This is an adult question, not of whether M$ "will" do it; but of whether
Microsoft even "can" permanently lock up your investment in PC hardware
(now that they're forcing a login in order to access your operating system).

Can they?
--
Certainly Apple can and does if you don't log into iOS for two years.
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple _forces_ a log in!
<https://i.postimg.cc/g008YhxP/appleid02.jpg> Apple _forces_ a lock out!
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg> Apple _disables_ your acct!
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg> Apple _locks_ you out!
<https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg> Apple won't let you back in!

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> <https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg> Apple won't let you back in!

It's traditional on a login screen, to NOT give any clues why the login was
unsuccessful, don't want to help the bad guys know the difference between
non-existent/locked-out/wrong-password etc.

Andy Burns wrote:

>> <https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg> Apple won't let you back in!
>
> It's traditional on a login screen, to NOT give any clues why the login was
> unsuccessful, don't want to help the bad guys know the difference between
> non-existent/locked-out/wrong-password etc.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for trying to advise me but I already know why Apple locked me out.
I was _testing_ what Apple would do if I logged in using VPN.
(Just like I've tested what Google GMail does when you log in on VPN.)

The question here is whether Microsoft _can_ do the same things to you.
Now that Microsoft is _forcing_ a login/password into their servers.

Rest assured I _know_ why Apple locked me out (as I was testing what they'd
do when I used VPN, from Russia no less!) when forced to _re_ validate my
identity.

Bear in mind there's _nothing_ wrong with my login.
Nothing wrong with my password.

Apple knows this.
Apple let's me use the App Store every day.
I even loaded the latest operating system just a week ago.

There's nothing wrong with my login nor with my password.
And that's my point.

For whatever reason, Apple wants me to _re_ validate who I am.
Every single day.

*Can Microsoft do the same thing?*
That.

That is the question.

This is an _important_ question about Microsoft - not about Apple.
The only reason for bringing up Apple is that Apple _does_ lock you out.

Hence the question is whether Microsoft can.

Given this is a question about Microsoft, please don't get me wrong as I am
rather intelligent, as are you, but it's not obvious my question is about
the _power_ that Microsoft attains when they now _force_ a login.

Apple forces the same login.
Worse - Apple forces a periodic _validation_ of your login.
Even worse, if you refuse to _re_ validate - Apple cripples your device!

Don't get me wrong as I'm not complaining about Apple. I was _testing_ Apple
by not logging into my iPad for four years (even as I used it daily).

Every day for the latter two years, Apple nagged me to "re" verify.
Not verify. But _re_ verify. (as in verify again)

Bear in mind the facts that Apple lets me install apps on the App Store
which requires a valid login, so Apple has no problem with my login.

Bear in mind Apple lets me delete Siri recordings so Apple has no problem
collecting my Siri recordings (and allowing me to delete collected data).

Bear in mind Apple even let me install the latest new operating system.

So there is _nothing_ wrong with the forced login account, of itself.
What's "wrong" is that for whatever reason, Apple wants me to _re_ verify.

I refuse to _re_ verify (as a test of what Apple would do).
I found out that Apple has the power to permanently lock up your device.

Sure, they probably did that because I used a VPN to _re_ verify.
But that isn't my point as I was _testing_ what Apple would do.

The fact is Apple did it. [See proof in sig where you know I'm intelligent.]
Apple unilaterally permanently _locked_ me out of my own hardware.

OK. No big deal. That's what I get for _testing_ what Apple will do.
I'm not complaining.

What I'm _asking_ here is whether Microsoft "can" do the same thing to you?
Can they?
--
Want proof?
1. Apple "ID Verification" prompts come up ten, twenty or more times a day.
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg>
2. Apple "Sign-in to iCloud" prompts come up a dozen or more times a day.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y9kkj19v/appleid12.jpg>
3. Apple won't let you sign in even with the _correct_ login & password.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zSvshQf/appleid04.jpg>
4. The Apple web site is so poorly designed it doesn't even tell you why.
<https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg>
5. Eventually, as it did with one of my iPads already, Apple destroys it.
<https://i.postimg.cc/g008YhxP/appleid02.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>
6. On my 2nd iPad, the Apple apps stop working (but everything else works!)
<https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg>
7. Every single day, many times a day, you're confronted with tracking crap
such as this "Some account services require you to sign in again"
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>
8. Interestingly, you can update your iOS (which I almost never do) as shown
here where I updated this week from iOS 13 to iOS 15 (and it let me).
<https://i.postimg.cc/nLjqk2HD/osupdate03.jpg>
9. And you can wipe out your Siri recordings (due to the recent zero-day).
<https://i.postimg.cc/sfZ0XP71/osupdate02.jpg>
10. Yet Apple tracking servers still require "Apple ID Verification"
<https://i.postimg.cc/gj0r2cBP/osupdate01.jpg>
11. And, you can install an app, but if you delete it, you can't re-install.
<https://i.postimg.cc/bJPKDSZ1/osupdate04.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR5mZ287/appleid07.jpg>
12. In the end, if you attempt that forced validation on VPN, Apple
unilaterally destroys your investment by locking you out of it forever!
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>
13. All because Apple tracking servers _require_ periodic ID verification.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>

In article <suts0h$rdj$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

> Rest assured I _know_ why Apple locked me out (as I was testing what they'd
> do when I used VPN, from Russia no less!) when forced to _re_ validate my
> identity.

bullshit you were testing, but regardless, you locked yourself out by
your own actions and want to blame others.

the same would happen if you tried to connect to google, banks and many
other companies from a russia vpn, or even a local vpn. some companies
take security very seriously.

