On 2/24/2022 1:41 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
...just a subtle commentary that its really OT

How can basic knowledge about computer hardware be off-topic in a group
supposedly about operating systems?
I always though the job of an OS was to help manage computer hardware.
How can we measure how well Windows 11 does that if "we" choose to
remain ignorant about how the hardware and software works. I don't think
we wish to join the likes of the ios army.

You could say that the job of an automobile is to get you to place to
place without requiring that you know anything about how an automobile
works. But I have taken the trouble to understand that system too, at
least to a degree. "Apathy will get you nowhere."

I saw in someones signature here, "Apple is able to charge so much
because it's customer's are so ignorant about what they are buying."
Lets advocate for "greater knowledge". Are Windows 10 and 11 merely
"appliances" with a wall between the manufacturer and its customers?
Like a lot of folks, I'm feeling pushed towards seeking an alternative
as MS squeezes tighter and tighter.. I want an OS from MS, not
Facebook. YMMV.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:02:29 -0500
Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

> On 2/24/2022 1:41 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> ..just a subtle commentary that its really OT
>
> How can basic knowledge about computer hardware be off-topic in a
> group supposedly about operating systems?
> I always though the job of an OS was to help manage computer hardware.
> How can we measure how well Windows 11 does that if "we" choose to
> remain ignorant about how the hardware and software works. I don't
> think we wish to join the likes of the ios army.
>
> You could say that the job of an automobile is to get you to place to
> place without requiring that you know anything about how an automobile
> works. But I have taken the trouble to understand that system too, at
> least to a degree. "Apathy will get you nowhere."
>
> I saw in someones signature here, "Apple is able to charge so much
> because it's customer's are so ignorant about what they are buying."
> Lets advocate for "greater knowledge". Are Windows 10 and 11 merely
> "appliances" with a wall between the manufacturer and its customers?
> Like a lot of folks, I'm feeling pushed towards seeking an
> alternative as MS squeezes tighter and tighter.. I want an OS from
> MS, not Facebook. YMMV.

A good alternative is MX Linux.

https://mxlinux.org/

The only thing I didn't like was the panel was on the left side of the
screen. It can be place at the bottom using MX Tweak, or any other
place you want it.

It has Timeshift, so if you really screw it up, you can run Timeshift
and restore it to your original configuration.

On 2/26/2022 3:51 PM, Johnny wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 15:02:29 -0500
> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/24/2022 1:41 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> ..just a subtle commentary that its really OT
>>
>> How can basic knowledge about computer hardware be off-topic in a
>> group supposedly about operating systems?
>> I always though the job of an OS was to help manage computer hardware.
>> How can we measure how well Windows 11 does that if "we" choose to
>> remain ignorant about how the hardware and software works. I don't
>> think we wish to join the likes of the ios army.
>>
>> You could say that the job of an automobile is to get you to place to
>> place without requiring that you know anything about how an automobile
>> works. But I have taken the trouble to understand that system too, at
>> least to a degree. "Apathy will get you nowhere."
>>
>> I saw in someones signature here, "Apple is able to charge so much
>> because it's customer's are so ignorant about what they are buying."
>> Lets advocate for "greater knowledge". Are Windows 10 and 11 merely
>> "appliances" with a wall between the manufacturer and its customers?
>> Like a lot of folks, I'm feeling pushed towards seeking an
>> alternative as MS squeezes tighter and tighter.. I want an OS from
>> MS, not Facebook. YMMV.
>
> A good alternative is MX Linux.
>
> https://mxlinux.org/
>
> The only thing I didn't like was the panel was on the left side of the
> screen. It can be place at the bottom using MX Tweak, or any other
> place you want it.
>
> It has Timeshift, so if you really screw it up, you can run Timeshift
> and restore it to your original configuration.

Which is not the same thing as Macrium.

https://teejeetech.com/timeshift/

"Timeshift is similar to applications like rsnapshot, BackInTime and TimeVault
but with different goals.

It is designed to protect only system files and settings.

User files such as documents, pictures and music are excluded. This ensures
that your files remains unchanged when you restore your system to an earlier date.
"

Which might be aided and abetted, by moving your home to a /home partition
separate from the rest. You could even put your /home on a separate drive.

*******

Thorough backups give better protection against wanton destruction
(the kind good home experiments provide :-) ).

You can even backup EXT4 and grub with Macrium (using the Macrium CD if you wish).
The machine doesn't even need a whiff of Windows on it, to insert the Macrium CD,
boot up, and run a backup. And back up the entire disk with smart copy (does not
copy the white space). A 20GB install on a 1TB drive makes a 30GB .mrimg.
(This could be related to journaling, but I haven't done any comparisons
to EXT3 backups to see how they differ in size.)

This is one of the reasons I continue to use EXT4 for Linux work.
My "workflow" has better support for it.

I've had a couple disks wiped out by MBR mischief, not of my own making !

I recovered a disk *once*, with TestDisk. But every other attempt has failed.

