europe, I would not rule out that they still have stuff in their
>>>> travel inventory that is not that flexible.
>>>
>>> Then they bought it more than 20 year ago. And these devices still work?
>>
>> "More than 20 years ago" they actually made devices that kept working.
>> The trend of things to fail within a couple of years started later.
>>
>> When you have "travel inventory" like a portable coffee maker or
>> a travel hair dryer, stuff that you only use a couple of weeks per
>> year and then store away, it is not at all unlikely that it still
>> works after many years. And likely that it does not have automatic
>> adaption to power line voltage.
>
>In this discussion nospam is completely correct as nospam has an adult
>grasp of what a nominal 120VAC in north america vs a nominal 230VAC in
>europe means (and even the nominal 100 VAC in Japan), and how that differs
>from what 60Hz vs 50Hz means (especially in Japan where half the country is
>on each frequency it seems).
>
>Joerg Lorenz has the grasp of a 10-year-old child of those two concepts.
>At least nospam has an adult grasp of that subject material in this case.
>
>The _adult_ fact is that "some" devices (no matter how old or new) will be
>adversely affected by the differences in voltage and/or frequency,
>depending on the type of device and whether it was designed for the
>differences.
>
>That has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the device.
>
>In fact, the US standard was only firmly set in stone in 1984.
>And the EU standard was only set firmly in stone in 2008.
><https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/>

It says "No matter the voltage, 60Hz is more efficient than 50Hz, a fact
established by Tesla’s pioneering work. (He also preferred 240-volt
power.) 50Hz power is 20 percent less effective in generation, and it is
10-15 percent less efficient in transmission. Electric motors are also
much less efficient at the lower frequency. Today only a handful of
countries (Antigua, Guyana, Peru, the Philippines, South Korea and some
others) follow Tesla’s advice and use the 60 Hz frequency together with
a voltage of 220-240 V."

Why is 60 better than 50 and if it is, why don't we use 70 or 80?

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 5/28/2022 2:16 AM, Rob wrote:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/2022 10:37 AM, Chris wrote:
>>>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similarly, taking along a plug adapter for whatever country you're
>>>>>> visiting is standard operating procedure for experienced travelers.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a smartphone I'd argue it's better to buy a local charger rather than
>>>>> use your home charger + adapter. It's much less clunky. The EU uses the
>>>>> same (or close enough not to matter) plug so only one is required.
>>>>
>>>> I use this one: <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255799997576248.html>.
>>>
>>> That's what I call clunky. It won't fit well in many of more awkward
>>> locations.
>>
>> Also it is unwise to buy AC-powered equipment on Aliexpress, especially
>> when it has weird attachments to adapt between plug standards.
>
> LOL, as opposed to buying the Chinese-made chargers from Amazon, Newegg,
> Target, Walmart, Dollar Stores, etc.?
>
> The plugs all work fine and don't fall off. Having multiple USB charging
> ports on one device is much more convenient than carrying multiple
> chargers. Been using these for several years.

There's someone who does teardown of many of these cheap chinese-made
accessories and they're quite an eye-opener. Just you've had good
experiences doesn't mean they're fine.

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> The _adult_ fact is that "some" devices (no matter how old or new) will be
> adversely affected by the differences in voltage and/or frequency,
> depending on the type of device and whether it was designed for the
> differences.
>
> That has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the device.
>
> In fact, the US standard was only firmly set in stone in 1984.
> And the EU standard was only set firmly in stone in 2008.
> <https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/>

The reason that it was only firmly defined in 2008 is that before
we had 220V "on the continent" and 240V "in the UK". The EU compromise
was to move everyone to 230V. However, that did not require any
change of existing equipment, it is within the existing tolerance
in the voltage.

Also this date has NOTHING to do with "when the troubles with travel
equipment ended". There still is the 1:2 difference in voltage between
parts of the world. What changed is the typical design of equipment
that made it possible to work on 100-240V without user intervention.
That has nothing to do with the above standards, it is just equipment
design and advances in technology that allowed it.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> LOL, you think like me! <https://i.imgur.com/5Gf39Gg.jpg> is what I
> fabricated for the UK and to use on airplanes where the UK socket pins
> tend to not be worn out so the plug stays in.

