On 24/12/2021 05.07, 1667p1 wrote:
> On 12/18/21 9:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 19/12/2021 00.47, Rich wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 18/12/2021 18.40, Rich wrote:
>>>>> Correctable, at least under Linux, by loop mounting the .img file,
>>>>> then setting up a VirtualBox vmdk file to point to the loop device
>>>>> where the .img is mounted.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I thought so.
>>>>
>>>> Could an image file be converted to something that VB can import as a
>>>> disk?  vmdk or whatever?
>>>
>>> The answer would likely be yes, provided someone wrote the relevant
>>> converter.
>>>
>>> And a minor bit of searching reveals that qemu might do some level of
>>> "conversions":
>>>
>>> https://jima.cat/convert-raw-dd-image-to-vmdk-vmware/
>>
>> There might be some facility to imitate USB sticks. Or there should.
>
>
>   But why go to all this trouble ? ISOs are so EASY. You can
>   install them to disks or VMs with NO PROBLEMS, no extra
>   steps.
>
>   It works, it's easy, it's sure. No loop mounts, no IMG
>   file messes.

Extra steps are needed simply because those virtualisation environments
don't have the hooks. ISOs are so easy precisely because the same
virtualisation environments created the hooks.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

"David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> writes:

> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 04:55:46 -0500, Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:10:05 -0500, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> It may be the smoking that cuts down on the life of your optical drives.
>>>
>>> Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically lasts about
>>> 6 months for me before it has to be replaced.
>>
>> Ever tried just cleaning the lens?
>
> Yes. It doesn't take much nicotine and/or fine smoke particles getting on the lens
> to interfere with it. Once it gets on, it' very difficult to remove.
>

It's not actually nicotine that's the problem. It's the tars in tobacco
smoke that make the mess. They coat everything in a brown, smelly,
sticky film - which also coats your lungs, throat, teeth, fingers, etc.

I quit 20 years ago and it was one of the hardest things I've ever
done. I'm very glad I was able to finally quit.

On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>
>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating system on
>> a server.
>
>   You still have to have an installation to boot from.

No, you don't. That's the whole point of network booting. The PXE boot
ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment

On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>
>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating system on
>>> a server.
>>
>>   You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>
> No, you don't. That's the whole point of network booting. The PXE boot
> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>

Fetches it from the magical realm ?

Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
the latter, you need a really fast connection given
the sheer size of most modern distros.

I'd rather have a local copy, preferably one actually
installed on a partition in the box. Fast, and better
control.

On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>>
>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>> system on
>>>> a server.
>>>
>>>    You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>
>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The PXE boot
>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>
>
>   Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>
>   Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>   you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>   someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>   the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>   the sheer size of most modern distros.

Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server. But those few
files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete installation of
that same OS on that netboot server. One netboot server, running nearly
any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.

For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a TFTP daemon.

https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image

That's hardly the same as having to install Debian on one server in
order to netboot it on others.

Netbooting (and network installation) has been common on commercial Unix
systems forever. It is widely supported by Linux, the BSDs, AIX,
Solaris, etc.

>   I'd rather have a local copy, preferably one actually
>   installed on a partition in the box. Fast, and better
>   control.

That's still the end goal. If you look back through this sub-thread,
Carlos E. R. asked about booting/installing servers from USB or CD. I
mentioned that netbooting was also an option in that context. I.e., to
install an OS to a local disk, you can first netboot the installer so
that you don't need either a boot CD or USB stick to install from.

When you've got dozens or hundreds of servers to install in a data
center, netbooting is much quicker than going machine to machine with
either a boot CD or USB device.

Nobody was suggesting netbooting for routine operation. (Even though it
can be done.)

On 27/12/2021 02.34, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>>>
>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>> system on
>>>>> a server.
>>>>
>>>>    You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>
>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The PXE boot
>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>
>>
>>   Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>
>>   Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>   you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>   someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>   the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>   the sheer size of most modern distros.
>
> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server. But those few
> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete installation of
> that same OS on that netboot server. One netboot server, running nearly
> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>
> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a TFTP daemon.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>
> That's hardly the same as having to install Debian on one server in
> order to netboot it on others.
>
> Netbooting (and network installation) has been common on commercial Unix
> systems forever. It is widely supported by Linux, the BSDs, AIX,
> Solaris, etc.
>
>>   I'd rather have a local copy, preferably one actually
>>   installed on a partition in the box. Fast, and better
>>   control.
>
> That's still the end goal. If you look back through this sub-thread,
> Carlos E. R. asked about booting/installing servers from USB or CD. I
> mentioned that netbooting was also an option in that context. I.e., to
> install an OS to a local disk, you can first netboot the installer so
> that you don't need either a boot CD or USB stick to install from.
>
> When you've got dozens or hundreds of servers to install in a data
> center, netbooting is much quicker than going machine to machine with
> either a boot CD or USB device.
>
> Nobody was suggesting netbooting for routine operation. (Even though it
> can be done.)

I worked at a place (using Windows) that they used some kind of remote
booting the machines. If you booted locally, the machines could not
access the network, they became isolated. That netbooting was somekind
if high security system, a technician told me later (I wasn't working
there in any technical capacity, so not privy to internal knowledge).

It was a curious thing, I have forgotten the details.

The bios was configured to remote booting.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@personalprojects.net> writes:

> No, you don't. That's the whole point of network booting. The PXE boot
> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.