Paul

On 2/26/2022 3:02 PM, Bill wrote:
I want an OS from MS, not Facebook. YMMV.

Upon a second reading, I realized that this sentence was ambiguous.
But both interpretations are correct. In fact, I agree with it so
strongly that I may make it my "signature". : )

Bill wrote:
> On 2/24/2022 1:41 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> ..just a subtle commentary that its really OT
>
> How can basic knowledge about computer hardware be off-topic in a group
> supposedly about operating systems?
> I always though the job of an OS was to help manage computer hardware.
> How can we measure how well Windows 11 does that if "we" choose to
> remain ignorant about how the hardware and software works. I don't think
> we wish to join the likes of the ios army.
>
> You could say that the job of an automobile is to get you to place to
> place without requiring that you know anything about how an automobile
> works. But I have taken the trouble to understand that system too, at
> least to a degree. "Apathy will get you nowhere."
>
> I saw in someones signature here, "Apple is able to charge so much
> because it's customer's are so ignorant about what they are buying."
> Lets advocate for "greater knowledge".  Are Windows 10 and 11  merely
> "appliances" with a wall between the manufacturer and its customers?
> Like a lot of folks, I'm feeling pushed towards seeking an alternative
> as MS squeezes tighter and tighter..  I want an OS from MS, not
> Facebook. YMMV.

I could reference a boat load of metaphors as a comparison reference to
an o/s, just not worth it.

While basic knowledge on computer hardware is typically topic centered,
it seems a stretch to equate terminal usage, punch cards, hex string
equations etc. with the group(s) names - windows 10 or windows 11.

Entertaining, thread digression - Yes. On topic - Maybe not.

Don't get me wrong...the digression is normal, and worthy as nostaglia.

As far as Apple and MSFT - the for/against sides have been around since
the last century.
- at this point in time, we can all hope for what we want, but in most
cases that's a pipe dream for the majority of folks reading these
groups. The target audience age for Windows 10, 11, Apple iOs is and has
been for some time anywhere from 3-5 decades younger.
i.e. what we and most in here want, with few exceptions has little
likelihood of happening.

....but 'hope springs eternal' - doubtful Alexander Pope had an o/s in mind

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 2/26/2022 6:26 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> On 2/24/2022 1:41 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> ..just a subtle commentary that its really OT
>>
>> How can basic knowledge about computer hardware be off-topic in a group
>> supposedly about operating systems?
>> I always though the job of an OS was to help manage computer hardware.
>> How can we measure how well Windows 11 does that if "we" choose to
>> remain ignorant about how the hardware and software works. I don't
>> think we wish to join the likes of the ios army.
>>
>> You could say that the job of an automobile is to get you to place to
>> place without requiring that you know anything about how an automobile
>> works. But I have taken the trouble to understand that system too, at
>> least to a degree. "Apathy will get you nowhere."
>>
>> I saw in someones signature here, "Apple is able to charge so much
>> because it's customer's are so ignorant about what they are buying."
>> Lets advocate for "greater knowledge".  Are Windows 10 and 11  merely
>> "appliances" with a wall between the manufacturer and its customers?
>> Like a lot of folks, I'm feeling pushed towards seeking an alternative
>> as MS squeezes tighter and tighter..  I want an OS from MS, not
>> Facebook. YMMV.
>
> I could reference a boat load of metaphors as a comparison reference to
> an o/s, just not worth it.
>
> While basic knowledge on computer hardware is typically topic centered,
> it seems a stretch to equate terminal usage, punch cards, hex string
> equations etc. with the group(s) names - windows 10 or windows 11.
>
> Entertaining, thread digression - Yes. On topic - Maybe not.
>
> Don't get me wrong...the digression is normal, and worthy as nostaglia.
>
> As far as Apple and MSFT - the for/against sides have been around since
> the last century.
>  - at this point in time, we can all hope for what we want, but in most
> cases that's a pipe dream for the majority of folks reading these
> groups. The target audience age for Windows 10, 11, Apple iOs is and has
> been for some time anywhere from 3-5 decades younger.
> i.e. what we and most in here want, with few exceptions has little
> likelihood of happening.

That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.

