rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
....
> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.

And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!
--
Slammy Friday & Caturday during daytimes! Too much sleep, sickness, poops, pees, pains, spams, issues, videos, etc. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 2022-02-19 5:48 p.m., Paul wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 5:02 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:
>> On 2022-02-19 4:53 p.m., Michael Logies wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:08:27 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If customers say they will not be using Windows 11, then said companies
>>>> will provide Linux versions of their software. Plain simple.
>>>
>>> Won`t happen:
>>> https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
>>>
>>> Major Linux Problems
>>> on the Desktop, 2022 edition
>>>
>>> Using a device with Chrome OS or Chrome OS Flex or using an Android
>>> Smartphone in desktop mode instead of Window 11 seem to be more
>>> realistic for me in the mass market.
>>
>> Linux is not likely to ever be ready for the desktop. It's basically
>> fine, but that's as far as it goes. It's much too likely to crap out
>> on you during an upgrade or an update and too unlikely to assist you
>> in fixing the issue to be deployed on regular people. Average people
>> find MacOS and Windows too complicated to fix so you can imagine how
>> open they would be to Linux.
>>
>
> That's why it has Timeshift or the like.

In Linux Mint? Yeah, I haven't had Linux Mint crap out on me on my other
laptop but if it does, I'm looking forward to giving it a try. I've set
it up to back up every week on my second hard disk. I'm glad that
they're actually offering such a tool when even Ubuntu is ignoring this
need.

> I just back up my EXT4 partitions with Macrium. Keep
> your Macrium CD, kids :-)
>
> Linux works best, if you don't screw with it too much.
> Nouveau instead of NVidia, avoid DKMS usage, that should
> give a better lifecycle behavior. Only a power user can find
> the menus to really screw it up.

I actually kind of want to use Nouveau on my other laptop instead of the
NVIDIA driver for that exact reason but since NVIDIA is not opening up
anything past the GTX800, I'm not likely to get decent performance. It
works, but that's about it.

> Every distro has a focus. Slackware or Arch or Gentoo or LFS, are not
> things you would try first. Neither would you try FreeBSD nor
> OpenBSD. Zorin is an example of where distros could go. There's
> at least one distro that charges money for the "Pro" version,
> and gives away the demo version. All that charging money does,
> is puts a "commercial spin" on the offering. The staff, in theory,
> care about the home user experience.
>
> Ubuntu has moved on, from the "purest user experience". They might make
> their money from the server side of the business. Sure, they still
> issue a desktop DVD, it's still carefully prepared. But when it
> does sloggy shit to further its business interests and takes
> three or four minutes to boot, you're going to be wishing for
> Jesus to come take you. It has absolutely the worst "systemd"
> manners. A cretin set that up. And don't forget to ditch the "Snaps".
>
> LinuxMint, relies on the preparations done by Ubuntu (as does the Microsoft
> Ubuntu Bash offering). LinuxMint is more focused on user experience,
> but the fit and finish of the different releases, varies somewhat.
> That's why I still keep 19.x on a USB flash stick, for maintenance OPs.
> It doesn't annoy me.
>
> I think there's some room for an ordinary user, to have a shop
> install a distro for them. Use an LTS version, with the lifecycle
> set at X number of years. Go back to the shop and have them
> do the upgrade to the next LTS version. That's if "Linux is too
> hard for me" :-) I think you could think up some kind of a plan,
> when the pressure is on to switch.

Well, I've settled with Linux Mint on the old laptop for the very
reasons you mentioned above. It's all about user experience and not any
kind of business.

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-19 7:54 p.m., Ant wrote:
> rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
> ...
>> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
>> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
>> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
>> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
>> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
>
> And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!

Well, if you're buying pre-built hardware, Windows is generally bundled
so you're almost forced to use it. Of course, anyone who hates Windows
and understands how to do more than just turn the computer on won't have
too much difficulty to install Linux.

