On 6/4/2021 3:20 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
> ...that's about 1,700 out of the 2,0029 deaths per million people in
> Indiana.
>
> And with the alleged "draconian" restrictions that you liken to a prison
> (which ones specifically, Liarboy, or do you just want to admit you made
> that part up?), BC has had only 1,709 deaths, or just 337 per million.
>
> So I hope the families and friends of the nearly 1,700 more per million
> you've killed...
>
> ...the 11,390 people...
>
> ...I hope they share your feelings about the sacrifice that they've made
> so 135,000 "screaming fans" could watch a car race.
>
> I'm not really seeing how anyone could be proud of this.
>
>
> On 2021-06-04 2:04 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 3:16:33 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-30 11:45 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 1:38:11 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-05-30 10:10 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>> You whimpering crybaby Canucks hunkered down at home watching the
>>>>>> race today? 135,000 rabid American race fans are there in person.
>>>>>> That’s us, land of the free and home of the brave.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And the many thousands more dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many do you think might catch COVID-19 at Indy, Tom.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many is too many to you?
>>>>
>>>> They are adults. We have been living with this pandemic for well
>>>> over a year. They know the risk. Who are you to judge? You got it.
>>>> I’m not judging you.
>>>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> "crybaby Canucks hunkered down at home" wasn't a judgement?
>>
>> No, that's a fact.
>>
>> Meanwhile, BC is still locked down under the draconian May 28
>> restrictions that resemble what you would read about for a prison. I
>> defy anyone to read and understand all of it. I note that those
>> restrictions did not keep Alan Baker totally safe.
>>
>> Across the border, the land of the (relatively) free, COVID signage is
>> quickly disappearing, and life is getting back to normal. 135,000
>> screaming fans cheered on Helio in a thrilling race finish. Summer
>> concerts at numerous local sites are back. We have tickets to 9 of
>> those at Symphony on the Prairie. July 4 fireworks are back. The
>> private high school nearby already has outdoor seating set up for this
>> weekend's graduation. They hosted an open house for prospective
>> students and parents this past week. I was just over to Home Depot and
>> all COVID signage is gone. Office workers are returning to their
>> places of employment. We are canceling supplementary unemployment
>> insurance and reinstating requirements for search for work
>> documentation in some states with labor shortages. A group from our
>> church has plans to go to Greece this summer. That's just a few examples.
>>
>> AND, Indiana and U.S. COVID cases and deaths are on the decline, and
>> have been for some time. Yes, we paid a price, but we also benefited,
>> from looser restrictions. Even when the Democrats took the presidency
>> and effective control of Congress the restrictions trajectory did not
>> change. There was not even much of a debate in most states. We as a
>> country highly value freedom, even at a cost. Bash us if you like, but
>> that's the way it is.
>>
>

Based on my experience the "freedom" argument is most often used by
right wing nutjob Trumpers.

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 8:14:43 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-15 3:05 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> >> On 2021-06-10 9:14 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-06-09 6:06 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 2:22:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2021-06-08 11:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 1:33:07 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 9:32 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> As for the 500 race, where is the spike in cases?
> >>>>>>>>> It's been 10 days ago, and the trend is still down
> >>>>>>>>> despite 1,165 cases reported on June 6, most of which
> >>>>>>>>> were a batch of historical data that were not
> >>>>>>>>> back-dated on the state COVID website's graph. But we
> >>>>>>>>> can fix that. Go
> >>>>>>>>> tohttps://hub.mph.in.gov/dataset/covid-19-case-trend/resource/182b6742-edac-442d-8eeb-62f96b17773e
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>
> and download the Excel data. Go to the last column and do a 7 day MA
> >>>>>>>>> on positive tests by date of specimen collection.
> >>>>>>>>> Then graph it. I'll save you the
> >>>>>>>>> trouble.https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>
> Ask Johns Hopkins. You've heard of them, right?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>
> Focus in on the data from after the last local peak on April
> >>>>>>>> 14...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ...and notice that what had been a steady downward
> >>>>>>>> trend for an entire month suddenly stopped...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ...on May 30th.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Remind me:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What day was the Indy 500 run this year?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> May 30 for the race. Then we got a dump of historical
> >>>>>>> positive cases that were all loaded into the system on
> >>>>>>> June 2. 1161 is the total reported for the day on the
> >>>>>>> website graph. Most of those cases occurred well before
> >>>>>>> June 2, and distort the recent 7 day moving average. What
> >>>>>>> you are seeing is not real. That "flattening" will go
> >>>>>>> away at the end of the week when June 2 drops out of the
> >>>>>>> 7 day window. In fact, on June 11 you will see a false
> >>>>>>> picture of a 100+ case drop in the average.
> >>>>>> So your argument is that you know better than Johns
> >>>>>> Hopkins, is it, Liarboy?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here is the quote on that historical case addition from
> >>>>>>> the state site under Historical Changes: "6/03/2021 : A
> >>>>>>> batch of historical negative and positive test results
> >>>>>>> added 16,492 historical tests administered, 7,082 tested
> >>>>>>> individuals, and 765 historical cases to today's counts.
> >>>>>>> These cases are not included in the new positive counts
> >>>>>>> but have been added to the total positive cases." These
> >>>>>>> announcements pertain to the data released on that date
> >>>>>>> for the day before. The statement is somewhat
> >>>>>>> contradictory. The first sentence says that 765 cases
> >>>>>>> were added to today's counts. The second sentence seems
> >>>>>>> to contradict that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The actual count reported for June 2 was 1161-765=396 and
> >>>>>>> is consistent with the days before and after.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So if you look at the case numbers by the date the
> >>>>>>> specimen was collected you get this:
> >>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> Sorry, but I've seen you manipulate data before.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It's a more realistic picture, and shows the decline
> >>>>>>> absent the batch of 765 historical case data reported as
> >>>>>>> of June 2.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm not happy that the state does not go to the trouble
> >>>>>>> to backdate positive case reports on their public-facing
> >>>>>>> site. But, they don't.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Let's move the goalposts and look at U.S. versus Canada
> >>>>>>> June 6 7 day MA case data. Cases are from the Bing site
> >>>>>>> case data:
> >>>>>> I can see why you'd want to move the goalposts...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The John's Hopkins data is an exact copy of the data on the
> >>>>> Indiana site. It also contains the one day June 2 spike of
> >>>>> cases referenced in the Indiana site quote I copied into my
> >>>>> post. That one day spike is an artifact created by not
> >>>>> backdating a batch of historical cases received on June 2.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Alan, I also gave you a link to the state data site. You can
> >>>>> download the "COVID-19 STATEWIDE TEST, CASE, AND DEATH
> >>>>> TRENDS" file from the supplied link and see for yourself but
> >>>>> you won't do that. Do you think I can manipulate the data on
> >>>>> that site? Just like you Liarboy to ignore clear evidence
> >>>>> that you are wrong.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are way out of your league here. I look at the Indiana
> >>>>> numbers every day. Do you?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You can sure see why I looked at the bigger picture. It
> >>>>> paints Canada in a very different light. Flawed as it was,
> >>>>> the U.S. approach is paying recent dividends in higher
> >>>>> induced + acquired immunity than Canada. I will not argue the
> >>>>> point that it came at a high cost.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You present Canada as a wonderful, egalitarian, society that
> >>>>> takes care of its people. It's not always. Not that America
> >>>>> is anywhere near perfect either, but:
> >>>>> https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> US: Approx. 613,000 deaths or 1,840 deaths per million people.
> >>>>
> >>>> Canada: Approx. 27,000 deaths or 686 deaths per million.
> >>>
> >>> Did I not just say we paid a high cost for our approach to COVID?
> >>> Can you comprehend that deaths is not the only metric to measure
> >>> success?
> >>>
> >>> Go look at the Indiana case numbers as of June 9. The 7 day MA
> >>> dropped from 439 on the 8th to 325 on the 9th. The 325 is
> >>> consistent with the numbers over the last week. So I ask again,
> >>> where is the post-500 race surge?
> >> 'Federal guidelines advise that states wait until they experience
> >> a downward trajectory of documented cases within a 14-day period
> >> before proceeding to a phased opening. In the state-specific view
> >> of the graph, this two-week period is highlighted in orange if
> >> cases are trending upward, or green if they are trending down.'
> >>
> >> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
> >>
> >> What colour is highlighting, Liarboy.
> >>>
> >>> Then look at the deaths graph. See that recent trend. Is it up
> >>> or down?
> >>>
> >> Deaths trail cases by quite a bit.
> >
> > Did you even look at the graph? Cases have been declining for months
> > with a short uptick. As of June 30 all statewide restrictions will
> > end.
> >
> > Don’t rely on secondary data. Go to the source.
> > https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm
> >
> > Deaths do lag cases. Those are declining too, along with cases.
> > Deaths are likely to not increase with declining cases. Indiana cases
> > are the lowest since last spring and deaths the lowest since the very
> > beginning of the pandemic.
> As HH already pointed out, you had an uptick. Completely as I predicted.
> >
> > So, Alan, it’s now over two weeks since the Indy 500. Where’s the
> > case surge? In fact we have over the last 3 weeks taken down almost
> > all mask and social distancing signs. We boarded 2 million airline
> > passengers one day last week. In 2 weeks I’ll go to an outdoor
> > concert featuring the Symphony performing Beatles. A rocking good
> > time. Have fun sitting at home looking out your condo window.
> 13,752 people are dead from your twisted idea of "fun", Liarboy, versus
> only 1,734 here in BC. Your population is about 6.8 million, ours is
> about 5.2 million. So you make sure you tell the more than 11,400 people
> who've died more than have died here (accounting for differences in
> population) how much "fun" you're having. Be sure to send them all a
> personal note.
>
> As for how I'll be spending my time, you have no clue, and that is a
> deliberate choice, so you can go right on telling lies about how not
> "free" we are.