What's going on about the assymmetric hot/neutral pins? One seems to have a
larger slot than the other. Does one move to accommodate different spacing
of pins? But I can't think of another country that has flat parallel pins
(Europlug are round, China has them angled, UK are too square)

Theo

micky wrote:

>>In fact, the US standard was only firmly set in stone in 1984.
>>And the EU standard was only set firmly in stone in 2008.
>><https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/>
>
> It says "No matter the voltage, 60Hz is more efficient than 50Hz,

I'm glad you read that, as I often provide links so that others can bone up
on the details, so I'm pleasantly surprised you read that article, which, I
admit, contains a few surprising historical facts (as you found out).

> Why is 60 better than 50 and if it is, why don't we use 70 or 80?

That article you read explained it in general terms of generation
efficiency (just as higher AC voltages transmit more efficiently).

This article explains it at the next level of detail
*50 Hz VS 60 Hz ON EFFICIENCY*
<https://powerofengineers.wordpress.com/2020/08/23/why-50hz-and-60hz/>

This gets more technical in explaining the differences.
*Technical Reasons for not using Higher Frequencies*
<https://www.electrical4u.com/why-supply-frequency-is-50-hz-or-60-hz/>

This explanation of the history is interesting in that Westinghouse
engineers had originally "committed to 133 Hz" before Tesla changed that.
*Where did 60 Hz AC Come From?*
<https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/why-is-the-us-standard-60-hz/>

Fun Fact: Aircraft power supplies are 400Hz to reduce size and weight
<http://www.gohz.com/why-we-use-50hz-60hz-or-400hz-frequency>
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

Rob wrote:

>> That has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the device.
>>
>> In fact, the US standard was only firmly set in stone in 1984.
>> And the EU standard was only set firmly in stone in 2008.
>> <https://www.german-way.com/why-is-there-230-volt-power-in-europe-and-120-volts-in-north-america/>
>
> The reason that it was only firmly defined in 2008 is that before
> we had 220V "on the continent" and 240V "in the UK". The EU compromise
> was to move everyone to 230V. However, that did not require any
> change of existing equipment, it is within the existing tolerance
> in the voltage.

The difference between 230VAC & 240VAC is about ~5% or so.

Tolerances get complicated a bit because there are all sorts of tolerances
(as explained in this chart below):
*VOLTAGE TOLERANCE STANDARD �V ANSI C84.1*
<https://voltage-disturbance.com/voltage-quality/voltage-tolerance-standard-ansi-c84-1/>

Which says, for example, that our "service voltage" tolerances in the USA
are +5% to -5% while the "utilization voltage" tolerances are +5% to -10%.

My electrical supplier (PG&E) follows that standard, which they say came
out in 1954, and note the many ways to describe voltages in those tables.
*Public Gas & Electric (PG&E) VOLTAGE TOLERANCE STANDARD �V ANSI C84.1*
<https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/energystatus/powerquality/voltage_tolerance.pdf>

While the devil is in the details, we can summarize that the USA 120VAC
nominal voltage can be founds as a service voltage of 114VAC to 126VAC.
> Also this date has NOTHING to do with "when the troubles with travel
> equipment ended". There still is the 1:2 difference in voltage between
> parts of the world. What changed is the typical design of equipment
> that made it possible to work on 100-240V without user intervention.
> That has nothing to do with the above standards, it is just equipment
> design and advances in technology that allowed it.

You're preaching to the choir where I was commending nospam for getting the
information correct, while I was chastising the moron Joerg Lorenz for just
guessing.

What these morons do is they take a _single_ bit of data, which, in the
moron Joerg Lorenz' case was something that he noticed 20 years ago
(apparently), and then these morons formulate a strongly held (purely
imaginary) belief system based on that one single (incomplete) datapoint.

