On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
> > (my responses usually follow points raised):
> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
> > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
> > > > they
> > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
> > >
> > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
> >
> > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
> > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
> > something I actually want).
>
> Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all there.
> It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it, would
> you say no?

That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
insurance and whatnot. I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
problems, and too expensive upkeep. A this year’s version of my Toyota,
that I’d take.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:29:49, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)
><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
>>> I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
>>
>> Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
>> work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
>> something I actually want).
>
>Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all
>there. It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer
>version of it, would you say no?

If you offered me new sporty operating system (go faster, better
suspension, etc.) for my existing car, even if for free, I'd want to see
if it affected mileage, had some unexpected side effect (car has to be
left on tickover all the time, might cause unexpected hardware failures,
opens all the window unexpectedly ...)

[The windows thing is a real one: its happened thrice in the three or
four years I've owned my present car. Fortunately no-one stole
anything.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

so that the vendors can "serve you better". As if you were a tennis ball, I
guess. - Wolf K, in alt.windows7.general, 2014-7-21

On 1/31/2022 3:44 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

>
> What is 5600G?

It's like your 3900XT.

Your 3900XT is a Zen2 with no GPU.
And likely kicks the ass of my processor.

https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%209%203900XT.html

Mine is a Zen3 with a GPU inside. Saves power. It uses
a third of the power my Intel machine uses. By having a GPU
inside, I don't have to face buying a crap video card that
nobody wants :-) My computer store has stock of GT 1030
cards for example, with only two connectors on the front of them.

https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%205%205600G.html

Paul

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:52:26 -0000, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
> (in article <op.1gvn32zkmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 02:35:41 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > (in article <op.1gt7q7ovmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>> >
>> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 01:49:00 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > > > (in article <op.1gt5zbmtmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>> > > >
>> > > > > So, I only found this out from a pirate website, Microsoft don't bother
>> > > > > telling you.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Your computer will not get a Windows 11 upgrade unless you have enabled
>> > > > > TPM
>> > > > > (trusted platform module) in your computer's BIOS. Most computers have
>> > > > > this
>> > > > > switched off.
>> > > >
>> > > > you’re very late to the party.
>> > > >
>> > > > 1. MS _does_ tell people. The requirement for a TPM was clear from the
>> > > > first
>> > > > announcements. MS went so far as to set up a page on their site..
>> > > > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/windows-11-requirements
>> > > > and this page was the very first hit in a search for ‘hardware
>> > > > requirements
>> > > > win 11”. Note the date on the page: 30 Nov 2021. Oh. Wait.
>> > > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-system-requirements
>> > > > is
>> > > > the 3rd hit in that search. That page dates from August... The second hit
>> > > > also cites the requirement for a TPM, but is undated. All three of the
>> > > > first
>> > > > 3 hits are from MS. Did you actually do a search?
>> > >
>> > > Why would I do that?
>> >
>> > so that you could find out information about the OS prior to doing an
>> > update.
>>
>> Uh, I just press "install" when one appears. I don't research them.
>
> that’s a bad idea. In the past MS OS updates have broken hardware,
> including but not limited to printers, scanners, assorted USB devices
> including cell data network cards, 802.11 wireless cards, and Ethernet cards
> (you may be detecting a theme...) and video cards. And, in one memorable
> instance, sound cards. Just installing runs the risk of hardware not working.
> MS OS updates have also broken software, including software from Adobe,
> Quark, and even MS themselves. This especially applies to installers;
> notoriously MS Office 2003 worked on Win 8 and up, but its installer had
> problems.

I've owned about 20 machines, made about 100 machines, and been responsible for repair/upgrade/installation of about 5000 machines. Not once has any of the above happened. Perhaps it's something stupid you're doing?

BTW, hardware doesn't break with software.

>> > > I was waiting for it to appear in Windows Update. I have
>> > > 7 PCs. I've only seen it mentioned on the 2 oldest ones, which said "not
>> > > compatible" - not sure if that's the TPM or because they're old.
>> >
>> > probably part of the other hardware requirements, which you’d know about
>> > if
>> > you looked. Odds are that they have CPUs older than 8th gen. Machines with
>> > CPUs older than 8th gen won’t install Win 11... unless you pull a trick.
>> > All of my WinBoxes have CPUs which are too old. I could force the install,
>> > but I won’t be installing an OS onto unsupported hardware.
>>
>> No idea what "8th gen" refers to. I have a Ryzen 9 3900XT, an i5 8600K, and 5
>> very old things.
>
> 8th gen is the year that CPU was introduced. The i5 8600K is 8th gen, you can
> tell because its name starts with 8. A 8600K will probably be able to run Win
> 11, if the other hardware requirements (TPM 2, enough RAM, enough disk/SSD,
> good enough video) are met. AMD doesn’t make things quite as easy to tell;
> I think that a Ryzen 3900XT is 3rd gen, but Win 11 wants 4th gen so that one
> may not work.

I bought it one year ago brand new FFS. So M$ made an OS that needs an AMD newer than 1 year old?!