So, what would be a convenient environment for offering netbooting
today, in a "server"? Long ago, Knoppix had a button or menu entry with
"start terminal server" or something like that which started up
everything needed. There was one config file to edit, to specify what to
boot.

I remember it was very handy for some X series Thinkpads with empty hard
drives and PXE as the only other boot option.

On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>>>
>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>> system on
>>>>> a server.
>>>>
>>>>    You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>
>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The PXE boot
>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>
>>
>>   Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>
>>   Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>   you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>   someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>   the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>   the sheer size of most modern distros.
>
> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server. But those few
> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete installation of
> that same OS on that netboot server. One netboot server, running nearly
> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>
> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a TFTP daemon.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image

So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
My compilers ? My GIMP ? Sorry, while you might be
barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
37k file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
and that can be a good gigabyte depending.

The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
It has to be *somewhere* and installed in harmony with
the kernel. So, there IS a de-facto installation out
there somewhere. Maybe you can push updates to all
clients at the same time (the Russians can do that
for you too) or just update the de-facto install
as a whole.

So, what's the point ? May as well just have it ALL on
yer local box. Sure, you can redirect the usual system
folders to a network share, but again the STUFF there
needs to be coordinated with the kernel and gcc version
and such.

Hmm ... grub2 can be tweaked to load an ISO, think a
customized live distro, just like it can load something
installed in one of your disk partitions. Dunno how
well that works over a network though - access to the
share won't be there until the SMB stuff comes up.

> That's hardly the same as having to install Debian on one server in
> order to netboot it on others.
>
> Netbooting (and network installation) has been common on commercial Unix
> systems forever. It is widely supported by Linux, the BSDs, AIX,
> Solaris, etc.
>
>>   I'd rather have a local copy, preferably one actually
>>   installed on a partition in the box. Fast, and better
>>   control.
>
> That's still the end goal. If you look back through this sub-thread,
> Carlos E. R. asked about booting/installing servers from USB or CD. I
> mentioned that netbooting was also an option in that context. I.e., to
> install an OS to a local disk, you can first netboot the installer so
> that you don't need either a boot CD or USB stick to install from.
>
> When you've got dozens or hundreds of servers to install in a data
> center, netbooting is much quicker than going machine to machine with
> either a boot CD or USB device.
>
> Nobody was suggesting netbooting for routine operation. (Even though it
> can be done.)
>

On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>> system on
>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>
>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>
>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The PXE
>>>> boot
>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>
>>>
>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>
>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>
>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But those few
>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete installation of
>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server, running nearly
>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>
>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a TFTP
>> daemon.
>>
>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>
>
>   So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>   My compilers ? My GIMP ?

On the network.

> Sorry, while you might be
>   barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>   37k

M, not K.

> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>   and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>
>   The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>   upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.

So?

The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the net.
You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by knowing the
correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even start it, then
leave for another machine, leave the first one running. Or install a
dozen machines at the same time.

The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 29/12/2021 01:33, 1667p1 wrote:

>   So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>   My compilers ? My GIMP ? Sorry, while you might be
>   barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>   37k file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>   and that can be a good gigabyte depending.

On the main server, mounted under NFS

>
>   The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>   upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>   It has to be *somewhere* and installed in harmony with
>   the kernel. So, there IS a de-facto installation out
>   there somewhere. Maybe you can push updates to all
>   clients at the same time (the Russians can do that
>   for you too) or just update the de-facto install
>   as a whole.
>
That was the model yes. Pioneered by SUN.

net boot lightweight diskless or small disk workstations and mount /bin
and /usr and /home off central servers - sort of the early versoin of a
chrome book with a local cloud

>   So, what's the point ? May as well just have it ALL on
>   yer local box. Sure, you can redirect the usual system
>   folders to a network share, but again the STUFF there
>   needs to be coordinated with the kernel and gcc version
>   and such.
>
Because to upgrade a room full of 150 traders all running the same code
was simply too expensive

--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

On 2021-12-28 20:33, 1667p1 wrote:
>
>   So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>   My compilers ? My GIMP ? Sorry, while you might be
>   barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>   37k file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>   and that can be a good gigabyte depending.

That's all in the same place it is with any other installation.

You're still missing the point that netbooting was mentioned solely as a
way to launch the installer, as an alternative to CD or USB stick. You
don't routinely boot the installer from CD or USB for day-to-day use, do
you? No. Same applies to netbooting.

>   So, what's the point ?

To conveniently install on dozens or hundreds of machines without having
to go around the data center tediously inserting a boot CD or USB stick
into each and every one.

That's the other point you keep missing: we're not talking about a
single home computer or even a small number. We're talking about large
deployments.

You keep ranting about your own personal use case which has nothing to
do with what was being discussed. Nobody was suggesting you netboot
your desktop. And nobody was suggesting netbooting for routine
operation, either. Netboot, netinstall, repeat until the whole data
center is running.

On 12/17/21 16:00, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:25:12 -0500, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2021 20.23, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:08:14 -0500, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
>>> wrote:
>>>> The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
>>>> Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
>>>> for more.
>>>
>>> Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with
>>> cheap usb drives that had less capacity or speed than they were
>>> supposed to have, I've never encountered problems with them. I still
>>> have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology DT101 G2 usb drive that
>>> I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it still
>>> works fine.