What makes these people morons is that they can't handle the fact that a
belief system needs to be based on multiple valid and correct facts.
--
The problem I find with people who hold strong belief systems based on
small datasets is that they don't even realize how stupid they really are.

nospam wrote:

> devices with motors, in particular, synchronous motors, whose speed is
> a function of line frequency, will have problems, sometimes serious.
> the speed will be different and it can overheat, possibly burn out.

It deserves to be stated that nospam is actually correct in what he has
been stating, and that Joerg Lorenz is a moron who is wasting our time.

While the morons are just guessing, what nospam said is correct in the
main, which, surprisingly, shows that he knows what he's talking about.

Fleshing out what nospam correctly succinctly summarized,
*What happens if you connect a 60 Hertz motor to a 50 Hertz mains*
<https://electricaloutlet.org/frequency>
The motor turns 17% slower
The internal current goes up by 17%
The power (watt) goes down with 17 %
The mechanical cooling is less, because of 17% less turns

As nospam correctly alluded to, problems arise the other way also.
*THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN OPERATING 50 Hz EQUIPMENT AT 60 Hz?*
<https://powerofengineers.wordpress.com/2020/08/23/why-50hz-and-60hz/>
"A 50 Hz motor operating on 60 Hz will attempt to rotate at a 20%
increase in speed. The load will become 1.23 (1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2)
or 1.73 times greater (173%) than on the original frequency.
Redesigning a motor for that much of a horsepower increase
is not possible."
In summary, I deplore the negative value that the morons like Joerg Lorenz
imparted to this thread, while I commend the positive value from nospam.
--
I am fair to everyone because my response is based on what value they add.

In message <sLl*j7nPy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> > LOL, you think like me! <https://i.imgur.com/5Gf39Gg.jpg> is what I
> > fabricated for the UK and to use on airplanes where the UK socket pins
> > tend to not be worn out so the plug stays in.
>
> What's going on about the assymmetric hot/neutral pins? One seems to have
> a larger slot than the other.

I'm not sure they really are different sizes. Looking carefully, the
holes on the right appear to have a tapered entry, with the inner end
of the taper the same size as the non-tapered holes on the left.

I still can't see any benefit from having differently contoured holes.

David

David Higton wrote:

>> What's going on about the assymmetric hot/neutral pins? One seems to have
>> a larger slot than the other.
>
> I'm not sure they really are different sizes. Looking carefully, the
> holes on the right appear to have a tapered entry, with the inner end
> of the taper the same size as the non-tapered holes on the left.
>
> I still can't see any benefit from having differently contoured holes.

I haven't been faithfully following the tangents, but on the topic of
"differently contoured holes" for electrical outlets, there is definitely a
benefit, as seen from the typical unidirectional 3-pronged 120VAC US setup.
*Standard US Outlet Types*
<https://portablepowerguides.com/us-outlet-types/>

Notice in the first image the ground is a completely different shape and
location and that the hot and neutral terminals are of different widths.

Even without the ground pin, you can only plug them in one way into a
proper outlet since the neutral side is larger (wider) than the hot side.

I don't know how much "Theo" knows about electrical engineering, but I will
emphatically state the hot wire is very different from the neutral wire
just as a ground is very different from a neutral wire and from a hot wire.

That's a simple answer to Theo's query about why they're different sizes.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

Rob wrote:

>> Whether or not something works at 120/230VAC or 50/60Hz has nothing to do
>> with how old it is nor what it does (within reason) but how it's designed.
>
> Sure, but "how it is designed" depends a LOT on "how old it is"!

Yes. But that's just a stupid way to look at it if that's _all_ you're
looking at, which is what Joerg Lorenz was doing.

Looking at only one datapoint is the classic mark of a moron, which, to be
clear, is what Joerg Lorenz is since that's what he does all the time.

You don't know it but the first time I ran into Joerg was when he claimed,
years ago, emphatically so, that anything from the BBC was wrong and that
the only news that had it right was German news (even as he's Swiss
apparently). Go figure.