Bill wrote:
> On 2/26/2022 6:26 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> On 2/24/2022 1:41 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>>> ..just a subtle commentary that its really OT
>>>
>>> How can basic knowledge about computer hardware be off-topic in a group
>>> supposedly about operating systems?
>>> I always though the job of an OS was to help manage computer hardware.
>>> How can we measure how well Windows 11 does that if "we" choose to
>>> remain ignorant about how the hardware and software works. I don't
>>> think we wish to join the likes of the ios army.
>>>
>>> You could say that the job of an automobile is to get you to place to
>>> place without requiring that you know anything about how an automobile
>>> works. But I have taken the trouble to understand that system too, at
>>> least to a degree. "Apathy will get you nowhere."
>>>
>>> I saw in someones signature here, "Apple is able to charge so much
>>> because it's customer's are so ignorant about what they are buying."
>>> Lets advocate for "greater knowledge".  Are Windows 10 and 11  merely
>>> "appliances" with a wall between the manufacturer and its customers?
>>> Like a lot of folks, I'm feeling pushed towards seeking an
>>> alternative as MS squeezes tighter and tighter..  I want an OS from
>>> MS, not Facebook. YMMV.
>>
>> I could reference a boat load of metaphors as a comparison reference
>> to an o/s, just not worth it.
>>
>> While basic knowledge on computer hardware is typically topic
>> centered, it seems a stretch to equate terminal usage, punch cards,
>> hex string equations etc. with the group(s) names - windows 10 or
>> windows 11.
>>
>> Entertaining, thread digression - Yes. On topic - Maybe not.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong...the digression is normal, and worthy as nostaglia.
>>
>> As far as Apple and MSFT - the for/against sides have been around
>> since the last century.
>>   - at this point in time, we can all hope for what we want, but in
>> most cases that's a pipe dream for the majority of folks reading these
>> groups. The target audience age for Windows 10, 11, Apple iOs is and
>> has been for some time anywhere from 3-5 decades younger.
>> i.e. what we and most in here want, with few exceptions has little
>> likelihood of happening.
>
> That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
>
:)
As you and all should. Though I doubt Windows 10 or Windows 11 or this
group have a line item on the ballot. You could always write that in,
though the clerk might think twice about the voter's state of mind.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2021

"Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote

| That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
|

Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
court case then his company wins by default when you
don't show up.

Mayayana wrote:
> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>
> | That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
> |
>
> Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
> convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
> a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
> court case then his company wins by default when you
> don't show up.
>
>
Wrong interpretation.
Every registered voter should vote.
- but it wasn't really about elections per se.
Election ballots don't have line items for Windows 10 or 11.
If they did, that would also be and OT item.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 2/27/2022 2:09 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
> Mayayana wrote:
>> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>>
>> | That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
>> |
>>
>>    Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
>> convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
>> a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
>> court case then his company wins by default when you
>> don't show up.
>>
>>
> Wrong interpretation.
> Every registered voter should vote.
>  - but it wasn't really about elections per se.
> Election ballots don't have line items for Windows 10 or 11.
> If they did, that would also be and OT item.
>

I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might read
some of the posts in these newsgroups. If not, shame on them...

"Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote

| I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might read
| some of the posts in these newsgroups. If not, shame on them...

They started their web forums specifically to shut down
this kind of unmoderated talk. In their online forums you
can win "medal" icons to adorn your posts if you praise
MS products. For years now we've had visiting envoys such
as Winston, Paul Clement, and others whose names I've
forgotten, who hang around here in the boondocks, motivated
only by their own religious devotion, trying
to convert the savages. I expect that's as close as you're
going to get to the idea of MS being interested.

I think that Winston is partially right about that, at least: MS
don't have any interest in a marketing focus group composed of
aging cranks who are no longer supporting the party line and
don't work as IT people. Back in the heyday, many of the people
here would have been corporate IT people, and being an MS MVP
was a professional qualification. People actually paid to get
certifications from MS. There was money to be made in that.

The MS customer is also not young. It's corporate. At
this point it's almost exclusively corporate. Younger people
I know (Millennials) all switched to Macs. They didn't want
to have learn about things like anti-virus and thought that
Macs were protected by Steve Jobs's magical powers. Go into
any wifi coffee shop. Who do you see? Not college students
wielding Dell laptops but rather a field of silver laptop covers,
winking back at you.
Older people? I have a brother with a large business where he
has to deal with lots of office-type docs from lots of sources. He
used to maintain Windows and Mac computers to accommodate
everyone. He now only needs Macs. Do MS care? Of course
they hope to pick some pockets with their app store. They'd
like to sell more overpriced Surface tablets. But their customer
has always been corporate. The general public are just an
unpaid beta testing army. The trouble with something like
a Surface is that it's the price of a high-end computer with
none of the ergonomics. MS have always made the best tablets
for functionality. A full Windows OS. But if someone wants to
really use a computer, why in the world would they do it on
a Lilliputian, swipey tablet? I'm sitting in front of a real keyboard,
a trackball, and a 27" monitor.

On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 23:01:42 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>On 2/27/2022 2:09 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> Mayayana wrote:
>>> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>>>
>>> | That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
>>> |
>>>
>>>    Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
>>> convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
>>> a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
>>> court case then his company wins by default when you
>>> don't show up.
>>>
>>>
>> Wrong interpretation.
>> Every registered voter should vote.
>>  - but it wasn't really about elections per se.
>> Election ballots don't have line items for Windows 10 or 11.
>> If they did, that would also be and OT item.
>>
>
>I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might read
>some of the posts in these newsgroups. If not, shame on them...

At least one? Maybe. There's no way to know for sure, but my guess is
that there isn't.

