On 2022-05-12 05:27:37 +0000, Hibou said:

> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>
>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>>
>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
>> these days.
>>
>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>
> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people knew
> French, in Britain at least;

In pre-revolutionary Russia, too. In our college library there was an
early edition of War and Peace in Russian. However, "in Russian"
doesn't quite convey the meaning. The book opens with two or three
pages entirely in French, and there are big chunks of French
throughout. The reader was expected to be able to read these without
any difficulty.

> it was, after all, the international language. There are, for example,
> short untranslated passages of French in Charlotte Brontë's 'The
> Professor' (1857):
>
> "A servant here entered:-
> "'Mdlle. Henri - Mdlle. Reuter vous prie de vouloir bien conduire
> la petite de Dorlodot chez elle, elle vous attend dans le cabinet de
> Rosalie la portiere - c'est que sa bonne n'est pas venue la chercher -
> voyez-vous.'
> "'Eh bien! est-ce que je suis sa bonne - moi?' demanded Mdlle.
> Henri; then smiling, with that same bitter, derisive smile I had seen
> on her lips once before, she hastily rose and made her exit."
>
> And again:
>
> "'Que le dedain lui sied bien!' I once overheard her say to her
> mother: 'il est beau comme Apollon quand il sourit de son air hautain.'"
> "... 'Pour moi,' she continued, 'il me fait tout l'effet d’un
> chat-huant, avec ses besicles.'"
>
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1028/1028-h/1028-h.htm>
>
> I don't think an author would expect readers to understand such
> passages nowadays.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-05-11 23:40:37 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 12/05/22 02:45, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>> husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>> professionally known by their birth name.
>
> My wife is one of those.

Mine too. Three reasons: 1. She had published under her previous name,
and saw no reason to lose those publications; 2. She comes from a
country where it is almost impossible to change one's name, for any
reason, without a great deal of effort and expense; 3. She saw no
reason to change it.

> She is considering changing her name after
> retirement.
>
> (Theoretically she's already retired, but because of a nurse shortage
> she keeps getting offered new contracts.)
>
> My ex-wife had rather stronger feelings on the matter. As a Belgian, she
> was used to a system where one's original name continues to be the main
> legal name, even though most women are known socially by their husband's
> name. She didn't accept that under Australian law marriage could
> extinguish her original name. I was sympathetic to that.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-05-12 05:02:21 +0000, Lewis said:

[ … ]

>
> Yes, and many women DO change their legal name, but keep their
> professional name as well.
>
> Certainly anyone who has published peer-reviewed papers is foolish to
> change their name.

In my wife's first paper the publisher thought that the end of her
given name was the beginning of her surname and listed her like that
(without consulting her or anyone else). It has been cited many times
nonetheless, and the number would probably be higher if the journal
were not a rather obscure one that no longer exists.
>
> My wife an I each changed our legal names when we were married, but even
> now that's unusual.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 23:47:14 +0100
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 11-May-22 21:34, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> > Den 11-05-2022 kl. 21:08 skrev Sam Plusnet:
> >> On 11-May-22 18:14, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
> >>>> On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> fi·an·cé   A   man engaged to be married.
> >>>> Yes, I know.
> >>>
> >>>    Yes, I knew.
> >>>
> >>>    I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.
> >>
> >> Interesting.
> >> I assumed that the "English learners" each start a thread by asking a
> >> question, and only ever look at the responses to those specific
> >> questions.
> >>
> >> I don't recall any occasions when they have popped up in an existing
> >> thread to ask a question. (Or is my recall faulty?)
> >
> > I have been known to do so from time to time.
> > (Still learning after 50 years or so)
>
> On that basis, we must all confess to being learners - and the words
> lose all meaning.
>
>Noo!!! Not after I nearly understood some of them!!
> --
> Sam Plusnet

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>>>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>>>
>>>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>>>
>>>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>>>professionally known by their birth name.
>>>
>>> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>>> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>>> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>>> name professionally.
>>
>>You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>>not?
>>
> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>
> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
> record". A woman can legally change her name by getting a new

Can but not must --- that's what I thought. I wondered if you meant
Florida had some weird law about it.

> driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
> that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
> notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
> her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
> can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
> her new name.
>
> If she doesn't make those changes, she can continue to use her former
> name. In either case, socially she can be whatever she introduces
> herself as.
>
> In the example I gave, they are women who have not changed their
> employer records, so they are known at work by their maiden name, but
> known socially by their married last name.
>
> I wouldn't know, of course, what's on their driver's license or bank
> account, etc.
>>
>>> I don't know how that works if they have to sign a document or to
>>> which name their paycheck is written. Never asked.
>>>
>>> This came up recently when my wife called a friend at the friend's
>>> workplace and was told that there wasn't an employee there with that
>>> name. The friend had re-married about five years ago, but kept her
>>> previous husband's last name at the office because she'd used that
>>> name for several years.
>>>
> This one is a travel agent, and had a customer base before she
> re-married. Her past customers don't know her new married name.
> When she meets someone socially who might be a new customer, she
> explains the situation, but it never came up with my wife because our
> contact is social-only.
>
>
>

--
is it any wonder that my mind's on fire,
imprisoned by the thoughts of what to do?

On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 12/05/22 05:08, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 11-May-22 18:14, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>>> On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
>>>> Yes, I know.
>>>
>>> Yes, I knew.
>>>
>>> I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.
>>
>> Interesting. I assumed that the "English learners" each start a
>> thread by asking a question, and only ever look at the responses to
>> those specific questions.
>>
>> I don't recall any occasions when they have popped up in an existing
>> thread to ask a question. (Or is my recall faulty?)
>
> Don't forget the lurkers. Apparently there used to be many in AUE:
> people who wanted to read the group but didn't feel confident enough in
> English to post anything. (But I've forgotten how I found that out.)
>
> I have no idea whether we still have lurkers.

Yes, the lurkers all support me in e-mails.

--
To live without killing is a thought which could electrify the world,
if men were only capable of staying awake long enough to let the idea
soak in. ---Henry Miller

On 2022-05-11, Bebercito wrote:

> Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 15:15:07 UTC+2, Adam Funk a écrit :
>> On 2022-05-11, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>> > On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>> >> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> >> says...
>> >>>
>> >>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>> >>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> >>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>> >>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>> >>>
>> >>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>> >>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>> >>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>> >>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>> >>>
>> >>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> >>> writing the accent.
>> >>
>> >> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>> >> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>> >>
>> >> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>> I can't recall ever hearing a female driver called a "chauffeuse" in
>> English except facetiously among people studying French.
>
> In French, a female driver is actually called a "chauffeur" (or sometimes
> "chauffeure", with the reform of orthography), while "chauffeuse" refers
> either to a female stoker or a type of low chair.

I did know that except for the chair!

>> > In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>> > blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>> I don't think blond/e is consistently inflected for gender in AmE;
>> some people do it & some don't.
>>
>>
>> --
>> It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave
>> like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to
>> behave like civilised men. ---Spock

--
All crime is due to incorrect breathing.
---Sir Henry Rawlinson

On Wed, 11 May 2022 18:19:53 -0700
Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> wrote:

> After serious thinking Sam Plusnet wrote :
> > On 11-May-22 11:09, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 11/05/22 19:30, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>> On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> >
> >>>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, it's not.
> >>>
> >>> Oh yes it is.
> >>
> >> Behind you!
> >
> > Leave my behind out of this.
>
> He's apt to give you a bum steer.
>
> /dps "or a welfare queen cow"
>
Better than a poke in a pig.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 05:35:00 -0000 (UTC)
Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> In message <20220511083632.58169c7cbc9e737d938caec0@127.0.0.1> Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 May 2022 06:58:05 +0100
> > Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> >> > Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> >>
> >> >> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
> >> >> née is
> >> >> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >> >> the
> >> >> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >> >> sometimes
> >> >> without the acute accent.
> >> >>
> >> >> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >> >> writing the accent.
> >> >
> >> > It's difficult to have everyone agree.
> >>
> >> No, it's not.
> >>
> >>
> > You're all individuals!
>
> "You are all individuals."
>
> I'm not!"
>
Yes. And, like sheep, easily lead.
>
>
> --
> BILL: I can't get behind the Gods, who are more vengeful, angry, an dangerous
> if you don't believe in them!
> HENRY: Why can't all these God just get along? I mean, they're omnipotent and
> omnipresent, what's the problem?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>
>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for
>>> gender is
>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for
>>> gender in BrE.
>>
>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely
>> does
>> these days.
>>
>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>
> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
> knew French, in Britain at least;

The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.

> it was, after all, the
> international language. There are, for example, short
> untranslated passages of French in Charlotte Brontë's 'The
> Professor' (1857):

It remains untranslated because any English reader can translate
for themselves as they go along. I'll prove it for you.

>     "A servant here entered:-
>     "'Mdlle. Henri - Mdlle. Reuter vous prie de vouloir bien

Miss Henry, Miss Rita, you take of to want good

> conduire la petite de Dorlodot chez elle, elle vous attend dans

conduct the little of Door low dot at Elle's house, she you wait in

> le cabinet de Rosalie la portiere - c'est que sa bonne n'est pas

of Rosalie's the cabinet the doorman, it is her good not

> venue la chercher - voyez-vous.'

cinema, theatre, museum restaurant or public meeting place the to
seek, see you.

>     "'Eh bien! est-ce que je suis sa bonne - moi?' demanded

Oh good! It is I am her good me?

> Mdlle. Henri; then smiling, with that same bitter, derisive smile
> I had seen on her lips once before, she hastily rose and made her
> exit."
>
> And again:
>
>     "'Que le dedain lui sied bien!' I once overheard her say to

What the of Danish his sat well!

> her mother: 'il est beau comme Apollon quand il sourit de son air
> hautain.'"

He is pretty like Apollo when he miced the his air haughty.

>     "... 'Pour moi,' she continued, 'il me fait tout l'effet
> d’un chat-huant, avec ses besicles.'"

For me, he my makes all the effeminate the a cat-crier, with his
bicycles.

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1028/1028-h/1028-h.htm>
>
> I don't think an author would expect readers to understand such
> passages nowadays.

Whyever not? It's not rocket science.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> writes:
>At least in the Netherlands, contrary to popular belief, even here,
>nothing changes as a result of marriage, names remain the same. What
>happens is both spouses have _the right_ to use the surname of the
>other one. Whether or not they actually do that, and when, is up to
>them.

In Germany, anyone has the right to use /any/ name
(including the first and last name).

|In principle, anyone who wants to may call themselves
|whatever they like in legal transactions.
from a book written by a German lawyer (translated from German)

The book then explains that the name used does not have
to match the name from the official ID card.

And what applies to legal transactions even more applies
to any less formal situation.

In article <fa30bb02-642d-4a71-bdcf-fcd122c27d3an@googlegroups.com>,
grammatim@verizon.net says...
>
> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:48:15 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:
> > In article <t5ff9p$qim$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> > says...
> > > On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> > > > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > > > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> > > > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
> > > > word is née and wtf is né?
> > > French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
> > > feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
> > > feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
> > > without the acute accent.
> > > We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> > > writing the accent.
> >
> > In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
> > recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
> >
> > Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
> An awful lot of masseurs are being called masseuses these days.
> (In TV scripts

I've heard and read chanteuse, but not chanteur.

Janet

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>The book then explains that the name used does not have
>to match the name from the official ID card.

