On 17/12/2021 22.42, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:00:39 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 17/12/2021 20.28, Diego Garcia wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
>>>> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
>>>> drive.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The point of the articles is to argue against the use of the
>>> ISO format to distribute bootable OS installations. Nothing
>>> more.
>>
>> That's an interesting idea. I have read now the links, which I had
>> opened for reading when I had the chance, his proposal is curious.
>>
>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>
> All newer/modern servers generally have the same bare metal boot options as
> desktop machines -- eg they have much the same boot firmware (BIOS or whatever
> its called these days) as desktop machines.
>
> OTOH, *virtual machines* often are installed from "virtual" optical disks,
> which generally get "mapped" to ISO9660 image files.

They could be mapped to .img virtual disks instead just as easily, if
the virtualisation software supports it.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:25:12 -0500, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/12/2021 20.23, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:08:14 -0500, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
>>> Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
>>> for more.
>>
>> Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with
>> cheap usb drives that had less capacity or speed than they were
>> supposed to have, I've never encountered problems with them. I still
>> have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology DT101 G2 usb drive that
>> I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it still
>> works fine.
>
> That is not that surprising. It is only 100 write operations.
>
> But, for example, opening an office document directly on a stick wears
> it more.

Most of the iso images being tested were live iso images with a persistence
file system on the usb stick, so a lot more than just the 100 writes.

Just fyi, I'm the leader of the qa team for Mageia linux.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:00:39 -0500, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?

I know that Mageia linux still has a number of users who have older hardware
that does not support booting from usb. I use usb myself on all of my installs,
but not everyone can.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 17/12/2021 22.48, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 16/12/2021 22.35, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Yes, I could have just bought_one_ USB flash drive, but the
>>> inconvenience of having to write an image to it every time I wanted
>>> to boot a different distro means that buying at least five would be
>>> the only way to really get close to the convenience of my current
>>> system.
>>
>> on openSUSE, the image is often read-write if put on an USB. This is
>> useful for a live, being able to write files, even to add packages to
>> it. Can't be done on CD :-p
>
> That's useful if you want to do actual work on the live-booted OS,
> but personally I like to know that it's brought back to a
> clean-slate condition on each reboot, and can't be messed up by
> a driver installation or faulty hardware. For my usual purpose of
> testing or data recovery, the read-only aspect is a prime
> advantage. If I want to do real work then that's a different
> matter and I'll install the OS properly.
>
> Knowing that you can hit the power button at any time without
> risking the boot media is very freeing when testing dodgy hardware
> or experimenting with drivers. As is the ability to quickly switch
> to trying another distro when one hangs during boot on a particular
> machine - no waiting for a USB drive to be rewritten.

openSUSE has two types of "lives". One is a pure install image that can
only be used for installation, it is read only, like a DVD. The other is
for testing the distro, and can be written to, with some limitations.
One of these is oriented to rescue system: I usually install to it a few
packages I like that are not there originally, so being writeable is
interesting and useful.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 18:57:28 -0500, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> openSUSE has two types of "lives". One is a pure install image that can
> only be used for installation, it is read only, like a DVD. The other is
> for testing the distro, and can be written to, with some limitations.
> One of these is oriented to rescue system: I usually install to it a few
> packages I like that are not there originally, so being writeable is
> interesting and useful.

Mageia has what we call "classic" iso images, install only, one for x86-64 and
one for i586. They have gnome, kde plasma and xfce4 on them.

There are four live iso images (x86_64 kde plasma, x86_64 gnome, x86_64 Xfce4,
and i586 Xfce4). With the live iso images, use of a persistence file system is
optional. If not used, changes made while running in live mode are kept in ram
only. The running live system can be used to installed to a hard drive, with the
changes kept.

There are experimental images (img files, not iso) for install on aarch64 and
armv7hl.

The online repositories have a number of other desktop environments such as mate,
enlightenment, etc.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

O 17/12/21 ás 23:07, Carlos E. R. escribiu:
> On 17/12/2021 22.42, Robert Heller wrote:
>> OTOH, *virtual machines* often are installed from "virtual" optical
>> disks,
>> which generally get "mapped" to ISO9660 image files.
>
> They could be mapped to .img virtual disks instead just as easily, if
> the virtualisation software supports it.
>

Virtualbox, for example, does not let you mount .img files, except for
floppies. This does not seem to be going to be changed anytime soon.

Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
> O 17/12/21 ás 23:07, Carlos E. R. escribiu:
>> On 17/12/2021 22.42, Robert Heller wrote:
>>> OTOH, *virtual machines* often are installed from "virtual" optical
>>> disks,
>>> which generally get "mapped" to ISO9660 image files.
>>
>> They could be mapped to .img virtual disks instead just as easily, if
>> the virtualisation software supports it.
>>
>
> Virtualbox, for example, does not let you mount .img files, except for
> floppies. This does not seem to be going to be changed anytime soon.

Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file, then
setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device where the
..img is mounted.

David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:00:39 -0500, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>
> I know that Mageia linux still has a number of users who have older hardware
> that does not support booting from usb. I use usb myself on all of my installs,
> but not everyone can.

The Plop Boot Manager is pretty versatile for booting difficult
PCs:
https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanagers.html

The PC I'm posting from is so old its BIOS won't even boot from CD,
but Plop Boot Manager started from a floppy disk works well.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
> Parodper <parodper@disroot.org> wrote:
>> O 17/12/21 ás 23:07, Carlos E. R. escribiu:
>>> On 17/12/2021 22.42, Robert Heller wrote:
>>>> OTOH, *virtual machines* often are installed from "virtual" optical
>>>> disks,
>>>> which generally get "mapped" to ISO9660 image files.
>>>
>>> They could be mapped to .img virtual disks instead just as easily, if
>>> the virtualisation software supports it.
>>>
>>
>> Virtualbox, for example, does not let you mount .img files, except for
>> floppies. This does not seem to be going to be changed anytime soon.

Interesting.

Well, then there is still a reason to keep having iso files.

> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file, then
> setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device where the
> .img is mounted.

Yes, I thought so.

Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
disk? vmdk or whatever?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
>> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file,
>> then setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device
>> where the .img is mounted.
>
> Yes, I thought so.
>
> Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
> disk? vmdk or whatever?

The answer would likely be yes, provided someone wrote the relevant
converter.

And a minor bit of searching reveals that qemu might do some level of
"conversions":

https://jima.cat/convert-raw-dd-image-to-vmdk-vmware/

On 19/12/2021 00.47, Rich wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
>>> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file,
>>> then setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device
>>> where the .img is mounted.
>>
>> Yes, I thought so.
>>
>> Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
>> disk? vmdk or whatever?
>
> The answer would likely be yes, provided someone wrote the relevant
> converter.
>
> And a minor bit of searching reveals that qemu might do some level of
> "conversions":
>
> https://jima.cat/convert-raw-dd-image-to-vmdk-vmware/

There might be some facility to imitate USB sticks. Or there should.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
> On 16.12.2021 at 19:52, Marco Moock scribbled:

> > Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
> > Kev:
> >
> > > Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
> > > without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
> > > drive.
> >
> > Is is really cheaper?
> > I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
> > supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned
> > DVD is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating
> > systems have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful
> > anymore and produces a huge amount of waste.

> That's why Gandalf invented CD-rw/DVD-rw/DVD+rw, Preciousss. :p

Ditto. Preeeeeeeeeeeeecccccccccciiiiiiiiiiiiious. :b
--
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Am Freitag, 17. Dezember 2021, um 14:23:10 Uhr schrieb David W. Hodgins:

> Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with
> cheap usb drives that had less capacity or speed than they were
> supposed to have, I've never encountered problems with them. I still
> have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology DT101 G2 usb drive that
> I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it still
> works fine.

I agree.
I also had cheap USB disks (for some Euros from the supermarket), some
of them already died after some years, but it is much cheaper to buy
them instead of burning DVDs because they are more portable (can be
carried in the pocket) and most new laptops don't have a DVD drive, so
I need to carry that too.

> I've only switched to newer usb drives as that one is only usb2, and
> the newer usb3 drives are much faster.

I don't even have one USB3 capable device :-)

> I'm a heavy smoker.