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-19 4:48 p.m., Paul wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 5:02 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:
>> On 2022-02-19 4:53 p.m., Michael Logies wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:08:27 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If customers say they will not be using Windows 11, then said companies
>>>> will provide Linux versions of their software. Plain simple.
>>>
>>> Won`t happen:
>>> https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
>>>
>>> Major Linux Problems
>>> on the Desktop, 2022 edition
>>>
>>> Using a device with Chrome OS or Chrome OS Flex or using an Android
>>> Smartphone in desktop mode instead of Window 11 seem to be more
>>> realistic for me in the mass market.
>>
>> Linux is not likely to ever be ready for the desktop. It's basically
>> fine, but that's as far as it goes. It's much too likely to crap out
>> on you during an upgrade or an update and too unlikely to assist you
>> in fixing the issue to be deployed on regular people. Average people
>> find MacOS and Windows too complicated to fix so you can imagine how
>> open they would be to Linux.
>>
>
> That's why it has Timeshift or the like.
>
> I just back up my EXT4 partitions with Macrium. Keep
> your Macrium CD, kids :-)
>
> Linux works best, if you don't screw with it too much.
> Nouveau instead of NVidia, avoid DKMS usage, that should
> give a better lifecycle behavior. Only a power user can find
> the menus to really screw it up.
>
> Every distro has a focus. Slackware or Arch or Gentoo or LFS, are not
> things you would try first. Neither would you try FreeBSD nor
> OpenBSD. Zorin is an example of where distros could go. There's
> at least one distro that charges money for the "Pro" version,
> and gives away the demo version. All that charging money does,
> is puts a "commercial spin" on the offering. The staff, in theory,
> care about the home user experience.
>
> Ubuntu has moved on, from the "purest user experience". They might make
> their money from the server side of the business. Sure, they still
> issue a desktop DVD, it's still carefully prepared. But when it
> does sloggy shit to further its business interests and takes
> three or four minutes to boot, you're going to be wishing for
> Jesus to come take you. It has absolutely the worst "systemd"
> manners. A cretin set that up. And don't forget to ditch the "Snaps".
>
> LinuxMint, relies on the preparations done by Ubuntu (as does the Microsoft
> Ubuntu Bash offering). LinuxMint is more focused on user experience,
> but the fit and finish of the different releases, varies somewhat.
> That's why I still keep 19.x on a USB flash stick, for maintenance OPs.
> It doesn't annoy me.
>
> I think there's some room for an ordinary user, to have a shop
> install a distro for them. Use an LTS version, with the lifecycle
> set at X number of years. Go back to the shop and have them
> do the upgrade to the next LTS version. That's if "Linux is too
> hard for me" :-) I think you could think up some kind of a plan,
> when the pressure is on to switch.
>
>    Paul

Seeing you mentioned 'Zorin/, I just spent the best part of the day
installing it. First problem was it took ages to download, then it would
not play with Rufus, had to D/L an ISO to USB tool called Balenaetcher
then 3 tries later it finally figured out the ISO was corrupt, so did
anther forever D/L
Played with it for a while and got the text and the teenyy tiny cursor
to a reasonable size, next tried to install it to a new 128GB SSD
whicdidn't work the first coupe tries, so found a lenghty step by step
tutorial on the net, about 21 pages, studied it but was too much to
remember so decided to print it out,had to print it all as it would not
allow just the selected parts i wanted, well the printout came out, all
21 pages but about half was missing.

Then I reread it on line and made copious notes and tried again, But to
my chagrin the tutorial was for Zorin OS 15, I have Zorin OS 16 and the
procedures where quite different.
Finally muddled through it making sure that the bootloader stayyd on
that disk so as not to screw up my triple boot set up, Well you guessed
it, it screwed it up anyway, had to use
Macrium fix boot system utility and EasyBCD to get it all back together
againt

It's all working now is seems to be a nice easy to get used to distro as
it is remarkebly like Windows.
Now I really know why not too many people use Linux.