Oh wait, you're entirely wrong.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

>> > > > 2. It’s not the TPM that’s the problem; my main WinBox has a TPM, but
>> > > > won’t run Win 11 because it has TPM 1.2 and Win 11 requires TPM 2.0 or
>> > > > later. (Yes, I know, there’s a way around that requirement. I don’t
>> > > > feel
>> > > > like forcing installation of an OS, of all things, onto unsupported
>> > > > hardware.)
>> > >
>> > > Does the way around involve buying a TPM chip?
>> >
>> > that’s one way.
>>
>> Not spending money just to get 11.
>
> me either.

Neither.

>> > There’s also a way to play with the BIOS. And a way to
>> > edit the installer script so that it doesn’t look for TPM 2..0. And
>> > probably
>> > other methods. There are a _lot_ of idiots who absolutely, positively, MUST
>> > run Win 11 and will go to considerable lengths to get past any roadblocks MS
>> > puts in the way. Me, I say that my WinBoxes will stay with 10, or earlier,
>> > until they stop working. Unless I just reformat them and slap Ubuntu on
>> > them.
>>
>> I would like 11 as long as it doesn't fuck something up. If it's just a
>> matter of stopping it checking, and the OS will run ok with no TPM, then I'll
>> do that.
>
> it’ll install. it’s not supported, so it might not get updates, and it
> might stop working for any reason or no reason at all, with or without
> warning. And if you complain to MS, they’ll point out that you installed on
> unsupported hardware.
>
> I’m not going to install an OS onto unsupported hardware.

No updates wouldn't bother me. Stopping working would. But if all I've bypassed is security, that shouldn't stop it working surely?

>> In fact the older machines only run one program with no important data (it's
>> all held on servers), so I can break something without much headache.
>
> i’d be careful.

Why? They only have Windows, AVG, Boinc, and the last 6 hours of data crunched.

>> > > If not, let me know what I can
>> > > do. One of my PCs is old enough to use DDR2.
>> > >
>> > > > 3. Having the TPM turned on is very common in the corporate world. And
>> > > > with
>> > > > those who want to run BitLocker encryption. If you don’t have TPM 1.2 or
>> > > > later, running BitLocker becomes... annoying.
>> > >
>> > > But most people have home machines
>> >
>> > lots of gamers use systems which need TPMs.
>>
>> Games don't need TPM!
>
> the DRM for some of them does.

Not if you "buy" it in the right place.

>> > And there are a _lot_ of corp
>> > machines. An awful lot of ‘education’ systems have TPMs, as well. Odds
>> > are excellent that the majority of WinBoxes have TPMs on.
>>
>> Why would you get TPM for education?
>
> When you’re the network admin for a school with a few hundred or a few
> thousand machines, you want all the leverage you can get. Your typical urban
> high school will have hundreds of computers; your typical community college
> will have thousands. (Miami-Dade College is the largest higher-ed school in
> the US; prior to the pandemic it had over 174,000, that’s One Hundred and
> Seventy Four Thousand, students, and a Whole Lot of staff.) MS sells an
> Education edition of Windows; it’s basically Enterprise, slightly cheaper,
> for schools. And like Enterprise, it likes TPMs. Machines intended for the
> ‘education’ market are aimed at the same basic spec as machines aimed for
> the ‘corporate’ market; high-school and earlier being at the low end.

I worked in a school with 1100 pupils and 100 staff. There were about 400 computers. I never saw "education" on the Windows I installed, but I assume they used the cheapest. The council bought them (if I remembered to tell them I needed more licenses....), I just installed them. But that was back in 2011.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:56:00 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:30:43, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:18:52 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)
>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 19:50:55, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>>>> Christ, my computers aren't that old. And I would never even put
>>>> Windows 7 on 4GB machine. 4GB machines go in the bin. Using the
>>>> minimum requirement means you've got the disk swapping non-stop,
>>>> slowing the computer down by a factor of a billion, driving you crazy,
>>>> and wearing out the drive.
>>>
>>> I've been running 7-32 on this laptop with 3G for some years, without
>>> problems; it's only started hitting the limit in the last year or two,
>>> almost entirely due to huge/lazy/nosy scripts on webpages (running
>>> something that deactivates other than the current tab after a definable
>>> time mostly solves that).
>>
>> You'd have to use the PC very little to get away with that little
>> memory. I installed windows 7 on a machine with 4GB and before I'd
>> opened any programs it was swapping like crazy.
>
> It's my main computer; OK, I rarely process video, but I have two
> browsers open, each with some tens of tabs, a mail/news client, and I
> not infrequently process audio, and edit a 100-page document with
> pictures (not at the same time) - so, basically, horses for courses.
>
> I don't know if 7-32 is slightly less resource-hungry than 7-64.

It must be, I never touch 32 bit stuff.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:57:18 -0000, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
> (in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>> > (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
>> > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
>> > > >
>> > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
>> > > > they
>> > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
>> > >
>> > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
>> >
>> > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
>> > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
>> > something I actually want).
>>
>> Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all there.
>> It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it, would
>> you say no?
>
> That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
> example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
> insurance and whatnot. I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
> problems, and too expensive upkeep. A this year’s version of my Toyota,
> that I’d take.