> Bear in mind there's _nothing_ wrong with my login.
> Nothing wrong with my password.

except for it being disposable and you don't remember it, which you
readily admit.

On 2022-02-20 11:58 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/SKGfmgnK/appleid05.jpg> Apple won't let you
>>> back in!
>>
>> It's traditional on a login screen, to NOT give any clues why the
>> login was unsuccessful, don't want to help the bad guys know the
>> difference between non-existent/locked-out/wrong-password etc.
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Thanks for trying to advise me but I already know why Apple locked me out.
> I was _testing_ what Apple would do if I logged in using VPN.
> (Just like I've tested what Google GMail does when you log in on VPN.)

If Apple merely locked you out because you were using a VPN, that's
quite shocking but it is probably the result of them expecting that you
would log on from one location and suddenly finding it odd that you're
logging in from another at a significant distance from the first. If
they know you to be a person living in Chicago, for instance, then they
would find it abnormal for you to suddenly be logging in from Miami. I
imagine that you set the VPN for a different city, of course. It's
hypersensitive but I imagine that a lot of users would find it
understandable as a security measure.

> The question here is whether Microsoft _can_ do the same things to you.
> Now that Microsoft is _forcing_ a login/password into their servers.

They can, but they probably won't since Windows is generally the default
operating system for business users and these people are expected to
travel and be in different locations at different times.

> Rest assured I _know_ why Apple locked me out (as I was testing what they'd
> do when I used VPN, from Russia no less!) when forced to _re_ validate my
> identity.
>
> Bear in mind there's _nothing_ wrong with my login.
> Nothing wrong with my password.
>
> Apple knows this.
> Apple let's me use the App Store every day.
> I even loaded the latest operating system just a week ago.
>
> There's nothing wrong with my login nor with my password.
> And that's my point.
>
> For whatever reason, Apple wants me to _re_ validate who I am. Every
> single day.

Yes, because they want to make sure that the reason you're logging in
from a significant distance from your general location is because you've
traveled, not because your hardware has been stolen or your credentials
hacked by someone living on the other side of the world. It's a very
understandable situation and frankly, I applaud them for being careful.
Once you're logged in, I imagine you didn't face any further issues.

> *Can Microsoft do the same thing?*
> That.
>
> That is the question.
>
> This is an _important_ question about Microsoft - not about Apple.
> The only reason for bringing up Apple is that Apple _does_ lock you out.
>
> Hence the question is whether Microsoft can.
>
> Given this is a question about Microsoft, please don't get me wrong as I am
> rather intelligent, as are you, but it's not obvious my question is about
> the _power_ that Microsoft attains when they now _force_ a login.
>
> Apple forces the same login.
> Worse - Apple forces a periodic _validation_ of your login.
> Even worse, if you refuse to _re_ validate - Apple cripples your device!

They might do that on an iPhone but they're not likely to do that on a
Mac onto which you can easily just reinstall a separate OS or reinstall
MacOS if ever you no longer have the credentials for the original user.

> Don't get me wrong as I'm not complaining about Apple. I was _testing_
> Apple
> by not logging into my iPad for four years (even as I used it daily).
>
> Every day for the latter two years, Apple nagged me to "re" verify.
> Not verify. But _re_ verify. (as in verify again)
>
> Bear in mind the facts that Apple lets me install apps on the App Store
> which requires a valid login, so Apple has no problem with my login.
>
> Bear in mind Apple lets me delete Siri recordings so Apple has no problem
> collecting my Siri recordings (and allowing me to delete collected data).
>
> Bear in mind Apple even let me install the latest new operating system.
>
> So there is _nothing_ wrong with the forced login account, of itself.
> What's "wrong" is that for whatever reason, Apple wants me to _re_ verify.
>
> I refuse to _re_ verify (as a test of what Apple would do).
> I found out that Apple has the power to permanently lock up your device.
>
> Sure, they probably did that because I used a VPN to _re_ verify.
> But that isn't my point as I was _testing_ what Apple would do.
>
> The fact is Apple did it. [See proof in sig where you know I'm
> intelligent.]
> Apple unilaterally permanently _locked_ me out of my own hardware.
>
> OK. No big deal. That's what I get for _testing_ what Apple will do.
> I'm not complaining.
>
> What I'm _asking_ here is whether Microsoft "can" do the same thing to you?
> Can they?

Of course they can but they probably won't. You do make a good case for
why local accounts should be prioritized over cloud ones like what Apple
and Microsoft are both pushing now though. The problem is that only
Linux is still going the local route whereas everyone else is saying
that cloud should be the default. There are tons of advantages to using
the cloud approach since data can easily be migrated and synced from one
device to another but it is also clearly less advantageous in regards to
who truly controls the device or even your data.

