On 2022-06-23 10:31, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2022-06-23 13:01, Alan wrote:
>
>>>> What's so wrong with Apple Mail?
>>>
>>> Other "paid" mail clients are far better at search,
>>> sorting/classifying, setting rules, etc. and so on.
>>
>> Smart mailboxes and rules work great in Apple Mail.
>
> Not really - compared to other clients.

Give an example.

>
>>
>> Give a concrete example.
>
> No time for that crap but there are various clients that do these things
> better and with less fuss to set up.

Such as?

>
>>>
>>> Mac Mail is buggy, thought some of the worst bugs like IMAP settings
>>> disappearing have been fixed.
>>
>> "Buggy"? Not that I've noticed.
>
> Try harder.  One example is: I'm in an inbox for my ISP.  Switch to
> another inbox.  List of e-mails sits empty for 10 - 20 seconds...

Sorry, but I have 5 active inboxes and there is no delay with any of them.

>
> (To be clear: I'm talking about the Mac Apple e-mail client - I don't
> use the iOS one so much that I've noticed any bugs there).
>
>>>
>>> (Apple Mail for iOS is a bit bizarre when setting up a GMail account
>>> - a bit of unexpected hoop jumping via Safari due (I believe) to the
>>> security model).
>>
>> OK.
>
> And actually it's the same hoop jumping on the Mac - but is easier
> because of the larger screen and various visible windows open.

It's what Google has mandated.

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > Let me see what we've got here!? User hates Google, but wants to use a
> > Gmail account in an email app, never mind that he wants to use it on an
> > Android device!
> >
> > What's wrong with this picture!?
>
> Frank,
>
> You just _whooshed_ on what the problem set truly is, as far as I can tell.

Talking about whooshing! You apparently did not even realize the
'inconsistency' in your 'needs'. As soon as you resolve that
inconsistency, there *is no* "problem set".

Roger Mills <mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/06/2022 15:54, Andy Burnelli wrote:

[About Thunderbird on Android:]

> > The reason I pine for something like this is simply that Thunderbird
> > handles OAuth2 which Google requires if you're not excited about 2FA/2SV.
> >
> > I'd be happy if K-9 Mail had OAuth2 as I am being forced to switch _off_
> > of K9 because (as far as I know) it doesn't currently support OAuth2
> > which is the only thing left after June 30th for me (given I'm not using
> > 2FA/2SV).
>
> I've got a few gmail accounts - which I don't use very much, and very
> rarely *send* emails from them. But I *receive* quite a lot of emails
> addressed to them. My solution is to automatically forward the incoming
> emails to a non-gmail account, and then delete the originals. That way,
> I never need to access the gmail accounts directly, but can receive the
> emails in K-9.

Can you please stop being sensible!? We can't have that in this/these
group(s), can we!?

Frank Slootweg wrote:

>>> Let me see what we've got here!? User hates Google, but wants to use a
>>> Gmail account in an email app, never mind that he wants to use it on an
>>> Android device!
>>>
>>> What's wrong with this picture!?
>>
>> Frank,
>>
>> You just _whooshed_ on what the problem set truly is, as far as I can tell.
>
> Talking about whooshing! You apparently did not even realize the
> 'inconsistency' in your 'needs'. As soon as you resolve that
> inconsistency, there *is no* "problem set".

Thanks for catching that inconsistency.

You're talking sensibly Frank, and that's good.
Because not every decision that is made is going to be black & white.

There's nuance involved.

Hence I completely get it that you (rightly so) consider it "inconsistent"
for me to "hate Google" and then for me to "use Google for email".

That's a perfectly sensible position for you to take.

Worse, what you don't likely know is that I _also_ use Google for "Google
Voice" (on the iPad, but not on Android for reasons shown below)...yet,

Which more appropriately means I have a love/hate relationship with Google.

What I do, which is sensible to me but maybe not to you, is use the _best_
program out there for the job that I need done. On the most private
platform for that job.

For example, I can get my Google Mail using the GMail app on the iPad and
it does _not_ create a mothership account, nor does Google Voice on iOS.

In fact, I also sometimes resort to Google Maps when I'm in an area where I
must get there on time without mistakes, as OSMAnd~ works fine on Android,
but never is any nav app as good as Google Maps on Android.

On iOS, the Apple Maps program is catching up, but it's not there yet.