Think about the other parts of your computer, they also don't like it.

> Optical drives don't last long before they start
> producing read/write errors, whether using RO or RW discs. I've
> stopped replacing the drives and use usb sticks only.

I had some optical drives with a broken rubber belt. Replacement is
possible but I need to disassemble the entire drive.

Am Freitag, 17. Dezember 2021, um 15:22:16 Uhr schrieb David W. Hodgins:

> Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically
> lasts about 6 months for me before it has to be replaced.

Holy moly, that must be cost-intensive.
What about other parts of your computer?
Do you remove dust frequently?

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 06:57:55 -0500, Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> wrote:

> Am Freitag, 17. Dezember 2021, um 15:22:16 Uhr schrieb David W. Hodgins:
>
>> Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically
>> lasts about 6 months for me before it has to be replaced.
>
> Holy moly, that must be cost-intensive.
> What about other parts of your computer?
> Do you remove dust frequently?

I stopped replacing them and now only use usb drives. I take the side off and vacuum
it every couple of months.

It seems the read head on dvd drives really do not like nicotine, and it's really
difficult to clean a read head well enough to get it working again. :-)

I clean the dust out every couple of months. Over the last 9 years I've replaced
three out of 5 case fans. Nothing else in the case seems to be that sensitive.

The bulk of the damage I've had with electronics came from a very close lighting strike. The strike took out a 20" Mitsubishi Diamond scan monitor, the power supply,
and three hard drives (hard drives replaced with ssd drives now). It also took out
the power supply, motherboard, and hard drive in another computer as well as an older
model television and all light bulbs that were on. That strike hit the transformer across the street that my house wiring is connected to. The circuit breakers did
trip, but not fast enough.

That was when I bought a ups system for my computers.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 12/19/21 09:31, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 06:57:55 -0500, Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> wrote:
>
>> Am Freitag, 17. Dezember 2021, um 15:22:16 Uhr schrieb David W. Hodgins:
>>
>>> Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically
>>> lasts about 6 months for me before it has to be replaced.
>>
>> Holy moly, that must be cost-intensive.
>> What about other parts of your computer?
>> Do you remove dust frequently?

I have had to replace drives in the past and they are not so
expensive these days.

>
> I stopped replacing them and now only use usb drives. I take the side
> off and vacuum
> it every couple of months.
>
> It seems the read head on dvd drives really do not like nicotine, and
> it's really
> difficult to clean a read head well enough to get it working again. :-)

Not the nicotine which is very bad for your health but the smoke
combined with any grease material which might be vaporized. It is hard
to stop smoking but likely if you switched to nicotine gum your nerves
would not be worked by withdrawal, It still would be bad for your
health but less smokey and therefore no deposition in the lungs.

>
> I clean the dust out every couple of months. Over the last 9 years I've
> replaced
> three out of 5 case fans. Nothing else in the case seems to be that > sensitive.

If only we coudd clean out your lungs.
But you are diligent with the dusting of your computer.
>
> The bulk of the damage I've had with electronics came from a very close
> lighting strike. The strike took out a 20" Mitsubishi Diamond scan
> monitor, the power supply,
> and three hard drives (hard drives replaced with ssd drives now). It
> also took out
> the power supply, motherboard, and hard drive in another computer as
> well as an older
> model television and all light bulbs that were on. That strike hit the
> transformer across the street that my house wiring is connected to. The
> circuit breakers did
> trip, but not fast enough.
>
> That was when I bought a ups system for my computers.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins

Well I had a similar incident when a trolley bus managed to short
ciruit into a lamp post and vaporized the AC lines into the
Apartment building. Some tenants lost their electronics but I
had invested in secondary circuit breakers and did not looe anything
while the tenants closest to the street lost it all.

I already had chosen to use Laptops because I didn't want a
separate UPS. Was afraid of a battery leak out of sight.
bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 19/12/2021 19:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>   Not the nicotine which is very bad for your health but the smoke
> combined with any grease material which might be vaporized.

Tars, essentially

> It is hard
> to stop smoking but likely if you switched to nicotine gum your nerves
> would not be worked by withdrawal,  It still would be bad for your
> health but less smokey and therefore no deposition in the lungs.