Tomorrow morning I am going to cut My hair, a one eight inch buzz cut, (
yes, I have been cutting my own hair for the last 12 years)

Rene

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:09:30 -0500, rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:

>On 2022-02-19 7:54 p.m., Ant wrote:
>> rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
>> ...
>>> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
>>> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
>>> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
>>> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
>>> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
>>
>> And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!
>
>Well, if you're buying pre-built hardware, Windows is generally bundled
>so you're almost forced to use it.

Only for those people who don't know how to change the operating
system.

>Of course, anyone who hates Windows
>and understands how to do more than just turn the computer on won't have
>too much difficulty to install Linux.

Right.

On 2/19/2022 7:09 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:
> On 2022-02-19 7:54 p.m., Ant wrote:
>> rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
>> ...
>>> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
>>> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
>>> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
>>> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
>>> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
>>
>> And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!
>
> Well, if you're buying pre-built hardware, Windows is generally bundled
> so you're almost forced to use it. Of course, anyone who hates Windows
> and understands how to do more than just turn the computer on won't have
> too much difficulty to install Linux.
>

That sounds so nice here on Usenet, but you do know in reality that
"anyone" you describe is probably much less that 1% of computer users.
Most everyone has absolutely no clue how to do anything else.

On 2/19/2022 8:41 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

> Tomorrow morning I am going to cut My hair, a one eight inch buzz cut,
> ( yes, I have been cutting my own hair for the last 12 years)
>
> Rene

You'll probably get a better haircut than I get at the barbers now.

The 75 year old barber "retired" when COVID came along. Now all
you get is the "barber shop graduates" :-) They even bring their
own bowl.

Paul

On 2022-02-19 10:00 p.m., Paul wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 8:41 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
>> Tomorrow morning I am going to cut My hair, a one eight inch buzz cut,
>> ( yes, I have been cutting my own hair for the last 12 years)
>>
>> Rene
>
> You'll probably get a better haircut than I get at the barbers now.
>
> The 75 year old barber "retired" when COVID came along. Now all
> you get is the "barber shop graduates" :-) They even bring their
> own bowl.
>
>    Paul
>
>

Bought a good quality pro clipper and do short brushcuts with the
various height guards. from 1/8 to 3/4 inch, saved myself about
$1700.00 in that time, also keeps me from pulling my hair out when I hit
one of these knotty computer problems. :-)

Rene

Michael Logies wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:57:24 +0000, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Nonetheless, does anyone have a good reason _why_ Microsoft is insisting on
>> the login and Internet connection (other than what MS might claim is that
>> reason)?
>
> Only with a Microsoft login you can use the services in the Microsoft
> cloud the company wants to sell to you. Somehow MS has to pave the way
> into its cloud for you.
>
Somewhat correct, but that doesn't mean a MSA(Microsoft Account) logon
for Windows is necessary - which is closer to the W11 MSA requirement.
- online MSA services exist without a MSA Windows logon

The cloud paving for MSFT began with Win95
- Passport.net, MSN Explorer - didn't even matter how one connected to
the internet(modem, satellite, cable).
MSN Explorer - Introduced in 1995, subscription based, data stored
locally and on the cloud, monetized(minimum adds b/c the sub provided ad
free msn.com account capable of POP3 or WebDav, much later IMAP.
MSn.com subscription accounts(peaked ~9 million in 2002, about 1.7
million in 2021). From 1995 to 2021 those subscriptions have brought in
over $17 billion in revenue - and that's just MSn.com(subscription
accounts)that range from $19.95 to $9.95(the latter a few Senior
grandfathered rates).

MSN Explorer no longer exists but the subscription model also lives on
independently for Hotmail, Live, Outlook.com ad-free accounts(19.95/mo)
that remain grandfathered for ad-free, higher mailbox storage limits,
and if chosen when offered higher capacity 25-40 GB(for life of the
account) OneDrive Storage.

All independent of the current required ad-free subscription, storage
models that come with Microsoft 365(Office) plans.

As noted earlier...MSFT has monetized Windows and its related services
from day one.

It's not a question of MSA requirements for Win11 and how will it be
monetized, it's already done.
MSFT's Cloud and Services(aka MSFT's Intelligent Cloud Segment) - is now
the number one cash cow for MSFT(profit and fastest growth).