Notice that's multiple apps I use that are from Google.
I use them because there's nothing better (AFAIK).

But I don't want any mothership tracking account on my devices, which is
why I refuse to use the GMail and Google Voice apps on Android (and I never
log into the Google Maps app either).

It's a delicate balance.
Most people, I guess, can't handle the complexity.

But I can.
You can too I'm sure, if you had wanted to.

In summary, I'm happy you see the inconsistency in my approach, which is
sort of a "diplomatic" approach in terms of using Google for what there is
no other program for, and then _not_ using Google for everything else.

Thanks for catching that inconsistency.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

On 2022-06-23 13:44, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-23 10:31, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2022-06-23 13:01, Alan wrote:
>>
>>>>> What's so wrong with Apple Mail?
>>>>
>>>> Other "paid" mail clients are far better at search,
>>>> sorting/classifying, setting rules, etc. and so on.
>>>
>>> Smart mailboxes and rules work great in Apple Mail.
>>
>> Not really - compared to other clients.
>
> Give an example. >
>>
>>>
>>> Give a concrete example.
>>
>> No time for that crap but there are various clients that do these
>> things better and with less fuss to set up.
>
> Such as?

Look 'em up. I don't have time to. Looked at several and tried several
many, many years ago. Better? Sure. Worth the price? Not to me.

>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Mac Mail is buggy, thought some of the worst bugs like IMAP settings
>>>> disappearing have been fixed.
>>>
>>> "Buggy"? Not that I've noticed.
>>
>> Try harder.  One example is: I'm in an inbox for my ISP.  Switch to
>> another inbox.  List of e-mails sits empty for 10 - 20 seconds...
>
> Sorry, but I have 5 active inboxes and there is no delay with any of them.

Hooray for you. This happens from time to time.

>
>>
>> (To be clear: I'm talking about the Mac Apple e-mail client - I don't
>> use the iOS one so much that I've noticed any bugs there).
>>
>>>>
>>>> (Apple Mail for iOS is a bit bizarre when setting up a GMail account
>>>> - a bit of unexpected hoop jumping via Safari due (I believe) to the
>>>> security model).
>>>
>>> OK.
>>
>> And actually it's the same hoop jumping on the Mac - but is easier
>> because of the larger screen and various visible windows open.
>
> It's what Google has mandated.

Could be. Haven't had to mess with it in a while, so I don't care
either way.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 2022-06-23 12:51, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2022-06-23 13:44, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-23 10:31, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-23 13:01, Alan wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> What's so wrong with Apple Mail?
>>>>>
>>>>> Other "paid" mail clients are far better at search,
>>>>> sorting/classifying, setting rules, etc. and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Smart mailboxes and rules work great in Apple Mail.
>>>
>>> Not really - compared to other clients.
>>
>> Give an example. >
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Give a concrete example.
>>>
>>> No time for that crap but there are various clients that do these
>>> things better and with less fuss to set up.
>>
>> Such as?
>
> Look 'em up.  I don't have time to.  Looked at several and tried several
> many, many years ago.  Better? Sure.  Worth the price?  Not to me.

So you really have nothing.

If you actually knew of a single tangible problem you'd encountered, you
could have written it more quickly.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mac Mail is buggy, thought some of the worst bugs like IMAP
>>>>> settings disappearing have been fixed.
>>>>
>>>> "Buggy"? Not that I've noticed.
>>>
>>> Try harder.  One example is: I'm in an inbox for my ISP.  Switch to
>>> another inbox.  List of e-mails sits empty for 10 - 20 seconds...
>>
>> Sorry, but I have 5 active inboxes and there is no delay with any of
>> them.
>
> Hooray for you.  This happens from time to time.

And every program on every platform has problems "from time to time".

>
>>
>>>
>>> (To be clear: I'm talking about the Mac Apple e-mail client - I don't
>>> use the iOS one so much that I've noticed any bugs there).
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (Apple Mail for iOS is a bit bizarre when setting up a GMail
>>>>> account - a bit of unexpected hoop jumping via Safari due (I
>>>>> believe) to the security model).
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>
>>> And actually it's the same hoop jumping on the Mac - but is easier
>>> because of the larger screen and various visible windows open.
>>
>> It's what Google has mandated.
>
> Could be.  Haven't had to mess with it in a while, so I don't care
> either way.

