nospam wrote:

>> HINT: It's a basic fact you can't use the default iOS messenger without
>> logging into the Apple iCloud privacy tracking server. Period.
>
> icloud is not a 'privacy tracking server'

FACTS:
ZDNet: *I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/>

Stop playing games with us nospam by denying all you _hate_ about iCloud.

When you periodically log into Apple tracking servers, Apple themselves
tells you they maintain a TREMENDOUS amount of data about your activities.
*How to Download Your Personal Data From Apple*
<https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-download-your-personal-data-from-apple>

> apple does not nor cannot disable a device because someone does not use
> icloud or doesn't log into it periodically.

Stop playing games with us nospam by denying what you _hate_ about iOS.

Even you should be well aware the iOS device is almost worthless if the key
apps (such as the default SMS/MMS messenger app & App Store) are disabled.

Many key apps, including the App Store & the default text messenger are
disabled by Apple unilaterally if you do NOT periodically log into the
Apple tracking servers.

If you don't know that basic fact of the requirement to log into Apple
tracking servers, then you don't know the first thing about iOS.

But this thread isn't about iOS - this thread is to ask if Apple can
unilaterally lock you out of the functionality of the device simply by NOT
logging periodically into Apple tracking servers - why can't Microsoft?

The point is that Microsoft is _also_ requiring a similar login to its
tracking servers as of Windows 11 (as far as I know).

Which is why the question is apropos for this newsgroup.

>> The question remains valid
>
> it was never valid.

It's no longer shocking you brazenly deny facts everyone else knows.

The problem with you iKooks nospam isn't so much that you brazenly deny
(sans a single fact!) everything you _hate_ about Apple products, but that
there are _so many_ facts you hate about Apple products that you deny.

>> then why can't Microsoft do the same with Win11?
>
> a microsoft account is now required by default.
>
> it's still possible to not use one, just as it is possible to not use
> icloud.

It's no longer shocking you iKooks don't know the first thing about the
huge differences between common consumer operating systems, nospam.

1. If you don't log into the iCloud, you can't use the key iOS apps.
2. If you don't log into the Apple servers, you can't download iOS apps.
3. Apple tracks you by maintaining a TREMENDOUS amount of tracking data.

It's no longer shocking you iKooks do NOT understand _other_ OS's.
1. If you don't log into Google, you still can use most key Android apps.
2. For every key app you can't use, there is _always_ a FOSS replacement!
3. Google can't track you by your account if you have no Android account.
(see sig for caveats)

But this isn't about iOS nor about Android - it's about Windows.
1. If you don't log into MS, you can still use all the key Win10 programs.
2. For every key Win10 program (e.g., Edge), you can replace it easily.
3. Microsoft can't track you by an account if you don't have a MS account.
(see sig for caveats)

The problem now is that Windows 11 Home (apparently) requires a mothership
tracking account by default, which Windows 10 and below never required.
(see sig for caveats)

Hence the question is valid:
Since Apple unilaterally destroys your device key apps if you do not
periodically log into their mothership tracking servers -
why can't Microsoft do the same with this new Win11 login requirement?
--
Caveats: (since the iKooks always play silly chilish games around facts)

We're _always_ speaking about non-rooted/non-jailbroken devices here.

For Android, you do NOT need an account for _full_ functionality since
every functionality which requires a Google Account has a FOSS equivalent.
That does NOT mean Google can't track you by some other means, e.g., unique
device information, for example, when you use Google products (e.g., maps).

For "some" versions of Windows (e.g., Windows S), it "appears" you need an
account, and you do; at least initially you do; but you can have that
account removed from Microsoft tracking servers after the fact and the
Windows S can be converted to Windows 10 Home - which needs no mothership
tracking account.

For Windows 11, I'm not sure yet if the workarounds to removing the
mothership tracking account are successful (as I haven't tested it yet).

On 8/14/2022 9:50 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> But this thread isn't about iOS - this thread is to ask if Apple can

Why would this be crossposted to three Windows groups,
zero cellphone groups, zero Apple groups, zero Linux groups ???

Seems kinda dis-topical. Anti-topical.

People who are worried about how an Apple works,
would they not go directly to an Apple group and
ask their question ?

I am not worried in the slightest how an Apple
works, as I'm in a Windows group at the moment.
I'm more interested why my Vgpu seemed to disappear
earlier today and blocked a VM from working.
I'd done a wsl --shutdown, so it can't be that.