Back in 2008, a MSFT Product Manger asked a few of us how to monetize
Windows and Live services - my response was 'you can ask a friend of
mine and your new boss' who is arriving on campus next week after
spending the last 12 years in Cupertino on the MSN Team and leading the
monetization of MSN(software, web portal, Hotmail acquistion, etc.)
- hilarious, all MSFT present employees forgot about the question and
started loading org charts up on their pc.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

Paul wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 4:44 PM, Michael Logies wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:57:24 +0000, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Nonetheless, does anyone have a good reason _why_ Microsoft is
>>> insisting on
>>> the login and Internet connection (other than what MS might claim is
>>> that
>>> reason)?
>>
>> Only with a Microsoft login you can use the services in the Microsoft
>> cloud the company wants to sell to you. Somehow MS has to pave the way
>> into its cloud for you.
>>
>
> An *optional* MSA login, is pavement enough, thanks.
>
> If a customer wants to partake, the mechanism is all too obvious.
> The login box appears when the MSA is required for said service.
>
> There's no need to be shoving it...
>
> The base OS works just fine without an MSA. Multiple
> installations that way here, tell me so. The mandatory
> MSA on this installation, does squat for me. I don't
> use OneDrive, and have minus infinity interest in
> sharing files on a Cloud server. The prompt for OneDrive,
> a notification, shows up *every time I boot*.
>
>    Paul
OD can be turned off.
Nothing loading here on W10/W11 in Local or MSA account.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2021

"...w�񧱤�" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote

| As noted earlier...MSFT has monetized Windows and its related services
| from day one.
|

That's not entirely true. They *tried* to monetize. Passport.
Hailstorm. And most notably, Active Desktop, which was
a cloud OS attempt almost 25 years before its time. It was
all brilliant, in a sense. Great foresight. But computers, software
and Internet speeds just weren't ready. No one was going to ask
for corporate ads on their Desktop, even if they could figure out
how to do it. And at a time when people were waiting 45 minutes
to download an email attachment, it just wasn't feasible. So
Active Desktop went unnoticed by most. (I loved it to customize
my folder windows.)

Nothing was forced with those things. And MS cloud profits
now are mainly corporate -- Office and Azure. In the past
MS have skimmed by forcing virtually all PCs to have Windows
pre-installed. Their main business has mostly been simple
monopoly -- in Windows and MSO. No one paid for services.
No one signed up with Passport or Hailstorm. No one bought
a SPOT watch so they could check their stocks while sitting
on the toilet. No one paid for hotmail. (I mean no one outside
of Redmond.) Google has montized all
those ideas while Microsoft failed over and over. They're great
with software, but they just don't seem to have the knack for
customer service. Or perhaps it's because corporate is their
real customer, so they can't so easily make simple products for
dummies, like Google and Apple do. Microsoft have arguably lost
out in the consumer market by keeping their OS flexible and
IT-friendly. People started finding it too hard to use. People
have switched to gmail and Macs in droves because they just
don't want to learn how to use a computer.

On 2022-02-19 8:46 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:09:30 -0500, rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-02-19 7:54 p.m., Ant wrote:
>>> rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
>>>> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
>>>> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
>>>> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
>>>> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
>>>
>>> And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!
>>
>> Well, if you're buying pre-built hardware, Windows is generally bundled
>> so you're almost forced to use it.
>
>
> Only for those people who don't know how to change the operating
> system.

Which is basically most people. I work in a field where I am exposed to
the generations after Generation X and I can tell you that these people
have neither the technical understanding nor the patience to change
operating systems. If what they bought came with Windows 10, they're
going to use Windows 10 unless it updates on its own to 11. The very
idea of changing it in general is a foreign concept to them and even if
you gave them instructions on how to do it, they wouldn't be able.