It is. Not "could be".

Am 22.06.22 um 19:37 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t8vgg4$d1j$1@dont-email.me>, badgolferman
> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> It would be nice if Thunderbird and its ability to work as a newsgroup
>> client was on iOS
>
> no it wouldn't.

What others think is nice is beyond your judgement you anonymous Troll.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 22.06.22 um 19:37 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t8vgof$h7a$1@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Why isn1t Thunderbird on iOS?
>>>>>
>>>>> because the developers chose not to.
>>>>
>>>> False. Apple left them no options and dictated the technology.
>>>
>>> apple did no such thing.
>>
>> They do all the time.
>
> they do not.
>
>> It is highest time the EU declares the walled
>> garden around iOS illegal practice. Will happen probably soon.
>
> you've obviously never written any ios apps nor do you understand
> anything about app development.

That is not the issue. You are one track minded. There are far more
important values in a free society than little bit of app development.

Open Source should be legally required by public bodies whenever a
solution exists.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 23.06.22 um 02:14 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t90al9$1s2d$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
> <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> The short answer is that the Thunderbird developers know all about iOS
>
> no they don't. they don't even know all about the platforms they claim
> to support. thunderbird is one of the buggiest apps on any platform.
> it's not even standards compliant.

Du bist ein Riesenschwätzer.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 22.06.22 um 00:11 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t8teea$k9p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
> <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> It's worse on iOS since you can't _not_ have a mothership account on iOS.
>
> false, and you've been told this before.

Right, but both OS are unusable without it.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> For example, I can get my Google Mail using the GMail app on the iPad and
> it does _not_ create a mothership account, nor does Google Voice on iOS.

So couldn't you use GV to receive the 2SV activation code, thereby allowing
creation of an app password for K9?

In article <t93p98$a2b$2@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> >> It is highest time the EU declares the walled
> >> garden around iOS illegal practice. Will happen probably soon.
> >
> > you've obviously never written any ios apps nor do you understand
> > anything about app development.
>
> That is not the issue. You are one track minded. There are far more
> important values in a free society than little bit of app development.

then how about the eu focus on those instead of mandating what private
companies should do with their products.

> Open Source should be legally required by public bodies whenever a
> solution exists.

you definitely don't understand anything about app development (or much
else). such a requirement would completely destroy the industry.

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> >>> Let me see what we've got here!? User hates Google, but wants to use a
> >>> Gmail account in an email app, never mind that he wants to use it on an
> >>> Android device!
> >>>
> >>> What's wrong with this picture!?
> >>
> >> Frank,
> >>
> >> You just _whooshed_ on what the problem set truly is, as far as I can tell.
> >
> > Talking about whooshing! You apparently did not even realize the
> > 'inconsistency' in your 'needs'. As soon as you resolve that
> > inconsistency, there *is no* "problem set".
>
> Thanks for catching that inconsistency.
>
> You're talking sensibly Frank, and that's good.
> Because not every decision that is made is going to be black & white.
>
> There's nuance involved.
>
> Hence I completely get it that you (rightly so) consider it "inconsistent"
> for me to "hate Google" and then for me to "use Google for email".
>
> That's a perfectly sensible position for you to take.

[Nuances deleted.]

Thanks for that!

> Notice that's multiple apps I use that are from Google.
> I use them because there's nothing better (AFAIK).

To be precise, multiple apps and services.

> But I don't want any mothership tracking account on my devices, which is
> why I refuse to use the GMail and Google Voice apps on Android (and I never
> log into the Google Maps app either).

As has been mentioned before, you can solve all of your Gmail
problems/concerns - on all platforms - by using (Google) App Passwords
(instead of OAuth2) and use (Google) 'Backup codes' - or one of the
other non-phonenumber options - to be able to use (Google) 2-Step
Verification (required for App Passwords), without having to provide a
phonenumber.

As setting up App Passwords is a one time thing, Backup codes are
probably the easiest option (for 2SV).

An TOTP (Time-based One-Time Password) app/program is more universal
(than Backup codes), but not needed for a one time operation.

Also note that - as the below document also explains - you have to
perform 2SV only once for each device, if you check the "Don't ask again
on this computer" box. So if you use only one device to set things up,
you have to only perform 2SV once and never again.