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-20 12:09 p.m., nospam wrote:
> In article <suts0h$rdj$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
> <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Rest assured I _know_ why Apple locked me out (as I was testing what they'd
>> do when I used VPN, from Russia no less!) when forced to _re_ validate my
>> identity.
>
> bullshit you were testing, but regardless, you locked yourself out by
> your own actions and want to blame others.
>
> the same would happen if you tried to connect to google, banks and many
> other companies from a russia vpn, or even a local vpn. some companies
> take security very seriously.

Agreed here. In fact, I would dare to say that he didn't simply change
from one location to another through the VPN as I stated previously but
that he went from one city to another and another and another until
Apple's security triggered his behaviour as suspicious. I had the same
kind happen to me using a VPN with sports service DAZN. I was curious as
to what content was available in each country so I tried Germany,
England, the United States and so on until the service flagged my
behaviour as suspicious and, like Apple, asked me to log in again from
my original Canadian location.

< snip >

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

rabidR04CH wrote:

> Agreed here.

The question in this thread isn't about Apple. It's about Microsoft.
*Can Microsoft now lock up your device if you refuse to re-validate?*

Even if we discuss Apple (which we don't need to do), nospam is wrong.
What nospam does is fabricate any excuse for what he _hates_ about Apple.

The fact is clear what Apple is trying to do (didn't you look at the pics?)
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>

What nospam say is bullshit because he is wrong about everything he said.
Look at the screenshot above. It's clear _exactly_ what Apple wants to do.

Besides...
This isn't about iKooks' endless fabrications in support of Apple anyway.

I don't care that Apple permanently locked up my iPads in the least.
What I _learned_ is what matters for the purpose of this thread.

*Because of the required login, Apple has the power to disable your PC!*

If Apple can do it (as Apple _does_ do it), why can't Microsoft?

> from one location to another through the VPN as I stated previously but
> that he went from one city to another and another and another until
> Apple's security triggered his behaviour as suspicious. I had the same
> kind happen to me using a VPN with sports service DAZN. I was curious as
> to what content was available in each country so I tried Germany,
> England, the United States and so on until the service flagged my
> behaviour as suspicious and, like Apple, asked me to log in again from
> my original Canadian location.

You didn't look at a _single_ screenshot as that is _not_ what happened.
Look at this screenshot again which shows _exactly_ what Apple is up to.
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>

Apple wants you to _periodically_ update all your settings with them.
And that's fine as I wanted to see what happens if you refuse that demand.

Just like Finland wanted to see what happens when they refused Russia's
demands and just like the Ukraine is going to find out refusing anew.
Remember, I don't care that Apple locked up the iPads, one by one.
What I care about for this thread is whether M$ can do the same thing.

Can they?
*Can Microsoft now lock up your device if you refuse to re-validate?*

rabidR04CH wrote:

> If Apple merely locked you out because you were using a VPN

<shakes head>

Look. This thread isn't asking about Apple - it's asking about M$.
*With the new login requirement, _can_ Microsoft do what Apple does?*

That is, Apple _requires_ you to periodically _validate_ your login.
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>

The VPN issue happens _later_ (didn't you look at _any_ of the pics)?
Besides, it doesn't matter why Apple unilaterally destroyed my iPad.

What matters is the question in this thread now that M$ forces the login.
*Can Microsoft also lock you out of your PC in Windows 11 or not?*

> quite shocking but it is probably the result of them expecting that you
> would log on from one location and suddenly finding it odd that you're
> logging in from another at a significant distance from the first.

It has _nothing_ to do with that.

Stop listening to the bullshit that nospam spews because he _hates_ Apple.
More specifically, nospam _hates_ what Apple is so he fabricates that crap.
He will defend Apple to the death by blaming the user for everything.

If you didn't look at the pictures, at least _look_ at this one shot.
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>
The fact is clear what Apple is trying to do!

But that doesn't matter because I don't care what Apple does to my iPads.
What I want to know in this thread is whether Microsoft can do that to me.

Can they?

> they know you to be a person living in Chicago, for instance, then they
> would find it abnormal for you to suddenly be logging in from Miami. I
> imagine that you set the VPN for a different city, of course. It's
> hypersensitive but I imagine that a lot of users would find it
> understandable as a security measure.

The VPN issue happened _two years_ after the original issues.
Didn't you _look_ at any of the screenshots?

Or do you only listen to nospam (who is a world class bullshitter).
That nospam will defend Apple to the death, no matter what.

Anyway, this isn't about Apple.
It's about Microsoft.

*Now that Microsoft requires a login, can they lock up your PC too?*

nospam wrote:

> the same would happen if you tried to connect to google, banks and many
> other companies from a russia vpn, or even a local vpn. some companies
> take security very seriously.

Wrong. Look at the pictures. You make up excuses for Apple that are garbage.
The VPN happens later. Way later. Years later in fact.

What happened can happen in Windows now that they _force_ a login.
1. Apple forced a login and I gave it to them
2. Two years go by and Apple forces a _re_ validation!
3. Two years later, Apple locks up the iPads

It's in the _unlock_ step _after_ two years that I used the VPN.
And I gave it the correct login and correct password (the shots prove that).

For whatever reason, Apple didn't unlock their permanent lockup.
I don't care. They're just iPads. I have plenty of them. Two are affected.
I still have a third.

That Apple does this isn't up for debate as it's a fact what Apple does.