Last batch of 8GB flash drives that I bought was a 10-pack on Amazon two
years ago, for around $2.50US each. I only bought those because the
5-pack I bought the year before wasn't enough. I haven't used them as
much yet as Dave has used the one he cited, but some of them have been
overwritten at least 25-30 times with no errors.
>>
>> That is not that surprising. It is only 100 write operations.
>>
>> But, for example, opening an office document directly on a stick wears
>> it more.
>
> Most of the iso images being tested were live iso images with a persistence
> file system on the usb stick, so a lot more than just the 100 writes.
>
I used to use optical media, but for me it had two problems. For one, I
discovered that while commercially-prepared media has an excellent
lifetime, home-burned media is less reliable over time. I'm not a
smoker, so I don't have the same problems that Dave has with burner
life, but still I find optical media to be FAR less reliable than usb
flash drives. So much so that my last desktop build doesn't even have an
optical drive, and I pulled the unused optical drive out of my laptop
and replaced it with a much-more-often used second hard drive.

But the main reason I switched to usb sticks was that DVDs were just
too. Damned. Slow. Slow to burn, especially RW types, and slow to use,
compared to usb.

> Just fyi, I'm the leader of the qa team for Mageia linux.
>
And I'm one of the deputy leaders of that QA team. As such, when we are
testing proposed images before a potential release, I don't want to wait
forever while a candidate DVD installs the distro on each piece of my
hardware.

TJ

On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The PXE
>>>>> boot
>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>
>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>
>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But those few
>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete installation of
>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server, running nearly
>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>
>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a TFTP
>>> daemon.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>
>>
>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>
> On the network.
>
>> Sorry, while you might be
>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>    37k
>
> M, not K.
>
>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>
>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>
> So?
>
> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the net.
> You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by knowing the
> correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even start it, then
> leave for another machine, leave the first one running. Or install a
> dozen machines at the same time.
>
> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.

So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.

How limited ... and slow ...........

Don't think I'll do that.

An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
way to go. Snappy.

Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
much "fatigue" factor.

On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The
>>>>>> PXE boot
>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>
>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>
>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But those few
>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>> installation of
>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server, running
>>>> nearly
>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>
>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a TFTP
>>>> daemon.
>>>>
>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>
>>>
>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>
>> On the network.
>>
>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>    37k
>>
>> M, not K.
>>
>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>
>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>
>> So?
>>
>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the
>> net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by
>> knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even
>> start it, then leave for another machine, leave the first one running.
>> Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>
>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>
>   So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.

No. There is a server somewhere.

>
>   How limited ... and slow ...........
>
>   Don't think I'll do that.
>
>   An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>   way to go. Snappy.
>
>   Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>   in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>   much "fatigue" factor.

You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred machines
in a single building..

And no, it is not slow.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 12/30/21 5:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from
>>>>>>>>>> usb?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The
>>>>>>> PXE boot
>>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But those
>>>>> few
>>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>>> installation of
>>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server, running
>>>>> nearly
>>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
>>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a
>>>>> TFTP daemon.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>>
>>> On the network.
>>>
>>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>>    37k
>>>
>>> M, not K.
>>>
>>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>>
>>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>>
>>> So?
>>>
>>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the
>>> net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by
>>> knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even
>>> start it, then leave for another machine, leave the first one
>>> running. Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>>
>>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>>
>>    So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.
>
> No. There is a server somewhere.
>
>>
>>    How limited ... and slow ...........
>>
>>    Don't think I'll do that.
>>
>>    An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>>    way to go. Snappy.
>>
>>    Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>>    in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>>    much "fatigue" factor.
>
> You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred machines
> in a single building..
>
> And no, it is not slow.

A little quicker now with gigabit+ networking. In the
"old" days though ... gee, even a gigbit/s is about 100mb/s
after overhead while a SATA-III drive is six times faster
(in theory) and an M2 card even quicker for a variety of
reasons.

Anyway, I'd consider your "server somewhere" the rough
equivalent of a distribution - executables with a matched
kernel (and a few other things).

I do understand the "too many installations" issue, how
to deal depends on your environment and how you set up
the update process. Most Linux distros these days CAN
auto-update, and if they can't you can make them do so.
A few distros - I think Oracle and RHEL and maybe FreeBSD -
are rigged so you never even need to reboot them even after
extensive system-file updates (you *should* though :-)

If you have a shop with 100 Winders boxes, well, each
will autoinstall what it can and pester the user to
reboot to finish the job. This largely undermines the
value of a network-based single "distribution" unless
the boss is a hyper-control-freak.

Alas, having all your cookies in one jar is also a threat ...
lets the hacks (or errors) damage everyone at once. Similar
issue to pushing updates to all Winders boxes - seize control
of that and you can poison everyone - al-la the SolarWinds
debacle and others. A more "atomic" set up CAN be strength
and resilence these days.

And let's not even talk about having all your vital
operational servers and such as VMs on a single box
"to save money" .........

TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
> On 12/17/21 16:00, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:25:12 -0500, Carlos E. R.
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2021 20.23, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:08:14 -0500, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
>>>>> Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
>>>>> for more.
>>>>
>>>> Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with
>>>> cheap usb drives that had less capacity or speed than they were
>>>> supposed to have, I've never encountered problems with them. I still
>>>> have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology DT101 G2 usb drive that
>>>> I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it still
>>>> works fine.
>
> Last batch of 8GB flash drives that I bought was a 10-pack on Amazon two
> years ago, for around $2.50US each. I only bought those because the
> 5-pack I bought the year before wasn't enough. I haven't used them as
> much yet as Dave has used the one he cited, but some of them have been
> overwritten at least 25-30 times with no errors.