Bill wrote:
> On 2/27/2022 2:09 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> Mayayana wrote:
>>> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>>>
>>> | That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
>>> |
>>>
>>>    Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
>>> convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
>>> a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
>>> court case then his company wins by default when you
>>> don't show up.
>>>
>>>
>> Wrong interpretation.
>> Every registered voter should vote.
>>   - but it wasn't really about elections per se.
>> Election ballots don't have line items for Windows 10 or 11.
>> If they did, that would also be and OT item.
>>
>
> I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might read
> some of the posts in these newsgroups.  If not, shame on them...

That presence in nntp forums began to disappear in 2002 and became
non-existent before 2004.
Online forums initially branded as 'MSN Communities' were the initial
vehicle, gradually evolving into multiple stages of 'Answers' branded
communities and forums. Today those 'Answer' forums which is outsourced
support are only a minor feed, when escalation is necessary, to the
in-house support database vehicle.

Today, MSFT employe presence is more likely to be found on Redddit and
Twitter and Insider Program feedback.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 2/27/2022 11:01 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 2/27/2022 2:09 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>> Mayayana wrote:
>>> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>>>
>>> | That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
>>> |
>>>
>>>    Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
>>> convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
>>> a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
>>> court case then his company wins by default when you
>>> don't show up.
>>>
>>>
>> Wrong interpretation.
>> Every registered voter should vote.
>>   - but it wasn't really about elections per se.
>> Election ballots don't have line items for Windows 10 or 11.
>> If they did, that would also be and OT item.
>>
>
> I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might read some of the posts in these newsgroups.  If not, shame on them...

That's what the Feedback Hub is for in Windows 10 or Windows 11.
That's the comms channel, and it's one way.

Bug reports, will eventually be vectored to a developer.

Feature requests, will go to someone else.

If you make a bug report which is a feature request, most
organizations will simply reclassify it and file it.

This means that it is pretty well impossible to taunt a developer :-)

Paul

Mayayana wrote:
> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>
> | I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might read
> | some of the posts in these newsgroups. If not, shame on them...
>
> They started their web forums specifically to shut down
> this kind of unmoderated talk. In their online forums you
> can win "medal" icons to adorn your posts if you praise
> MS products. For years now we've had visiting envoys such
> as Winston, Paul Clement, and others whose names I've
> forgotten, who hang around here in the boondocks, motivated
> only by their own religious devotion, trying
> to convert the savages. I expect that's as close as you're
> going to get to the idea of MS being interested.
>
> I think that Winston is partially right about that, at least: MS
> don't have any interest in a marketing focus group composed of
> aging cranks who are no longer supporting the party line and
> don't work as IT people. Back in the heyday, many of the people
> here would have been corporate IT people, and being an MS MVP
> was a professional qualification. People actually paid to get
> certifications from MS. There was money to be made in that.
>
> The MS customer is also not young. It's corporate. At
> this point it's almost exclusively corporate. Younger people
> I know (Millennials) all switched to Macs. They didn't want
> to have learn about things like anti-virus and thought that
> Macs were protected by Steve Jobs's magical powers. Go into
> any wifi coffee shop. Who do you see? Not college students
> wielding Dell laptops but rather a field of silver laptop covers,
> winking back at you.
> Older people? I have a brother with a large business where he
> has to deal with lots of office-type docs from lots of sources. He
> used to maintain Windows and Mac computers to accommodate
> everyone. He now only needs Macs. Do MS care? Of course
> they hope to pick some pockets with their app store. They'd
> like to sell more overpriced Surface tablets. But their customer
> has always been corporate. The general public are just an
> unpaid beta testing army. The trouble with something like
> a Surface is that it's the price of a high-end computer with
> none of the ergonomics. MS have always made the best tablets
> for functionality. A full Windows OS. But if someone wants to
> really use a computer, why in the world would they do it on
> a Lilliputian, swipey tablet? I'm sitting in front of a real keyboard,
> a trackball, and a 27" monitor.
>
>
>
> Lol...you must have me confused with others getting 'badges' for online
forum contributions, Insider program, or MSFT branded avenues.

Actually online forums count very little for Mvp awarding - a
diminishing return over at least the last 5 yrs.
Nobody paid MSFT to receive an MVP award.

Your reply only continues to prove there will always be, in nttp groups,
Answers, and all social media arenas those who opine on what they think
they know skewing commentary expecting it to be believed as valid.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"...w�񧱤�" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote

| > Lol...you must have me confused with others getting 'badges' for online
| forum contributions, Insider program, or MSFT branded avenues.
| | Actually online forums count very little for Mvp awarding - a
| diminishing return over at least the last 5 yrs.
| Nobody paid MSFT to receive an MVP award.
| | Your reply only continues to prove there will always be, in nttp groups,
| Answers, and all social media arenas those who opine on what they think
| they know skewing commentary expecting it to be believed as valid.
|

You mixed up what I said. MVP status was connected with
being helpful in newsgroups, as I understand it. The current
Web forum is a moderated venue where people can get
"medal" awards.