The question is only whether Microsoft can do the same thing to its users.
Can they?

>> Bear in mind there's _nothing_ wrong with my login.
>> Nothing wrong with my password.
>
> except for it being disposable and you don't remember it, which you
> readily admit.

1. It's the correct login and password (which the pictures prove).
2. Besides, I'm still logged into the iCloud (I never logged out).
3. It's _Apple_ who requires the _re_ validation step.

Anyway, you _hate_ all facts about Apple so you are wasting our time.
You _despise_ what Apple does so much that you lie for Apple, nospam.

This thread isn't about Apple.
It's about whether or not Microsoft will do the sleazy things Apple does.

Now that Microsoft is forcing the requirement of a login on every user.

On 2022-02-20 3:37 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> rabidR04CH wrote:
>
>> Agreed here.
>
> The question in this thread isn't about Apple. It's about Microsoft.
> *Can Microsoft now lock up your device if you refuse to re-validate?*
>
> Even if we discuss Apple (which we don't need to do), nospam is wrong.
> What nospam does is fabricate any excuse for what he _hates_ about Apple.

It's pretty clear by now that nospam is indeed a liar who will say just
about anything to defend Apple, including trying to completely rewrite
history in Apple's favour.

> The fact is clear what Apple is trying to do (didn't you look at the pics?)
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>

The pics are worthless without context. You have to explain what you did
to get to that point and not just show a picture of the end result.

> What nospam say is bullshit because he is wrong about everything he said.
> Look at the screenshot above. It's clear _exactly_ what Apple wants to do.
>
> Besides... This isn't about iKooks' endless fabrications in support of
> Apple anyway.
>
> I don't care that Apple permanently locked up my iPads in the least.
> What I _learned_ is what matters for the purpose of this thread.
>
> *Because of the required login, Apple has the power to disable your PC!*
>
> If Apple can do it (as Apple _does_ do it), why can't Microsoft?

Since Windows machines, unlike Apple machines, make it fairly easy to
install something other than Windows, I doubt that they would ever set
any of them in such a way that they would be disabled merely because
Microsoft was unhappy about something you were doing. They might lock up
the OS, but not the hardware. Surface devices are another story.

>> from one location to another through the VPN as I stated previously
>> but that he went from one city to another and another and another
>> until Apple's security triggered his behaviour as suspicious. I had
>> the same kind happen to me using a VPN with sports service DAZN. I was
>> curious as to what content was available in each country so I tried
>> Germany, England, the United States and so on until the service
>> flagged my behaviour as suspicious and, like Apple, asked me to log in
>> again from my original Canadian location.
>
> You didn't look at a _single_ screenshot as that is _not_ what happened.

I looked at _all_ of the screenshots but you provided zero context as to
how you got to that result.

< snip >

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-20 3:44 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> rabidR04CH wrote:
>
>> If Apple merely locked you out because you were using a VPN
>
> <shakes head>
>
> Look. This thread isn't asking about Apple - it's asking about M$.
> *With the new login requirement, _can_ Microsoft do what Apple does?*
>
> That is, Apple _requires_ you to periodically _validate_ your login.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>
>
> The VPN issue happens _later_ (didn't you look at _any_ of the pics)?
> Besides, it doesn't matter why Apple unilaterally destroyed my iPad.
>
> What matters is the question in this thread now that M$ forces the login.
> *Can Microsoft also lock you out of your PC in Windows 11 or not?*

No. They can lock you out of _Windows_, but not the hardware.

>> quite shocking but it is probably the result of them expecting that
>> you would log on from one location and suddenly finding it odd that
>> you're logging in from another at a significant distance from the first.
>
> It has _nothing_ to do with that.
>
> Stop listening to the bullshit that nospam spews because he _hates_ Apple.
> More specifically, nospam _hates_ what Apple is so he fabricates that crap.
> He will defend Apple to the death by blaming the user for everything.
>
> If you didn't look at the pictures, at least _look_ at this one shot.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg>
> The fact is clear what Apple is trying to do!
>
> But that doesn't matter because I don't care what Apple does to my iPads.
> What I want to know in this thread is whether Microsoft can do that to me.
>
> Can they?

I don't think you're looking for an answer as much as to get people to
look at your worthless pics, all provided without context.

>> they know you to be a person living in Chicago, for instance, then
>> they would find it abnormal for you to suddenly be logging in from
>> Miami. I imagine that you set the VPN for a different city, of course.
>> It's hypersensitive but I imagine that a lot of users would find it
>> understandable as a security measure.
>
> The VPN issue happened _two years_ after the original issues.
> Didn't you _look_ at any of the screenshots?
>
> Or do you only listen to nospam (who is a world class bullshitter).
> That nospam will defend Apple to the death, no matter what.
>
> Anyway, this isn't about Apple. It's about Microsoft.
>
> *Now that Microsoft requires a login, can they lock up your PC too?*

How can you say that it's not about Apple when all you're doing is
complaining about Apple and then asking whether Microsoft will
potentially be as bad?

Seriously though, instead of spending so much money on hardware that you
purposely lock yourself out of, consider spending that money on the
psychiatric medication you've clearly run out of.

--
rabidR04CH
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

rabidR04CH wrote:

> The pics are worthless without context. You have to explain what you did
> to get to that point and not just show a picture of the end result.