I stopped smoking twice, the first time for ten years and the last time
to save my life.

The first time I just stopped. How? I made it the single most important
thing. All the cravings were simply rendered unimportant by the fact
that not smoking was more important.

The second time I chewed gum for about 18 months until one day I
realised I wasn't chewing gum. Walk in the park.

You need a lot less willpower to chew gum than do nothing but suffer
withdrawal.

Since the reason to stop the second time was to protect lungs, not
remove the nicotine dependency I made no effort to *not* chew the gum. I
enjoyed chewing the gum. I was happy to chew the gum for the rest of my
life.

But somewhere along the line without being conscious of it, I wasn't
chewing the gum any more.

--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:35:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> well at a few cents a piece of plastic who is really that bothered?

Future generations!

--
Order! Order in the group!

On 21/12/2021 22:26, Ordatious wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:35:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> well at a few cents a piece of plastic who is really that bothered?
>
> Future generations!
>
Indeed, they will need something to put in their museums to remind them
of the 20th century, other than wind turbines...!

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:10:05 -0500, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com>
> wrote:
>> It may be the smoking that cuts down on the life of your optical drives.
>
> Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically lasts about
> 6 months for me before it has to be replaced.

Ever tried just cleaning the lens?

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 04:55:46 -0500, Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> wrote:

> David W. Hodgins wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:10:05 -0500, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com>
>> wrote:
>>> It may be the smoking that cuts down on the life of your optical drives.
>>
>> Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically lasts about
>> 6 months for me before it has to be replaced.
>
> Ever tried just cleaning the lens?

Yes. It doesn't take much nicotine and/or fine smoke particles getting on the lens
to interfere with it. Once it gets on, it' very difficult to remove.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>
> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating system on
> a server.

You still have to have an installation to boot from.

On 12/18/21 9:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 19/12/2021 00.47, Rich wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
>>>> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file,
>>>> then setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device
>>>> where the .img is mounted.
>>>
>>> Yes, I thought so.
>>>
>>> Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
>>> disk?  vmdk or whatever?
>>
>> The answer would likely be yes, provided someone wrote the relevant
>> converter.
>>
>> And a minor bit of searching reveals that qemu might do some level of
>> "conversions":
>>
>> https://jima.cat/convert-raw-dd-image-to-vmdk-vmware/
>
> There might be some facility to imitate USB sticks. Or there should.

But why go to all this trouble ? ISOs are so EASY. You can
install them to disks or VMs with NO PROBLEMS, no extra
steps.

It works, it's easy, it's sure. No loop mounts, no IMG
file messes.

1667p1 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
> On 12/18/21 9:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > On 19/12/2021 00.47, Rich wrote:
> >> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>> On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
> >>>> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file,
> >>>> then setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device
> >>>> where the .img is mounted.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I thought so.
> >>>
> >>> Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
> >>> disk?  vmdk or whatever?
> >>
> >> The answer would likely be yes, provided someone wrote the relevant
> >> converter.
> >>
> >> And a minor bit of searching reveals that qemu might do some level of
> >> "conversions":
> >>
> >> https://jima.cat/convert-raw-dd-image-to-vmdk-vmware/
> >
> > There might be some facility to imitate USB sticks. Or there should.

> But why go to all this trouble ? ISOs are so EASY. You can
> install them to disks or VMs with NO PROBLEMS, no extra
> steps.

> It works, it's easy, it's sure. No loop mounts, no IMG
> file messes.

Ditto. Also, it's hard to boot from USB drives in VMs. :(
--
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O 19/12/21 ás 00:47, Rich escribiu:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
>>> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file,
>>> then setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device
>>> where the .img is mounted.
>>
>> Yes, I thought so.
>>
>> Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
>> disk? vmdk or whatever?
>
> The answer would likely be yes, provided someone wrote the relevant
> converter.
>
> And a minor bit of searching reveals that qemu might do some level of
> "conversions":
>
> https://jima.cat/convert-raw-dd-image-to-vmdk-vmware/
>

VirtualBox does have a converter included in VBoxManage