I just did a quick search and it seems the sticks available for
those prices on Amazon are all no-name sorts like the one I bought
from China which died after the first write. Nice to know that some
people have better luck, but I'd be worried about relying on it.
CDs/DVD at least show progressive signs of failing, flash media
often just stops working entirely one day.

>>> That is not that surprising. It is only 100 write operations.
>>>
>>> But, for example, opening an office document directly on a stick wears
>>> it more.
>>
>> Most of the iso images being tested were live iso images with a persistence
>> file system on the usb stick, so a lot more than just the 100 writes.
>>
> I used to use optical media, but for me it had two problems. For one, I
> discovered that while commercially-prepared media has an excellent
> lifetime, home-burned media is less reliable over time. I'm not a
> smoker, so I don't have the same problems that Dave has with burner
> life, but still I find optical media to be FAR less reliable than usb
> flash drives. So much so that my last desktop build doesn't even have an
> optical drive, and I pulled the unused optical drive out of my laptop
> and replaced it with a much-more-often used second hard drive.

Sure, I don't use CDs for much other than booting OSs these days
either. But I usually burn new releases regularly enough that
disc longevity isn't much of a problem for this usage case.

> But the main reason I switched to usb sticks was that DVDs were just
> too. Damned. Slow. Slow to burn, especially RW types, and slow to use,
> compared to usb.

That's true, I try to stick to CD releases, which admittedly has
been a battle for the last few years. The problem of downloading
something as big as a DVD image is really more of an issue for me
there though, eg. last time I tried to download an official Devuan
DVD image it took hours and turned out to get corrupted at one
of the time-out/connection-retrys anyway (I tried burning it
anyway, but it wouldn't boot).

Star Linux is my latest pick for a way to get Devuan onto a CD, it
has all that I want for a Devuan installation anyway (except
the latest stable release, at the moment):
https://sourceforge.net/projects/linnix/

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 31/12/2021 03.33, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
>> On 12/17/21 16:00, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:25:12 -0500, Carlos E. R.
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

....

>> But the main reason I switched to usb sticks was that DVDs were just
>> too. Damned. Slow. Slow to burn, especially RW types, and slow to use,
>> compared to usb.
>
> That's true, I try to stick to CD releases, which admittedly has
> been a battle for the last few years. The problem of downloading
> something as big as a DVD image is really more of an issue for me
> there though, eg. last time I tried to download an official Devuan
> DVD image it took hours and turned out to get corrupted at one
> of the time-out/connection-retrys anyway (I tried burning it
> anyway, but it wouldn't boot).

Use a metalink downloader and metalink url, if available. Such as aria2c.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 31/12/2021 01.59, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
> On 12/30/21 5:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from
>>>>>>>>>>> usb?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The
>>>>>>>> PXE boot
>>>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via TFTP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But
>>>>>> those few
>>>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>>>> installation of
>>>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server, running
>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to unpack
>>>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a
>>>>>> TFTP daemon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>>>
>>>> On the network.
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>>>    37k
>>>>
>>>> M, not K.
>>>>
>>>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>>>
>>>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>>>
>>>> So?
>>>>
>>>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the
>>>> net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by
>>>> knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even
>>>> start it, then leave for another machine, leave the first one
>>>> running. Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>>>
>>>    So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.
>>
>> No. There is a server somewhere.
>>
>>>
>>>    How limited ... and slow ...........
>>>
>>>    Don't think I'll do that.
>>>
>>>    An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>>>    way to go. Snappy.
>>>
>>>    Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>>>    in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>>>    much "fatigue" factor.
>>
>> You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred
>> machines in a single building..
>>
>> And no, it is not slow.
>
>   A little quicker now with gigabit+ networking. In the
>   "old" days though ... gee, even a gigbit/s is about 100mb/s
>   after overhead while a SATA-III drive is six times faster
>   (in theory) and an M2 card even quicker for a variety of
>   reasons.

Considering that we are talking install, not daily processing, as the
alternative is using a CD/DVD or USB stick, then the network can be faster.

And considering we are installing a hundred machines, meaning a hundred
CDs that have to be burned, or alternatively install them in succession.
Slow.

Man, booting over the network and installations are actually done on
places with many machines, by many admins. They must have their reasons,
they are not dumb people.

>
>   Anyway, I'd consider your "server somewhere" the rough
>   equivalent of a distribution - executables with a matched
>   kernel (and a few other things).

Nope, it can be a Windows server. Just an ftp or http server. Not an
installation.

>
>   I do understand the "too many installations" issue, how
>   to deal depends on your environment and how you set up
>   the update process. Most Linux distros these days CAN
>   auto-update, and if they can't you can make them do so.
>   A few distros - I think Oracle and RHEL and maybe FreeBSD -
>   are rigged so you never even need to reboot them even after
>   extensive system-file updates (you *should* though :-)
>
>   If you have a shop with 100 Winders boxes, well, each
>   will autoinstall what it can and pester the user to
>   reboot to finish the job. This largely undermines the
>   value of a network-based single "distribution" unless
>   the boss is a hyper-control-freak.