Paul

"Andy Burnelli" wrote in message news:tdauim$81q$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>nospam wrote:
>
>>> HINT: It's a basic fact you can't use the default iOS messenger without
>>> logging into the Apple iCloud privacy tracking server. Period.
>>
>> icloud is not a 'privacy tracking server'
>
>FACTS:
> ZDNet: *I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*
> <https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/>
>
>Stop playing games with us nospam by denying all you _hate_ about iCloud.
>
>When you periodically log into Apple tracking servers, Apple themselves
>tells you they maintain a TREMENDOUS amount of data about your activities.
> *How to Download Your Personal Data From Apple*
> <https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-download-your-personal-data-from-apple>
>
>
>> apple does not nor cannot disable a device because someone does not use
>> icloud or doesn't log into it periodically.
>
>Stop playing games with us nospam by denying what you _hate_ about iOS.
>
>Even you should be well aware the iOS device is almost worthless if the key
>apps (such as the default SMS/MMS messenger app & App Store) are disabled.
>
>Many key apps, including the App Store & the default text messenger are
>disabled by Apple unilaterally if you do NOT periodically log into the
>Apple tracking servers.
>
>If you don't know that basic fact of the requirement to log into Apple
>tracking servers, then you don't know the first thing about iOS.
>
>But this thread isn't about iOS - this thread is to ask if Apple can
>unilaterally lock you out of the functionality of the device simply by NOT
>logging periodically into Apple tracking servers - why can't Microsoft?
>
>The point is that Microsoft is _also_ requiring a similar login to its
>tracking servers as of Windows 11 (as far as I know).
>
>Which is why the question is apropos for this newsgroup.
>
>>> The question remains valid
>>
>> it was never valid.
>
>It's no longer shocking you brazenly deny facts everyone else knows.
>
>The problem with you iKooks nospam isn't so much that you brazenly deny
>(sans a single fact!) everything you _hate_ about Apple products, but that
>there are _so many_ facts you hate about Apple products that you deny.
>
>
>>> then why can't Microsoft do the same with Win11?
>>
>> a microsoft account is now required by default.
>>
>> it's still possible to not use one, just as it is possible to not use
>> icloud.
>
>It's no longer shocking you iKooks don't know the first thing about the
>huge differences between common consumer operating systems, nospam.
>
>1. If you don't log into the iCloud, you can't use the key iOS apps.
>2. If you don't log into the Apple servers, you can't download iOS apps.
>3. Apple tracks you by maintaining a TREMENDOUS amount of tracking data.
>
>It's no longer shocking you iKooks do NOT understand _other_ OS's.
>1. If you don't log into Google, you still can use most key Android apps.
>2. For every key app you can't use, there is _always_ a FOSS replacement!
>3. Google can't track you by your account if you have no Android account.
> (see sig for caveats)
>
>But this isn't about iOS nor about Android - it's about Windows.
>1. If you don't log into MS, you can still use all the key Win10 programs.
>2. For every key Win10 program (e.g., Edge), you can replace it easily.
>3. Microsoft can't track you by an account if you don't have a MS account.
> (see sig for caveats)
>
>The problem now is that Windows 11 Home (apparently) requires a mothership
>tracking account by default, which Windows 10 and below never required.
> (see sig for caveats)
>
>Hence the question is valid:
> Since Apple unilaterally destroys your device key apps if you do not
> periodically log into their mothership tracking servers - why can't
> Microsoft do the same with this new Win11 login requirement?

I've been using Microsoft 11 for several months and have never logged into
any Microsoft account. In fact, in 25+ years of using Windows-based
computers, I have never even had a Microsoft account. My computer works
just fine and I can access all functionality including internet access with
no problems.

I do have a username and password for accessing my computer locally, but
it's a stretch to call that a Microsoft account. That's more to keep my
computer physically secure against other people in my house. Even when I am
not connected to the internet (if I disable my network connection, for
example) I can still access my computer just fine and access all its
functionality. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying Windows 11 has a
requirement to log onto some mythical Microsoft tracking account.

--

On 2022-08-13 11:32 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>>  *Apple will unilaterally _disable_ your device* if you do NOT
>>> periodically
>>>   log into their Apple iCloud tracking server
>>
>> apple does no such thing, nor is that even possible even if they wanted
>> to, something which has been explained to you many, many times.
>
> Bullshit. It's no longer shocking you deny basic facts.
> a. Either you're ignorant of these basic facts, b. Or, you simply lie
> because you _hate_ these basic facts.

nospam lies to cover up any of Apple's issues.

< snip >

--
rabidR04CH
Encrypt. Avoid social media. Stay sane.
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Windows 11

On 8/14/2022 10:26 AM, Rick wrote:

> I've been using Microsoft 11 for several months and have never logged into any Microsoft account.  In fact, in 25+ years of using Windows-based computers, I have never even had a Microsoft account.  My computer works just fine and I can access all functionality including internet access with no problems.
>
> I do  have a username and password for accessing my computer locally, but it's a stretch to call that a Microsoft account.   That's more to keep my computer physically secure against other people in my house.  Even when I am not connected to the internet (if I disable my network connection, for example) I can still access my computer just fine and access all its functionality.   So I'm not sure what you mean by saying Windows 11 has a requirement to log onto some mythical Microsoft tracking account.

There are all sorts of things you can do to interfere
with the installation.