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 9:47:00 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
> On 6/4/2021 3:20 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
> > ...that's about 1,700 out of the 2,0029 deaths per million people in
> > Indiana.
> >
> > And with the alleged "draconian" restrictions that you liken to a prison
> > (which ones specifically, Liarboy, or do you just want to admit you made
> > that part up?), BC has had only 1,709 deaths, or just 337 per million.
> >
> > So I hope the families and friends of the nearly 1,700 more per million
> > you've killed...
> >
> > ...the 11,390 people...
> >
> > ...I hope they share your feelings about the sacrifice that they've made
> > so 135,000 "screaming fans" could watch a car race.
> >
> > I'm not really seeing how anyone could be proud of this.
> >
> >
> > On 2021-06-04 2:04 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 3:16:33 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> >>> On 2021-05-30 11:45 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 1:38:11 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> >>>>> On 2021-05-30 10:10 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>> You whimpering crybaby Canucks hunkered down at home watching the
> >>>>>> race today? 135,000 rabid American race fans are there in person.
> >>>>>> That’s us, land of the free and home of the brave.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> And the many thousands more dead.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How many do you think might catch COVID-19 at Indy, Tom.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How many is too many to you?
> >>>>
> >>>> They are adults. We have been living with this pandemic for well
> >>>> over a year. They know the risk. Who are you to judge? You got it.
> >>>> I’m not judging you.
> >>>>
> >>> Really?
> >>>
> >>> "crybaby Canucks hunkered down at home" wasn't a judgement?
> >>
> >> No, that's a fact.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, BC is still locked down under the draconian May 28
> >> restrictions that resemble what you would read about for a prison. I
> >> defy anyone to read and understand all of it. I note that those
> >> restrictions did not keep Alan Baker totally safe.
> >>
> >> Across the border, the land of the (relatively) free, COVID signage is
> >> quickly disappearing, and life is getting back to normal. 135,000
> >> screaming fans cheered on Helio in a thrilling race finish. Summer
> >> concerts at numerous local sites are back. We have tickets to 9 of
> >> those at Symphony on the Prairie. July 4 fireworks are back. The
> >> private high school nearby already has outdoor seating set up for this
> >> weekend's graduation. They hosted an open house for prospective
> >> students and parents this past week. I was just over to Home Depot and
> >> all COVID signage is gone. Office workers are returning to their
> >> places of employment. We are canceling supplementary unemployment
> >> insurance and reinstating requirements for search for work
> >> documentation in some states with labor shortages. A group from our
> >> church has plans to go to Greece this summer. That's just a few examples.
> >>
> >> AND, Indiana and U.S. COVID cases and deaths are on the decline, and
> >> have been for some time. Yes, we paid a price, but we also benefited,
> >> from looser restrictions. Even when the Democrats took the presidency
> >> and effective control of Congress the restrictions trajectory did not
> >> change. There was not even much of a debate in most states. We as a
> >> country highly value freedom, even at a cost. Bash us if you like, but
> >> that's the way it is.
> >>
> >
> Based on my experience the "freedom" argument is most often used by
> right wing nutjob Trumpers.

That would not be me. I’m more of a Ronald Reagan or Harry Truman fan.

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 6:05:18 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> > > …
> > > Deaths trail cases by quite a bit.
> IIRC, it had been a bit over 22 days.
> > Did you even look at the graph? Cases have been declining for months
> > with a short uptick.
> Oh, so an uptick ~2 weeks after Indy?
> Wasn’t that the point?
> > As of June 30 all statewide restrictions will end.
> Contingent on that uptick not continuing..?
> > Deaths do lag cases. Those are declining too, along with cases.
> > Deaths are likely to not increase with declining cases.
> Except for the uptick…right?
> > So, Alan, it’s now over two weeks since the Indy 500. Where’s the
> > case surge?
> Didn’t you already admit to an uptick, albeit currently small?
>
> > … In 2 weeks I’ll go to an outdoor concert featuring the Symphony
> > performing Beatles. A rocking good time.
> I’m going this week; the Nerds.
> > Have fun sitting at home looking out your condo window.
> Given how Canada is ~3 months behind the US in vaccinations,
> it only makes sense that different precautions may be merited,
> even when their case rates are better than what the US was at
> that level of vaccination.
>
>
> -hh

The uptick I was referring to was in April. Since then cases have trended down and now deaths are following that same trend. As are hospital admissions and census. Face it, the pandemic is fading in the face of disappearing restrictions. Why people think this is bad news is beyond the pale.

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 11:47:45 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 7:58:25 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 6:05:18 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> > > > …
> > > > Deaths trail cases by quite a bit.
> > IIRC, it had been a bit over 22 days.
> > > Did you even look at the graph? Cases have been declining for months
> > > with a short uptick.
> > Oh, so an uptick ~2 weeks after Indy?
> > Wasn’t that the point?
> > > As of June 30 all statewide restrictions will end.
> > Contingent on that uptick not continuing..?
> > > Deaths do lag cases. Those are declining too, along with cases.
> > > Deaths are likely to not increase with declining cases.
> > Except for the uptick…right?
> > > So, Alan, it’s now over two weeks since the Indy 500. Where’s the
> > > case surge?
> > Didn’t you already admit to an uptick, albeit currently small?
> >
> > > … In 2 weeks I’ll go to an outdoor concert featuring the Symphony
> > > performing Beatles. A rocking good time.
> > I’m going this week; the Nerds.
> > > Have fun sitting at home looking out your condo window.
> > Given how Canada is ~3 months behind the US in vaccinations,
> > it only makes sense that different precautions may be merited,
> > even when their case rates are better than what the US was at
> > that level of vaccination.
>
> The uptick I was referring to was in April.

April? But your post a few minutes earlier said it was a "...one day spike was an outlier due to a batch of previously unreported cases."

> Since then cases have trended down and now deaths are following that same trend.
> As are hospital admissions and census.

As well they should, from increased vaccination rates, where the USA is months ahead
of Canada, yet you're not willing to factor that temporal element into your comparison attempts.

> Face it, the pandemic is fading in the face of disappearing restrictions.

Causally, that's backwards: restrictions are disappearing in the face of the pandemic case rate fading.

FYI, there's a distinct possibility that the Delta variant is going to cause another spike, as its
already ~10% of new cases in the USA. When it may peak is being guessed as in the 'Fall';
I'd personally gage that risk as possibly being ~six weeks after school resumes.
> Why people think this is bad news is beyond the pale.

No one said it is bad news: what was bad beyond the pale are your attempt to paint others
as inferior even despite them doing objectively better at the same vaccination point as the
USA had ~3 months ago.

....particularly when your own total per capita mortality rate shows that you've done much
worse over the course of the pandemic: "Congratulations, you're coming out faster because
you made the concious decision to allow your most vulnerable to die off faster." /s

-hh

On 2021-06-15 7:26 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 8:14:43 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-06-15 3:05 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, Alan Baker
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-06-10 9:14 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-06-09 6:06 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 2:22:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 11:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 1:33:07 PM UTC-4, Alan
>>>>>>>>> Baker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 9:32 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> As for the 500 race, where is the spike in
>>>>>>>>>>> cases? It's been 10 days ago, and the trend is
>>>>>>>>>>> still down despite 1,165 cases reported on June
>>>>>>>>>>> 6, most of which were a batch of historical data
>>>>>>>>>>> that were not back-dated on the state COVID
>>>>>>>>>>> website's graph. But we can fix that. Go
>>>>>>>>>>> tohttps://hub.mph.in.gov/dataset/covid-19-case-trend/resource/182b6742-edac-442d-8eeb-62f96b17773e
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
and download the Excel data. Go to the last column and do a 7 day MA
>>>>>>>>>>> on positive tests by date of specimen
>>>>>>>>>>> collection. Then graph it. I'll save you the
>>>>>>>>>>> trouble.https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
Ask Johns Hopkins. You've heard of them, right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>
Focus in on the data from after the last local peak on April
>>>>>>>>>> 14...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...and notice that what had been a steady downward
>>>>>>>>>> trend for an entire month suddenly stopped...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...on May 30th.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Remind me:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What day was the Indy 500 run this year?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> May 30 for the race. Then we got a dump of
>>>>>>>>> historical positive cases that were all loaded into
>>>>>>>>> the system on June 2. 1161 is the total reported for
>>>>>>>>> the day on the website graph. Most of those cases
>>>>>>>>> occurred well before June 2, and distort the recent 7
>>>>>>>>> day moving average. What you are seeing is not real.
>>>>>>>>> That "flattening" will go away at the end of the week
>>>>>>>>> when June 2 drops out of the 7 day window. In fact,
>>>>>>>>> on June 11 you will see a false picture of a 100+
>>>>>>>>> case drop in the average.
>>>>>>>> So your argument is that you know better than Johns
>>>>>>>> Hopkins, is it, Liarboy?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is the quote on that historical case addition
>>>>>>>>> from the state site under Historical Changes:
>>>>>>>>> "6/03/2021 : A batch of historical negative and
>>>>>>>>> positive test results added 16,492 historical tests
>>>>>>>>> administered, 7,082 tested individuals, and 765
>>>>>>>>> historical cases to today's counts. These cases are
>>>>>>>>> not included in the new positive counts but have been
>>>>>>>>> added to the total positive cases." These
>>>>>>>>> announcements pertain to the data released on that
>>>>>>>>> date for the day before. The statement is somewhat
>>>>>>>>> contradictory. The first sentence says that 765
>>>>>>>>> cases were added to today's counts. The second
>>>>>>>>> sentence seems to contradict that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The actual count reported for June 2 was 1161-765=396
>>>>>>>>> and is consistent with the days before and after.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So if you look at the case numbers by the date the
>>>>>>>>> specimen was collected you get this:
>>>>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, but I've seen you manipulate data before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a more realistic picture, and shows the decline
>>>>>>>>> absent the batch of 765 historical case data reported
>>>>>>>>> as of June 2.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not happy that the state does not go to the
>>>>>>>>> trouble to backdate positive case reports on their
>>>>>>>>> public-facing site. But, they don't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let's move the goalposts and look at U.S. versus
>>>>>>>>> Canada June 6 7 day MA case data. Cases are from the
>>>>>>>>> Bing site case data:
>>>>>>>> I can see why you'd want to move the goalposts...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The John's Hopkins data is an exact copy of the data on
>>>>>>> the Indiana site. It also contains the one day June 2
>>>>>>> spike of cases referenced in the Indiana site quote I
>>>>>>> copied into my post. That one day spike is an artifact
>>>>>>> created by not backdating a batch of historical cases
>>>>>>> received on June 2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alan, I also gave you a link to the state data site. You
>>>>>>> can download the "COVID-19 STATEWIDE TEST, CASE, AND
>>>>>>> DEATH TRENDS" file from the supplied link and see for
>>>>>>> yourself but you won't do that. Do you think I can
>>>>>>> manipulate the data on that site? Just like you Liarboy
>>>>>>> to ignore clear evidence that you are wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are way out of your league here. I look at the
>>>>>>> Indiana numbers every day. Do you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can sure see why I looked at the bigger picture. It
>>>>>>> paints Canada in a very different light. Flawed as it
>>>>>>> was, the U.S. approach is paying recent dividends in
>>>>>>> higher induced + acquired immunity than Canada. I will
>>>>>>> not argue the point that it came at a high cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You present Canada as a wonderful, egalitarian, society
>>>>>>> that takes care of its people. It's not always. Not that
>>>>>>> America is anywhere near perfect either, but:
>>>>>>> https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
US: Approx. 613,000 deaths or 1,840 deaths per million people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Canada: Approx. 27,000 deaths or 686 deaths per million.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did I not just say we paid a high cost for our approach to
>>>>> COVID? Can you comprehend that deaths is not the only metric
>>>>> to measure success?
>>>>>
>>>>> Go look at the Indiana case numbers as of June 9. The 7 day
>>>>> MA dropped from 439 on the 8th to 325 on the 9th. The 325 is
>>>>> consistent with the numbers over the last week. So I ask
>>>>> again, where is the post-500 race surge?
>>>> 'Federal guidelines advise that states wait until they
>>>> experience a downward trajectory of documented cases within a
>>>> 14-day period before proceeding to a phased opening. In the
>>>> state-specific view of the graph, this two-week period is
>>>> highlighted in orange if cases are trending upward, or green if
>>>> they are trending down.'
>>>>
>>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
>>>>
>>>> What colour is highlighting, Liarboy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then look at the deaths graph. See that recent trend. Is it
>>>>> up or down?
>>>>>
>>>> Deaths trail cases by quite a bit.
>>>
>>> Did you even look at the graph? Cases have been declining for
>>> months with a short uptick. As of June 30 all statewide
>>> restrictions will end.
>>>
>>> Don’t rely on secondary data. Go to the source.
>>> https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm
>>>
>>> Deaths do lag cases. Those are declining too, along with cases.
>>> Deaths are likely to not increase with declining cases. Indiana
>>> cases are the lowest since last spring and deaths the lowest
>>> since the very beginning of the pandemic.
>> As HH already pointed out, you had an uptick. Completely as I
>> predicted.
>>>
>>> So, Alan, it’s now over two weeks since the Indy 500. Where’s
>>> the case surge? In fact we have over the last 3 weeks taken down
>>> almost all mask and social distancing signs. We boarded 2 million
>>> airline passengers one day last week. In 2 weeks I’ll go to an
>>> outdoor concert featuring the Symphony performing Beatles. A
>>> rocking good time. Have fun sitting at home looking out your
>>> condo window.
>> 13,752 people are dead from your twisted idea of "fun", Liarboy,
>> versus only 1,734 here in BC. Your population is about 6.8 million,
>> ours is about 5.2 million. So you make sure you tell the more than
>> 11,400 people who've died more than have died here (accounting for
>> differences in population) how much "fun" you're having. Be sure to
>> send them all a personal note.
>>
>> As for how I'll be spending my time, you have no clue, and that is
>> a deliberate choice, so you can go right on telling lies about how
>> not "free" we are.
>
> And as I quoted from our state website that post race one day spike
> was an outlier due to a batch of previously unreported cases. That
> was not a real uptick. In fact, Hugh’s source showed a continuous
> trend down after the race.
>
> Are you free to travel to Manitoba with no restrictions?