You actually seem to be close to a normal person so I apologize for treating
you like I treat the iKooks (who drank the Apple Jim-Jones punch long ago).

The SUBJECT here is what matters as I don't need to prove to you that Apple
can (and does) lock you out of your own device, as you already know that.

Don't you?
The question here is an adult observation that if Apple can, why can't MS?f

>> If Apple can do it (as Apple _does_ do it), why can't Microsoft?
>
> Since Windows machines, unlike Apple machines, make it fairly easy to
> install something other than Windows, I doubt that they would ever set
> any of them in such a way that they would be disabled merely because
> Microsoft was unhappy about something you were doing.

The question here is whether MS can pull the same sleazy tricks as Apple?
Can they?

For example:
a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
c. Does substituting a new boot disk #1 on hardware #1 re-engage license #1?

> They might lock up
> the OS, but not the hardware. Surface devices are another story.

This is an adult observation that if Microsoft _tried_ to lock you out of
your own machine, they'd have to do it in a way that you couldn't subvert.

Like just installing a new boot drive.
But the adult question to ask is whether Microsoft could lock that up too?

For example, this is a logical related adult question to ask:

Can Microsoft prevent you from installing the Windows 11 you _already_ paid
for on that new boot drive?

> I looked at _all_ of the screenshots but you provided zero context as to
> how you got to that result.

What doesn't matter for this thread is _how_ I got to that result.
Suffice to say that nobody on the Apple ngs can get it out of that result.
But that doesn't matter to me because I was _testing_ what Apple would do.
I know more than any of those iKooks as a direct result of that test.

Apple _will_ force you to re-validate your login if you don't use it often.
Apple _will_ lock you out of your own hardware if they don't like your VPN.

That's just a fact that you need to know "can" (and does) happen.
The question here is whether MS can pull the same sleazy tricks as Apple?

Can they?

For example:
a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
c. Does substituting a new boot disk #1 on hardware #1 re-engage license #1?

nospam wrote:

>> The VPN happens later. Way later. Years later in fact.
>
> that doesn't matter. simply connecting with a vpn raises suspicions.

Clearly Apple permanently destroys your equipment on a mere whim.
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>
*What's to stop MS from destroying your PC like Apple does, on a mere whim?*
<https://i.postimg.cc/g008YhxP/appleid02.jpg>

Three _adult_ points, _without_ needing any Apple examples are...
1. If Microsoft now forces a login on we users
2. Then what's to stop Microsoft from locking us out of our own computers
3. Much like Google Gmail will if you don't _exactly_ follow _their_ rules?

An adult point _with_ Apple is...
A. If Apple can force you to re-verify yourself on a whim (which they do)
B. What's to stop Microsoft from forcing a re-verification on a similar whim
C. And, depending on your IP address alone, Microsoft will destroy your PC

Google does it...
Apple does it far worse than does Google (as they destroy the hardware!)
What's to stop MS from destroying your PC like Apple does, on a mere whim?

For example:
a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
c. Does substituting a new boot disk #2 on hardware #1 re-engage license #1?

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> The question here is whether MS can pull the same sleazy tricks as Apple?
> Can they?
>
> For example:
> a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
> b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
> c. Does substituting a new boot disk #1 on hardware #1 re-engage license #1?

I made a mistake on the numbering so I repeat the question being asked here:

a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
c. Does substituting _boot disk #2_ on hardware #1 re-engage license #1?

If yes, then Microsoft _can_ pull the same sleazy lockout trick as does Apple.

rabidR04CH wrote:

> People don't see it as a
> person merely trying to protect his IP address from attackers

The problem has _nothing_ to do with the VPN.
The VPN was only the last straw.
The problem started _years_ before the VPN happened.

Let me try to summarize, but only because it matters if MS can do this.

iPad #1 is fine:
a. Long ago, I set up my three iPads (one bought later than the first two).
b. On one iPad, which my wife uses, she does _everything_ Apple tells her.
c. That iPad (one of the older ones) stays inside the walled garden always.

iPad #2 is destroyed by Apple:
a. This was bought at the same time as was iPad #1
b. The difference being it is _not_ imprisoned in the walled garden
c. Apple unilaterally destroyed this iPad long ago

iPad #3 is in danger:
a. This was bought a few years _after_ the other two iPads
b. It's in danger of being destroyed by Apple
c. Notice Apple is constantly _forcing_ a "revalidation" step

If you need more information, let me know, but the main takaway is simple.
a. Stay locked in the walled garden, and Apple leaves you alone.
b. But Apple has never tested what happens when you leave the walled garden.

There's so much proof of that latter fact (do you ever connect an iPad to
Linux for example, which Apple says doens't even exist, in terms of
support)?

1. Apple doesn't like when you _refuse_ to leave the walled garden.
2. They hate it so much that they _force_ you back into the walled garden.
3. If you refuse that for about two years, Apple will _lock_ up your device.

Ask me how I know this.

rabidR04CH wrote:

> No. They can lock you out of _Windows_, but not the hardware.

That's what I always had thought.

a. You have boot disk #1 on PC hardware #1 and Windows 11 license #1
b. For whatever reason, Microsoft locks you out of Win11 license #1
c. Your only recourse is boot disk #2

The question isn't _will_ but _can_ MS lock you out of Win11 license #1
(even if you substituted boot disk #2)?