This is mostly untouched. Just plugged in disc and installed.
The VM Guest (on the right) has a virtual TPM. The Host has a physical TPM module.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/NFdtvrHZ/vm-w11-pro-screenshot.gif

The Pro on the right, is encrypted, but this is a VMWare requirement
for that specific version of VMWare software. The Home on the left, did NOT
attempt to encrypt anything. The encryption behavior of Home may be
related to certain OEM designs and design intent. So really, both Home
and Pro for me, did not need encryption as far as MSFT was concerned.
But VMWare decided to make encryption a requirement for my Guest.
If you try to install without it, it whines. This made installing
the Guest, harder than it looks. The container files are also uncompressible,
if you're worried about storage space. Which sucks.

The Win11 Home (the Host OS in that picture, the bits on the left),
has an MSA account. That's because I did not attempt to defeat the
MSA scheme.

The Pro in the VM is not activated, so the Personalization menu cannot be used.
The OS running in the VM, knows it is in a virtual machine, so
it's not exactly a secret as to where it is. Microsoft seems to block
nesting, so I cannot (as of today) install VirtualBox inside the Guest
and install yet another level of OS.

Paul

Paul wrote:

> Why would this be crossposted to three Windows groups,

*Because it is a _Windows_ question*.

Let me repeat:
*THIS IS _NOT_ AN IOS QUESTION*

Allow me to clarify:
*THIS IS A _WINDOWS_ QUESTION*

Paul... please _read_ the question.
Then read the responses, specifically the _last_ lines of each of them!

Clearly, the question has _nothing_ to do with iOS other than to show that
Microsoft _can_ follow in Apple's footsteps - the question is did they?

(Note that it's only nospam turning this into an iOS issue.)

Rick wrote:

> I've been using Microsoft 11 for several months and have never logged into
> any Microsoft account.

First, THANK YOU for responding ON TOPIC!
You're a godsend because you are the first who _understood_ the topic.

This is EXCELLENT information (if it's true).
Unfortunately, I have to ASK OTHERS if it's true because:
a. My Win10 does NOT have a MS account
b. Every WinS that I converted to Win10 does NOT have a MS account
c. But my Win10 desktops are too old to be allowed to install Win11

So I have to ask those of you on Windows 11 Home about this question.
Are you _sure_ you were able to set up Windows 11 Home WITHOUT an account?

I was "under the impression" that this was now required.
Please advise as that is a critically important detail.

> In fact, in 25+ years of using Windows-based
> computers, I have never even had a Microsoft account.

As I recall, when I converted Windows S laptops into Windows 10 Home, I had
to "temporarily" _create_ a MS Account, and then I could have it deleted.

Is that no longer necessary to first create the account and then delete it
for Windows S to be converted into Windows 10 Home nowadays?

> My computer works
> just fine and I can access all functionality including internet access with
> no problems.

Good. If this is true, and it may very well _be_ true, that Windows 11 does
not _require_ a MS account for full functionality, then this question being
asked is moot.

Note that I am not in the least worried about the inability to log into and
install programs from the Microsoft Store since, IMHO, it's all garbage.

For _that_, you "probably" need an account - but - as you stated - you
still have _full functionality_ without logging into that MS Store.

>
> I do have a username and password for accessing my computer locally, but
> it's a stretch to call that a Microsoft account.

Agreed. A _local_ account is normal. Like in the "olden days" we had a
username and a password that was local to the machine. That's fine.

> That's more to keep my
> computer physically secure against other people in my house. Even when I am
> not connected to the internet (if I disable my network connection, for
> example) I can still access my computer just fine and access all its
> functionality. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying Windows 11 has a
> requirement to log onto some mythical Microsoft tracking account.

Like you, for my _entire_ experience with Microsoft, I have resisted the
requests by Microsoft to _create_ a mothership tracking account.

About the only thing you "lose" today, at least with Windows 10, by not
having a Microsoft mothership tracking account, AFAIK, is the ability to
download "some" apps from the Microsoft Store (but who cares about them?).

In my humble experience, there's only garbage (or duplicates) in that MS
Store, so you still retain what I'd call "full functionality" without
having that login to the Microsoft tracking servers on Windows 10.

But it was my understanding that Windows 11 Home _required_ a mothership
account?

I clearly understand you are saying that it does not.
Is that correct?

Am I wrong then, to assume that Windows 11 _required_ a mothership account?
--
PS: I only care about the facts so if I was wrong all along - just say so.

Paul wrote:

> There are all sorts of things you can do to interfere
> with the installation.

Paul,
I (assert) that I own adult cognitive skills, as do you, and as does Rick.

As such, I don't mind in the least being wrong on facts (if I am wrong),
because the ONLY thing I care about are the facts being right in the end.

Hence I must ask YOU this extremely focused and pointed Win11 question:
Q: *Was I wrong to assume Windows 11 _required_ a MS mothership account?*

Note: I clearly _understood_ Rick saying it does not; but he didn't clarify
(yet) how he managed to do that, nor if he's using an enterprise edition.

Does Windows 11 Home _require_ a mothership account for full functionality?
Or not?
--
If yes, then the question asked in this thread is very important.
If no, then the question asked in this thread is instantly mooted.