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
.. ..
> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the population.

So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a good thing.

> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.

Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have a couple good options that were developed quickly.

On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
> ..
>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
>> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
>> immunize the population.
>
> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
> already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
> good thing.
>
>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did
>> not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
>
> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that
> were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have
> a couple good options that were developed quickly.
>

And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was the very
reason for imposing restrictions...

....that have saved countless lives in many countries...

....just not in the US.

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 7:38:06 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-15 7:26 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 8:14:43 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> >> On 2021-06-15 3:05 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-06-10 9:14 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2021-06-09 6:06 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 2:22:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 11:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 1:33:07 PM UTC-4, Alan
> >>>>>>>>> Baker wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 9:32 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> As for the 500 race, where is the spike in
> >>>>>>>>>>> cases? It's been 10 days ago, and the trend is
> >>>>>>>>>>> still down despite 1,165 cases reported on June
> >>>>>>>>>>> 6, most of which were a batch of historical data
> >>>>>>>>>>> that were not back-dated on the state COVID
> >>>>>>>>>>> website's graph. But we can fix that. Go
> >>>>>>>>>>> tohttps://hub.mph.in.gov/dataset/covid-19-case-trend/resource/182b6742-edac-442d-8eeb-62f96b17773e
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> and download the Excel data. Go to the last column and do a 7 day MA
> >>>>>>>>>>> on positive tests by date of specimen
> >>>>>>>>>>> collection. Then graph it. I'll save you the
> >>>>>>>>>>> trouble.https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> Ask Johns Hopkins. You've heard of them, right?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Focus in on the data from after the last local peak on April
> >>>>>>>>>> 14...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ...and notice that what had been a steady downward
> >>>>>>>>>> trend for an entire month suddenly stopped...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ...on May 30th.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Remind me:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What day was the Indy 500 run this year?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> May 30 for the race. Then we got a dump of
> >>>>>>>>> historical positive cases that were all loaded into
> >>>>>>>>> the system on June 2. 1161 is the total reported for
> >>>>>>>>> the day on the website graph. Most of those cases
> >>>>>>>>> occurred well before June 2, and distort the recent 7
> >>>>>>>>> day moving average. What you are seeing is not real.
> >>>>>>>>> That "flattening" will go away at the end of the week
> >>>>>>>>> when June 2 drops out of the 7 day window. In fact,
> >>>>>>>>> on June 11 you will see a false picture of a 100+
> >>>>>>>>> case drop in the average.
> >>>>>>>> So your argument is that you know better than Johns
> >>>>>>>> Hopkins, is it, Liarboy?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Here is the quote on that historical case addition
> >>>>>>>>> from the state site under Historical Changes:
> >>>>>>>>> "6/03/2021 : A batch of historical negative and
> >>>>>>>>> positive test results added 16,492 historical tests
> >>>>>>>>> administered, 7,082 tested individuals, and 765
> >>>>>>>>> historical cases to today's counts. These cases are
> >>>>>>>>> not included in the new positive counts but have been
> >>>>>>>>> added to the total positive cases." These
> >>>>>>>>> announcements pertain to the data released on that
> >>>>>>>>> date for the day before. The statement is somewhat
> >>>>>>>>> contradictory. The first sentence says that 765
> >>>>>>>>> cases were added to today's counts. The second
> >>>>>>>>> sentence seems to contradict that.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The actual count reported for June 2 was 1161-765=396
> >>>>>>>>> and is consistent with the days before and after.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So if you look at the case numbers by the date the
> >>>>>>>>> specimen was collected you get this:
> >>>>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>
> Sorry, but I've seen you manipulate data before.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It's a more realistic picture, and shows the decline
> >>>>>>>>> absent the batch of 765 historical case data reported
> >>>>>>>>> as of June 2.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm not happy that the state does not go to the
> >>>>>>>>> trouble to backdate positive case reports on their
> >>>>>>>>> public-facing site. But, they don't.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Let's move the goalposts and look at U.S. versus
> >>>>>>>>> Canada June 6 7 day MA case data. Cases are from the
> >>>>>>>>> Bing site case data:
> >>>>>>>> I can see why you'd want to move the goalposts...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The John's Hopkins data is an exact copy of the data on
> >>>>>>> the Indiana site. It also contains the one day June 2
> >>>>>>> spike of cases referenced in the Indiana site quote I
> >>>>>>> copied into my post. That one day spike is an artifact
> >>>>>>> created by not backdating a batch of historical cases
> >>>>>>> received on June 2.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alan, I also gave you a link to the state data site. You
> >>>>>>> can download the "COVID-19 STATEWIDE TEST, CASE, AND
> >>>>>>> DEATH TRENDS" file from the supplied link and see for
> >>>>>>> yourself but you won't do that. Do you think I can
> >>>>>>> manipulate the data on that site? Just like you Liarboy
> >>>>>>> to ignore clear evidence that you are wrong.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are way out of your league here. I look at the
> >>>>>>> Indiana numbers every day. Do you?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You can sure see why I looked at the bigger picture. It
> >>>>>>> paints Canada in a very different light. Flawed as it
> >>>>>>> was, the U.S. approach is paying recent dividends in
> >>>>>>> higher induced + acquired immunity than Canada. I will
> >>>>>>> not argue the point that it came at a high cost.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You present Canada as a wonderful, egalitarian, society
> >>>>>>> that takes care of its people. It's not always. Not that
> >>>>>>> America is anywhere near perfect either, but:
> >>>>>>> https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> US: Approx. 613,000 deaths or 1,840 deaths per million people.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Canada: Approx. 27,000 deaths or 686 deaths per million.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Did I not just say we paid a high cost for our approach to
> >>>>> COVID? Can you comprehend that deaths is not the only metric
> >>>>> to measure success?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Go look at the Indiana case numbers as of June 9. The 7 day
> >>>>> MA dropped from 439 on the 8th to 325 on the 9th. The 325 is
> >>>>> consistent with the numbers over the last week. So I ask
> >>>>> again, where is the post-500 race surge?
> >>>> 'Federal guidelines advise that states wait until they
> >>>> experience a downward trajectory of documented cases within a
> >>>> 14-day period before proceeding to a phased opening. In the
> >>>> state-specific view of the graph, this two-week period is
> >>>> highlighted in orange if cases are trending upward, or green if
> >>>> they are trending down.'
> >>>>
> >>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
> >>>>
> >>>> What colour is highlighting, Liarboy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Then look at the deaths graph. See that recent trend. Is it
> >>>>> up or down?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Deaths trail cases by quite a bit.
> >>>
> >>> Did you even look at the graph? Cases have been declining for
> >>> months with a short uptick. As of June 30 all statewide
> >>> restrictions will end.
> >>>
> >>> Don’t rely on secondary data. Go to the source.
> >>> https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm
> >>>
> >>> Deaths do lag cases. Those are declining too, along with cases.
> >>> Deaths are likely to not increase with declining cases. Indiana
> >>> cases are the lowest since last spring and deaths the lowest
> >>> since the very beginning of the pandemic.
> >> As HH already pointed out, you had an uptick. Completely as I
> >> predicted.
> >>>
> >>> So, Alan, it’s now over two weeks since the Indy 500. Where’s
> >>> the case surge? In fact we have over the last 3 weeks taken down
> >>> almost all mask and social distancing signs. We boarded 2 million
> >>> airline passengers one day last week. In 2 weeks I’ll go to an
> >>> outdoor concert featuring the Symphony performing Beatles. A
> >>> rocking good time. Have fun sitting at home looking out your
> >>> condo window.
> >> 13,752 people are dead from your twisted idea of "fun", Liarboy,
> >> versus only 1,734 here in BC. Your population is about 6.8 million,
> >> ours is about 5.2 million. So you make sure you tell the more than
> >> 11,400 people who've died more than have died here (accounting for
> >> differences in population) how much "fun" you're having. Be sure to
> >> send them all a personal note.
> >>
> >> As for how I'll be spending my time, you have no clue, and that is
> >> a deliberate choice, so you can go right on telling lies about how
> >> not "free" we are.
> >
> > And as I quoted from our state website that post race one day spike
> > was an outlier due to a batch of previously unreported cases. That
> > was not a real uptick. In fact, Hugh’s source showed a continuous
> > trend down after the race.
> >
> > Are you free to travel to Manitoba with no restrictions?
> Don't know. But then you don't either, so...
> > Are you free
> > to race with spectators present?
> I'm free to race. Spectators were a no until a couple of days a go. Now
> it's up to 50.
> > Can you attend an outdoor concert?
> Don't know. But since the restrictions we've put in place have saved a
> lot of lives, I'm fine if I can't yet.
> > Can you host 10 friends for a dinner party?
> Nope. But we can have dinner parties. Excellent hair-splitting.
>
> And again: lives have been saved because of this; MANY lives.
> > Can you shop at a grocery
> > store without wearing a mask?
> Why is that such a burden? Is your precious "freedom" so threatened by
> wearing a mask in order to save lives?
> > Can a church have a service with more
> > than 10% capacity present? I could go on and on. We can do all these
> > things.
> And many, many people are dead because of it.
> >
> > Your definition of COVID damage is one dimensional to the extreme.
> Death is that way.
> >
> > Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural
> > immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how many
> > future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the
> > population. Remember, when all this started there was no clear path
> > to vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It
> > did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> No, one cannot ask that. Because vaccinations are now providing the same
> "natural immunity".
>
> As for "no sure thing", your way has killed many, many more peple.
> >
> > The latest U.S. 7 day average is 2,718 cases per day. Canada? 1,059.
> You are wildly wrong.
> > The population ratio? 8.9:1 Corrected for population Canada has the
> > U.S. equivalent of 9,429 cases per day at the current time. Deaths?
> > U.S. has 357 per day 7 day average. Canada? 18. Canada has generally
> > had a lower death rate per case than the U.S. and that is still true.
> > But as you point out, deaths lag cases.
> The US 7-day moving average is 13,603 cases per day:
>
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/>
>
> Canada's is 1,240:
>
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/canada/>
>
> Corrected for ratio, that's 11,036.
>
> Let's look at deaths:
>
> 354 per day in the US; 26 in Canada.
>
> Corrected for population that's 354 to 231.
> >
> > The good news is that around the world cases and deaths are generally
> > declining. Immunity is winning, as it almost always has. The bad news
> > is that this virus is likely to become an endemic part of the fabric
> > of the communicable episodic disease complex that has been killing us
> > since our population started gathering and living in large
> > communities. We will not eradicate it. It’s not polio or smallpox.
> Says the trained immunologist...
> >
> > Now go watch TV. I’m at Camp Atterbury tonight. Tomorrow I will
> > rejoin the CAP team running a private pilot flight school for high
> > school students. My job is tracking the finances, not flying. We are
> > not wearing masks, we are not social distancing, we are all
> > vaccinated.
> >
> Bully for you!
>
> I'm sure the 11,000 extra dead are happy for their sacrifice, and their
> families too!