For that, you can use installation definition files. Depends on the distro.

>
>   Alas, having all your cookies in one jar is also a threat ...
>   lets the hacks (or errors) damage everyone at once. Similar
>   issue to pushing updates to all Winders boxes - seize control
>   of that and you can poison everyone - al-la the SolarWinds
>   debacle and others. A more "atomic" set up CAN be strength
>   and resilence these days.
>
>   And let's not even talk about having all your vital
>   operational servers and such as VMs on a single box
>   "to save money" .........

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 31/12/2021 12:38, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Considering that we are talking install, not daily processing, as the
> alternative is using a CD/DVD or USB stick, then the network can be faster.

Its massively faster to *install* the master centralised server that
everyone runs of.

If every machine has simply enough boot code to be able to boot from and
then mount the server, then boot speed will be a function of network
performance vis a vis local disk speed. And fi te server ahs multipla
gigabit interfacse, that can be fairly large,

The other advantage is that the desktops can be devoid of local data IO
- so no USB/disk/CDrom etc etc. With keyboard and mouse via the custom
PS/2 plug, and possibly USB code disabled, you have a really excellent
secure environment to do one simple set of things.

Like perhaps run a set of consoles onto a mainframe application to run
your bank

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On 12/30/21 21:33, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:

>
>> But the main reason I switched to usb sticks was that DVDs were just
>> too. Damned. Slow. Slow to burn, especially RW types, and slow to use,
>> compared to usb.
>
> That's true, I try to stick to CD releases, which admittedly has
> been a battle for the last few years. The problem of downloading
> something as big as a DVD image is really more of an issue for me
> there though, eg. last time I tried to download an official Devuan
> DVD image it took hours and turned out to get corrupted at one
> of the time-out/connection-retrys anyway (I tried burning it
> anyway, but it wouldn't boot).
>
Sounds like you don't have the most reliable or speediest of ISPs. I can
sympathize. I used to have one of those. I live in a rural area, and my
choices are limited, but they used to be even more so. For a while
there, all I had was a "fixed wireless" system as the most viable
option. They started off fine, reliable I mean, and the speed was so
much faster than the dial-up I replaced that I was fine with it. Then
they started to falter, just about the time that Spectrum started
hanging fiber cables by my house. I switched, and while it costs quite a
bit more, the reliability is worth it.

> Star Linux is my latest pick for a way to get Devuan onto a CD, it
> has all that I want for a Devuan installation anyway (except
> the latest stable release, at the moment):
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/linnix/
>
FWIW, Mageia offers a net-install iso that will easily fit onto a CD.
This sets you up to install from repositories on the Web. It can be used
with wired Internet connections, and as of Mageia 8, can also be used
with secure wireless connections. Once you are connected to the mirror
of your choice, you proceed much like you would from the install DVD.
One big advantage of this option is that it can install the latest
updates of the packages, updates that came along after the Classic" DVD
was produced. Getting those updates is an extra step if the "classic"
DVD is used for installation.

TJ

On 12/31/21 7:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 31/12/2021 01.59, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>> On 12/30/21 5:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>>> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or
>>>>>>>>>>>> from usb?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.  The
>>>>>>>>> PXE boot
>>>>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via
>>>>>>>>> TFTP.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But
>>>>>>> those few
>>>>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>>>>> installation of
>>>>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server, running
>>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to
>>>>>>> unpack
>>>>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a
>>>>>>> TFTP daemon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>>>>
>>>>> On the network.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>>>>    37k
>>>>>
>>>>> M, not K.
>>>>>
>>>>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>>>>
>>>>> So?
>>>>>
>>>>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the
>>>>> net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by
>>>>> knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even
>>>>> start it, then leave for another machine, leave the first one
>>>>> running. Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>>>>
>>>>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>>>>
>>>>    So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.
>>>
>>> No. There is a server somewhere.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>    How limited ... and slow ...........
>>>>
>>>>    Don't think I'll do that.
>>>>
>>>>    An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>>>>    way to go. Snappy.
>>>>
>>>>    Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>>>>    in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>>>>    much "fatigue" factor.
>>>
>>> You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred
>>> machines in a single building..
>>>
>>> And no, it is not slow.
>>
>>    A little quicker now with gigabit+ networking. In the
>>    "old" days though ... gee, even a gigbit/s is about 100mb/s
>>    after overhead while a SATA-III drive is six times faster
>>    (in theory) and an M2 card even quicker for a variety of
>>    reasons.
>
> Considering that we are talking install, not daily processing, as the
> alternative is using a CD/DVD or USB stick, then the network can be faster.
>
> And considering we are installing a hundred machines, meaning a hundred
> CDs that have to be burned, or alternatively install them in succession.
> Slow.
>
> Man, booting over the network and installations are actually done on
> places with many machines, by many admins. They must have their reasons,
> they are not dumb people.
>
>>
>>    Anyway, I'd consider your "server somewhere" the rough
>>    equivalent of a distribution - executables with a matched
>>    kernel (and a few other things).
>
> Nope, it can be a Windows server. Just an ftp or http server. Not an
> installation.
>
>>
>>    I do understand the "too many installations" issue, how
>>    to deal depends on your environment and how you set up
>>    the update process. Most Linux distros these days CAN
>>    auto-update, and if they can't you can make them do so.
>>    A few distros - I think Oracle and RHEL and maybe FreeBSD -
>>    are rigged so you never even need to reboot them even after
>>    extensive system-file updates (you *should* though :-)
>>
>>    If you have a shop with 100 Winders boxes, well, each
>>    will autoinstall what it can and pester the user to
>>    reboot to finish the job. This largely undermines the
>>    value of a network-based single "distribution" unless
>>    the boss is a hyper-control-freak.
>
> For that, you can use installation definition files. Depends on the distro.