< snip >

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-19 8:50 p.m., sticks wrote:
> On 2/19/2022 7:09 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:
>> On 2022-02-19 7:54 p.m., Ant wrote:
>>> rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
>>>> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
>>>> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or
>>>> even to
>>>> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
>>>> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
>>>
>>> And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!
>>
>> Well, if you're buying pre-built hardware, Windows is generally
>> bundled so you're almost forced to use it. Of course, anyone who hates
>> Windows and understands how to do more than just turn the computer on
>> won't have too much difficulty to install Linux.
>>
>
> That sounds so nice here on Usenet, but you do know in reality that
> "anyone" you describe is probably much less that 1% of computer users.
> Most everyone has absolutely no clue how to do anything else.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Some people know how to do it; most
don't. I'd say that anyone who posts on Usenet probably knows how to
since Usenet is something the American government has tasked the world
with forgetting (because anything that can't be censored does not
deserve to exist) and you generally have to go out of your way to get
connected.

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

rabidR04CH wrote:

> The hardware is still in your possession and secured in every possible
> way by Microsoft. If ever you want to continue using your hardware but
> Microsoft decided that your system is too old to still support, you can
> continue using Windows without updates or install Linux on it.

*With that forced login, Microsoft _can_ unilaterally cripple your PC!*

Don't believe me that it's possible (and perhaps even probable)?
You do know that Apple can and does _cripple_ that hardware on you, right?
Apple cripples your login.
That cripples the hardware.

It doesn't matter (to Apple anyway) that you _own_ that hardware.
Want proof of the veracity of my claims?

This is what happens when you try to escape from the walled garden
simply by not logging into it after two years of nag screens from Apple.
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple _forces_ a log in!
<https://i.postimg.cc/g008YhxP/appleid02.jpg> Apple _forces_ a lock out!
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg> Apple _disables_ your acct!
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg> Apple _locks_ you out!
<https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg> Apple won't let you back in!
<>
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR5mZ287/appleid07.jpg> Apple fails App Store test
<https://i.postimg.cc/TwN6P0QR/appleid08.jpg> Only Apple requires a login
<https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity
<https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> Apps become non functional
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg> Apple _forces_ extra logins!
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y9kkj19v/appleid12.jpg> Apple tracking server login
<>
<https://i.postimg.cc/gj0r2cBP/osupdate01.jpg> iOS 13.5 to iOS 15.3.1
<https://i.postimg.cc/sfZ0XP71/osupdate02.jpg> Deleting Siri stuff works
<https://i.postimg.cc/nLjqk2HD/osupdate03.jpg> Even iOS updates work
<https://i.postimg.cc/bJPKDSZ1/osupdate04.jpg> Can't download an app twice
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gt39Q7Pp/osupdate05.jpg> iCloud TOC is again accepted
<>
<https://i.postimg.cc/hvCnqdj4/trust01.jpg> 9:35PM PC trust established
<https://i.postimg.cc/qMzV3gqn/trust02.jpg> 9:36PM PC trust required again!
All that simply because I refused to be locked inside the walled garden.

Ant wrote:

> And no one is forcing to get and use Windows!

While this is true, once you're forced to log into Windows 11, Microsoft can
pull the same sleazy tricks Apple does by locking you out of your own PC.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg>

You _think_ you own the computer - but once you're forced to log into it...
*You no longer own anything*

Ken Blake wrote:

> Only for those people who don't know how to change the operating
> system.

Given you're forced to log into the device, and given Microsoft "can"
unilaterally _cripple_ your hardware so that you can no longer do that...

How are you going to change the operating system if M$ pulls Apple's tricks?
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>

rabidR04CH wrote:

> That's exactly what I'm saying. Some people know how to do it; most
> don't. I'd say that anyone who posts on Usenet probably knows how to
> since Usenet is something the American government has tasked the world
> with forgetting (because anything that can't be censored does not
> deserve to exist) and you generally have to go out of your way to get
> connected.

The problem which you need to be aware of is the _power_ of that force.

My point is that we know once M$ forces a login, they have the power to lock
you out of your own hardware, which M$ can then _cripple_ at will, giving
you no recourse whatsoever to reclaim your own hardware from M$ grasp.