I repeat from an earlier post:

[Message-ID: <t8taup.bm0.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>:]

'Turn on 2-Step Verification'
<https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185839>
"...
Use other verification methods
...
Use backup codes

You can print or download a set of 8-digit backup codes to keep in a
safe place. Backup codes are helpful if you lose your phone."

> It's a delicate balance.
> Most people, I guess, can't handle the complexity.
>
> But I can.
> You can too I'm sure, if you had wanted to.

As you can see from the above, I not only *can*, but actually *do*! :-)

> In summary, I'm happy you see the inconsistency in my approach, which is
> sort of a "diplomatic" approach in terms of using Google for what there is
> no other program for, and then _not_ using Google for everything else.
>
> Thanks for catching that inconsistency.

You're welcome.

On 2022-06-23 15:58, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-23 12:51, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2022-06-23 13:44, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-23 10:31, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-23 13:01, Alan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> What's so wrong with Apple Mail?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other "paid" mail clients are far better at search,
>>>>>> sorting/classifying, setting rules, etc. and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Smart mailboxes and rules work great in Apple Mail.
>>>>
>>>> Not really - compared to other clients.
>>>
>>> Give an example. >
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Give a concrete example.
>>>>
>>>> No time for that crap but there are various clients that do these
>>>> things better and with less fuss to set up.
>>>
>>> Such as?
>>
>> Look 'em up.  I don't have time to.  Looked at several and tried
>> several many, many years ago.  Better? Sure.  Worth the price?  Not to
>> me.
>
> So you really have nothing.
>
> If you actually knew of a single tangible problem you'd encountered, you
> could have written it more quickly.

You're not my boss. It's been so long since I used these alternates (to
try) that I've forgotten their names.

But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that they
are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mac Mail is buggy, thought some of the worst bugs like IMAP
>>>>>> settings disappearing have been fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Buggy"? Not that I've noticed.
>>>>
>>>> Try harder.  One example is: I'm in an inbox for my ISP.  Switch to
>>>> another inbox.  List of e-mails sits empty for 10 - 20 seconds...
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I have 5 active inboxes and there is no delay with any of
>>> them.
>>
>> Hooray for you.  This happens from time to time.
>
> And every program on every platform has problems "from time to time".

No shit. But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly regular. I
guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't post
what it "already has" while doing so.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 2022-06-24 03:31, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 22.06.22 um 19:37 schrieb nospam:
>> In article <t8vgof$h7a$1@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
>> wrote:

>>> It is highest time the EU declares the walled
>>> garden around iOS illegal practice. Will happen probably soon.
>>
>> you've obviously never written any ios apps nor do you understand
>> anything about app development.
>
> That is not the issue. You are one track minded. There are far more
> important values in a free society than little bit of app development.
>
> Open Source should be legally required by public bodies whenever a
> solution exists.

Bollocks. The profit motive is what causes innovation and rewards the
most clever.

There is nothing wrong with open source, but there is no way, no how,
that a government of a free nation can compel a company to be open
source with its products.

(And by the way, Apple publishes tons of open source s/w).

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2022-06-23 15:58, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-23 12:51, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-23 13:44, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-23 10:31, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-06-23 13:01, Alan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's so wrong with Apple Mail?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other "paid" mail clients are far better at search,
>>>>>>> sorting/classifying, setting rules, etc. and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Smart mailboxes and rules work great in Apple Mail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not really - compared to other clients.
>>>>
>>>> Give an example. >
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Give a concrete example.
>>>>>
>>>>> No time for that crap but there are various clients that do these
>>>>> things better and with less fuss to set up.
>>>>
>>>> Such as?
>>>
>>> Look 'em up.  I don't have time to.  Looked at several and tried
>>> several many, many years ago.  Better? Sure.  Worth the price?  Not
>>> to me.
>>
>> So you really have nothing.
>>
>> If you actually knew of a single tangible problem you'd encountered,
>> you could have written it more quickly.
>
> You're not my boss.  It's been so long since I used these alternates (to
> try) that I've forgotten their names.

Of course I'm not your boss...

....but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.

>
> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that they
> are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.

So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
deficiencies are...

....but you're utterly sure they exist.

Got it.