Ummm ... we seem to be reading from two different scripts
here and talking past each other.

First off, as this is a linux group, let's forget Winders.

To run linux you first need the OS core to start. You can
indeed load it from a network location. I'm supposing it
actually runs on YOUR box - though you could be running
a very thin client and basically getting the equiv of
a remote virtual screen of it running on the server kinda
like with VNC or a local KVM virtual machine.

Once the OS core is going it loads in a bunch of other
stuff and drivers and such. Now you have your base OS
up to speed and are ready to run user apps.

All that "other stuff" and your user apps have to be
SOMEWHERE. They need to all be version-compatible.
So, "somewhere", locally or on a net drive, they have
to be there. To start, say, GIMP there are rather a
lot of files and it doesn't start instantly even if
it's on your local disk, much less over a network.

In my way of defining things, a "distribution" is, as
I said, a matched collection of kernel, os core and
applications. You may not have installed it all as
an integrated unit on the local box, but all the matched
parts have to be "somewhere".

Does any of that sound ridiculous to you so far ?
Just trying to make sure we are talking about the
same things.

On 01/01/2022 04.26, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
> On 12/31/21 7:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 31/12/2021 01.59, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>> On 12/30/21 5:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>>>> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from usb?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.
>>>>>>>>>> The PXE boot
>>>>>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via
>>>>>>>>>> TFTP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But
>>>>>>>> those few
>>>>>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>>>>>> installation of
>>>>>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server,
>>>>>>>> running nearly
>>>>>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to
>>>>>>>> unpack
>>>>>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a
>>>>>>>> TFTP daemon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>>>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the network.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>>>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>>>>>    37k
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M, not K.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>>>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>>>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from the
>>>>>> net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just by
>>>>>> knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could even
>>>>>> start it, then leave for another machine, leave the first one
>>>>>> running. Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>>>>>
>>>>>    So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> No. There is a server somewhere.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    How limited ... and slow ...........
>>>>>
>>>>>    Don't think I'll do that.
>>>>>
>>>>>    An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>>>>>    way to go. Snappy.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>>>>>    in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>>>>>    much "fatigue" factor.
>>>>
>>>> You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred
>>>> machines in a single building..
>>>>
>>>> And no, it is not slow.
>>>
>>>    A little quicker now with gigabit+ networking. In the
>>>    "old" days though ... gee, even a gigbit/s is about 100mb/s
>>>    after overhead while a SATA-III drive is six times faster
>>>    (in theory) and an M2 card even quicker for a variety of
>>>    reasons.
>>
>> Considering that we are talking install, not daily processing, as the
>> alternative is using a CD/DVD or USB stick, then the network can be
>> faster.
>>
>> And considering we are installing a hundred machines, meaning a
>> hundred CDs that have to be burned, or alternatively install them in
>> succession. Slow.
>>
>> Man, booting over the network and installations are actually done on
>> places with many machines, by many admins. They must have their
>> reasons, they are not dumb people.
>>
>>>
>>>    Anyway, I'd consider your "server somewhere" the rough
>>>    equivalent of a distribution - executables with a matched
>>>    kernel (and a few other things).
>>
>> Nope, it can be a Windows server. Just an ftp or http server. Not an
>> installation.
>>
>>>
>>>    I do understand the "too many installations" issue, how
>>>    to deal depends on your environment and how you set up
>>>    the update process. Most Linux distros these days CAN
>>>    auto-update, and if they can't you can make them do so.
>>>    A few distros - I think Oracle and RHEL and maybe FreeBSD -
>>>    are rigged so you never even need to reboot them even after
>>>    extensive system-file updates (you *should* though :-)
>>>
>>>    If you have a shop with 100 Winders boxes, well, each
>>>    will autoinstall what it can and pester the user to
>>>    reboot to finish the job. This largely undermines the
>>>    value of a network-based single "distribution" unless
>>>    the boss is a hyper-control-freak.
>>
>> For that, you can use installation definition files. Depends on the
>> distro.
>
>
>   Ummm ...  we seem to be reading from two different scripts
>   here and talking past each other.
>
>   First off, as this is a linux group, let's forget Winders.
>
>   To run linux you first need the OS core to start. You can
>   indeed load it from a network location. I'm supposing it
>   actually runs on YOUR box - though you could be running
>   a very thin client and basically getting the equiv of
>   a remote virtual screen of it running on the server kinda
>   like with VNC or a local KVM virtual machine.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can run the installation system
on any machine of a datacenter, booting from the LAN; and no, there
doesn't need to be any other install in the LAN. The boot server can be
running any operating system, it is irrelevant. It is just an FTP
server, not a Linux installation necesarily.