Andy Burnelli hat am 14.08.2022 um 17:28 geschrieben:
> Paul wrote:
>
>> There are all sorts of things you can do to interfere
>> with the installation.
>
> Paul,
> I (assert) that I own adult cognitive skills, as do you, and as does Rick.
>
> As such, I don't mind in the least being wrong on facts (if I am wrong),
> because the ONLY thing I care about are the facts being right in the end.
>
> Hence I must ask YOU this extremely focused and pointed Win11 question:
> Q: *Was I wrong to assume Windows 11 _required_ a MS mothership account?*
>
> Note: I clearly _understood_ Rick saying it does not; but he didn't clarify
> (yet) how he managed to do that, nor if he's using an enterprise edition.
>
> Does Windows 11 Home _require_ a mothership account for full functionality?
> Or not?
> --
> If yes, then the question asked in this thread is very important.
> If no, then the question asked in this thread is instantly mooted.

I think Windows 11 home does require a M$ account or it won't work.

On 8/14/2022 11:28 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
>> There are all sorts of things you can do to interfere
>> with the installation.
>
> Paul,
> I (assert) that I own adult cognitive skills, as do you, and as does Rick.
>
> As such, I don't mind in the least being wrong on facts (if I am wrong), because the ONLY thing I care about are the facts being right in the end.
>
> Hence I must ask YOU this extremely focused and pointed Win11 question:
> Q: *Was I wrong to assume Windows 11 _required_ a MS mothership account?*
>
> Note: I clearly _understood_ Rick saying it does not; but he didn't clarify (yet) how he managed to do that, nor if he's using an enterprise edition.
>
> Does Windows 11 Home _require_ a mothership account for full functionality?
> Or not?

I'm sure you will find some recipe. Even the latest Rufus appears to be
armed with some editing function for it. There is at least one more method,
not listed there.

https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-without-microsoft-account

I would agree, that the MSA could be a requirement, if every copy of
Windows 11 Home used encryption. But that does not seem to be the case.
There is no need to store the recovery key in the MSA account on
the Microsoft server. Nothing else on Home, is a particular excuse
for an account. The encryption recovery key is the only thing
I've heard of which is even remotely an excuse for an MSA.

For any service you attempt to set up, which requires an account,
you will receive the Microsoft login window as a "hint" an MSA is required.
In some cases (yet again), the login window is bogus, and there may be
ways to bypass it and carry out the function desired. I've had at least
one case here, where batting the login window out of the way, allowed
continuing on in spite of it being presented. Just because there is a
login window, does not mean it is always set up to block forward progress.
In some cases, it's merely a side effect of some software you are
using, "attempting to sniff the MSA" and triggering the login.

Paul

In article <tdauim$81q$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

> ZDNet: *I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*

now do that with google.

>
> Even you should be well aware the iOS device is almost worthless if the key
> apps (such as the default SMS/MMS messenger app & App Store) are disabled.

nothing is disabled.

> Many key apps, including the App Store & the default text messenger are
> disabled by Apple unilaterally if you do NOT periodically log into the
> Apple tracking servers.

that is false. nothing is disabled.

at most, you might need to provide your password again.

third party apps, which are outside of apple's control, can either save
a token to maintain authentication (or save the password which is a bad
idea but some do it), or they can require logging in each time, as is
the case with banking apps.

> If you don't know that basic fact of the requirement to log into Apple
> tracking servers, then you don't know the first thing about iOS.

as someone who has written ios apps, i know far more about ios than
you'll ever know.

you couldn't even get android sample code to work.

> But this thread isn't about iOS - this thread is to ask if Apple can
> unilaterally lock you out of the functionality of the device simply by NOT
> logging periodically into Apple tracking servers - why can't Microsoft?

> 1. If you don't log into the iCloud, you can't use the key iOS apps.

that's false.

> 2. If you don't log into the Apple servers, you can't download iOS apps.

obviously. same for google and microsoft, from their respective stores.

> 3. Apple tracks you by maintaining a TREMENDOUS amount of tracking data.

it's not 'tremendous' and it's nowhere near as much as google and
facebook.

In article <tdb0kr$35sqp$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>
> Why would this be crossposted to three Windows groups,
> zero cellphone groups, zero Apple groups, zero Linux groups ???

because he's trolling.

he's also spewing massive amounts of disinformation.

In article <tdb4ga$knv$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

> I think Windows 11 home does require a M$ account or it won't work.

correct, although there is a way around that.

In article <uH7KK.772047$zgr9.79379@fx13.iad>, rabidR04CH
<rabid@R04.CH> wrote:

> >>>  *Apple will unilaterally _disable_ your device* if you do NOT
> >>> periodically
> >>>   log into their Apple iCloud tracking server
> >>
> >> apple does no such thing, nor is that even possible even if they wanted
> >> to, something which has been explained to you many, many times.
> >
> > Bullshit. It's no longer shocking you deny basic facts.
> > a. Either you're ignorant of these basic facts, b. Or, you simply lie
> > because you _hate_ these basic facts.
>
> nospam lies to cover up any of Apple's issues.

if you think anything i said is a lie, prove it wrong.