That's really the question.

On 2022-02-20 23:16, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> rabidR04CH wrote:
>
>> The pics are worthless without context. You have to explain what you
>> did to get to that point and not just show a picture of the end result.
>
> You actually seem to be close to a normal person so I apologize for
> treating
> you like I treat the iKooks (who drank the Apple Jim-Jones punch long ago).

Thanks. I assure you that I am not a zealot for anything. I use Windows
11, Linux and even Apple products. I tend to go for whatever's best for
my needs in any particular category. I am somewhat sympathetic to Apple
since they definitely produce some stellar stuff, especially as far as
portability goes, but I am not the type to defend it at all costs and
regardless of what they do.

> The SUBJECT here is what matters as I don't need to prove to you that Apple
> can (and does) lock you out of your own device, as you already know that.
>
> Don't you?
> The question here is an adult observation that if Apple can, why can't MS?f

I totally agree that Apple _can_ do so. Much of it has to do with the
fact that Apple assumes that you are buying their hardware to use their
operating system. You can use another system, but they tend to make you
jump through hoops to do so. As such, if they notice that there is odd
behaviour coming out a particular system, their security probably
assumes that it is stolen and will lock out the potential thief if he
refuses to verify that he indeed the authorized user of a particular
machine. That security assumes that the rightful owner of the hardware
would not want it to be used by anyone without them being compensated
for it first. I don't disagree with their approach here.

>>> If Apple can do it (as Apple _does_ do it), why can't Microsoft?
>>
>> Since Windows machines, unlike Apple machines, make it fairly easy to
>> install something other than Windows, I doubt that they would ever set
>> any of them in such a way that they would be disabled merely because
>> Microsoft was unhappy about something you were doing.
>
> The question here is whether MS can pull the same sleazy tricks as Apple?
> Can they?
>
> For example:
> a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
> b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
> c. Does substituting a new boot disk #1 on hardware #1 re-engage license
> #1?

Speaking as someone who _has_ been locked out of his Windows system
several times, I can say that Microsoft will do so. On this particular
machine which came with Windows 8.1, I eventually installed Windows 10
through the free upgrade and upgraded with a Pro license. Things
happened, as they always do, and I decided to install a clean version of
Windows 10 on it sometimes using the product key saved to the BIOS or
the Pro key, depending on the situation. On repeated occasions, Windows
would tell me that my license is not valid and that I would need to
purchase one. Clearly, that is annoying behaviour.

However, there are two possibilities to this: 1) Microsoft was expecting
me to send them the product key saved to the BIOS and I sent them
something different (confusion between the key I purchased and the one
bundled with the machine), 2) the product key was never actually saved
to the system despite it being entered upon installation.

Whatever the reason, the result is the same and that is why I am very
sympathetic to Linux as well since it doesn't bother me with licenses at
all.

>> They might lock up the OS, but not the hardware. Surface devices are
>> another story.
>
> This is an adult observation that if Microsoft _tried_ to lock you out of
> your own machine, they'd have to do it in a way that you couldn't subvert.
>
> Like just installing a new boot drive.
> But the adult question to ask is whether Microsoft could lock that up too?
>
> For example, this is a logical related adult question to ask:
>
> Can Microsoft prevent you from installing the Windows 11 you _already_ paid
> for on that new boot drive?

They can, if they decide to blacklist your product key while you are
installing. Generally, they don't do this and let you install, locking
you out of the features you paid for _post_ installation.

However, it should be noted that Windows product keys are saved to the
BIOS nowadays if you buy a pre-built machine so even if a purchased key
doesn't work, Windows will end up just using whatever it finds in the
BIOS. If it doesn't find it, there's a command to retrieve it and force
it to be used.

>> I looked at _all_ of the screenshots but you provided zero context as
>> to how you got to that result.
>
> What doesn't matter for this thread is _how_ I got to that result.
> Suffice to say that nobody on the Apple ngs can get it out of that result.
> But that doesn't matter to me because I was _testing_ what Apple would do.
> I know more than any of those iKooks as a direct result of that test.
>
> Apple _will_ force you to re-validate your login if you don't use it often.
> Apple _will_ lock you out of your own hardware if they don't like your VPN.
>
> That's just a fact that you need to know "can" (and does) happen.
> The question here is whether MS can pull the same sleazy tricks as Apple?
>
> Can they?
>
> For example:
> a. You have hardware setup #1 with boot disk #1 and Windows 11 license #1
> b. For whatever reason, Microsoft pulls the Apple sleazy lockout trick
> c. Does substituting a new boot disk #1 on hardware #1 re-engage license
> #1?

If they locked out the product key and blacklisted it, changing the boot
device won't help you in any way. If they merely locked you out because
the hardware changed post installation, you can reinstall with the same
product key and it will work.

--
rabidR04CH
MSI GT72 2QD on Linux Mint 20.3
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-20 23:46, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> rabidR04CH wrote:
>
>> People don't see it as a person merely trying to protect his IP
>> address from attackers
>
> The problem has _nothing_ to do with the VPN.
> The VPN was only the last straw.
> The problem started _years_ before the VPN happened.
>
> Let me try to summarize, but only because it matters if MS can do this.
>
> iPad #1 is fine:
> a. Long ago, I set up my three iPads (one bought later than the first two).
> b. On one iPad, which my wife uses, she does _everything_ Apple tells her.
> c. That iPad (one of the older ones) stays inside the walled garden always.