>>>>>>> Mac Mail is buggy, thought some of the worst bugs like IMAP
>>>>>>> settings disappearing have been fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Buggy"? Not that I've noticed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try harder.  One example is: I'm in an inbox for my ISP.  Switch to
>>>>> another inbox.  List of e-mails sits empty for 10 - 20 seconds...
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I have 5 active inboxes and there is no delay with any of
>>>> them.
>>>
>>> Hooray for you.  This happens from time to time.
>>
>> And every program on every platform has problems "from time to time".
>
> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly regular.  I
> guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't post
> what it "already has" while doing so.

It does display what it already has.

I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
happened to me... ...once".

On 2022-06-24 14:08, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wro
> Of course I'm not your boss...
>
> ...but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.

Fill yer boots and knock yourself out.

>
>>
>> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that
>> they are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.
>
> So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
> deficiencies are...
>
> ...but you're utterly sure they exist.
>
> Got it.

I noted another one in a reply in this thread a couple days ago as well.

>> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly regular.
>> I guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't
>> post what it "already has" while doing so.
>
> It does display what it already has.
>
> I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
> happened to me... ...once".

Several times per week, actually.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 2022-06-24 11:22, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2022-06-24 14:08, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wro
>> Of course I'm not your boss...
>>
>> ...but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.
>
> Fill yer boots and knock yourself out.
>
>>
>>>
>>> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that
>>> they are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.
>>
>> So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
>> deficiencies are...
>>
>> ...but you're utterly sure they exist.
>>
>> Got it.
>
> I noted another one in a reply in this thread a couple days ago as well.

Really? What was it?

>
>>> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly regular.
>>> I guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't
>>> post what it "already has" while doing so.
>>
>> It does display what it already has.
>>
>> I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
>> happened to me... ...once".
>
> Several times per week, actually.

Then you have a problem with YOUR system.

Because I guarantee you that in my role as an IT support consultant to
small-medium businesses and individuals, I have never seen this alleged
behaviour so much as once.

Take a video of it.

nospam wrote:

>> That is not the issue. You are one track minded. There are far more
>> important values in a free society than little bit of app development.
>
> then how about the eu focus on those instead of mandating what private
> companies should do with their products.

While I can't speak for the EU, only a moron wouldn't know exactly _why_
Apple uses proprietary standards and why Apple removes basic functionality.

The EU isn't stupid.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

nospam wrote:

>> It is highest time the EU declares the walled
>> garden around iOS illegal practice. Will happen probably soon.
>
> you've obviously never written any ios apps nor do you understand
> anything about app development.

Apple is brilliant at locking clueless people into the walled garden.

On 2022-06-24 14:28, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-24 11:22, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2022-06-24 14:08, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wro
>>> Of course I'm not your boss...
>>>
>>> ...but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.
>>
>> Fill yer boots and knock yourself out.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that
>>>> they are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.
>>>
>>> So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
>>> deficiencies are...
>>>
>>> ...but you're utterly sure they exist.
>>>
>>> Got it.
>>
>> I noted another one in a reply in this thread a couple days ago as well.
>
> Really? What was it?

Seek, etc.

>
>>
>>>> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly
>>>> regular. I guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean it
>>>> shouldn't post what it "already has" while doing so.
>>>
>>> It does display what it already has.
>>>
>>> I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
>>> happened to me... ...once".
>>
>> Several times per week, actually.
>
> Then you have a problem with YOUR system.
>
> Because I guarantee you that in my role as an IT support consultant to
> small-medium businesses and individuals, I have never seen this alleged
> behaviour so much as once.
>
> Take a video of it.

I might. But I've really no obligation to prove it to you.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 2022-06-24 13:36, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2022-06-24 14:28, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-24 11:22, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-24 14:08, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wro
>>>> Of course I'm not your boss...
>>>>
>>>> ...but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.
>>>
>>> Fill yer boots and knock yourself out.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that
>>>>> they are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.
>>>>
>>>> So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
>>>> deficiencies are...
>>>>
>>>> ...but you're utterly sure they exist.
>>>>
>>>> Got it.
>>>
>>> I noted another one in a reply in this thread a couple days ago as well.
>>
>> Really? What was it?
>
> Seek, etc.

Says the guy who would rather avoid writing about what he claims he
wrote just "a couple days ago"...