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:05:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
> > ..
> >> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
> >> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
> >> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
> >> immunize the population.
> >
> > So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
> > already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
> > good thing.
> >
> >> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
> >> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did
> >> not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> >
> > Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that
> > were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have
> > a couple good options that were developed quickly.
> >
> And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was the very
> reason for imposing restrictions...
>
> ...that have saved countless lives in many countries...
>
> ...just not in the US.

We had restrictions prior to vaccines too. They did save lives.

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 9:24:40 PM UTC-4, ed wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> . ..
> > Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the population.
> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a good thing.
> > Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have a couple good options that were developed quickly.

Your last point is exactly what I'm arguing. In the past we did nothing approaching COVID-induced restrictions on freedoms. We pretty much let diseases run wild until they died out by themselves or we found a cure or a prevention. Witness smallpox, polio, mumps and measles for just a few examples. We are still fighting malaria in the 3th world. For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with varied approaches and results. Maybe we will learn something.

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 7:38:06 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-15 7:26 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 8:14:43 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> >> On 2021-06-15 3:05 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-06-10 9:14 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2021-06-09 6:06 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 2:22:28 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 11:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 1:33:07 PM UTC-4, Alan
> >>>>>>>>> Baker wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-08 9:32 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> As for the 500 race, where is the spike in
> >>>>>>>>>>> cases? It's been 10 days ago, and the trend is
> >>>>>>>>>>> still down despite 1,165 cases reported on June
> >>>>>>>>>>> 6, most of which were a batch of historical data
> >>>>>>>>>>> that were not back-dated on the state COVID
> >>>>>>>>>>> website's graph. But we can fix that. Go
> >>>>>>>>>>> tohttps://hub.mph.in.gov/dataset/covid-19-case-trend/resource/182b6742-edac-442d-8eeb-62f96b17773e
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> and download the Excel data. Go to the last column and do a 7 day MA
> >>>>>>>>>>> on positive tests by date of specimen
> >>>>>>>>>>> collection. Then graph it. I'll save you the
> >>>>>>>>>>> trouble.https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> Ask Johns Hopkins. You've heard of them, right?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Focus in on the data from after the last local peak on April
> >>>>>>>>>> 14...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ...and notice that what had been a steady downward
> >>>>>>>>>> trend for an entire month suddenly stopped...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ...on May 30th.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Remind me:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What day was the Indy 500 run this year?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> May 30 for the race. Then we got a dump of
> >>>>>>>>> historical positive cases that were all loaded into
> >>>>>>>>> the system on June 2. 1161 is the total reported for
> >>>>>>>>> the day on the website graph. Most of those cases
> >>>>>>>>> occurred well before June 2, and distort the recent 7
> >>>>>>>>> day moving average. What you are seeing is not real.
> >>>>>>>>> That "flattening" will go away at the end of the week
> >>>>>>>>> when June 2 drops out of the 7 day window. In fact,
> >>>>>>>>> on June 11 you will see a false picture of a 100+
> >>>>>>>>> case drop in the average.
> >>>>>>>> So your argument is that you know better than Johns
> >>>>>>>> Hopkins, is it, Liarboy?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Here is the quote on that historical case addition
> >>>>>>>>> from the state site under Historical Changes:
> >>>>>>>>> "6/03/2021 : A batch of historical negative and
> >>>>>>>>> positive test results added 16,492 historical tests
> >>>>>>>>> administered, 7,082 tested individuals, and 765
> >>>>>>>>> historical cases to today's counts. These cases are
> >>>>>>>>> not included in the new positive counts but have been
> >>>>>>>>> added to the total positive cases." These
> >>>>>>>>> announcements pertain to the data released on that
> >>>>>>>>> date for the day before. The statement is somewhat
> >>>>>>>>> contradictory. The first sentence says that 765
> >>>>>>>>> cases were added to today's counts. The second
> >>>>>>>>> sentence seems to contradict that.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The actual count reported for June 2 was 1161-765=396
> >>>>>>>>> and is consistent with the days before and after.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So if you look at the case numbers by the date the
> >>>>>>>>> specimen was collected you get this:
> >>>>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/141BSLo9HbCAslRaHUFP5iPt05_9yH_wh/view?usp=sharing
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>
> Sorry, but I've seen you manipulate data before.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It's a more realistic picture, and shows the decline
> >>>>>>>>> absent the batch of 765 historical case data reported
> >>>>>>>>> as of June 2.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm not happy that the state does not go to the
> >>>>>>>>> trouble to backdate positive case reports on their
> >>>>>>>>> public-facing site. But, they don't.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Let's move the goalposts and look at U.S. versus
> >>>>>>>>> Canada June 6 7 day MA case data. Cases are from the
> >>>>>>>>> Bing site case data:
> >>>>>>>> I can see why you'd want to move the goalposts...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The John's Hopkins data is an exact copy of the data on
> >>>>>>> the Indiana site. It also contains the one day June 2
> >>>>>>> spike of cases referenced in the Indiana site quote I
> >>>>>>> copied into my post. That one day spike is an artifact
> >>>>>>> created by not backdating a batch of historical cases
> >>>>>>> received on June 2.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alan, I also gave you a link to the state data site. You
> >>>>>>> can download the "COVID-19 STATEWIDE TEST, CASE, AND
> >>>>>>> DEATH TRENDS" file from the supplied link and see for
> >>>>>>> yourself but you won't do that. Do you think I can
> >>>>>>> manipulate the data on that site? Just like you Liarboy
> >>>>>>> to ignore clear evidence that you are wrong.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are way out of your league here. I look at the
> >>>>>>> Indiana numbers every day. Do you?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You can sure see why I looked at the bigger picture. It
> >>>>>>> paints Canada in a very different light. Flawed as it
> >>>>>>> was, the U.S. approach is paying recent dividends in
> >>>>>>> higher induced + acquired immunity than Canada. I will
> >>>>>>> not argue the point that it came at a high cost.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You present Canada as a wonderful, egalitarian, society
> >>>>>>> that takes care of its people. It's not always. Not that
> >>>>>>> America is anywhere near perfect either, but:
> >>>>>>> https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> US: Approx. 613,000 deaths or 1,840 deaths per million people.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Canada: Approx. 27,000 deaths or 686 deaths per million.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Did I not just say we paid a high cost for our approach to
> >>>>> COVID? Can you comprehend that deaths is not the only metric
> >>>>> to measure success?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Go look at the Indiana case numbers as of June 9. The 7 day
> >>>>> MA dropped from 439 on the 8th to 325 on the 9th. The 325 is
> >>>>> consistent with the numbers over the last week. So I ask
> >>>>> again, where is the post-500 race surge?
> >>>> 'Federal guidelines advise that states wait until they
> >>>> experience a downward trajectory of documented cases within a
> >>>> 14-day period before proceeding to a phased opening. In the
> >>>> state-specific view of the graph, this two-week period is
> >>>> highlighted in orange if cases are trending upward, or green if
> >>>> they are trending down.'
> >>>>
> >>>> <https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states/indiana>
> >>>>
> >>>> What colour is highlighting, Liarboy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Then look at the deaths graph. See that recent trend. Is it
> >>>>> up or down?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Deaths trail cases by quite a bit.
> >>>
> >>> Did you even look at the graph? Cases have been declining for
> >>> months with a short uptick. As of June 30 all statewide
> >>> restrictions will end.
> >>>
> >>> Don’t rely on secondary data. Go to the source.
> >>> https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm
> >>>
> >>> Deaths do lag cases. Those are declining too, along with cases.
> >>> Deaths are likely to not increase with declining cases. Indiana
> >>> cases are the lowest since last spring and deaths the lowest
> >>> since the very beginning of the pandemic.
> >> As HH already pointed out, you had an uptick. Completely as I
> >> predicted.
> >>>
> >>> So, Alan, it’s now over two weeks since the Indy 500. Where’s
> >>> the case surge? In fact we have over the last 3 weeks taken down
> >>> almost all mask and social distancing signs. We boarded 2 million