Don't believe me it's possible?
Try not logging into an iOS device for two years (that's all it takes!)
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg>
And then try to validate your forced login using a VPN (ask me how I know).
<https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg>

My point isn't about Apple - it's about the _power_ that force gives M$!

....w�񧱤� wrote:

> It's not a question of MSA requirements for Win11 and how will it be
> monetized, it's already done.

My advice to others is to _understand_ the power that forced login provides.

This thread is about Microsoft doing what Apple already does, which is
forcing a login in order to make a consumer operating system functional.

What you likely should know about that _power_ is what I've learned by
testing the walled garden, by _not_ logging into it for two years.

For two years I received nags to log into the walled garden.
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg>
For two years, I resisted.
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>

And for that defiance... Apple unilaterally _destroyed_ my hardware.
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>

Apple unilaterally turned my expensive iPad into a worthless brick.
All because I _refused_ to log into their iCloud for two years.

If Apple can destroy your hardware - why can't Microsoft do it too?

On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 23:00:15 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>On 2/19/2022 8:41 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
>> Tomorrow morning I am going to cut My hair, a one eight inch buzz cut,
>> ( yes, I have been cutting my own hair for the last 12 years)
>>
>> Rene
>
>You'll probably get a better haircut than I get at the barbers now.
>
>The 75 year old barber "retired" when COVID came along. Now all
>you get is the "barber shop graduates" :-) They even bring their
>own bowl.

I used to know a guy who got his haircuts for free by going to the
barber college and letting the students have a go at it. They can
practice on each other, but that only goes so far. They need a steady
supply of fresh blood.

On 2/19/2022 8:05 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:
> On 2022-02-19 5:48 p.m., Paul wrote:
>> On 2/19/2022 5:02 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-19 4:53 p.m., Michael Logies wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:08:27 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If customers say they will not be using Windows 11, then said
>>>>> companies
>>>>> will provide Linux versions of their software. Plain simple.
>>>>
>>>> Won`t happen:
>>>> https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html
>>>>
>>>> Major Linux Problems
>>>> on the Desktop, 2022 edition
>>>>
>>>> Using a device with Chrome OS or Chrome OS Flex or using an Android
>>>> Smartphone in desktop mode instead of Window 11 seem to be more
>>>> realistic for me in the mass market.
>>>
>>> Linux is not likely to ever be ready for the desktop. It's basically
>>> fine, but that's as far as it goes. It's much too likely to crap out
>>> on you during an upgrade or an update and too unlikely to assist you
>>> in fixing the issue to be deployed on regular people. Average people
>>> find MacOS and Windows too complicated to fix so you can imagine how
>>> open they would be to Linux.
>>>
>>
>> That's why it has Timeshift or the like.
>
> In Linux Mint? Yeah, I haven't had Linux Mint crap out on me on my other
> laptop but if it does, I'm looking forward to giving it a try. I've set
> it up to back up every week on my second hard disk. I'm glad that
> they're actually offering such a tool when even Ubuntu is ignoring this
> need.
>
>> I just back up my EXT4 partitions with Macrium. Keep
>> your Macrium CD, kids :-)
>>
>> Linux works best, if you don't screw with it too much.
>> Nouveau instead of NVidia, avoid DKMS usage, that should
>> give a better lifecycle behavior. Only a power user can find
>> the menus to really screw it up.
>
> I actually kind of want to use Nouveau on my other laptop instead of the
> NVIDIA driver for that exact reason but since NVIDIA is not opening up
> anything past the GTX800, I'm not likely to get decent performance. It
> works, but that's about it.
>
>> Every distro has a focus. Slackware or Arch or Gentoo or LFS, are not
>> things you would try first. Neither would you try FreeBSD nor
>> OpenBSD. Zorin is an example of where distros could go. There's
>> at least one distro that charges money for the "Pro" version,
>> and gives away the demo version. All that charging money does,
>> is puts a "commercial spin" on the offering. The staff, in theory,
>> care about the home user experience.
>>
>> Ubuntu has moved on, from the "purest user experience". They might make
>> their money from the server side of the business. Sure, they still
>> issue a desktop DVD, it's still carefully prepared. But when it
>> does sloggy shit to further its business interests and takes
>> three or four minutes to boot, you're going to be wishing for
>> Jesus to come take you. It has absolutely the worst "systemd"
>> manners. A cretin set that up. And don't forget to ditch the "Snaps".
>>
>> LinuxMint, relies on the preparations done by Ubuntu (as does the
>> Microsoft
>> Ubuntu Bash offering). LinuxMint is more focused on user experience,
>> but the fit and finish of the different releases, varies somewhat.
>> That's why I still keep 19.x on a USB flash stick, for maintenance OPs.
>> It doesn't annoy me.
>>
>> I think there's some room for an ordinary user, to have a shop
>> install a distro for them. Use an LTS version, with the lifecycle
>> set at X number of years. Go back to the shop and have them
>> do the upgrade to the next LTS version. That's if "Linux is too
>> hard for me" :-) I think you could think up some kind of a plan,
>> when the pressure is on to switch.
>
> Well, I've settled with Linux Mint on the old laptop for the very
> reasons you mentioned above. It's all about user experience and not any
> kind of business.
>