But with the Windows 11 upgrade, it's like me giving you the next one up of the model you already have.

In fact the real title of Windows 11 is something like 10.0.2.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 22:03:08 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:29:49, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)
>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>>>> I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
>>>
>>> Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
>>> work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
>>> something I actually want).
>>
>> Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all
>> there. It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer
>> version of it, would you say no?
>
> If you offered me new sporty operating system (go faster, better
> suspension, etc.) for my existing car, even if for free, I'd want to see
> if it affected mileage, had some unexpected side effect (car has to be
> left on tickover all the time, might cause unexpected hardware failures,
> opens all the window unexpectedly ...)

Windows doesn't do stupid things like that.

> [The windows thing is a real one: its happened thrice in the three or
> four years I've owned my present car. Fortunately no-one stole
> anything.]

Mine locks all the doors with central locking, then the back left unlocks, which makes the others unlock again. Then the front left bounces and locks them all again. It's totally random what's locked at the end, but it's never all of them. Even worse, Renault decided to make doors lock when you're driving! WTF? Fed up of constant clanking, I managed to disable that stupid function.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 22:12:30 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/31/2022 3:44 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> What is 5600G?
>
> It's like your 3900XT.
>
> Your 3900XT is a Zen2 with no GPU.
> And likely kicks the ass of my processor.
>
> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%209%203900XT.html
>
> Mine is a Zen3 with a GPU inside. Saves power. It uses
> a third of the power my Intel machine uses. By having a GPU
> inside, I don't have to face buying a crap video card that
> nobody wants :-) My computer store has stock of GT 1030
> cards for example, with only two connectors on the front of them.
>
> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%205%205600G.html

I use as much power as I want, I'm not a greenie. I want stuff to go FAST!

By the way, yours is better at some things and mine is better at others:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-5-5600g/
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900xt/

I take it yours doesn't need the 6 inch cube cooler with twin 140 mm fans which barely gets inside my case? AMD recommends a water cooler but I couldn't be bothered as they're so unreliable.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 02:35:41 -0000, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
> (in article <op.1gt7q7ovmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 01:49:00 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > (in article <op.1gt5zbmtmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>> >
>> > > So, I only found this out from a pirate website, Microsoft don't bother
>> > > telling you.
>> > >
>> > > Your computer will not get a Windows 11 upgrade unless you have enabled TPM
>> > > (trusted platform module) in your computer's BIOS. Most computers have this
>> > > switched off.
>> >
>> > you’re very late to the party.
>> >
>> > 1. MS _does_ tell people. The requirement for a TPM was clear from the first
>> > announcements. MS went so far as to set up a page on their site.
>> > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/windows-11-requirements
>> > and this page was the very first hit in a search for ‘hardware
>> > requirements
>> > win 11”. Note the date on the page: 30 Nov 2021. Oh. Wait.
>> > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-system-requirements
>> > is
>> > the 3rd hit in that search. That page dates from August... The second hit
>> > also cites the requirement for a TPM, but is undated. All three of the first
>> > 3 hits are from MS. Did you actually do a search?
>>
>> Why would I do that?
>> I was waiting for it to appear in Windows Update. I have
>> 7 PCs. I've only seen it mentioned on the 2 oldest ones, which said "not
>> compatible" - not sure if that's the TPM or because they're old.
>
> probably part of the other hardware requirements, which you’d know about if
> you looked. Odds are that they have CPUs older than 8th gen. Machines with
> CPUs older than 8th gen won’t install Win 11... unless you pull a trick.
> All of my WinBoxes have CPUs which are too old. I could force the install,
> but I won’t be installing an OS onto unsupported hardware.

Microsoft supports this "hack":
https://windowsreport.com/install-windows-11-without-tpm/
So all my computers will be getting 11 on them tomorrow.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:57:18 -0500, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
>(in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>> > (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
>> > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
>> > > >
>> > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
>> > > > they
>> > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
>> > >
>> > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
>> >
>> > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
>> > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
>> > something I actually want).
>>
>> Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all there.
>> It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it, would
>> you say no?
>
>That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
>example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
>insurance and whatnot.

For me, "whatnot" includes being a contender for the world's ugliest
car.

>I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
>problems, and too expensive upkeep.

I all your driving is local (as mine is), there are no range problems.
I'd like a Tesla.

> A this year’s version of my Toyota,
>that I’d take.

Me too.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 23:42:23 -0000, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:57:18 -0500, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> (in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>>
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>> > (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
>>> > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
>>> > > > they
>>> > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
>>> > >
>>> > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
>>> >
>>> > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
>>> > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
>>> > something I actually want).
>>>
>>> Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all there.
>>> It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it, would
>>> you say no?
>>
>> That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
>> example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
>> insurance and whatnot.
>
> For me, "whatnot" includes being a contender for the world's ugliest
> car.

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/this-srx-is-rivaling-for-the-ugliest-cadillac-in-us-photo-gallery_5.jpg

Good ground clearance though.