> >>> airline passengers one day last week. In 2 weeks I’ll go to an
> >>> outdoor concert featuring the Symphony performing Beatles. A
> >>> rocking good time. Have fun sitting at home looking out your
> >>> condo window.
> >> 13,752 people are dead from your twisted idea of "fun", Liarboy,
> >> versus only 1,734 here in BC. Your population is about 6.8 million,
> >> ours is about 5.2 million. So you make sure you tell the more than
> >> 11,400 people who've died more than have died here (accounting for
> >> differences in population) how much "fun" you're having. Be sure to
> >> send them all a personal note.
> >>
> >> As for how I'll be spending my time, you have no clue, and that is
> >> a deliberate choice, so you can go right on telling lies about how
> >> not "free" we are.
> >
> > And as I quoted from our state website that post race one day spike
> > was an outlier due to a batch of previously unreported cases. That
> > was not a real uptick. In fact, Hugh’s source showed a continuous
> > trend down after the race.
> >
> > Are you free to travel to Manitoba with no restrictions?
> Don't know. But then you don't either, so...
> > Are you free
> > to race with spectators present?
> I'm free to race. Spectators were a no until a couple of days a go. Now
> it's up to 50.
> > Can you attend an outdoor concert?
> Don't know. But since the restrictions we've put in place have saved a
> lot of lives, I'm fine if I can't yet.
> > Can you host 10 friends for a dinner party?
> Nope. But we can have dinner parties. Excellent hair-splitting.
>
> And again: lives have been saved because of this; MANY lives.
> > Can you shop at a grocery
> > store without wearing a mask?
> Why is that such a burden? Is your precious "freedom" so threatened by
> wearing a mask in order to save lives?
> > Can a church have a service with more
> > than 10% capacity present? I could go on and on. We can do all these
> > things.
> And many, many people are dead because of it.
> >
> > Your definition of COVID damage is one dimensional to the extreme.
> Death is that way.
> >
> > Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural
> > immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how many
> > future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the
> > population. Remember, when all this started there was no clear path
> > to vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It
> > did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> No, one cannot ask that. Because vaccinations are now providing the same
> "natural immunity".
>
> As for "no sure thing", your way has killed many, many more peple.
> >
> > The latest U.S. 7 day average is 2,718 cases per day. Canada? 1,059.
> You are wildly wrong.
> > The population ratio? 8.9:1 Corrected for population Canada has the
> > U.S. equivalent of 9,429 cases per day at the current time. Deaths?
> > U.S. has 357 per day 7 day average. Canada? 18. Canada has generally
> > had a lower death rate per case than the U.S. and that is still true.
> > But as you point out, deaths lag cases.
> The US 7-day moving average is 13,603 cases per day:
>
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/>
>
> Canada's is 1,240:
>
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/canada/>
>
> Corrected for ratio, that's 11,036.
>
> Let's look at deaths:
>
> 354 per day in the US; 26 in Canada.
>
> Corrected for population that's 354 to 231.
> >
> > The good news is that around the world cases and deaths are generally
> > declining. Immunity is winning, as it almost always has. The bad news
> > is that this virus is likely to become an endemic part of the fabric
> > of the communicable episodic disease complex that has been killing us
> > since our population started gathering and living in large
> > communities. We will not eradicate it. It’s not polio or smallpox.
> Says the trained immunologist...
> >
> > Now go watch TV. I’m at Camp Atterbury tonight. Tomorrow I will
> > rejoin the CAP team running a private pilot flight school for high
> > school students. My job is tracking the finances, not flying. We are
> > not wearing masks, we are not social distancing, we are all
> > vaccinated.
> >
> Bully for you!
>
> I'm sure the 11,000 extra dead are happy for their sacrifice, and their
> families too!

On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 9:24:40 PM UTC-4, ed wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > . ..
> > > Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural
> > > immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how
> > > many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the population.
> >
> > So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having already infected -
> > and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a good thing.

If the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic is used as a guide, 50 million dead when the world
population was only 1.8 Billion ... approximately 2.7% of the world population. Ignoring
advances in medical care, that would put the US deaths at ~9M ... and similarly, if one
assumes a ~66% improvement in survival rates due to medical advances, then that's
still ~3M dead in the USA

> > > Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to vaccines. So-called
> > > experts were saying it would take years. It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> >
> > Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that were in development
> > haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have a couple good options that were developed quickly.
>
> Your last point is exactly what I'm arguing.

But also choosing to ignore the time element to its diffusion, which hasn't been uniform
even within the US, let alone worldwide.

> In the past we did nothing approaching COVID-induced restrictions on freedoms.
> We pretty much let diseases run wild until they died out by themselves or we found
> a cure or a prevention.

Incorrect: there were interventions by the State to try to limit the spread. Go back and check
the Spanish Flu history on public restrictions differences of IIRC Philadelphia vs St Louis...if
memory serves, one banned public gathering for a parade and the other didn't ... and the outcome
was a difference in mortality rates ~6 weeks later.

> Witness smallpox, polio, mumps and measles for just a few examples.

Walter Reed experiments on soldiers in Panama to research Yellow Fever ... 1899:

<https://www.britannica.com/biography/Walter-Reed>
<https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/politics-participation-walter-reeds-yellow-fever-experiments/2009-04>

> We are still fighting malaria in the 3th world.

There were also massive outbreaks of Yellow Fever in the USA in Philadelphia & NYC
in the 1790s...

> For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with varied approaches and results.
> Maybe we will learn something.

Applying even CoVid's Western medicine's 1.8% CFR to the world's current 7.6B population
means an additional 130 million dead, plus around a half billion more with chronic conditions
and/or disabilities. What would've been the economic impact of that?

-hh

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
> On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > ...
> > For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with varied approaches and results.
> > Maybe we will learn something.

> Applying even CoVid's Western medicine's 1.8% CFR to the world's current 7.6B population
> means an additional 130 million dead, plus around a half billion more with chronic conditions
> and/or disabilities. What would've been the economic impact of that?

Oh, and emerging information out of India is that they tried to ignore CoVid and may
have also done a cover-up ... which is being revealed by high level "excess deaths" tracking.

In a nutshell, they have tons of 'excess' deaths for which the only logical explanation is that they've
undercounted CoVid deaths. Suffice to say that if after analysis it is concluded as likely CoVid
attributable and added to counts as such, the current world mortality total for CoVid would go
way up. By how much depends on the post analysis; if the higher estimate of +4.4M pans out,
then world mortality to date would double to ~8M to date.

<https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/06/12/more-evidence-emerges-of-indias-true-death-toll-from-covid-19>

-hh

On 2021-06-20 9:24 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>> Corrected for population that's 354 to 231.
>>> The good news is that around the world cases and deaths are generally
>>> declining. Immunity is winning, as it almost always has. The bad news
>>> is that this virus is likely to become an endemic part of the fabric
>>> of the communicable episodic disease complex that has been killing us
>>> since our population started gathering and living in large
>>> communities. We will not eradicate it. It’s not polio or smallpox.
>> Says the trained immunologist...
>>> Now go watch TV. I’m at Camp Atterbury tonight. Tomorrow I will
>>> rejoin the CAP team running a private pilot flight school for high
>>> school students. My job is tracking the finances, not flying. We are
>>> not wearing masks, we are not social distancing, we are all
>>> vaccinated.
>>>
>> Bully for you!
>>
>> I'm sure the 11,000 extra dead are happy for their sacrifice, and their
>> families too!
> Please support all of your assertions with third party statistical facts relevant to each claim.

Do you deny that Indiana has had 14,000 (approx.) deaths from COVID-19?

<https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/indiana/>

Do you deny that Indiana's population is about 6.7 million?

<https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+indiana&oq=population+of+indiana&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0l9.5641j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>

Or do you deny that BC has only had about 1,740 deaths?

<https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989e3cda29297ded>

Or that the population of BC is about 5.1 million?

Or is it that you cannot do the relatively simple arithmetic that shows
that (14,000/6.7)/(1,740/5.1) is about 6.1?

And that if that is so, then if you had had BC's success in keeping its
people alive, you would have had only about (14000/6.1) 2,300 deaths?

Now surely, you can do the arithmetic of 14,000-2,300, right, Liarboy?

I'll stipulate that there are differences in population demographics
that might reduce the 11,700 figure somewhat, but by a significant
amount... ...no.

I've already looked at population demographics by age group, and they're
basically the same.