On 1/1/22 4:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 01/01/2022 04.26, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>> On 12/31/21 7:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 31/12/2021 01.59, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>>> On 12/30/21 5:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from usb?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an operating
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.
>>>>>>>>>>> The PXE boot
>>>>>>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot via
>>>>>>>>>>> TFTP.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But
>>>>>>>>> those few
>>>>>>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>>>>>>> installation of
>>>>>>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server,
>>>>>>>>> running nearly
>>>>>>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to
>>>>>>>>> unpack
>>>>>>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running a
>>>>>>>>> TFTP daemon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>>>>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the network.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>>>>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>>>>>>    37k
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> M, not K.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>>>>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>>>>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from
>>>>>>> the net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply, just
>>>>>>> by knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You could
>>>>>>> even start it, then leave for another machine, leave the first
>>>>>>> one running. Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. There is a server somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    How limited ... and slow ...........
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Don't think I'll do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>>>>>>    way to go. Snappy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>>>>>>    in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>>>>>>    much "fatigue" factor.
>>>>>
>>>>> You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred
>>>>> machines in a single building..
>>>>>
>>>>> And no, it is not slow.
>>>>
>>>>    A little quicker now with gigabit+ networking. In the
>>>>    "old" days though ... gee, even a gigbit/s is about 100mb/s
>>>>    after overhead while a SATA-III drive is six times faster
>>>>    (in theory) and an M2 card even quicker for a variety of
>>>>    reasons.
>>>
>>> Considering that we are talking install, not daily processing, as the
>>> alternative is using a CD/DVD or USB stick, then the network can be
>>> faster.
>>>
>>> And considering we are installing a hundred machines, meaning a
>>> hundred CDs that have to be burned, or alternatively install them in
>>> succession. Slow.
>>>
>>> Man, booting over the network and installations are actually done on
>>> places with many machines, by many admins. They must have their
>>> reasons, they are not dumb people.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Anyway, I'd consider your "server somewhere" the rough
>>>>    equivalent of a distribution - executables with a matched
>>>>    kernel (and a few other things).
>>>
>>> Nope, it can be a Windows server. Just an ftp or http server. Not an
>>> installation.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>    I do understand the "too many installations" issue, how
>>>>    to deal depends on your environment and how you set up
>>>>    the update process. Most Linux distros these days CAN
>>>>    auto-update, and if they can't you can make them do so.
>>>>    A few distros - I think Oracle and RHEL and maybe FreeBSD -
>>>>    are rigged so you never even need to reboot them even after
>>>>    extensive system-file updates (you *should* though :-)
>>>>
>>>>    If you have a shop with 100 Winders boxes, well, each
>>>>    will autoinstall what it can and pester the user to
>>>>    reboot to finish the job. This largely undermines the
>>>>    value of a network-based single "distribution" unless
>>>>    the boss is a hyper-control-freak.
>>>
>>> For that, you can use installation definition files. Depends on the
>>> distro.
>>
>>
>>    Ummm ...  we seem to be reading from two different scripts
>>    here and talking past each other.
>>
>>    First off, as this is a linux group, let's forget Winders.
>>
>>    To run linux you first need the OS core to start. You can
>>    indeed load it from a network location. I'm supposing it
>>    actually runs on YOUR box - though you could be running
>>    a very thin client and basically getting the equiv of
>>    a remote virtual screen of it running on the server kinda
>>    like with VNC or a local KVM virtual machine.
>
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that you can run the installation system
> on any machine of a datacenter, booting from the LAN; and no, there
> doesn't need to be any other install in the LAN. The boot server can be
> running any operating system, it is irrelevant. It is just an FTP
> server, not a Linux installation necesarily.
>
> It probably is a Linux server, but it may be a different distribution
> and different kernel than the machine that is being booted. Unrelated
> systems.

1.AAC0831 <z24ba6.net> wrote:
> On 12/31/21 7:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 31/12/2021 01.59, 1.AAC0831 wrote: For that, you can use
>> installation definition files. Depends on the distro.
>
> Ummm ... we seem to be reading from two different scripts here and
> talking past each other.

You *are* talking past each other.

You are talking about machines that netboot the OS that runs on the
machine while it is in normal use by users. With likely NFS mounting
the files the OS uses and the user's local files onto the same machine
(i.e., a "thin client" senario).

Carlos is talking about netbooting the installer for a distribution,
which then fetches the various files (rpm's, deb's, etc.) that make up
that distribution (i.e., Redhat, Debian, etc.) over the network to
install the OS onto the otherwise empty disk in the machine doing the
netboot. Once that machines empty disk has an OS installed, that
machine thereafter boots from its local disk and runs from its local
disk.

In a senario of a server farm, with possibly hundreds of "empty
machines" being installed in racks that then need an OS installation on
them, using netboot to boot the installer, and then fetching the
install packages (rpm's, deb's, etc.) over the network means no one has
to "walk the racks" with a DVD or USB stick to "install an OS" on each
new machine mounted into the racks.