>> I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
>> problems, and too expensive upkeep.
>
> I all your driving is local (as mine is), there are no range problems.
> I'd like a Tesla.

Hasn't Tesla got the second highest range?

>> A this year’s version of my Toyota,
>> that I’d take.
>
> Me too.

Anybody want my 20 year old Renault? One careful driver, one fucking lunatic.

On 1/31/2022 6:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> I take it yours doesn't need the 6 inch cube cooler with twin 140 mm fans which barely gets inside my case?  AMD recommends a water cooler but I couldn't be bothered as they're so unreliable.

The box came with a Wraith cooler.

I got the install order wrong, and had to take
the removable motherboard tray out of the case,
to fit the cooler and its screws. I had assumed I
could fit the cooler from the top, later on.

Paul

On 1/31/2022 4:56 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:30:43, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:18:52 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 19:50:55, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>>>> Christ, my computers aren't that old.  And I would never even put
>>>> Windows 7 on 4GB machine.  4GB machines go in the bin.  Using the
>>>> minimum requirement means you've got the disk swapping non-stop,
>>>> slowing the computer down by a factor of a billion, driving you crazy,
>>>> and wearing out the drive.
>>>
>>> I've been running 7-32 on this laptop with 3G for some years, without
>>> problems; it's only started hitting the limit in the last year or two,
>>> almost entirely due to huge/lazy/nosy scripts on webpages (running
>>> something that deactivates other than the current tab after a definable
>>> time mostly solves that).
>>
>> You'd have to use the PC very little to get away with that little memory.  I installed windows 7 on a machine with 4GB and before I'd opened any programs it was swapping like crazy.
>
> It's my main computer; OK, I rarely process video, but I have two browsers open, each with some tens of tabs, a mail/news client, and I not infrequently process audio, and edit a 100-page document with pictures (not at the same time) - so, basically, horses for courses.
>
> I don't know if 7-32 is slightly less resource-hungry than 7-64.

The benefit of x86 OS, is it functions as a "memory quota" for Firefox
processes. A single Firefox process cannot go past around 1.8GB of RAM.

Maybe with a little luck, the browser won't "go on a binge".

I had another one of those "run out of RAM" events here. When
I came back to the PC, there was a dialog saying "low on RAM".
And I had guessed that something I was doing had exited. I at
first assumed it was GIMP the image editor. Because I'd left
a job running where it was converting a 130 page PDF into
"bitmap files".

But later, when I started the browser (without feeding it a URL),
and a previous page I was viewing re-appeared, that's when I knew
it was the browser that ran out of RAM... again. The browser ran out
of RAM, and it got killed. That's what running an x64 OS does for you.
Lets the ponies out of the barn.

Paul

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 00:40:11 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/31/2022 6:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> I take it yours doesn't need the 6 inch cube cooler with twin 140 mm fans which barely gets inside my case? AMD recommends a water cooler but I couldn't be bothered as they're so unreliable.
>
> The box came with a Wraith cooler.

To misquote Crocodile Dundee, "That's not a cooler, this is a cooler:"
https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung-1112x625.jpg

> I got the install order wrong, and had to take
> the removable motherboard tray out of the case,
> to fit the cooler and its screws. I had assumed I
> could fit the cooler from the top, later on.

Crap case design. My Antec has a hole in the motherboard tray you can access from the other side to fit backplates, and there's a fan blowing against it.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 22:12:30 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/31/2022 3:44 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> What is 5600G?
>
> It's like your 3900XT.
>
> Your 3900XT is a Zen2 with no GPU.
> And likely kicks the ass of my processor.
>
> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%209%203900XT.html
>
> Mine is a Zen3 with a GPU inside. Saves power. It uses
> a third of the power my Intel machine uses. By having a GPU
> inside, I don't have to face buying a crap video card that
> nobody wants :-) My computer store has stock of GT 1030
> cards for example, with only two connectors on the front of them.
>
> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%205%205600G.html

How come they're both 7nm but yours uses less power?

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 00:45:58 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/31/2022 4:56 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:30:43, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:18:52 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 19:50:55, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> []
>>>>> Christ, my computers aren't that old. And I would never even put
>>>>> Windows 7 on 4GB machine. 4GB machines go in the bin. Using the
>>>>> minimum requirement means you've got the disk swapping non-stop,
>>>>> slowing the computer down by a factor of a billion, driving you crazy,
>>>>> and wearing out the drive.
>>>>
>>>> I've been running 7-32 on this laptop with 3G for some years, without
>>>> problems; it's only started hitting the limit in the last year or two,
>>>> almost entirely due to huge/lazy/nosy scripts on webpages (running
>>>> something that deactivates other than the current tab after a definable
>>>> time mostly solves that).
>>>
>>> You'd have to use the PC very little to get away with that little memory. I installed windows 7 on a machine with 4GB and before I'd opened any programs it was swapping like crazy.
>>
>> It's my main computer; OK, I rarely process video, but I have two browsers open, each with some tens of tabs, a mail/news client, and I not infrequently process audio, and edit a 100-page document with pictures (not at the same time) - so, basically, horses for courses.
>>
>> I don't know if 7-32 is slightly less resource-hungry than 7-64.
>
> The benefit of x86 OS, is it functions as a "memory quota" for Firefox
> processes. A single Firefox process cannot go past around 1.8GB of RAM.
>
> Maybe with a little luck, the browser won't "go on a binge".
>
> I had another one of those "run out of RAM" events here. When
> I came back to the PC, there was a dialog saying "low on RAM".
> And I had guessed that something I was doing had exited. I at
> first assumed it was GIMP the image editor. Because I'd left
> a job running where it was converting a 130 page PDF into
> "bitmap files".
>
> But later, when I started the browser (without feeding it a URL),
> and a previous page I was viewing re-appeared, that's when I knew
> it was the browser that ran out of RAM... again. The browser ran out
> of RAM, and it got killed. That's what running an x64 OS does for you.
> Lets the ponies out of the barn.