On 2021-06-20 9:25 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:05:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
>>> ..
>>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
>>>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
>>>> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
>>>> immunize the population.
>>>
>>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
>>> already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
>>> good thing.
>>>
>>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
>>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did
>>>> not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
>>>
>>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that
>>> were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have
>>> a couple good options that were developed quickly.
>>>
>> And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was the very
>> reason for imposing restrictions...
>>
>> ...that have saved countless lives in many countries...
>>
>> ...just not in the US.
>
> We had restrictions prior to vaccines too. They did save lives.
>

Keep yapping, Liarboy.

The simple truth is that you've killed nearly 6 times as many of your
citizens in Indiana as compared to BC per capita.

For our countries as a whole, the ratio is 2.7 times as many deaths per
capita.

Where's the big advantage you've gained from letting all those people
die, Liarboy?

Is it in GDP?

<https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual>

<https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/gdp-growth-annual>

Ours dropped a little more and is coming back a little slower.

Unemployment?

<https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate>

<https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate>

Yours actually spiked WORSE than ours and now we're doing better on
relative rate from immediately before the pandemic than you are. You've
gone from 3.5% immediately before to just less than 6% now (an increase
of a little less than 71%) compared to Canada at 5.5% pre-pandemic and
about 8.25% now (and increase of about 50%).

Well, Liarboy?

On 2021-06-20 9:35 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 9:24:40 PM UTC-4, ed wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
>> ..
>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
>>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
>>> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
>>> immunize the population.
>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
>> already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
>> good thing.
>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It
>>> did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines
>> that were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky
>> we have a couple good options that were developed quickly.
>
> Your last point is exactly what I'm arguing. In the past we did
> nothing approaching COVID-induced restrictions on freedoms. We pretty
> much let diseases run wild until they died out by themselves or we
> found a cure or a prevention.

That is demonstrably bullshit.

> Witness smallpox, polio, mumps and
> measles for just a few examples. We are still fighting malaria in the
> 3th world. For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with
> varied approaches and results. Maybe we will learn something.

Keep yapping, Liarboy.

The simple truth is that you've killed nearly 6 times as many of your
citizens in Indiana as compared to BC per capita.

For our countries as a whole, the ratio is 2.7 times as many deaths per
capita.

Where's the big advantage you've gained from letting all those people
die, Liarboy?

Is it in GDP?

<https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual>

<https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/gdp-growth-annual>

Ours dropped a little more and is coming back a little slower.

Unemployment?

<https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate>

<https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate>

Yours actually spiked WORSE than ours and now we're doing better on
relative rate from immediately before the pandemic than you are. You've
gone from 3.5% immediately before to just less than 6% now (an increase
of a little less than 71%) compared to Canada at 5.5% pre-pandemic and
about 8.25% now (and increase of about 50%).

Well, Liarboy?

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
> On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 9:24:40 PM UTC-4, ed wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > . ..
> > > > Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural
> > > > immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how
> > > > many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the population.
> > >
> > > So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having already infected -
> > > and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a good thing.
> If the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic is used as a guide, 50 million dead when the world
> population was only 1.8 Billion ... approximately 2.7% of the world population. Ignoring
> advances in medical care, that would put the US deaths at ~9M ... and similarly, if one
> assumes a ~66% improvement in survival rates due to medical advances, then that's
> still ~3M dead in the USA
> > > > Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to vaccines.. So-called
> > > > experts were saying it would take years. It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> > >
> > > Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that were in development
> > > haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have a couple good options that were developed quickly.
> >
> > Your last point is exactly what I'm arguing.
> But also choosing to ignore the time element to its diffusion, which hasn't been uniform
> even within the US, let alone worldwide.
> > In the past we did nothing approaching COVID-induced restrictions on freedoms.
> > We pretty much let diseases run wild until they died out by themselves or we found
> > a cure or a prevention.
> Incorrect: there were interventions by the State to try to limit the spread. Go back and check
> the Spanish Flu history on public restrictions differences of IIRC Philadelphia vs St Louis...if
> memory serves, one banned public gathering for a parade and the other didn't ... and the outcome
> was a difference in mortality rates ~6 weeks later.
> > Witness smallpox, polio, mumps and measles for just a few examples.
> Walter Reed experiments on soldiers in Panama to research Yellow Fever .... 1899:
>
> <https://www.britannica.com/biography/Walter-Reed>
> <https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/politics-participation-walter-reeds-yellow-fever-experiments/2009-04>
> > We are still fighting malaria in the 3th world.
> There were also massive outbreaks of Yellow Fever in the USA in Philadelphia & NYC
> in the 1790s...
> > For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with varied approaches and results.
> > Maybe we will learn something.
> Applying even CoVid's Western medicine's 1.8% CFR to the world's current 7.6B population
> means an additional 130 million dead, plus around a half billion more with chronic conditions
> and/or disabilities. What would've been the economic impact of that?
>
>
> -hh

Excuse me, but the 1918-1920 flu restrictions were not even CLOSE to what has been done in this pandemic.

OTHER HUGE differences this time around. For starters we have very efficacious vaccines in the same year as the outbreak. H1N1 is not the same virus as COVID-19. You cannot simply compare death rates for two very different viruses. Finally, U.S. living conditions a hundred years ago are very different from today.

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 5:58:39 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-20 9:25 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:05:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> >> On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
> >>> ..
> >>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
> >>>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
> >>>> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
> >>>> immunize the population.
> >>>
> >>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
> >>> already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
> >>> good thing.
> >>>
> >>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
> >>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did
> >>>> not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> >>>
> >>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that
> >>> were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have
> >>> a couple good options that were developed quickly.
> >>>
> >> And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was the very
> >> reason for imposing restrictions...
> >>
> >> ...that have saved countless lives in many countries...
> >>
> >> ...just not in the US.
> >
> > We had restrictions prior to vaccines too. They did save lives.
> >
> Keep yapping, Liarboy.
>
> The simple truth is that you've killed nearly 6 times as many of your
> citizens in Indiana as compared to BC per capita.
>
> For our countries as a whole, the ratio is 2.7 times as many deaths per
> capita.
>
> Where's the big advantage you've gained from letting all those people
> die, Liarboy?
>
> Is it in GDP?
>
> <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual>
>
> <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/gdp-growth-annual>
>
> Ours dropped a little more and is coming back a little slower.
>
> Unemployment?
>
> <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate>
>
> <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate>
>
> Yours actually spiked WORSE than ours and now we're doing better on
> relative rate from immediately before the pandemic than you are. You've
> gone from 3.5% immediately before to just less than 6% now (an increase
> of a little less than 71%) compared to Canada at 5.5% pre-pandemic and
> about 8.25% now (and increase of about 50%).
>
> Well, Liarboy?

Alan as I have stated before it's not all about the numbers. How do you compare the mental well-being of the vastly more numerous survivors to the pain of death losses from the relatively few (many of which were imminent anyway given the age demographics involved). You cannot.

Now I'm going to make you really mad. As of yesterday the local symphony eliminated attendance limits for our outdoor summer concert series. It was set at 4,000, about half capacity. Now no limits on ticket sales. We will be attending almost all of the concerts. The fall indoor concert tickets are going on sale, with no attendance limits shown on the website. https://www.indianapolissymphony.org/ The site has a photo that shows an audience wearing masks. But if you look closely it's all Asians in the seats. That's not real. The audience is typically older and predominately Caucasian. And, there is no mention of COVID restrictions that I can fine on the ISO site. You too can buy a ticket to go to the June 27 performance of Beatles music by the entire orchestra.
https://tickets.indianapolissymphony.org/events/detail/11912/11933
It's going to be a lot of fun! Bring your dinner and drinks, and come on down!

Our first convention of what will be a very busy summer kicks off in a few days. Later this year GENCON and the FFA are planning on 50-70k attendees.

Out and about these last few days a rough estimate of mask wearing by the general public - about 2-5%. Employees mandated are still masking up in many places of business as a condition of employment.

Indiana cases and deaths continue to wane despite almost total freedom to travel and assemble with no restrictions. Before and after the Indy 500 new case and death trends were consistent. No surge, just no effect.
https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm

Same is true for the entire country.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases

If you want to be critical here's a topic. Six months after the first vaccine doses given Indiana is only 47% fully vaccinated for the 12 and up population. That's shameful. We could be even lower on cases and deaths than we currently are. We are one of the lowest states in percent vaccinated.

What is also interesting is the the Democrats have been in power since January with no apparent effect on declining case and death trends. In fact, the Biden administration has basically done nothing other than tweaking vaccine distribution on the COVID front. What does that tell you? There was and is across party lines no political will in this country to give up personal freedoms to the extent that Canadians are willing to do so. So criticize Americans if you want to. I'm just one voter. I did not vote for Biden. Had Democrats nominated a credible candidate I would not have voted for Trump.

On 2021-06-23 9:22 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 9:24:40 PM UTC-4, ed wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E.
>>>> wrote: . ..
>>>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
>>>>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One
>>>>> could ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the
>>>>> virus to immunize the population.
>>>>
>>>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by
>>>> having already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people...
>>>> Yea, not a good thing.
>> If the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic is used as a guide, 50 million
>> dead when the world population was only 1.8 Billion ...
>> approximately 2.7% of the world population. Ignoring advances in
>> medical care, that would put the US deaths at ~9M ... and
>> similarly, if one assumes a ~66% improvement in survival rates due
>> to medical advances, then that's still ~3M dead in the USA
>>>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
>>>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years.
>>>>> It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
>>>>
>>>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines
>>>> that were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're
>>>> lucky we have a couple good options that were developed
>>>> quickly.
>>>
>>> Your last point is exactly what I'm arguing.
>> But also choosing to ignore the time element to its diffusion,
>> which hasn't been uniform even within the US, let alone worldwide.
>>> In the past we did nothing approaching COVID-induced restrictions
>>> on freedoms. We pretty much let diseases run wild until they died
>>> out by themselves or we found a cure or a prevention.
>> Incorrect: there were interventions by the State to try to limit
>> the spread. Go back and check the Spanish Flu history on public
>> restrictions differences of IIRC Philadelphia vs St Louis...if
>> memory serves, one banned public gathering for a parade and the
>> other didn't ... and the outcome was a difference in mortality
>> rates ~6 weeks later.
>>> Witness smallpox, polio, mumps and measles for just a few
>>> examples.
>> Walter Reed experiments on soldiers in Panama to research Yellow
>> Fever ... 1899:
>>
>> <https://www.britannica.com/biography/Walter-Reed>
>> <https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/politics-participation-walter-reeds-yellow-fever-experiments/2009-04>
>>>
>>
>> We are still fighting malaria in the 3th world.
>> There were also massive outbreaks of Yellow Fever in the USA in
>> Philadelphia & NYC in the 1790s...
>>> For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with varied
>>> approaches and results. Maybe we will learn something.
>> Applying even CoVid's Western medicine's 1.8% CFR to the world's
>> current 7.6B population means an additional 130 million dead, plus
>> around a half billion more with chronic conditions and/or
>> disabilities. What would've been the economic impact of that?
>>
>>
>> -hh
>
> Excuse me, but the 1918-1920 flu restrictions were not even CLOSE to
> what has been done in this pandemic.
>
> OTHER HUGE differences this time around. For starters we have very
> efficacious vaccines in the same year as the outbreak. H1N1 is not
> the same virus as COVID-19. You cannot simply compare death rates for
> two very different viruses. Finally, U.S. living conditions a hundred
> years ago are very different from today.