Paul wrote:

>> Does Windows 11 Home _require_ a mothership account for full functionality?
>> Or not?
>
> I'm sure you will find some recipe.

Paul,
You may not recall, but you and I have tried to work around Microsoft
"requirements" and sometimes we won, and sometimes we lost.

For example, years ago, when MS started requiring the automatic updates, we
fought them tooth and nail and somewhat succeeded (although MS then
resorted to those funky files that even a dual-boot to Ubuntu couldn't
delete). Eventually, I gave up - and now I let MS update my machine.

Notice that it's a _requirement_ that MS update your Win10 Home/Pro
machine.

Likewise, you and I spend tremendous effort trying to wrestle the "tiled"
menus into shape, but we found out soon enough that some of those tiles are
binaries, and in the end, as far as I know, both of us lost that battle
too.

However, the tiled menus are NOT a requirement for full MS functionality.
We can easily use WinXP style native Windows 10 cascaded accordion menus.
<https://i.postimg.cc/j5K0RL7H/taskbarmenu01.jpg> No cortana search icon

Some Microsoft so-called "requirements" we can easily ignore and still have
full functionality (e.g., Cortana); but some you really can't (e.g.,
updates).

The history above goes back years, where we "almost" never fail to wrestle
control over our machines from Microsoft - but can we do that in Win11
Home?

Specifically, how hard/easy it is to just skip the Microsoft Account
creation step in Windows 11 Home - and - what functionality is then lost?

> Even the latest Rufus appears to be
> armed with some editing function for it. There is at least one more method,
> not listed there.
> https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/install-windows-11-without-microsoft-account

Thanks for that link which, summarized, says:

"Maintain only a local account on your Windows 11 PC."
"By default, you must have (or create) a Microsoft account in order to
install Windows 11 Home (and versions of Pro that are build 22H2 and up)."
"there's an easy way to install Windows 11 without using a Microsoft
account."

"There's a simple trick for using a local account that works on current
builds of Windows and involves cutting off Internet at just the right time
in the setup process."

That sounds good...

"However, the upcoming (and currently in preview) build 22H2 is wise to
this trick and blocks it, demanding that you reconnect to the Internet
before continuing."

Drat.

"If you have Windows 11 22H2, you'll need to prepare your install disk
using Rufus, a process we document further down this page."

Now I see _why_ you brought up Rufus (which I have only some familiarity
with for when I was debugging Windows BSOD crashes).

> I would agree, that the MSA could be a requirement, if every copy of
> Windows 11 Home used encryption. But that does not seem to be the case.

Hmmmmm... what the heck does that sentence even mean?
I'm sure you meant it to mean something to me - but I don't know enough
about why encryption is involved at all to understand what it means to me.
(see belated epiphany below)

> There is no need to store the recovery key in the MSA account on
> the Microsoft server. Nothing else on Home, is a particular excuse
> for an account. The encryption recovery key is the only thing
> I've heard of which is even remotely an excuse for an MSA.

Oh. Now I see, belatedly, _why_ you mentioned "encryption".

So there's this special need for an encrypted key to be stored on Windows
11 which is a "recovery" key only?

And that "recovery key" (whatever that is) is stored on MS servers?
In your MSA account?

> For any service you attempt to set up, which requires an account,
> you will receive the Microsoft login window as a "hint" an MSA is required.

If there is a "skip", then I can ignore that hint.
If there is not a "skip", then we're in trouble.

> In some cases (yet again), the login window is bogus, and there may be
> ways to bypass it and carry out the function desired.

The keyword is "may", which, I believe may exist - but what is the
solution?

Even the Toms'Guide article you referenced said MS is getting wise to this.
"Another method, which works even with Windows 22H2, involves confusing
Windows by entering an email address that, apparently, has been used too
many times. This worked for us, but Microsoft could get wise to it."

> I've had at least
> one case here, where batting the login window out of the way, allowed
> continuing on in spite of it being presented. Just because there is a
> login window, does not mean it is always set up to block forward progress.
> In some cases, it's merely a side effect of some software you are
> using, "attempting to sniff the MSA" and triggering the login.

Thank you for confirming that the MS account is "required" but that
Toms'Guide article shows one possible method, using Rufus, to avoid it.

"If you're installing Windows 11 22H2 or newer, you need to use Rufus (or
some other method) to create the install disk so that turning off Internet
during the setup process allows you to proceed with a local account."

Getting back to the original question, it _does_ seem that the mothership
tracking account _is_ required (as it can only be removed with extreme
effort).

Hence the question is valid (now that we've established the facts)...
*If other motherships can disable your device, what's to stop MS?*

That is, how do we know Microsoft won't disable _our_ Win11 devices too?

On 8/14/22 10:05 AM, nospam wrote:
> he's also spewing massive amounts of disinformation.

He's right about the MSA.

W11 requires a MSA to be set up whether you are aware of that or not.