I have no problem on my main machine. 64 bit, 64 GB, will take 128 GB. I've never seen it use more than 50 GB (that was using all the cores for Large Hadron Collider calculations, 24 virtual machines running Linux at once).

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 00:45:58 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/31/2022 4:56 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:30:43, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:18:52 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 19:50:55, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> []
>>>>> Christ, my computers aren't that old. And I would never even put
>>>>> Windows 7 on 4GB machine. 4GB machines go in the bin. Using the
>>>>> minimum requirement means you've got the disk swapping non-stop,
>>>>> slowing the computer down by a factor of a billion, driving you crazy,
>>>>> and wearing out the drive.
>>>>
>>>> I've been running 7-32 on this laptop with 3G for some years, without
>>>> problems; it's only started hitting the limit in the last year or two,
>>>> almost entirely due to huge/lazy/nosy scripts on webpages (running
>>>> something that deactivates other than the current tab after a definable
>>>> time mostly solves that).
>>>
>>> You'd have to use the PC very little to get away with that little memory. I installed windows 7 on a machine with 4GB and before I'd opened any programs it was swapping like crazy.
>>
>> It's my main computer; OK, I rarely process video, but I have two browsers open, each with some tens of tabs, a mail/news client, and I not infrequently process audio, and edit a 100-page document with pictures (not at the same time) - so, basically, horses for courses.
>>
>> I don't know if 7-32 is slightly less resource-hungry than 7-64.
>
> The benefit of x86 OS, is it functions as a "memory quota" for Firefox
> processes. A single Firefox process cannot go past around 1.8GB of RAM.
>
> Maybe with a little luck, the browser won't "go on a binge".
>
> I had another one of those "run out of RAM" events here. When
> I came back to the PC, there was a dialog saying "low on RAM".
> And I had guessed that something I was doing had exited. I at
> first assumed it was GIMP the image editor. Because I'd left
> a job running where it was converting a 130 page PDF into
> "bitmap files".
>
> But later, when I started the browser (without feeding it a URL),
> and a previous page I was viewing re-appeared, that's when I knew
> it was the browser that ran out of RAM... again. The browser ran out
> of RAM, and it got killed. That's what running an x64 OS does for you.
> Lets the ponies out of the barn.

I don't get those annoying messages. You have to accept modern programs need more than 2 GB. I was running a 10 GB (on 8 cores) simulation the other day.

On 1/31/2022 7:57 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 22:12:30 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/31/2022 3:44 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>>> What is 5600G?
>>
>> It's like your 3900XT.
>>
>> Your 3900XT is a Zen2 with no GPU.
>> And likely kicks the ass of my processor.
>>
>> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%209%203900XT.html
>>
>> Mine is a Zen3 with a GPU inside. Saves power. It uses
>> a third of the power my Intel machine uses. By having a GPU
>> inside, I don't have to face buying a crap video card that
>> nobody wants :-) My computer store has stock of GT 1030
>> cards for example, with only two connectors on the front of them.
>>
>> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%205%205600G.html
>
> How come they're both 7nm but yours uses less power?

Mine has half the cores that yours does.
The clock is also cranked down a tiny bit, so
the VCore doesn't have to be as high.

I would have selected something more gutless
than that, except all the stock of those was gone.

Paul

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 02:14:15 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/31/2022 7:57 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 22:12:30 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/31/2022 3:44 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is 5600G?
>>>
>>> It's like your 3900XT.
>>>
>>> Your 3900XT is a Zen2 with no GPU.
>>> And likely kicks the ass of my processor.
>>>
>>> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%209%203900XT.html
>>>
>>> Mine is a Zen3 with a GPU inside. Saves power. It uses
>>> a third of the power my Intel machine uses. By having a GPU
>>> inside, I don't have to face buying a crap video card that
>>> nobody wants :-) My computer store has stock of GT 1030
>>> cards for example, with only two connectors on the front of them.
>>>
>>> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Zen/AMD-Ryzen%205%205600G.html
>>
>> How come they're both 7nm but yours uses less power?
>
> Mine has half the cores that yours does.
> The clock is also cranked down a tiny bit, so
> the VCore doesn't have to be as high.