So if your governments had actually done a good job, you wouldn't have
so many dead fellow citizens.

There are 222 different jurisdictions listed here:

<https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries>

Not all are actually countries and I'm certain that quite a few
countries are falsifying their data, but even so, in deaths per million,
the US is worse than all of them but 19.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans are dead, and you can bleat about
your "freedom" all you want.

On 2021-06-23 10:03 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 5:58:39 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-06-20 9:25 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:05:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E.
>>>>> wrote: . ..
>>>>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have
>>>>>> acquired natural immunity that is now part of the case
>>>>>> decline. One could ask how many future deaths were avoided
>>>>>> by allowing the virus to immunize the population.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by
>>>>> having already infected - and killed off - a bunch of
>>>>> people... Yea, not a good thing.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
>>>>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take
>>>>>> years. It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of
>>>>> vaccines that were in development haven't been approved yet,
>>>>> so we're lucky we have a couple good options that were
>>>>> developed quickly.
>>>>>
>>>> And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was
>>>> the very reason for imposing restrictions...
>>>>
>>>> ...that have saved countless lives in many countries...
>>>>
>>>> ...just not in the US.
>>>
>>> We had restrictions prior to vaccines too. They did save lives.
>>>
>> Keep yapping, Liarboy.
>>
>> The simple truth is that you've killed nearly 6 times as many of
>> your citizens in Indiana as compared to BC per capita.
>>
>> For our countries as a whole, the ratio is 2.7 times as many deaths
>> per capita.
>>
>> Where's the big advantage you've gained from letting all those
>> people die, Liarboy?
>>
>> Is it in GDP?
>>
>> <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual>
>>
>> <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/gdp-growth-annual>
>>
>> Ours dropped a little more and is coming back a little slower.
>>
>> Unemployment?
>>
>> <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate>
>>
>> <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate>
>>
>> Yours actually spiked WORSE than ours and now we're doing better
>> on relative rate from immediately before the pandemic than you are.
>> You've gone from 3.5% immediately before to just less than 6% now
>> (an increase of a little less than 71%) compared to Canada at 5.5%
>> pre-pandemic and about 8.25% now (and increase of about 50%).
>>
>> Well, Liarboy?
>
> Alan as I have stated before it's not all about the numbers. How do
> you compare the mental well-being of the vastly more numerous
> survivors to the pain of death losses from the relatively few (many
> of which were imminent anyway given the age demographics involved).
> You cannot.

Bleat on!

>
> Now I'm going to make you really mad. As of yesterday the local
> symphony eliminated attendance limits for our outdoor summer concert
> series. It was set at 4,000, about half capacity. Now no limits on
> ticket sales. We will be attending almost all of the concerts. The
> fall indoor concert tickets are going on sale, with no attendance
> limits shown on the website. https://www.indianapolissymphony.org/
> The site has a photo that shows an audience wearing masks. But if you
> look closely it's all Asians in the seats. That's not real. The
> audience is typically older and predominately Caucasian. And, there
> is no mention of COVID restrictions that I can fine on the ISO site.
> You too can buy a ticket to go to the June 27 performance of Beatles
> music by the entire orchestra.
> https://tickets.indianapolissymphony.org/events/detail/11912/11933
> It's going to be a lot of fun! Bring your dinner and drinks, and come
> on down!

Your priorities are so messed up.

>
> Our first convention of what will be a very busy summer kicks off in
> a few days. Later this year GENCON and the FFA are planning on 50-70k
> attendees.
>
> Out and about these last few days a rough estimate of mask wearing by
> the general public - about 2-5%. Employees mandated are still masking
> up in many places of business as a condition of employment.

I see.

And that's fine with you.

>
> Indiana cases and deaths continue to wane despite almost total
> freedom to travel and assemble with no restrictions. Before and after
> the Indy 500 new case and death trends were consistent. No surge,
> just no effect. https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm

And the dead are still dead.

>
> Same is true for the entire country.
> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases
>
> If you want to be critical here's a topic. Six months after the first
> vaccine doses given Indiana is only 47% fully vaccinated for the 12
> and up population. That's shameful. We could be even lower on cases
> and deaths than we currently are. We are one of the lowest states in
> percent vaccinated.

Maybe if you didn't live in a country that makes ignorance a badge of
honour.

>
> What is also interesting is the the Democrats have been in power
> since January with no apparent effect on declining case and death
> trends. In fact, the Biden administration has basically done nothing
> other than tweaking vaccine distribution on the COVID front. What
> does that tell you? There was and is across party lines no political
> will in this country to give up personal freedoms to the extent that
> Canadians are willing to do so. So criticize Americans if you want
> to. I'm just one voter. I did not vote for Biden. Had Democrats
> nominated a credible candidate I would not have voted for Trump.

That you chose to keep Trump in office tells me all I need about you.

Biden was far more "credible" than Trump.

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 12:22:33 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:27:11 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 12:35:34 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 9:24:40 PM UTC-4, ed wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > . ..
> > > > > Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired natural
> > > > > immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could ask how
> > > > > many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to immunize the population.
> > > >
> > > > So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having already infected -
> > > > and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a good thing.
> >
> > If the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic is used as a guide, 50 million dead when the world
> > population was only 1.8 Billion ... approximately 2.7% of the world population. Ignoring
> > advances in medical care, that would put the US deaths at ~9M ... and similarly, if one
> > assumes a ~66% improvement in survival rates due to medical advances, then that's
> > still ~3M dead in the USA
> >
> > > > > Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to vaccines. So-called
> > > > > experts were saying it would take years. It did not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that were in development
> > > > haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have a couple good options that were developed quickly.
> > >
> > > Your last point is exactly what I'm arguing.
> >
> > But also choosing to ignore the time element to its diffusion, which hasn't been uniform
> > even within the US, let alone worldwide.
> >
> > > In the past we did nothing approaching COVID-induced restrictions on freedoms.
> > > We pretty much let diseases run wild until they died out by themselves or we found
> > > a cure or a prevention.
> >
> > Incorrect: there were interventions by the State to try to limit the spread. Go back and check
> > the Spanish Flu history on public restrictions differences of IIRC Philadelphia vs St Louis...if
> > memory serves, one banned public gathering for a parade and the other didn't ... and the outcome
> > was a difference in mortality rates ~6 weeks later.
> >
> > > Witness smallpox, polio, mumps and measles for just a few examples.
> > Walter Reed experiments on soldiers in Panama to research Yellow Fever ... 1899:
> >
> > <https://www.britannica.com/biography/Walter-Reed>
> > <https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/politics-participation-walter-reeds-yellow-fever-experiments/2009-04>
> >
> > > We are still fighting malaria in the 3th world.
> >
> > There were also massive outbreaks of Yellow Fever in the USA in Philadelphia & NYC
> > in the 1790s...
> >
> > > For COVID most countries went to policy extremes, with varied approaches and results.
> > > Maybe we will learn something.
> >
> > Applying even CoVid's Western medicine's 1.8% CFR to the world's current 7.6B population
> > means an additional 130 million dead, plus around a half billion more with chronic conditions
> > and/or disabilities. What would've been the economic impact of that?
>
>
> Excuse me, but the 1918-1920 flu restrictions were not even CLOSE to what
> has been done in this pandemic.

That's a goalpost move attempt, because your claim was "We pretty much let
diseases run wild until they died out by themselves or we found a cure or a prevention."

> OTHER HUGE differences this time around.

Restrictions today are *of course* different, because modern society is much more
mobile and has technology-based alternatives to maintain activities. Back in 1918, we
didn't need to shut down international airline travel because it literally didn't exist yet.

> For starters we have very efficacious vaccines in the same year as the outbreak.

Yes, a modern miracle, but we're not out of the woods yet, particularly for ROW.

> H1N1 is not the same virus as COVID-19.
> You cannot simply compare death rates for two very different viruses.

I beg to differ: the 1918 Pandemic's CFR was 2%, vs today's 1.8% CFR for CoVid is
actually quite comparable.

Plus when one considers the higher CoVid CFR f% in developing countries, where
their medical care/resources are much more limited a& similar to 1918 USA conditions
means that CoVid is more deadly than the 1918 Spanish Flu ( & justifies higher precautions).

-hh

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 5:58:39 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> > On 2021-06-20 9:25 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:05:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> > >> On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
> > >>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
> > >>> ..
> > >>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
> > >>>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
> > >>>> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
> > >>>> immunize the population.
> > >>>
> > >>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
> > >>> already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
> > >>> good thing.
> > >>>
> > >>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
> > >>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did
> > >>>> not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> > >>>
> > >>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that
> > >>> were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have
> > >>> a couple good options that were developed quickly.
> > >>>
> > >> And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was the very
> > >> reason for imposing restrictions...
> > >>
> > >> ...that have saved countless lives in many countries...
> > >>
> > >> ...just not in the US.
> > >
> > > We had restrictions prior to vaccines too. They did save lives.
> > >
> > Keep yapping, Liarboy.
> >
> > The simple truth is that you've killed nearly 6 times as many of your
> > citizens in Indiana as compared to BC per capita.
> >
> > For our countries as a whole, the ratio is 2.7 times as many deaths per
> > capita.
> >
> > Where's the big advantage you've gained from letting all those people
> > die, Liarboy?
> >
> > Is it in GDP?
> >
> > <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual>
> >
> > <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/gdp-growth-annual>
> >
> > Ours dropped a little more and is coming back a little slower.
> >
> > Unemployment?
> >
> > <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate>
> >
> > <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate>
> >
> > Yours actually spiked WORSE than ours and now we're doing better on
> > relative rate from immediately before the pandemic than you are. You've
> > gone from 3.5% immediately before to just less than 6% now (an increase
> > of a little less than 71%) compared to Canada at 5.5% pre-pandemic and
> > about 8.25% now (and increase of about 50%).
> >
> > Well, Liarboy?
>
> Alan as I have stated before it's not all about the numbers. How do you compare
> the mental well-being of the vastly more numerous survivors to the pain of death
> losses from the relatively few (many of which were imminent anyway given the
> age demographics involved). You cannot.