You don't know anything about W11 so why don't you just STFU until you do.
--
Jerry Friedman

In article <tdb7uf$4pb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

> W11 requires a MSA to be set up whether you are aware of that or not.
>
> You don't know anything about W11 so why don't you just STFU until you do.

<https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-microsoft-acc
ount>
If you don't like the idea of having a Microsoft account to set up
Windows 11, here's how to get around the problem.

On 8/14/2022 11:08 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
>> Why would this be crossposted to three Windows groups,
>
>   *Because it is a _Windows_ question*.
>

When every line of this conversation is "Apple Apple Apple" ?

There is a difference, between the FUD that comes out of the
Microsoft PR machine, and the practical enforcement. Windows
now is roughly as enforcing as Linux. It does not stop working
after 30 days. It keeps working.

I can take a Windows 10 disk from the Zen3 machine, and
stuff it in the IvyBridge-E machine and it still boots.
(This means it's OK to do that by accident, but I do not
recommend moving the disk around like it was a cheap whore.)
Just as I can do with Linux Mint. Both machines have NVidia video
cards, so the drivers are mostly the same (the cards are from
the same epoch).

The only thing it withholds, is the Personalization menu.
Now, your Task Bar can't be pink. Big deal.

If the grace period is no longer enforced, what would a
"locking" behavior mean exactly ? It would be a non-starter.
To commence such a campaign, would start with enforcement
of grace period and making it so the license mattered.
And that ship has sailed. Decision made, and signed off.

What you have to remember, is there is no "visible business case"
for the continued development of Windows OS. Not at least,
for the consumer version. There is a business case for the
Enterprise version. Would you receive enough income from
Enterprise, to pay the salary of 7000 developers ? That's
a stretch. So I would claim to you, that being a rich company,
Windows OS is a "loss leader", just as Github is a loss leader,
and is all part of a promotion machine. It's not nearly
the same kind of model as some APple thing.

Part of this, has to do with the predicted logic of the thing.
Some wiseass said "desktops are done, people will use only mobile devices".
The management believed this. At least, until the Windows Phone division
collapsed. Now the management does not believe anything. They used
to have a plan. Now, they don't have a plan.

So as far as "believing in their mission" goes, there is a hardware
guy who develops Surface products, and he needs an OS to ship on
them. So they put the 7000 developers under him, and the Windows "division"
no longer exists as such. But that does not end any financial
responsibility. You could, for example, run it as a "services" division,
and "rent" the 7000 developers to groups such as Azure. In this
way, the headcount used for Windows could be strictly limited, to
conform to a financially responsible business model. You can't
have 7000 guys sitting there on their ass! And the management
charts have to be adjusted so the billings go somewhere.

It is because of the "quicksand" nature of what is inside
the Redmond campus buildings, we cannot jump to any "absolute"
conclusions. Things are too stupid and fluid there, to be
making predictions. Half the stuff they do, is aided by a
random number generator to make the business calls.
What is the reason for FrameServe ? Why was FrameServe
approved ? Was it even approved ? Did a manager sign for it ?
And so on. Stupid and fluid.

And they can do this, because they're sitting on a mountain
of money. Having limited cash on hand, as Apple once had (9 quarters worth)
has a way of focusing your efforts. Apple almost went broke once.

Microsoft is a shambles of a company, a carcass that keeps making money.
And as long as it successfully walks a straight line as a Zombie,
nobody cares.

Paul

nospam wrote:

>> ZDNet: *I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*
>
> now do that with google.

You can't comprehend this is a thread about Microsoft Windows 11 MSAs.
Q: *Can/will Microsoft unilaterally destroy functionality on Windows 11*
*if you (purposefully perhaps) do NOT periodically log into MS servers?*

Why is it that you always claim Apple is just as bad as is Google on
privacy when we're talking about Microsoft here, not Apple or Google?

Stop playing games with us because you _hate_ that Apple is as bad as is
Google on mothership tracking and lack of consumer privacy.

Stick to Microsoft Windows 11 privacy, nospam.

>
>>
>> Even you should be well aware the iOS device is almost worthless if the key
>> apps (such as the default SMS/MMS messenger app & App Store) are disabled.
>
> nothing is disabled.

Almost nothing works unless you log into the mothership tracking server.
Which is the entire point of this _Windows_ question.

Can and will Microsoft disable everything on you like other companies do?

>> Many key apps, including the App Store & the default text messenger are
>> disabled by Apple unilaterally if you do NOT periodically log into the
>> Apple tracking servers.
>
> that is false. nothing is disabled.
>
> at most, you might need to provide your password again.

Jesus Christ.
You're an idiot.

First you say nothing is disabled and then you agree it won't work.
At least when you defend Apple to the death, make _adult_ sense please.

> third party apps, which are outside of apple's control, can either save
> a token to maintain authentication (or save the password which is a bad
> idea but some do it), or they can require logging in each time, as is
> the case with banking apps.

Again you prove to be an idiot nospam.
First you claim a login isn't needed and then you say you knew it was.