I never said anyone paid for MVP status. Rather, people
paid to take classes to get certified by MS in various things.
Nothing to do with MVPs.

I accuse you of nothing other than being a Microsoft
shill, probably willingly. I don't accuse all MVPs of that. There
used to be many who participated on a daily basis. There
were several just in the VB groups. Randy Birch. Karl
Peterson. Michael Kaplan. Something Williams. And no doubt
several I'm forgetting. Few were Microsoft shills. Paul Clement
is one of two who come to mind. (I forget the other name.)
He spent years in the VB6 group trying to convinvce us that
we had to move to .Net because VB6 was kaput. (15-odd
years later I'm still using VB6 and it's still arguably the most
widely supported language for Windows, running on virtually
all existing Windows computers with no support files needed,
and a pre-installed runtime of 1 MB, vs 1/2 GB or so for .Net.)

Mayayana wrote:
> "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote
>
> | > Lol...you must have me confused with others getting 'badges' for online
> | forum contributions, Insider program, or MSFT branded avenues.
> |
> | Actually online forums count very little for Mvp awarding - a
> | diminishing return over at least the last 5 yrs.
> | Nobody paid MSFT to receive an MVP award.
> |
> | Your reply only continues to prove there will always be, in nttp groups,
> | Answers, and all social media arenas those who opine on what they think
> | they know skewing commentary expecting it to be believed as valid.
> |
>
> You mixed up what I said. MVP status was connected with
> being helpful in newsgroups, as I understand it. The current
> Web forum is a moderated venue where people can get
> "medal" awards.
>
> I never said anyone paid for MVP status. Rather, people
> paid to take classes to get certified by MS in various things.
> Nothing to do with MVPs.
>
> I accuse you of nothing other than being a Microsoft
> shill, probably willingly. I don't accuse all MVPs of that. There
> used to be many who participated on a daily basis. There
> were several just in the VB groups. Randy Birch. Karl
> Peterson. Michael Kaplan. Something Williams. And no doubt
> several I'm forgetting. Few were Microsoft shills. Paul Clement
> is one of two who come to mind. (I forget the other name.)
> He spent years in the VB6 group trying to convinvce us that
> we had to move to .Net because VB6 was kaput. (15-odd
> years later I'm still using VB6 and it's still arguably the most
> widely supported language for Windows, running on virtually
> all existing Windows computers with no support files needed,
> and a pre-installed runtime of 1 MB, vs 1/2 GB or so for .Net.)
>
>
MVP was never really a professional qualification. Most businesses
rarely saw it as a worthy line item on the employee record.
Don't misinterpret the above, that value was often seen by the awardee
as valuable, but for most it did not equate to any additional prestige
or employee benefit.

Certification was an entirely separate issue. In the past different
branding names/areas. Some of value, others just a dust collecting
shingle for the circular file.

If you look at any of my prior posts for the last 26 years, you'll be
hard pressed to find anything shilled or encouraged to buy or use MSFT
products.
- I did say in this group(win10)a few years that most using Win7
regardless of there position or dislike of Windows 8/8.1/10 will
eventually be using Windows 10 - afaics that has happened.
- we do agree on one point Windows will eventually follow the Office
platform - Subscription based like Microsoft 365 with different levels
across consumers, SMB, and Enterprise.

As mentioned before there will alway be those who opine on what they
think they know skewing commentary expecting it to be believed as valid.

Another example of an inability of staying focused on topic(which
incidentally was the whole purpose of my earlier reply that you chose to
digress)
- do you really believe anyone cares about your use of VB6, using a
trackball, etc. Just more OT waste of space.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

Paul wrote:
> On 2/27/2022 11:01 PM, Bill wrote:
>> On 2/27/2022 2:09 PM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
>>> Mayayana wrote:
>>>> "Bill" <nonegiven@att.net> wrote
>>>>
>>>> | That may be true in elections too, but I still vote.
>>>> |
>>>>
>>>>    Well said. But Winston figures it's still worth trying to
>>>> convince you that your vote doesn't count. Or maybe
>>>> a more apt metaphor: If he can convince you there's no
>>>> court case then his company wins by default when you
>>>> don't show up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Wrong interpretation.
>>> Every registered voter should vote.
>>>   - but it wasn't really about elections per se.
>>> Election ballots don't have line items for Windows 10 or 11.
>>> If they did, that would also be and OT item.
>>>
>>
>> I am hopeful that there is at least one employee from MS who might
>> read some of the posts in these newsgroups.  If not, shame on them...
>
> That's what the Feedback Hub is for in Windows 10 or Windows 11.
> That's the comms channel, and it's one way.
>
> Bug reports, will eventually be vectored to a developer.
>
> Feature requests, will go to someone else.
>
> If you make a bug report which is a feature request, most
> organizations will simply reclassify it and file it.
>
> This means that it is pretty well impossible to taunt a developer :-)
>
>    Paul
>
That's mostly correct.
Bug reports that have indications of quantity, reproduction and repeated
validation eventually reach the desks of multiple developers.