But it's way faster than mine at some of those benchmarks. They've improved something catastrophically.

> I would have selected something more gutless
> than that, except all the stock of those was gone.

I only paid £410 for mine. The good thing about CPUs is they last forever. GPUs fail after a few years of hard labour, motherboards maybe 6.

On 1/31/2022 8:01 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 00:45:58 -0000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/31/2022 4:56 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 21:30:43, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:18:52 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 19:50:55, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>>>>> (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> []
>>>>>> Christ, my computers aren't that old.  And I would never even put
>>>>>> Windows 7 on 4GB machine.  4GB machines go in the bin.  Using the
>>>>>> minimum requirement means you've got the disk swapping non-stop,
>>>>>> slowing the computer down by a factor of a billion, driving you crazy,
>>>>>> and wearing out the drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been running 7-32 on this laptop with 3G for some years, without
>>>>> problems; it's only started hitting the limit in the last year or two,
>>>>> almost entirely due to huge/lazy/nosy scripts on webpages (running
>>>>> something that deactivates other than the current tab after a definable
>>>>> time mostly solves that).
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to use the PC very little to get away with that little memory.  I installed windows 7 on a machine with 4GB and before I'd opened any programs it was swapping like crazy.
>>>
>>> It's my main computer; OK, I rarely process video, but I have two browsers open, each with some tens of tabs, a mail/news client, and I not infrequently process audio, and edit a 100-page document with pictures (not at the same time) - so, basically, horses for courses.
>>>
>>> I don't know if 7-32 is slightly less resource-hungry than 7-64.
>>
>> The benefit of x86 OS, is it functions as a "memory quota" for Firefox
>> processes. A single Firefox process cannot go past around 1.8GB of RAM.
>>
>> Maybe with a little luck, the browser won't "go on a binge".
>>
>> I had another one of those "run out of RAM" events here. When
>> I came back to the PC, there was a dialog saying "low on RAM".
>> And I had guessed that something I was doing had exited. I at
>> first assumed it was GIMP the image editor. Because I'd left
>> a job running where it was converting a 130 page PDF into
>> "bitmap files".
>>
>> But later, when I started the browser (without feeding it a URL),
>> and a previous page I was viewing re-appeared, that's when I knew
>> it was the browser that ran out of RAM... again. The browser ran out
>> of RAM, and it got killed. That's what running an x64 OS does for you.
>> Lets the ponies out of the barn.
>
> I don't get those annoying messages.  You have to accept modern programs need more than 2 GB.  I was running a 10 GB (on 8 cores) simulation the other day.

The largest job I've run here, had an 80GB footprint, and I had
assigned a 128GB pagefile. It used around 30GB of the pagefile.

That's Microsoft ICE, panorama software that stitches image
files together. The run I was doing, had around 70 images in it,
in a matrix.

Both my machines here, have 64GB of RAM (one uses DDR3, the other
uses DDR4), but I use part of that for RAMDrives. The benchmark I
posted earlier, was done on a RAMDrive. If I'd bothered to run it
on Linux, the Linux TMPFS goes faster than the Windows ones. But there
aren't nice looking utilities for displaying results.

The RAM on the first machine cost $800, the RAM on the second machine
only $300. If I was to use DDR5, I don't think I'd be getting good deals
like that.

Paul

On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article <op.1gvulhdemvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:52:26 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > (in article <op.1gvn32zkmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> >
> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 02:35:41 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > > > (in article <op.1gt7q7ovmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 01:49:00 -0000, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 2022 Jan 30, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > > > > > (in article <op.1gt5zbmtmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, I only found this out from a pirate website, Microsoft don't bother
> > > > > > > telling you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your computer will not get a Windows 11 upgrade unless you have enabled
> > > > > > > TPM
> > > > > > > (trusted platform module) in your computer's BIOS. Most computers have
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > switched off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you’re very late to the party.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. MS _does_ tell people. The requirement for a TPM was clear from the
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > announcements. MS went so far as to set up a page on their site.
> > > > > > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/windows-11-requiremen
> > > > > > ts
> > > > > > and this page was the very first hit in a search for ‘hardware
> > > > > > requirements
> > > > > > win 11”. Note the date on the page: 30 Nov 2021. Oh. Wait.
> > > > > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-system-requiremen
> > > > > > ts
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > the 3rd hit in that search. That page dates from August... The second
> > > > > > hit
> > > > > > also cites the requirement for a TPM, but is undated. All three of the
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > 3 hits are from MS. Did you actually do a search?
> > > > >
> > > > > Why would I do that?
> > > >
> > > > so that you could find out information about the OS prior to doing an
> > > > update.
> > >
> > > Uh, I just press "install" when one appears. I don't research them.
> >
> > that’s a bad idea. In the past MS OS updates have broken hardware,
> > including but not limited to printers, scanners, assorted USB devices
> > including cell data network cards, 802.11 wireless cards, and Ethernet cards
> > (you may be detecting a theme...) and video cards. And, in one memorable
> > instance, sound cards. Just installing runs the risk of hardware not
> > working.
> > MS OS updates have also broken software, including software from Adobe,
> > Quark, and even MS themselves. This especially applies to installers;
> > notoriously MS Office 2003 worked on Win 8 and up, but its installer had
> > problems.
>
> I've owned about 20 machines, made about 100 machines, and been responsible
> for repair/upgrade/installation of about 5000 machines. Not once has any of
> the above happened. Perhaps it's something stupid you're doing?