You can't even keep your excuses for the lack of privacy on iOS straight.
But this isn't about iOS even as you are _desperate_ to make it about iOS.

This is about Windows 11.
If other companies can just destroy your computer - why can't Microsoft?

>
>> If you don't know that basic fact of the requirement to log into Apple
>> tracking servers, then you don't know the first thing about iOS.
>
> as someone who has written ios apps, i know far more about ios than
> you'll ever know.

And yet you claimed the login isn't needed in one breath, and in the very
next breath you claimed that the login is often needed.

You can't even keep your myriad inane childish excuses straight nospam.
Besides, it's proven Apple will unilaterally destroy your computer if you
do NOT periodically log into the account (you said it yourself above).

The question here isn't about iOS - the question here is about Microsoft.
Q: Can/will Microsoft do the same unilateral destruction as others do?

>
> you couldn't even get android sample code to work.

WTF does that (baseless claim) have to do with anything?
Are you in kindergarten nospam?

You _hate_ all facts about lack of privacy on Apple devices, so in order to
rectify those facts about the lack of iOS privacy, you say I don't write
code?

WTF?
How old are you nospam?

Seriously.
What grade are you in?

You can't comprehend this is a thread about Microsoft.
Q: Can/will Microsoft unilaterally destroy functionality on Windows 11
if you (purposefully perhaps) do NOT periodically log into MS servers?

>> But this thread isn't about iOS - this thread is to ask if Apple can
>> unilaterally lock you out of the functionality of the device simply by NOT
>> logging periodically into Apple tracking servers - why can't Microsoft?
>
>> 1. If you don't log into the iCloud, you can't use the key iOS apps.
>
> that's false.

You can't even keep your excuses straight nospam.
Above you said the login wasn't needed in one sentence, and in the very
next few set of sentences you proved you _knew_ that is _is_ needed.

You can't comprehend this question is not about the lack of iOS privacy.
This question is whether Microsoft can/will follow in Apple's footsteps.

>> 2. If you don't log into the Apple servers, you can't download iOS apps.
>
> obviously. same for google and microsoft, from their respective stores.

It's clear you _hate_ the lack of privacy on Apple servers just as much as
we all hate the lack of privacy on Apple, Google, and Microsoft, nospam.

However, the _difference_ which eludes you wacko iKooks, nospam, is:
a. With Android, you can download _all_ the apps (every single one!)
WITHOUT ever setting up a Google on-device account
b. With Windows10/Ubuntu you can download the apps (almost every one!)
WITHOUT ever setting up a Microsoft/Canonical on-device account
c. With iOS, you can't.

Besides, this isn't about iOS anyway (you're trying to make it about iOS).
This is about Windows 11.

The only reason for bringing up Apple was to show it _can_ be done.
And that it is done.
By Apple.

The question here is:
Q: *Can/will Microsoft unilaterally destroy functionality on Windows 11*
*if you (purposefully perhaps) do NOT periodically log into MS servers?*

>> 3. Apple tracks you by maintaining a TREMENDOUS amount of tracking data.
>
> it's not 'tremendous' and it's nowhere near as much as google and
> facebook.

You don't even realize you're always claiming Apple is just as bad in
privacy as Google and Facebook, nospam when you excuse what Apple does.

Notwithstanding you telling us what we already know about Apple being as
bad as Facebook & Google on privacy, the Windows 11 question remains here:

Q: *Can/will Microsoft unilaterally destroy functionality on Windows 11*
*if you (purposefully perhaps) do NOT periodically log into MS servers?*

On 8/14/2022 12:22 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> The keyword is "may", which, I believe may exist - but what is the
> solution?
> Even the Toms'Guide article you referenced said MS is getting wise to this.
> "Another method, which works even with Windows 22H2, involves confusing
> Windows by entering an email address that, apparently, has been used too
> many times. This worked for us, but Microsoft could get wise to it."

I still don't like the terminology people are using in this thread.

The installer attempts to arm-twist the user, into submitting
to an MSA. This is an installer behavior. I had an install going once,
where unplugging the cable did not do anything, and I could not advance
the state machine to the next installer step. These are installer
issues, which may or may not have any "final merit".

Now, at the other end of the spectrum, is how dependent is
the day to day operation of the OS, to the MSA ? Some of the
things the OS attempts to do, may fail, and an error message
could be logged somewhere. This does NOT prevent you
from continuing to play Win32 Tetris. The OS does not shut off
if the SearchIndexer task dies. It marches onward.

There are few mechanisms which will absolutely kill the OS.
There is LSASS and CSRSS, security services where the OS
needs those as the basis of security. If they're tipped
over, the OS will shut down.

The OS is supposed to have a few "tumblers", but anecdotally,
none have been reported in the field. No one has experiences clicking
on something and the OS shut down on them 10usec later.

Getting past the MSA is largely an install time thing.
After that, nobody gives a fuck. Would the Windows Store
depend on an MSA ? Maybe. But then you don't absolutely
need the Windows Store to play win32 Tetris.