The multiple sources of the feedback(Hub, social media, phone-home error
reporting) is quantified in a tracking database(massive), filtered, and
prioritized for subsequent investigation and when necessary further
action consistent with current business plan expense, resources, and
product objectives.
- think of it as an inverse pyramid with branches to other inverse
pyramids.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp 2007-2021

"...w�񧱤�" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote | - do you really believe anyone
cares about your use of VB6, using a
| trackball, etc. Just more OT waste of space.
|

It sounds like you need to lay off the weed, Winston.
Once again you have my statements jumbled around and
mixed together. The VB6 comment was about MVPs. The
trackball/keyboard/27" monitor comment was about the
bad decision of Microsoft trying to enter the tablet market
with full-powered tablets. Neither comment was about me
and my preferences.

It's great to have real Windows
instead of Android, but then, it's a little crappy tablet that's
hard to use for anything but swiping. So having full Windows
confers no benefit.

Thus, MS tablet offerings, like their phone offerings, never
took off.

Mayayana wrote:
> "...w¡ñ§±¤ñ" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote | - do you really believe anyone
> cares about your use of VB6, using a
> | trackball, etc. Just more OT waste of space.
> |
>
> It sounds like you need to lay off the weed, Winston.
> Once again you have my statements jumbled around and
> mixed together. The VB6 comment was about MVPs. The
> trackball/keyboard/27" monitor comment was about the
> bad decision of Microsoft trying to enter the tablet market
> with full-powered tablets. Neither comment was about me
> and my preferences.
>
> It's great to have real Windows
> instead of Android, but then, it's a little crappy tablet that's
> hard to use for anything but swiping. So having full Windows
> confers no benefit.
>
> Thus, MS tablet offerings, like their phone offerings, never
> took off.
>
>
>
"years later I'm still using VB6 and it's still arguably the most
widely supported language for Windows,'
-No one cares.

Typical OT troll mentality.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"NewsKrawler" <newskrawl@krawl.org> wrote in message
news:suoh96$3fqbd$1@paganini.bofh.team...
> https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940517/windows-11-pro-require-microsoft-account-internet-connection
> Windows 11 Pro will soon require a Microsoft Account
>
> You'll also need an internet connection during setup.
>
> Microsoft says it's planning to update Windows 11 Pro so it will require
> an
> internet connection and a Microsoft Account during the initial setup
> phase.
> The changes will mirror the same requirements Microsoft originally added
> to
> Windows 11 Home last year, meaning you won't be able to avoid Microsoft
> Accounts by creating a local user account during setup.
>
> Microsoft has been increasingly pushing Windows users to use a Microsoft
> Account since Windows 10, and this new change to Windows 11 Pro won't sit
> well with many hoping to avoid Microsoft's data and telemetry gathering in
> Windows.
>
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/02/new-preview-build-adds-microsoft-account-requirement-to-windows-11-pro/
> You'll need a Microsoft account to set up future versions of Windows 11
> Pro
>
> Tucked away toward the bottom of the changelog is one unwelcome addition:
> like the Home edition of Windows 11, the Pro version will now require an
> Internet connection and a Microsoft account during setup. In the current
> version of Windows 11, you could still create a local user account during
> setup by not connecting your PC to the Internet-something that also worked
> in the Home version of Windows 10 but was removed in 11. That workaround
> will no longer be available in either edition going forward, barring a
> change in Microsoft's plans.

To get this thread somewhat back on track ...... I have just installed
Windows 11 on a laptop that has an i3 (M330) CPU, 4GB Ram with a local
account & no internet connection during the install.
No Windows authorisation though.
How? By following various tutorials on the internet.
Why? Just to see if it was possible.

--
Regards
wasbit

wasbit wrote:

> I have just installed Windows 11 on a laptop that has an i3 (M330) CPU, 4GB Ram
> with a local account & no internet connection during the install.

Today's version isn't the version that forces you to use a microsoft account.

Though I've seen Britec showing a registry hack on the insider release to skirt
around it.