>
>>
>>>
>>>>> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly
>>>>> regular. I guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean
>>>>> it shouldn't post what it "already has" while doing so.
>>>>
>>>> It does display what it already has.
>>>>
>>>> I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
>>>> happened to me... ...once".
>>>
>>> Several times per week, actually.
>>
>> Then you have a problem with YOUR system.
>>
>> Because I guarantee you that in my role as an IT support consultant to
>> small-medium businesses and individuals, I have never seen this
>> alleged behaviour so much as once.
>>
>> Take a video of it.
>
> I might.  But I've really no obligation to prove it to you.

You certainly do not...

....and I'm certain you're going to stand by that.

On 2022-06-24 12:23, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> That is not the issue. You are one track minded. There are far more
>>> important values in a free society than little bit of app development.
>>
>> then how about the eu focus on those instead of mandating what private
>> companies should do with their products.
>
> While I can't speak for the EU, only a moron wouldn't know exactly _why_
> Apple uses proprietary standards and why Apple removes basic functionality.

And only a dishonest asshole wouldn't stand up and state clearly what he
thinks those reasons are.

>
> The EU isn't stupid.

On 2022-06-24 17:14, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-24 13:36, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2022-06-24 14:28, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-24 11:22, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-24 14:08, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wro
>>>>> Of course I'm not your boss...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.
>>>>
>>>> Fill yer boots and knock yourself out.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered that
>>>>>> they are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
>>>>> deficiencies are...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but you're utterly sure they exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Got it.
>>>>
>>>> I noted another one in a reply in this thread a couple days ago as
>>>> well.
>>>
>>> Really? What was it?
>>
>> Seek, etc.
>
> Says the guy who would rather avoid writing about what he claims he
> wrote just "a couple days ago"...

Right - so you should have little problem finding it.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly
>>>>>> regular. I guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean
>>>>>> it shouldn't post what it "already has" while doing so.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does display what it already has.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
>>>>> happened to me... ...once".
>>>>
>>>> Several times per week, actually.
>>>
>>> Then you have a problem with YOUR system.
>>>
>>> Because I guarantee you that in my role as an IT support consultant
>>> to small-medium businesses and individuals, I have never seen this
>>> alleged behaviour so much as once.
>>>
>>> Take a video of it.
>>
>> I might.  But I've really no obligation to prove it to you.
>
> You certainly do not...
>
> ...and I'm certain you're going to stand by that.

Getting more so. Things are:
1) What I wrote is true.
2) I have zero obligation to prove it to _you_.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

On 2022-06-24 14:22, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2022-06-24 17:14, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-24 13:36, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-24 14:28, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-24 11:22, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-06-24 14:08, Alan wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-06-24 09:25, Alan Browne wro
>>>>>> Of course I'm not your boss...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...but I'm certainly capable of commenting on your choices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fill yer boots and knock yourself out.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But do look them up, and you'll see from the features offered
>>>>>>> that they are far better than Apple Mail from that POV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you admit you can't remember what these alleged problems and
>>>>>> deficiencies are...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...but you're utterly sure they exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Got it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I noted another one in a reply in this thread a couple days ago as
>>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> Really? What was it?
>>>
>>> Seek, etc.
>>
>> Says the guy who would rather avoid writing about what he claims he
>> wrote just "a couple days ago"...
>
> Right - so you should have little problem finding it.

You'd have even less trouble...

....as you purport to have written it.

But it seems you'd rather continue telling me why I should find it,
rather than expend even less effort and just produce it.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No shit.  But the issue I describe with Apple Mail is fairly
>>>>>>> regular. I guess it's doing an IMAP update, but that doesn't mean
>>>>>>> it shouldn't post what it "already has" while doing so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does display what it already has.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm beginning to suspect that "from time to time" is actually "it
>>>>>> happened to me... ...once".
>>>>>
>>>>> Several times per week, actually.
>>>>
>>>> Then you have a problem with YOUR system.
>>>>
>>>> Because I guarantee you that in my role as an IT support consultant
>>>> to small-medium businesses and individuals, I have never seen this
>>>> alleged behaviour so much as once.
>>>>
>>>> Take a video of it.
>>>
>>> I might.  But I've really no obligation to prove it to you.
>>
>> You certainly do not...
>>
>> ...and I'm certain you're going to stand by that.
>
> Getting more so.  Things are:
> 1) What I wrote is true.

So you say, but won't prove.

> 2) I have zero obligation to prove it to _you_.

Of course you don't.

But you haven't... ...proved it.