I have Linux (as an alternate OS) on my machine and think I could get
by with it just fine. Of course, I did okay with a dumb terminal
connected to Sun workstation in the 90's too. Firefox and Thunderbird go
a LONG WAY, for most people I think. Current "software managers" makes
access to basic software simple. I can't really speak as to how well the
gamers or video editors would fare, without support from the likes
Nvidia. Being able to compile a program in C++ or run (interpret) a
program in Python provides a lot of potential functionality. Knowing the
difference doesn't hurt either! ; )

On 2/19/2022 11:23 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2022-02-19 10:00 p.m., Paul wrote:
>> On 2/19/2022 8:41 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>
>>> Tomorrow morning I am going to cut My hair, a one eight inch buzz
>>> cut, ( yes, I have been cutting my own hair for the last 12 years)
>>>
>>> Rene
>>
>> You'll probably get a better haircut than I get at the barbers now.
>>
>> The 75 year old barber "retired" when COVID came along. Now all
>> you get is the "barber shop graduates" :-) They even bring their
>> own bowl.
>>
>>     Paul
>>
>>
>
> Bought a good quality pro clipper and do short brushcuts with the
> various height guards. from 1/8 to 3/4 inch,  saved myself about
> $1700.00 in that time, also keeps me from pulling my hair out when I hit
> one of these knotty computer problems.  :-)
>
> Rene
>

Me too. I also did my dog this morning (she has her own clippers), that
saved about $50. : )
I tell people that it's not very difficult, as "deep down she looks like
a dog!" I wish I would have learned to trim my own hair sooner--it's
simpler than I would have guessed. Cleanup is even faster than I would
have guessed. To save anyone interested in pursuing this research time,
I can recommend the "Wahl" brand of trimmer. I bought a complete kit
for about $40 which includes a pair of scissors and a "cover" to put
over your shoulders. YMMV.

On 2/19/2022 4:52 PM, rabidR04CH wrote:

> Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
> were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
> Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
> use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
> you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
>
>

Of course, there is a difference between illegal and
immoral/unethical... And there is something to be said about using your
monopolistic position in a market to push things in a direction that
takes away the freedoms that people enjoy. The "Internet" was invented
and paid for by the US government. It is "ours", not the property of
Google or MS, and I think it is very important to not forget that as we
access to it "thwarted".