Yes, you can install Windows 10-S as a strawman if you like,
but why would you do that, when you can run Windows 10 Pro and
there is no enforcement of grace period ? Nobody says you have
to buy lame ARM hardware, to make life tougher for yourself.

When you buy new device today, you're required to check the
tech news for particular companies that have screwed up MOK
keys and the like. Don't buy any device that comes with
handcuffs, and you'll be fine. Then if you have to bail and
install Linux or Neverware Chromebook, you can.

Paul

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 12:45:15 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> scrit:

>>> Why would this be crossposted to three Windows groups,
>>
>> � *Because it is a _Windows_ question*.
>>
>
> When every line of this conversation is "Apple Apple Apple" ?
>

If people would STOP responding to the nospam troll dude, this convo would
stay being about Windows 11 accounts and whether or not M$ can kill them
when you decide to stop logging into the M$ servers years from now.

On 2022/08/14 10:5 am, nospam wrote:

>>>>> �*Apple will unilaterally _disable_ your device* if you do NOT
>>>>> periodically
>>>>> � log into their Apple iCloud tracking server
>>>>
>>>> apple does no such thing, nor is that even possible even if they wanted
>>>> to, something which has been explained to you many, many times.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. It's no longer shocking you deny basic facts.
>>> a. Either you're ignorant of these basic facts, b. Or, you simply lie
>>> because you _hate_ these basic facts.
>>
>> nospam lies to cover up any of Apple's issues.
>
> if you think anything i said is a lie, prove it wrong.

The answer would be shorter if you asked have you ever told the truth.
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Paul wrote:

> Getting past the MSA is largely an install time thing.

Paul,

The goal of this thread is to answer a question which had _never_ been
asked before in the entire history of Windows Usenet newsgroups (AFAIK).

The _only_ reason this thread "gives a fuck" :) about the MSA in Windows 11
is that if it exists, _then_ Microsoft has the "ability" to do what "other
companies" do - which is disable a _lot_ of the functionality of the device
if you do not periodically log into that MSA account on Microsoft servers.

From what you, Rick, and Zaghadka wrote, we can safely assume the vast
majority of people will likely be forced to create a MSA account on
Micrsosoft Servers for Windows 11.

That's the last we need to talk about the MSA because this thread is not
about the need for the MSA other than to establish that it exist in Windows
11.

> After that, nobody gives a fuck.

This is critical because we have established the MSA is "required" (for
most valus of "required" that is). So enough talk about the MSA please.

Once you're forced to log into a periodic mothership tracking account...

We already know "other companies" can and do disable a vast amount of the
functionality of the device if you (purposefully perhaps, as I did) refuse
to periodically log into their mothership tracking servers.

We _know_ this is a fact that they can do it - and that they do do it.
The question here is whether Microsoft can do the same?

Remember, Windows is _different_ than (that other operating system).
In that "other operating system", almost everything is controlled by the
mothership company.

But Windows is different.

Can Microsoft disable most of functionality like that "other company" does?

Will they?

> Would the Windows Store
> depend on an MSA ? Maybe.

Again, this isn't about the MSA once we've established that almost everyone
will be "forced" (for some values of force) to periodically log into a
Windows 11 mothership tracking account...

But... to that point of the Microsoft Store...

I do NOT have a Microsoft Account on Windows 10 and I can NOT download many
apps from the Microsoft Store... but... I don't care... because...

Because...

Because... Microsoft isn't like that "other company" where you must
download everything from the mothership store...

So Windows is different (in that way)...
You don't _need_ the mothership store for Windows...

> But then you don't absolutely
> need the Windows Store to play win32 Tetris.

In summary, we've established two facts that we do NOT need to hash further
1. Windows 11 requires periodic login into a mothership tracking account
2. Other companies who require the same can and do "destroy" your device

To my knowledge, in decades of being on Windows Usenet newsgroups, this
particular question has NEVER been asked - simply because an MSA wasn't
required until now...

Hence...

The ONLY question here is the same now as when this thread started:
Q: *Can/will Microsoft unilaterally destroy functionality on Windows 11*
*if you (purposefully perhaps) do NOT periodically log into MS servers?*

On 8/14/2022 1:26 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> In summary, we've established two facts that we do NOT need to hash further
> 1. Windows 11 requires periodic login into a mothership tracking account
> 2. Other companies who require the same can and do "destroy" your device
>
> To my knowledge, in decades of being on Windows Usenet newsgroups, this
> particular question has NEVER been asked - simply because an MSA wasn't
> required until now...
>
> Hence...
>
> The ONLY question here is the same now as when this thread started:
> Q: *Can/will Microsoft unilaterally destroy functionality on Windows 11*
> *if you (purposefully perhaps) do NOT periodically log into MS servers?*

What happens if you create the W11 MSA & then never log into it ever again?

On 14/08/2022 18:31, CDB wrote:
>
> What happens if you create the W11 MSA & then never log into it ever
> again?
You won't know what Microsoft is doing with your bank account and
passwords that it has harvested.