nope. I had, for example, a HP inkjet printer which worked with Win XP and
Mac Tiger. When Vista and Leopard arrived, it didn’t work. I contacted HP.
They said that that printer wasn’t supported on XP and Leopard, that both
MS and Apple had changed their printing setups (lie; MS had, Apple hadn’t)
and recommended buying a new printer. I did. A Brother laser. Which still
works. And works with XP, as well.

Also, I had an Epson scanner which shipped with OCR software. The OCR
software broke on Win 7; Epson said that I needed to contact the people they
got the software from; they had a non-OEM version, which would work... but
they wanted money. I paid for OCR software from a different source. Still
works.

The sound card broke with Win XP SP3. Apparantly the drivers had a problem.
it took the vendors six months to kick compatible drivers out the door.
>
>
> BTW, hardware doesn't break with software.

It does if the drivers don’t work.
>
>
> > > > > I was waiting for it to appear in Windows Update. I have
> > > > > 7 PCs. I've only seen it mentioned on the 2 oldest ones, which said "not
> > > > > compatible" - not sure if that's the TPM or because they're old.
> > > >
> > > > probably part of the other hardware requirements, which you’d know about
> > > > if
> > > > you looked. Odds are that they have CPUs older than 8th gen. Machines with
> > > > CPUs older than 8th gen won’t install Win 11... unless you pull a trick.
> > > > All of my WinBoxes have CPUs which are too old. I could force the install,
> > > > but I won’t be installing an OS onto unsupported hardware.
> > >
> > > No idea what "8th gen" refers to. I have a Ryzen 9 3900XT, an i5 8600K,
> > > and 5
> > > very old things.
> >
> > 8th gen is the year that CPU was introduced. The i5 8600K is 8th gen, you
> > can
> > tell because its name starts with 8. A 8600K will probably be able to run
> > Win
> > 11, if the other hardware requirements (TPM 2, enough RAM, enough disk/SSD,
> > good enough video) are met. AMD doesn’t make things quite as easy to tell;
> > I think that a Ryzen 3900XT is 3rd gen, but Win 11 wants 4th gen so that one
> > may not work.
>
> I bought it one year ago brand new FFS. So M$ made an OS that needs an AMD
> newer than 1 year old?!
>
> Oh wait, you're entirely wrong.
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/win
> dows-11-supported-amd-processors

Cool. So you can use the Ryzen. You did notice the phrase ‘I think’ and
the phrase ‘may not work’, didn’t you?
>
>
> > > > > > 2. It’s not the TPM that’s the problem; my main WinBox has a TPM,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > won’t run Win 11 because it has TPM 1.2 and Win 11 requires TPM 2.0 or
> > > > > > later. (Yes, I know, there’s a way around that requirement. I don’t
> > > > > > feel
> > > > > > like forcing installation of an OS, of all things, onto unsupported
> > > > > > hardware.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the way around involve buying a TPM chip?
> > > >
> > > > that’s one way.
> > >
> > > Not spending money just to get 11.
> >
> > me either.
>
> Neither.
>
> > > > There’s also a way to play with the BIOS. And a way to
> > > > edit the installer script so that it doesn’t look for TPM 2.0. And
> > > > probably
> > > > other methods. There are a _lot_ of idiots who absolutely, positively,
> > > > MUST
> > > > run Win 11 and will go to considerable lengths to get past any roadblocks
> > > > MS
> > > > puts in the way. Me, I say that my WinBoxes will stay with 10, or earlier,
> > > > until they stop working. Unless I just reformat them and slap Ubuntu on
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I would like 11 as long as it doesn't fuck something up. If it's just a
> > > matter of stopping it checking, and the OS will run ok with no TPM, then
> > > I'll
> > > do that.
> >
> > it’ll install. it’s not supported, so it might not get updates, and it
> > might stop working for any reason or no reason at all, with or without
> > warning. And if you complain to MS, they’ll point out that you installed
> > on
> > unsupported hardware.
> >
> > I’m not going to install an OS onto unsupported hardware.
>
> No updates wouldn't bother me. Stopping working would. But if all I've
> bypassed is security, that shouldn't stop it working surely?

don’t know. not going to find out the hard way.
>
>
> > > In fact the older machines only run one program with no important data
> > > (it's
> > > all held on servers), so I can break something without much headache.
> >
> > i’d be careful.
>
> Why? They only have Windows, AVG, Boinc, and the last 6 hours of data
> crunched.