It obeys the government's rules so its social credit score is high.

> iPad #2 is destroyed by Apple:
> a. This was bought at the same time as was iPad #1
> b. The difference being it is _not_ imprisoned in the walled garden
> c. Apple unilaterally destroyed this iPad long ago

_How_ is it not imprisoned in the walled garden? What was done on it
that Apple found so reprehensible?

> iPad #3 is in danger:
> a. This was bought a few years _after_ the other two iPads
> b. It's in danger of being destroyed by Apple
> c. Notice Apple is constantly _forcing_ a "revalidation" step

_How_ is it in danger? What was done to it that a revalidation is necessary?

< snip >

--
rabidR04CH
MSI GT72 2QD on Linux Mint 20.3
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022-02-20 23:54, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> rabidR04CH wrote:
>
>> No. They can lock you out of _Windows_, but not the hardware.
>
> That's what I always had thought.
>
> a. You have boot disk #1 on PC hardware #1 and Windows 11 license #1
> b. For whatever reason, Microsoft locks you out of Win11 license #1
> c. Your only recourse is boot disk #2
>
> The question isn't _will_ but _can_ MS lock you out of Win11 license #1
> (even if you substituted boot disk #2)?
>
> That's really the question.

Microsoft _can_ blacklist a product key. If the product key itself is
blocked, you can still install Windows, obviously, but not activate it.

--
rabidR04CH
MSI GT72 2QD on Linux Mint 20.3
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

In article <o6MQJ.38323$OT%7.12316@fx07.iad>, rabidR04CH <rabid@ro4.ch>
wrote:

> Much of it has to do with the
> fact that Apple assumes that you are buying their hardware to use their
> operating system. You can use another system, but they tend to make you
> jump through hoops to do so.

false. apple even provides a utility to install windows, called boot
camp. they also fully support linux. they don't care what os someone
uses.

In article <%WCQJ.26103$U_B9.25592@fx20.iad>, rabidR04CH <rabid@r04.ch>
wrote:

> Since Windows machines, unlike Apple machines, make it fairly easy to
> install something other than Windows,

that is false. it's very easy to install mac os, windows or linux on a
mac.

apple even included boot camp, a utility to make installing windows
*very* easy.

linux is also not a problem.

On 2022-02-21 08:38, nospam wrote:
> In article <o6MQJ.38323$OT%7.12316@fx07.iad>, rabidR04CH <rabid@ro4.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> Much of it has to do with the
>> fact that Apple assumes that you are buying their hardware to use their
>> operating system. You can use another system, but they tend to make you
>> jump through hoops to do so.
>
> false. apple even provides a utility to install windows, called boot
> camp. they also fully support linux. they don't care what os someone
> uses.

You're still jumping through hoops since you're installing Windows
within the MacOS operating system rather than going straight to the
BIOS, setting it up to load a USB key containing the ISO and installing
it that way.

Admittedly, Boot Camp is actually a safer approach though if you're
trying to avoid losing data.

--
rabidR04CH
MSI GT72 2QD on Linux Mint 20.3
"But Peter and the apostles answered, 'We must obey God rather than
men.'" - Acts 5:29
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH

On 2022 Feb 20, rabidR04CH wrote
(in article <%WCQJ.26103$U_B9.25592@fx20.iad>):

> Since Windows machines, unlike Apple machines, make it fairly easy to
> install something other than Windows,

errr... a lot of Tuxers were up in arms about Secure Boot, certain that it
was a nefarious Redmond plot to prevent the easy use of Linux. See, for
example, https://techgenix.com/secure-boot-controversy-what-does-mean-it/

This means that MS has, in theory, had the ability to lock non-MS OSes out of
machines which first shipped with a MS OS since Win 8 shipped. They
haven’t. They could. It’d be remarkably stupid of them to try, but
Redmond’s done a lot of stupid things over the last 40 years. Personally I
doubt that even Monkey Boy Balmer would have tried it, and Sad Nad is a _lot_
smarter than the Monkey Boy.

Meanwhile Apple has shipped Boot Camp with the OS since 2006, or when they
went to Intel processors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_(software)
Boot Camp is designed with Windows in mind, and different versions of BC with
different versions of Windows. The current version, for instance, doesn’t
support Win 7, but can be forced into compliance with some driver issues;
certain bits of Apple hardware won’t work in Win 7. Guess how I know. Apple
not merely supplies BC, but gives step-by-step instructions on installing
Windows into BC. Start at https://support.apple.com/boot-camp

Note that it is perfectly possible to install Windows directly onto Mac
hardware, using the drivers available for Boot Camp. This would mean either a
supported version of Windows (Win 10) or playing with drivers for an
unsupported version. Note that Apple still has older versions of BC hidden
away on their site; it’s a pain to dig them up, but can be done... and then
you’ll have drivers for Win 7 or 8.x.
Linux is not officially supported under BC, but, again, can be made to work.
To my certain knowledge Ubuntu, Mint, and Fedora will run in BC. Guess how I
know. Again, there are driver issues, but workaround exist for almost all of
those issues.