Anyway, the fact that it's old is the _wrong_ way to look at it.

If you see my other posts on the subject, the way to look at it is to look
at the specifications and the basics of electrical engineering involved.

> In the old days, stuff had an iron-core transformer with a primary
> winding specified for the mains voltage. To have 110/220 operation
> you need to have two primary windings in series/parallel operation
> using a switch.
> But nowadays, switchmode powersupplies with wide 100-240 operating
> range are used instead, without requiring a switch. They did not
> exist 30 years ago, and back then when you had a switchmode powersupply
> it was either limited to like 100-130 or 220-240, or it had a switch
> to select between those two.
>
> Resistive equipment like a heater requires similar switching, even now.

All I'm saying is if the _only_ criterion you're looking at is the age of
the equipment, you'll not be forming a belief system based on the facts.

The age of the equipment is simply a determinant of the design, where the
_design_ of the equipment is what we should be looking at (IMHO).

No big deal. I wasn't accusing you of being a moron; I was simply pointing
out that people like Joerg Lorenz are the morons.

They take a _single_ datum, and then they form their entire strongly held
belief system around that single datum.

Why?
I don't know why.

I suspect that complexity is beyond their cognitive grasp.

I see the same moronic idiocy whenever someone says "you get what you pay
for", which is just about the dumbest assessment system on this planet.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 28 May 2022 16:25:09 -0700, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>On 5/28/2022 12:31 PM, John Levine wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> If they want a phone like a Jitterbug, I think they're out of luck. Those phones only
>> work on a single carrier inside the U.S.
>
>The Smart 3 supports only bands 2, 4, 5, 12. If unlocked it would work
>on AT&T, T-Mobile, and Verizon, but Jitterbug uses Verizon. It would not
>work in most other countries.
>
>"Thank you for your interest in our GreatCall products. All Jitterbug
>cell phones are unlocked per nationwide standards."
>
>It would be a mistake to buy a smart phone from Jitterbug.
>
I wrote him what you said.

In comp.mobile.android, on 29 May 2022 14:54:46 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> LOL, you think like me! <https://i.imgur.com/5Gf39Gg.jpg> is what I
>> fabricated for the UK and to use on airplanes where the UK socket pins
>> tend to not be worn out so the plug stays in.
>
>What's going on about the assymmetric hot/neutral pins? One seems to have a
>larger slot than the other. Does one move to accommodate different spacing
>of pins? But I can't think of another country that has flat parallel pins

All of Latin America? IOW, the whole western hemisphere.

>(Europlug are round, China has them angled, UK are too square)

But I don't know why polarlized plugs are used on somethign that has no
metal parts showing, like the power supply cord/power brick for my Acer
laptop.

>Theo

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on 29 May 2022 14:54:46 +0100 (BST), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> LOL, you think like me! <https://i.imgur.com/5Gf39Gg.jpg> is what I
>>> fabricated for the UK and to use on airplanes where the UK socket pins
>>> tend to not be worn out so the plug stays in.
>>
>>What's going on about the assymmetric hot/neutral pins? One seems to have a
>>larger slot than the other. Does one move to accommodate different spacing
>>of pins? But I can't think of another country that has flat parallel pins
>
> All of Latin America? IOW, the whole western hemisphere.
>
>>(Europlug are round, China has them angled, UK are too square)
>
> But I don't know why polarlized plugs are used on somethign that has no
> metal parts showing, like the power supply cord/power brick for my Acer
> laptop.

It apparently is part of some tradition. In continental Europe we
do not have polarized plugs at all, and never had. We just live with
the fact that you never know which side is hot and which is neutral,
and all pluggable devices used here are constructed in such a way that
they operate safely no matter which way they are plugged in.

Ironically, in the USA this whole thing was an afterthought that was
introduced only AFTER a certain type of device had already left the
scene: the transformerless 5-tube radio where the chassis was directly
connected to one of the mains leads, so it had to be kept in an
insulated (bakelite) housing. These devices were kind of dangerous
when the owner would modify or damage them, e.g. to connect an external
loudspeaker or antenna, or when a volume knob broke off.