On 3/1/2022 4:34 AM, wasbit wrote:
> "NewsKrawler" <newskrawl@krawl.org> wrote in message news:suoh96$3fqbd$1@paganini.bofh.team...
>> https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940517/windows-11-pro-require-microsoft-account-internet-connection
>> Windows 11 Pro will soon require a Microsoft Account
>>
>> You'll also need an internet connection during setup.
>>
>> Microsoft says it's planning to update Windows 11 Pro so it will require an
>> internet connection and a Microsoft Account during the initial setup phase.
>> The changes will mirror the same requirements Microsoft originally added to
>> Windows 11 Home last year, meaning you won't be able to avoid Microsoft
>> Accounts by creating a local user account during setup.
>>
>> Microsoft has been increasingly pushing Windows users to use a Microsoft
>> Account since Windows 10, and this new change to Windows 11 Pro won't sit
>> well with many hoping to avoid Microsoft's data and telemetry gathering in
>> Windows.
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/02/new-preview-build-adds-microsoft-account-requirement-to-windows-11-pro/
>> You'll need a Microsoft account to set up future versions of Windows 11 Pro
>>
>> Tucked away toward the bottom of the changelog is one unwelcome addition:
>> like the Home edition of Windows 11, the Pro version will now require an
>> Internet connection and a Microsoft account during setup. In the current
>> version of Windows 11, you could still create a local user account during
>> setup by not connecting your PC to the Internet-something that also worked
>> in the Home version of Windows 10 but was removed in 11. That workaround
>> will no longer be available in either edition going forward, barring a
>> change in Microsoft's plans.
>
> To get this thread somewhat back on track ...... I have just installed Windows 11 on a laptop that has an i3 (M330) CPU, 4GB Ram with a local account & no internet connection during the install.
> No Windows authorisation though.
> How? By following various tutorials on the internet.
> Why? Just to see if it was possible.
>

Does it have a future ?

Look at the right click File Explorer menu.

Look at *Notepad*.

Let's "test" W11 Notepad, on a random Tuesday.

Does the insertion point stay around for more than 30 seconds ?

Does the machine respond in a "stable" fashion when you load a 500MB text file ?
For example, my cursor would not descend to the Task Bar, while that
Notepad was open. Eventually, my mouse was able to descend all the
way to the bottom of the screen again. Is that a denial of service
attack by the machines own software ???

Clicking in the Notepad window right now, just moving the insertion
point on a 4.4GHz processor, takes about 20 seconds.

Now, how can you release a piece of iTrash like that, after
"fixing" Notepad so it actually works (a working Find/Replace!),
in Windows 10 ?

Does the OS have a future, if it has no quality control ?

There are students in trade school who have written better
text editing widgets.

I would not accept garbage like this, if I was working
in the QA department at my former employer. Why ? Because
you had an implementation which was *miles* ahead, and
you did all this for "rounded corners" ??? FFS.

No matter what your business model, whether it's WaaS
or SaaS Or PaaS, you at least have to put the effort into it.

I'm a hardware guy. You can't have hardware, without software.
That's how it works. With no software, it's a hood ornament.

Paul

On 2022-03-01 7:25 a.m., Paul wrote:
> On 3/1/2022 4:34 AM, wasbit wrote:
>> "NewsKrawler" <newskrawl@krawl.org> wrote in message
>> news:suoh96$3fqbd$1@paganini.bofh.team...
>>> https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940517/windows-11-pro-require-microsoft-account-internet-connection
>>>
>>> Windows 11 Pro will soon require a Microsoft Account
>>>
>>> You'll also need an internet connection during setup.
>>>
>>> Microsoft says it's planning to update Windows 11 Pro so it will
>>> require an
>>> internet connection and a Microsoft Account during the initial setup
>>> phase.
>>> The changes will mirror the same requirements Microsoft originally
>>> added to
>>> Windows 11 Home last year, meaning you won't be able to avoid Microsoft
>>> Accounts by creating a local user account during setup.
>>>
>>> Microsoft has been increasingly pushing Windows users to use a Microsoft
>>> Account since Windows 10, and this new change to Windows 11 Pro won't
>>> sit
>>> well with many hoping to avoid Microsoft's data and telemetry
>>> gathering in
>>> Windows.
>>>
>>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/02/new-preview-build-adds-microsoft-account-requirement-to-windows-11-pro/
>>>
>>> You'll need a Microsoft account to set up future versions of Windows
>>> 11 Pro
>>>
>>> Tucked away toward the bottom of the changelog is one unwelcome
>>> addition:
>>> like the Home edition of Windows 11, the Pro version will now require an
>>> Internet connection and a Microsoft account during setup. In the current
>>> version of Windows 11, you could still create a local user account
>>> during
>>> setup by not connecting your PC to the Internet-something that also
>>> worked
>>> in the Home version of Windows 10 but was removed in 11. That workaround
>>> will no longer be available in either edition going forward, barring a
>>> change in Microsoft's plans.
>>
>> To get this thread somewhat back on track ...... I have just installed
>> Windows 11 on a laptop that has an i3 (M330) CPU, 4GB Ram with a local
>> account & no internet connection during the install.
>> No Windows authorisation though.
>> How? By following various tutorials on the internet.
>> Why? Just to see if it was possible.
>>
>
> Does it have a future ?
>
> Look at the right click File Explorer menu.
>
> Look at *Notepad*.
>
> Let's "test" W11 Notepad, on a random Tuesday.
>
> Does the insertion point stay around for more than 30 seconds ?
>
> Does the machine respond in a "stable" fashion when you load a 500MB
> text file ?
> For example, my cursor would not descend to the Task Bar, while that
> Notepad was open. Eventually, my mouse was able to descend all the
> way to the bottom of the screen again. Is that a denial of service
> attack by the machines own software ???
>
> Clicking in the Notepad window right now, just moving the insertion
> point on a 4.4GHz processor, takes about 20 seconds.
>
> Now, how can you release a piece of iTrash like that, after
> "fixing" Notepad so it actually works (a working Find/Replace!),
> in Windows 10 ?
>
> Does the OS have a future, if it has no quality control ?
>
> There are students in trade school who have written better
> text editing widgets.
>
> I would not accept garbage like this, if I was working
> in the QA department at my former employer. Why ? Because
> you had an implementation which was *miles* ahead, and
> you did all this for "rounded corners" ??? FFS.
>
> No matter what your business model, whether it's WaaS
> or SaaS Or PaaS, you at least have to put the effort into it.
>
> I'm a hardware guy. You can't have hardware, without software.
> That's how it works. With no software, it's a hood ornament.
>
>    Paul