While psychological ailments shouldn't be dismissed, CoVid is manifesting multiple
direct physiological harm to a much larger fraction than merely those who died.
By some current estimates, ~30% of survivors are manifesting some level of "long"
ailments, and there's chronic conditions emerging from everything from lung scarring
and heart inflammation to diabetes (Type 1) and male fertility decline

> Now I'm going to make you really mad. As of yesterday the local symphony eliminated
> attendance limits for our outdoor summer concert series. It was set at 4,000, about half capacity.
> Now no limits on ticket sales.

Oh, so then Indiana is weeks behind New York City in reopening, as they just had a 100% *indoor*
capacity concert last Sunday:

<https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/entertainment/foo-fighters-madison-square-garden/index.html>

> Out and about these last few days a rough estimate of mask wearing by the general public -
> about 2-5%. Employees mandated are still masking up in many places of business as a condition
> of employment.

Around 33% here, which is a shortsightedness risk, as the Delta variant is at 20% of cases & growing,
particularly in regions with lower vaccination rates (FL hospitalizations were up +30% last week):

<https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/USA-TRENDS/dgkvlgkrkpb/>

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/06/14/covid-cases-vaccination-rates/>

> If you want to be critical here's a topic. Six months after the first vaccine doses given Indiana is only
> 47% fully vaccinated for the 12 and up population. That's shameful. We could be even lower on cases
> and deaths than we currently are. We are one of the lowest states in percent vaccinated.

Probably because you're a "Trump" Red state who prioritize "personal freedoms" over
the collective good of society ...

....as vaccination rates have been successfully correlated to political affiliation; see:

<https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004430257/theres-a-stark-red-blue-divide-when-it-comes-to-states-vaccination-rates>

"Correlation of Biden vote share and adult Covid vaccination rate is now at .847 (CDC data)"
<https://mobile.twitter.com/smotus/status/1404483957647831046>

> What is also interesting is the the Democrats have been in power since January with no apparent effect
> on declining case and death trends.

"No apparent effect at all"?
Nationally, the mortality rate for the week ending 1/17/21 was 10.32 deaths/day per million.
Two months later (3/14/21) it was less than half ... 4.05 deaths/day per million.
Last week (6/20/21), it was ~half as much again ... 2.07 deaths/day per million.

> In fact, the Biden administration has basically done nothing other than tweaking vaccine
> distribution on the COVID front. What does that tell you?

The Federal lead for vaccine distribution is a civilian Army executive at TACOM-Warren,
and we were given an in-house briefing a few months ago ... I alluded to it in a few posts
on how vaccine deployment rates were going to ramp up to 25M/week. What you're trying
to claim as mere "tweaks" is false: you've been grossly misinformed.

> There was and is across party lines no political will in this country to give up personal freedoms
> to the extent that Canadians are willing to do so.

No, what you're really doing is admitting that Americans have degraded into petty selfishness.

-hh

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 1:09:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> ...
>
> There are 222 different jurisdictions listed here:
>
> <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries>
>
> Not all are actually countries and I'm certain that quite a few
> countries are falsifying their data, but even so, in deaths per million,
> the US is worse than all of them but 19.

With six (6) of those 19 ... roughly a third .. having a combined population
of less than NYC.
> Hundreds of thousands of Americans are dead, and you can bleat about
> your "freedom" all you want.

Look at what's emerging from Brazil and India: two places where a rightist
leader tried to deny there were any problems and didn't do lockdowns: the
first is at 2,359 deaths/million (10th worst) and the latter has 4.4 million
excess dead people that they're going to have a hard time showing that it
wasn't CoVid, which once so done will jump their mortality from their claim
of just 281 deaths per million (107th place) to 3,439 per million (2nd worst).

Closer to home, I personally expect that in ~five years, we'll finally have
reliable enough data out of Florida to understand how much worse it was
than their reporting ... they're currently at just under 1,800/million but I
personally expect that to end up closer to 3,000/million once they're forced
to include probables and non-residents.

-hh

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 2:43:32 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 5:58:39 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> > > On 2021-06-20 9:25 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:05:30 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> > > >> On 2021-06-16 6:24 p.m., ed wrote:
> > > >>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:26:25 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote: .
> > > >>> ..
> > > >>>> Plus, by going through the pain millions of us have acquired
> > > >>>> natural immunity that is now part of the case decline. One could
> > > >>>> ask how many future deaths were avoided by allowing the virus to
> > > >>>> immunize the population.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> So you're arguing we might be avoiding future deaths.. by having
> > > >>> already infected - and killed off - a bunch of people... Yea, not a
> > > >>> good thing.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Remember, when all this started there was no clear path to
> > > >>>> vaccines. So-called experts were saying it would take years. It did
> > > >>>> not, but it was no sure thing a year ago.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Yep, that was presented as a possibility. And a lot of vaccines that
> > > >>> were in development haven't been approved yet, so we're lucky we have
> > > >>> a couple good options that were developed quickly.
> > > >>>
> > > >> And the fact that having vaccines was going to take a while was the very
> > > >> reason for imposing restrictions...
> > > >>
> > > >> ...that have saved countless lives in many countries...
> > > >>
> > > >> ...just not in the US.
> > > >
> > > > We had restrictions prior to vaccines too. They did save lives.
> > > >
> > > Keep yapping, Liarboy.
> > >
> > > The simple truth is that you've killed nearly 6 times as many of your
> > > citizens in Indiana as compared to BC per capita.
> > >
> > > For our countries as a whole, the ratio is 2.7 times as many deaths per
> > > capita.
> > >
> > > Where's the big advantage you've gained from letting all those people
> > > die, Liarboy?
> > >
> > > Is it in GDP?
> > >
> > > <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual>
> > >
> > > <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/gdp-growth-annual>
> > >
> > > Ours dropped a little more and is coming back a little slower.
> > >
> > > Unemployment?
> > >
> > > <https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate>
> > >
> > > <https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/unemployment-rate>
> > >
> > > Yours actually spiked WORSE than ours and now we're doing better on
> > > relative rate from immediately before the pandemic than you are. You've
> > > gone from 3.5% immediately before to just less than 6% now (an increase
> > > of a little less than 71%) compared to Canada at 5.5% pre-pandemic and
> > > about 8.25% now (and increase of about 50%).
> > >
> > > Well, Liarboy?
> >
> > Alan as I have stated before it's not all about the numbers. How do you compare
> > the mental well-being of the vastly more numerous survivors to the pain of death
> > losses from the relatively few (many of which were imminent anyway given the
> > age demographics involved). You cannot.
> While psychological ailments shouldn't be dismissed, CoVid is manifesting multiple
> direct physiological harm to a much larger fraction than merely those who died.
> By some current estimates, ~30% of survivors are manifesting some level of "long"
> ailments, and there's chronic conditions emerging from everything from lung scarring
> and heart inflammation to diabetes (Type 1) and male fertility decline
> > Now I'm going to make you really mad. As of yesterday the local symphony eliminated
> > attendance limits for our outdoor summer concert series. It was set at 4,000, about half capacity.
> > Now no limits on ticket sales.
> Oh, so then Indiana is weeks behind New York City in reopening, as they just had a 100% *indoor*
> capacity concert last Sunday:
>
> <https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/entertainment/foo-fighters-madison-square-garden/index.html>
> > Out and about these last few days a rough estimate of mask wearing by the general public -
> > about 2-5%. Employees mandated are still masking up in many places of business as a condition
> > of employment.
> Around 33% here, which is a shortsightedness risk, as the Delta variant is at 20% of cases & growing,
> particularly in regions with lower vaccination rates (FL hospitalizations were up +30% last week):
>
> <https://graphics.reuters.com/HEALTH-CORONAVIRUS/USA-TRENDS/dgkvlgkrkpb/>
>
> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/06/14/covid-cases-vaccination-rates/>
> > If you want to be critical here's a topic. Six months after the first vaccine doses given Indiana is only
> > 47% fully vaccinated for the 12 and up population. That's shameful. We could be even lower on cases
> > and deaths than we currently are. We are one of the lowest states in percent vaccinated.
> Probably because you're a "Trump" Red state who prioritize "personal freedoms" over
> the collective good of society ...
>
> ...as vaccination rates have been successfully correlated to political affiliation; see:
>
> <https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004430257/theres-a-stark-red-blue-divide-when-it-comes-to-states-vaccination-rates>
>
> "Correlation of Biden vote share and adult Covid vaccination rate is now at .847 (CDC data)"
> <https://mobile.twitter.com/smotus/status/1404483957647831046>
> > What is also interesting is the the Democrats have been in power since January with no apparent effect
> > on declining case and death trends.
> "No apparent effect at all"?
> Nationally, the mortality rate for the week ending 1/17/21 was 10.32 deaths/day per million.
> Two months later (3/14/21) it was less than half ... 4.05 deaths/day per million.
> Last week (6/20/21), it was ~half as much again ... 2.07 deaths/day per million.
> > In fact, the Biden administration has basically done nothing other than tweaking vaccine
> > distribution on the COVID front. What does that tell you?
> The Federal lead for vaccine distribution is a civilian Army executive at TACOM-Warren,
> and we were given an in-house briefing a few months ago ... I alluded to it in a few posts
> on how vaccine deployment rates were going to ramp up to 25M/week. What you're trying
> to claim as mere "tweaks" is false: you've been grossly misinformed.
> > There was and is across party lines no political will in this country to give up personal freedoms
> > to the extent that Canadians are willing to do so.
> No, what you're really doing is admitting that Americans have degraded into petty selfishness.
>
>
> -hh

The Biden administration has done nothing different to stop the spread was my comment.