Linux can be installed directly on Apple hardware. Driver support for a
direct-to-the-metal install is actually better than for BC. It’s
unofficial, though. Use at your own risk.

I’ve never attempted to install BSD under BC. I have done a clean install,
formatting the drive and installing. Again, there are driver issues, some of
which are challenging to work around. I don’t recommend putting BSD on
Apple hardware.

And, of course, it’s trivial to install Windows since XP and most Linux
distros, and, with some effort, BSD on a virtual machine. Just don’t use
Virtual Box, VB has issues with older Wins and a lot more. It’s been my
experience that Parallels works well, and its cheaper than VMWare.

On 2022 Feb 21, rabidR04CH wrote
(in article <ZQMQJ.67482$Tr18.51530@fx42.iad>):

> On 2022-02-21 08:38, nospam wrote:
> > In article<o6MQJ.38323$OT%7.12316@fx07.iad>, rabidR04CH<rabid@ro4.ch>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Much of it has to do with the
> > > fact that Apple assumes that you are buying their hardware to use their
> > > operating system. You can use another system, but they tend to make you
> > > jump through hoops to do so.
> >
> > false. apple even provides a utility to install windows, called boot
> > camp. they also fully support linux. they don't care what os someone
> > uses.
>
> You're still jumping through hoops since you're installing Windows
> within the MacOS operating system rather than going straight to the
> BIOS, setting it up to load a USB key containing the ISO and installing
> it that way.
>
> Admittedly, Boot Camp is actually a safer approach though if you're
> trying to avoid losing data.

you can install Win directly on the machine, no BC, straight up NNTFS
formatted volume, just plain Win. It’ll work.

Same for most Linux distros.

On 2022-02-21 09:23, Wolffan wrote:
> On 2022 Feb 20, rabidR04CH wrote
> (in article <%WCQJ.26103$U_B9.25592@fx20.iad>):
>
>> Since Windows machines, unlike Apple machines, make it fairly easy to
>> install something other than Windows,
>
> errr... a lot of Tuxers were up in arms about Secure Boot, certain that it
> was a nefarious Redmond plot to prevent the easy use of Linux. See, for
> example, https://techgenix.com/secure-boot-controversy-what-does-mean-it/

I actually believed the propaganda as well. In the end, it hasn't
affected us in any way unless you're looking to install proprietary
drivers. In those specific cases, you simply need to make sure that the
software isn't detected as being malware.

> This means that MS has, in theory, had the ability to lock non-MS OSes out of
> machines which first shipped with a MS OS since Win 8 shipped. They
> haven’t. They could. It’d be remarkably stupid of them to try, but
> Redmond’s done a lot of stupid things over the last 40 years. Personally I
> doubt that even Monkey Boy Balmer would have tried it, and Sad Nad is a _lot_
> smarter than the Monkey Boy.

If they tried it, those people looking to use Linux would build their
own hardware and turn to companies like LibreM who build products
specifically for Linux users. They can only lock devices that are
bundled with Windows.

> Meanwhile Apple has shipped Boot Camp with the OS since 2006, or when they
> went to Intel processors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_(software)
> Boot Camp is designed with Windows in mind, and different versions of BC with
> different versions of Windows. The current version, for instance, doesn’t
> support Win 7, but can be forced into compliance with some driver issues;
> certain bits of Apple hardware won’t work in Win 7. Guess how I know. Apple
> not merely supplies BC, but gives step-by-step instructions on installing
> Windows into BC. Start at https://support.apple.com/boot-camp
>
> Note that it is perfectly possible to install Windows directly onto Mac
> hardware, using the drivers available for Boot Camp. This would mean either a
> supported version of Windows (Win 10) or playing with drivers for an
> unsupported version. Note that Apple still has older versions of BC hidden
> away on their site; it’s a pain to dig them up, but can be done... and then
> you’ll have drivers for Win 7 or 8.x.
> Linux is not officially supported under BC, but, again, can be made to work.
> To my certain knowledge Ubuntu, Mint, and Fedora will run in BC. Guess how I
> know. Again, there are driver issues, but workaround exist for almost all of
> those issues.
>
> Linux can be installed directly on Apple hardware. Driver support for a
> direct-to-the-metal install is actually better than for BC. It’s
> unofficial, though. Use at your own risk.
>
> I’ve never attempted to install BSD under BC. I have done a clean install,
> formatting the drive and installing. Again, there are driver issues, some of
> which are challenging to work around. I don’t recommend putting BSD on
> Apple hardware.
>
> And, of course, it’s trivial to install Windows since XP and most Linux
> distros, and, with some effort, BSD on a virtual machine. Just don’t use
> Virtual Box, VB has issues with older Wins and a lot more. It’s been my
> experience that Parallels works well, and its cheaper than VMWare.

If it can be installed directly, by loading a USB key containing the ISO
then I stand corrected again. It's quite stellar for Apple to be
allowing users to do so, to be honest.

--
rabidR04CH
MSI GT72 2QD on Linux Mint 20.3
"But Peter and the apostles answered, 'We must obey God rather than
men.'" - Acts 5:29
For fans of message boards, I invite you:
https://retalk.com/invite/rabidR04CH