On 2022 Jan 31, Ken Blake wrote
(in article<lqsgvgpppna6pf4bj4h20bofnet1m7lko9@4ax.com>):

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:57:18 -0500, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > (in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> >
> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
> > > > (my responses usually follow points raised):
> > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
> > > > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
> > > >
> > > > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
> > > > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
> > > > something I actually want).
> > >
> > > Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all there.
> > > It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it,
> > > would
> > > you say no?
> >
> > That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
> > example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
> > insurance and whatnot.
>
> For me, "whatnot" includes being a contender for the world's ugliest
> car.

Heh, The Pontiac Aztek retired the trophy for that, having come from behind
to sieze it from assorted Citroens. A Caddie would have to fight its way past
a horde of French mobiles dating back to the 1950s just to challenge the
Aztek.
>
>
> > I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
> > problems, and too expensive upkeep.
>
> I all your driving is local (as mine is), there are no range problems.
> I'd like a Tesla.

I occasionally have to go 300 miles.Sorry, no EV until they can recharge as
quickly and easily as my Toyota can refuel.
>
>
> > A this year’s version of my Toyota,
> > that I’d take.
>
> Me too.

On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article <op.1gvx4ghamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 23:42:23 -0000, Ken Blake<Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:57:18 -0500, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > > (in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver
> > > > (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
> > > > > (my responses usually follow points raised):
> > > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
> > > > > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
> > > > >
> > > > > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
> > > > > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
> > > > > something I actually want).
> > > >
> > > > Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all
> > > > there.
> > > > It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it,
> > > > would
> > > > you say no?
> > >
> > > That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
> > > example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
> > > insurance and whatnot.
> >
> > For me, "whatnot" includes being a contender for the world's ugliest
> > car.
>
> https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/this-srx-is-rivaling-for-
> the-ugliest-cadillac-in-us-photo-gallery_5.jpg

not as ugly as an Aztek. Whoever designed the Aztek should be sacrificed to
Huitzilopochtli.
>
>
> Good ground clearance though.
>
> > > I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
> > > problems, and too expensive upkeep.
> >
> > I all your driving is local (as mine is), there are no range problems.
> > I'd like a Tesla.
>
> Hasn't Tesla got the second highest range?
>
> > > A this year’s version of my Toyota,
> > > that I’d take.
> >
> > Me too.
>
> Anybody want my 20 year old Renault? One careful driver, one fucking lunatic.

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 07:37:45 -0500, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 2022 Jan 31, Ken Blake wrote
>(in article<lqsgvgpppna6pf4bj4h20bofnet1m7lko9@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:57:18 -0500, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On 2022 Jan 31, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > (in article <op.1gvpzz2kmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>):
>> >
>> > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:14:55 -0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)<G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 20:40:41, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote
>> > > > (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> > > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 04:35:11 -0000, Bob Campbell <none@none.none> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Why have I not even been offered Windows 11 on 5 of my 7 PCs? I went
>> > > > > > > into windows update on all of them and checked for updates.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Maybe you have just been lucky. It has been “offered” on mine, but
>> > > > > > they
>> > > > > > are all too old, have no TPM and I don’t want 11 anyways.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I see no point in sticking to older versions of things.
>> > > >
>> > > > Conversely, I see no point in getting the latest just because it might
>> > > > work - unless I see some obvious advantage to it (and that being
>> > > > something I actually want).
>> > >
>> > > Why waste time seeing if you want the new things? Just have them all there.
>> > > It's free. If I offered to replace your car with a newer version of it,
>> > > would
>> > > you say no?
>> >
>> > That rather depends on which car you were offering. I’d pass on, for
>> > example, a Caddie with a V8; too expensive upkeep, with gas usage and
>> > insurance and whatnot.
>>
>> For me, "whatnot" includes being a contender for the world's ugliest
>> car.
>
>Heh, The Pontiac Aztek retired the trophy for that, having come from behind
>to sieze it from assorted Citroens. A Caddie would have to fight its way past
>a horde of French mobiles dating back to the 1950s just to challenge the
>Aztek.
>>
>>
>> > I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
>> > problems, and too expensive upkeep.
>>
>> I all your driving is local (as mine is), there are no range problems.
>> I'd like a Tesla.
>
>I occasionally have to go 300 miles.Sorry, no EV until they can recharge as
>quickly and easily as my Toyota can refuel.

No EV for me yet, either, but that's because they are all still too
expensive. One of these days (if I live that long; my 2020 Camry may
last me the rest of my life)...

On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 07:37:45 -0500, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

>On 2022 Jan 31, Ken Blake wrote
>(in article<lqsgvgpppna6pf4bj4h20bofnet1m7lko9@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:57:18 -0500, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I’d pass on a Tesla; range problems, charging
>> > problems, and too expensive upkeep.
>>
>> I all your driving is local (as mine is), there are no range problems.
>> I'd like a Tesla.
>
>I occasionally have to go 300 miles.Sorry, no EV until they can recharge as
>quickly and easily as my Toyota can refuel.

I've been seeing reports of 400+ miles on a charge, although I'm not
sure what vehicle that was, and saw a story the other day about a
Mercedes (?) that went 700 miles on a charge. There was a companion
story about an EV prototype that went from LA to NY and spent about 2.5
hours of that trip on a charger. Battery technology seems to be creeping
up.