How about Notepad ++?
I have it on my system and use it once in a while, but it seems a
little overwhelming with features at times.

Rene

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:43:56 -0600, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>On 2022-03-01 7:25 a.m., Paul wrote:
>> On 3/1/2022 4:34 AM, wasbit wrote:
>>> "NewsKrawler" <newskrawl@krawl.org> wrote in message
>>> news:suoh96$3fqbd$1@paganini.bofh.team...
>>>> https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940517/windows-11-pro-require-microsoft-account-internet-connection
>>>>
>>>> Windows 11 Pro will soon require a Microsoft Account
>>>>
>>>> You'll also need an internet connection during setup.
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft says it's planning to update Windows 11 Pro so it will
>>>> require an
>>>> internet connection and a Microsoft Account during the initial setup
>>>> phase.
>>>> The changes will mirror the same requirements Microsoft originally
>>>> added to
>>>> Windows 11 Home last year, meaning you won't be able to avoid Microsoft
>>>> Accounts by creating a local user account during setup.
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft has been increasingly pushing Windows users to use a Microsoft
>>>> Account since Windows 10, and this new change to Windows 11 Pro won't
>>>> sit
>>>> well with many hoping to avoid Microsoft's data and telemetry
>>>> gathering in
>>>> Windows.
>>>>
>>>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/02/new-preview-build-adds-microsoft-account-requirement-to-windows-11-pro/
>>>>
>>>> You'll need a Microsoft account to set up future versions of Windows
>>>> 11 Pro
>>>>
>>>> Tucked away toward the bottom of the changelog is one unwelcome
>>>> addition:
>>>> like the Home edition of Windows 11, the Pro version will now require an
>>>> Internet connection and a Microsoft account during setup. In the current
>>>> version of Windows 11, you could still create a local user account
>>>> during
>>>> setup by not connecting your PC to the Internet-something that also
>>>> worked
>>>> in the Home version of Windows 10 but was removed in 11. That workaround
>>>> will no longer be available in either edition going forward, barring a
>>>> change in Microsoft's plans.
>>>
>>> To get this thread somewhat back on track ...... I have just installed
>>> Windows 11 on a laptop that has an i3 (M330) CPU, 4GB Ram with a local
>>> account & no internet connection during the install.
>>> No Windows authorisation though.
>>> How? By following various tutorials on the internet.
>>> Why? Just to see if it was possible.
>>>
>>
>> Does it have a future ?
>>
>> Look at the right click File Explorer menu.
>>
>> Look at *Notepad*.
>>
>> Let's "test" W11 Notepad, on a random Tuesday.
>>
>> Does the insertion point stay around for more than 30 seconds ?
>>
>> Does the machine respond in a "stable" fashion when you load a 500MB
>> text file ?
>> For example, my cursor would not descend to the Task Bar, while that
>> Notepad was open. Eventually, my mouse was able to descend all the
>> way to the bottom of the screen again. Is that a denial of service
>> attack by the machines own software ???
>>
>> Clicking in the Notepad window right now, just moving the insertion
>> point on a 4.4GHz processor, takes about 20 seconds.
>>
>> Now, how can you release a piece of iTrash like that, after
>> "fixing" Notepad so it actually works (a working Find/Replace!),
>> in Windows 10 ?
>>
>> Does the OS have a future, if it has no quality control ?
>>
>> There are students in trade school who have written better
>> text editing widgets.
>>
>> I would not accept garbage like this, if I was working
>> in the QA department at my former employer. Why ? Because
>> you had an implementation which was *miles* ahead, and
>> you did all this for "rounded corners" ??? FFS.
>>
>> No matter what your business model, whether it's WaaS
>> or SaaS Or PaaS, you at least have to put the effort into it.
>>
>> I'm a hardware guy. You can't have hardware, without software.
>> That's how it works. With no software, it's a hood ornament.
>>
>>    Paul
>
>How about Notepad ++?
> I have it on my system and use it once in a while, but it seems a
>little overwhelming with features at times.

Same for me. I rarely need or use its features.