Mayayana wrote:
> "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote
>
> | As noted earlier...MSFT has monetized Windows and its related services
> | from day one.
> |
>
> That's not entirely true. They *tried* to monetize. Passport.
> Hailstorm. And most notably, Active Desktop, which was
> a cloud OS attempt almost 25 years before its time. It was
> all brilliant, in a sense. Great foresight. But computers, software
> and Internet speeds just weren't ready. No one was going to ask
> for corporate ads on their Desktop, even if they could figure out
> how to do it. And at a time when people were waiting 45 minutes
> to download an email attachment, it just wasn't feasible. So
> Active Desktop went unnoticed by most. (I loved it to customize
> my folder windows.)
>
> Nothing was forced with those things. And MS cloud profits
> now are mainly corporate -- Office and Azure. In the past
> MS have skimmed by forcing virtually all PCs to have Windows
> pre-installed. Their main business has mostly been simple
> monopoly -- in Windows and MSO. No one paid for services.
> No one signed up with Passport or Hailstorm. No one bought
> a SPOT watch so they could check their stocks while sitting
> on the toilet. No one paid for hotmail. (I mean no one outside
> of Redmond.) Google has montized all
> those ideas while Microsoft failed over and over. They're great
> with software, but they just don't seem to have the knack for
> customer service. Or perhaps it's because corporate is their
> real customer, so they can't so easily make simple products for
> dummies, like Google and Apple do. Microsoft have arguably lost
> out in the consumer market by keeping their OS flexible and
> IT-friendly. People started finding it too hard to use. People
> have switched to gmail and Macs in droves because they just
> don't want to learn how to use a computer.
>
>
Monetization is nothing more than the result of obtaining revenue from
any given product.

It's not what was tried and succeeded or failed, the platforms and
products that supported the success and failures created revenue.

Windows 11 with or without a required MSA logon, like all o/s before
is/has already been monetized.

HoTMaiL - In 1998, the year after acquisition by MSFT, 0.5 million paid
for ad-free Hotmail. A small percentage of that was use with MSN
Explorer, the balance - paying for Hotmail Plus. Other's like myself,
also got it free. In 2017 I no longer had a need for that email or
ad-free account and closed it(~$2400 that never reached the monetization
bucket...so yes, it would be correct to say a few others also didn't pay
for HoTMaiL).

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote

| > Absolutely none of what Microsoft is doing is illegal and even if it
| > were, you agreed to it when you first set up your computer or installed
| > Windows. Nobody is obligated to buy Office, to install Office or even to
| > use the web Office apps. Nobody is forced to use Edge either. Hell,
| > you're not even forced to use the Microsoft Store.
| >
| >
| | Of course, there is a difference between illegal and
| immoral/unethical... And there is something to be said about using your
| monopolistic position in a market to push things in a direction that
| takes away the freedoms that people enjoy. The "Internet" was invented
| and paid for by the US government. It is "ours", not the property of
| Google or MS, and I think it is very important to not forget that as we
| access to it "thwarted".

Yes, but people like RabidRoach are prisoners defending
their jailer. There's no reasoning with them. We can only
hope that US regulators manage to get up the courage of
EU regulators. On the bright side, things are changing
somewhat. Not so much because Congresspeople understand
what's going on, but because they see how much voters are
swayed by social media, and they understand that. So
they're starting to think twice about the power these companies
have.

"...w�񧱤�" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote

| Monetization is nothing more than the result of obtaining revenue from
| any given product.
| Yes. Amking money. Why do you need all the terminology
to say that?

| It's not what was tried and succeeded or failed, the platforms and
| products that supported the success and failures created revenue.
|

MSO and Windows monopolies made money. Period. Again,
why the convoltued statement? They profited from monopolies.
Now thet also profit from Azure and gaming. The rest was pretty
much all a loss. They've been trying to do cloud and they've
stupendously failed, for 25 years. Locking down the system
is their strategy now. You made it sound like this has been
business as usual for 25 years. I'm running XP and 7 here, as
well as occasional Win10. I've never had any contact at all with
any kind of MS cloud or their store.

| Windows 11 with or without a required MSA logon, like all o/s before
| is/has already been monetized.
|

You're not making sense. The point is that the progressive lockdown
is aimed at having a captive audience and charging for software
usage. Windows itself is likely to convert to rental and/or
ad-supported. That's a radical development, as Win10 forced
updates were also a radical development. That has nothing to
do with hotmail or active desktop. You sound like RabidRoach,
twisting facts to make it sound like nothing has changed.