However, those were all fitted with symmetrical plugs that you could
plug in either way. Just like here in Europe.

And when I first encountered American (and Japanese) powerplugs, I found
them rather dangerous. They can be pulled partly from the receptacle
and the pins can be touched by tiny fingers or at least by something
like a knife. European plugs do not have that problem.
(certainly not the current ones; 60 years ago there were some plugs
in use where it could happen)

On 5/29/2022 11:53 PM, micky wrote:

<snip>

> But I don't know why polarlized plugs are used on somethign that has no
> metal parts showing, like the power supply cord/power brick for my Acer
> laptop.

I have an old charger for a Canon camera (can charge the battery inside
the camera). For some reason they used a polarized NEMA 1-15P to IEC320
C7 cord. The original cord disintegrated so I ordered this one
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DQ6QDNC>. They shipped the non-polarized
version which I returned (I should have read the reviews before ordering
since others had the same issue).

It's not that common of a cord. I ordered one on Aliexpress
<https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256801219269682.html>; hopefully it'll
be the right one.

On 5/30/2022 1:28 AM, Rob wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> In comp.mobile.android, on 29 May 2022 14:54:46 +0100 (BST), Theo
>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> LOL, you think like me! <https://i.imgur.com/5Gf39Gg.jpg> is what I
>>>> fabricated for the UK and to use on airplanes where the UK socket pins
>>>> tend to not be worn out so the plug stays in.
>>>
>>> What's going on about the assymmetric hot/neutral pins? One seems to have a
>>> larger slot than the other. Does one move to accommodate different spacing
>>> of pins? But I can't think of another country that has flat parallel pins
>>
>> All of Latin America? IOW, the whole western hemisphere.
>>
>>> (Europlug are round, China has them angled, UK are too square)
>>
>> But I don't know why polarlized plugs are used on somethign that has no
>> metal parts showing, like the power supply cord/power brick for my Acer
>> laptop.
>
> It apparently is part of some tradition. In continental Europe we
> do not have polarized plugs at all, and never had. We just live with
> the fact that you never know which side is hot and which is neutral,
> and all pluggable devices used here are constructed in such a way that
> they operate safely no matter which way they are plugged in.
>
> Ironically, in the USA this whole thing was an afterthought that was
> introduced only AFTER a certain type of device had already left the
> scene: the transformerless 5-tube radio where the chassis was directly
> connected to one of the mains leads, so it had to be kept in an
> insulated (bakelite) housing. These devices were kind of dangerous
> when the owner would modify or damage them, e.g. to connect an external
> loudspeaker or antenna, or when a volume knob broke off.
>
> However, those were all fitted with symmetrical plugs that you could
> plug in either way. Just like here in Europe.
>
> And when I first encountered American (and Japanese) powerplugs, I found
> them rather dangerous. They can be pulled partly from the receptacle
> and the pins can be touched by tiny fingers or at least by something
> like a knife. European plugs do not have that problem.
> (certainly not the current ones; 60 years ago there were some plugs
> in use where it could happen)

I think that part of the issue in 110V/120V countries is that because
devices use more current than the same wattage device designed for
220V/240V, there was a need for a plug design with as much surface area
as possible. You get a lot more current carrying capacity with a thin
flat blade than with a round prong, for the same amount of metal (unless
the round pins are hollow) Remember that the electricity flows only on
the surface of a conductor.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> I think that part of the issue in 110V/120V countries is that because
> devices use more current than the same wattage device designed for
> 220V/240V, there was a need for a plug design with as much surface area
> as possible. You get a lot more current carrying capacity with a thin
> flat blade than with a round prong, for the same amount of metal (unless
> the round pins are hollow) Remember that the electricity flows only on
> the surface of a conductor.

There is some discussion about the design of American plugs being
more sound, but on the other hand the typical Amercan plug/socket are
so flimsy that this probably does not hold up in a direct 1:1 comparison
of American style and European style plugs.