On 02/01/2022 06.00, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
> On 1/1/22 4:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 01/01/2022 04.26, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>> On 12/31/21 7:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 31/12/2021 01.59, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>>>> On 12/30/21 5:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 30/12/2021 05.56, 1.AAC0831 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/28/21 8:57 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 29/12/2021 02.33, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/26/21 8:34 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-25 12:04, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/24/21 3:30 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-23 23:02, 1667p1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/17/21 5:03 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from usb?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Network booting is also an option when installing an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You still have to have an installation to boot from.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you don't.  That's the whole point of network booting.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The PXE boot
>>>>>>>>>>>> ROM on the network card fetches everything needed to boot
>>>>>>>>>>>> via TFTP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preboot_Execution_Environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Fetches it from the magical realm ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Sorry, but *somewhere* there's an installation. Either
>>>>>>>>>>>    you have it on a local server or you have to boot from
>>>>>>>>>>>    someone elses (probably ill-tuned) from the Net. If
>>>>>>>>>>>    the latter, you need a really fast connection given
>>>>>>>>>>>    the sheer size of most modern distros.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure the netboot files have to live on a (local) server.  But
>>>>>>>>>> those few
>>>>>>>>>> files are vastly different (and smaller) than a complete
>>>>>>>>>> installation of
>>>>>>>>>> that same OS on that netboot server.  One netboot server,
>>>>>>>>>> running nearly
>>>>>>>>>> any OS, can serve up dozens of other OSes for netbooting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For example, if you want to netboot Debian, all you need is to
>>>>>>>>>> unpack
>>>>>>>>>> one small (~37MB) netboot.tar.gz image on any machine running
>>>>>>>>>> a TFTP daemon.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall#Provide_the_boot_image
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    So where's my ZOOM client ? My LibreOffice ? My SSH ?
>>>>>>>>>    My compilers ? My GIMP ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the network.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, while you might be
>>>>>>>>>    barely able to boot a cut-back Linux kernel from a
>>>>>>>>>    37k
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> M, not K.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> file there's also all the STUFF that runs ON it
>>>>>>>>>    and that can be a good gigabyte depending.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    The net-boot might make it easier to do basic kernel
>>>>>>>>>    upgrades, but all that OTHER stuff needs updates too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The machine boots, then downloads and installs everything from
>>>>>>>> the net. You can install a new machine anytime, very simply,
>>>>>>>> just by knowing the correct incantation. Nothing to carry. You
>>>>>>>> could even start it, then leave for another machine, leave the
>>>>>>>> first one running. Or install a dozen machines at the same time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The machine might have no dvd, nor usb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    So there IS an "installation" out there, somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. There is a server somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    How limited ... and slow ...........
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Don't think I'll do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    An install on an M2 card in the box - that's the
>>>>>>>    way to go. Snappy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Unless it's seriously data-churning apps that are
>>>>>>>    in mind - magnetics are better for those, not so
>>>>>>>    much "fatigue" factor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You change opinion when you have to install or update a hundred
>>>>>> machines in a single building..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And no, it is not slow.
>>>>>
>>>>>    A little quicker now with gigabit+ networking. In the
>>>>>    "old" days though ... gee, even a gigbit/s is about 100mb/s
>>>>>    after overhead while a SATA-III drive is six times faster
>>>>>    (in theory) and an M2 card even quicker for a variety of
>>>>>    reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Considering that we are talking install, not daily processing, as
>>>> the alternative is using a CD/DVD or USB stick, then the network can
>>>> be faster.
>>>>
>>>> And considering we are installing a hundred machines, meaning a
>>>> hundred CDs that have to be burned, or alternatively install them in
>>>> succession. Slow.
>>>>
>>>> Man, booting over the network and installations are actually done on
>>>> places with many machines, by many admins. They must have their
>>>> reasons, they are not dumb people.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Anyway, I'd consider your "server somewhere" the rough
>>>>>    equivalent of a distribution - executables with a matched
>>>>>    kernel (and a few other things).
>>>>
>>>> Nope, it can be a Windows server. Just an ftp or http server. Not an
>>>> installation.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    I do understand the "too many installations" issue, how
>>>>>    to deal depends on your environment and how you set up
>>>>>    the update process. Most Linux distros these days CAN
>>>>>    auto-update, and if they can't you can make them do so.
>>>>>    A few distros - I think Oracle and RHEL and maybe FreeBSD -
>>>>>    are rigged so you never even need to reboot them even after
>>>>>    extensive system-file updates (you *should* though :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>    If you have a shop with 100 Winders boxes, well, each
>>>>>    will autoinstall what it can and pester the user to
>>>>>    reboot to finish the job. This largely undermines the
>>>>>    value of a network-based single "distribution" unless
>>>>>    the boss is a hyper-control-freak.
>>>>
>>>> For that, you can use installation definition files. Depends on the
>>>> distro.
>>>
>>>
>>>    Ummm ...  we seem to be reading from two different scripts
>>>    here and talking past each other.
>>>
>>>    First off, as this is a linux group, let's forget Winders.
>>>
>>>    To run linux you first need the OS core to start. You can
>>>    indeed load it from a network location. I'm supposing it
>>>    actually runs on YOUR box - though you could be running
>>>    a very thin client and basically getting the equiv of
>>>    a remote virtual screen of it running on the server kinda
>>>    like with VNC or a local KVM virtual machine.
>>
>>
>> The point I'm trying to make is that you can run the installation
>> system on any machine of a datacenter, booting from the LAN; and no,
>> there doesn't need to be any other install in the LAN. The boot server
>> can be running any operating system, it is irrelevant. It is just an
>> FTP server, not a Linux installation necesarily.
>>
>> It probably is a Linux server, but it may be a different distribution
>> and different kernel than the machine that is being booted. Unrelated
>> systems.
>
>   I understand that, a PXE server can be set up in Linux
>   or Winders.
>
>   WHAT you're booting, WHERE all the associated files are,
>   my question remains the same - "Why ?".