In Germany, the name from the official ID card must be
disclosed only to the police, a court or a state authority
after a formal request to do so.

On 5/12/2022 1:27 AM, Hibou wrote:
> Ken Blake a écrit :
>> Peter Moylan

>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender
>>> is blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for
>>> gender in BrE.

>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely
>> does these days.

>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.

> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
> knew French, in Britain at least; it was, after all, the
> international language. There are, for example, short untranslated
> passages of French in Charlotte Brontë's 'The Professor' (1857):

> "A servant here entered:- "'Mdlle. Henri - Mdlle. Reuter vous prie de
> vouloir bien conduire la petite de Dorlodot chez elle, elle vous
> attend dans le cabinet de Rosalie la portiere - c'est que sa bonne
> n'est pas venue la chercher - voyez-vous.' "'Eh bien! est-ce que je
> suis sa bonne - moi?' demanded Mdlle. Henri; then smiling, with that
> same bitter, derisive smile I had seen on her lips once before, she
> hastily rose and made her exit."

> And again:

> "'Que le dedain lui sied bien!' I once overheard her say to her
> mother: 'il est beau comme Apollon quand il sourit de son air
> hautain.'" "... 'Pour moi,' she continued, 'il me fait tout l'effet
> d’un chat-huant, avec ses besicles.'"

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1028/1028-h/1028-h.htm>

> I don't think an author would expect readers to understand such
> passages nowadays.

One who knew me, anyway.

Atilf to the rescue: a kind of owl; anciennes grosses lunettes.

On 5/12/2022 5:56 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Hibou wrote:
>> Ken Blake a écrit :
>>> Peter Moylan

>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for
>>>> gender is blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that
>>>> inflects for gender in BrE.

>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely
>>> does these days.

>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.

>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
>> knew French, in Britain at least;

> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.

>> it was, after all, the international language. There are, for
>> example, short untranslated passages of French in Charlotte
>> Brontë's 'The Professor' (1857):

> It remains untranslated because any English reader can translate for
> themselves as they go along. I'll prove it for you.

>> "A servant here entered:- "'Mdlle. Henri - Mdlle. Reuter vous prie
>> de vouloir bien

> Miss Henry, Miss Rita, you take of to want good

>> conduire la petite de Dorlodot chez elle, elle vous attend dans

> conduct the little of Door low dot at Elle's house, she you wait in

>> le cabinet de Rosalie la portiere - c'est que sa bonne n'est pas

> of Rosalie's the cabinet the doorman, it is her good not

>> venue la chercher - voyez-vous.'

> cinema, theatre, museum restaurant or public meeting place the to
> seek, see you.

>> "'Eh bien! est-ce que je suis sa bonne - moi?' demanded

> Oh good! It is I am her good me?

>> Mdlle. Henri; then smiling, with that same bitter, derisive smile I
>> had seen on her lips once before, she hastily rose and made her
>> exit."

>> And again:

>> "'Que le dedain lui sied bien!' I once overheard her say to

> What the of Danish his sat well!

>> her mother: 'il est beau comme Apollon quand il sourit de son air
>> hautain.'"

> He is pretty like Apollo when he miced the his air haughty.

>> "... 'Pour moi,' she continued, 'il me fait tout l'effet d’un
>> chat-huant, avec ses besicles.'"

> For me, he my makes all the effeminate the a cat-crier, with his
> bicycles.

>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1028/1028-h/1028-h.htm>

>> I don't think an author would expect readers to understand such
>> passages nowadays.

> Whyever not? It's not rocket science.

I know of a story you'll like. It's about a frog.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:51:03 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>>>>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>>>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>>>>professionally known by their birth name.
>>>>
>>>> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>>>> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>>>> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>>>> name professionally.
>>>
>>>You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>>>not?
>>>
>> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
>> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>>
>> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
>> record". A woman can legally change her name by getting a new
>
>Can but not must --- that's what I thought. I wondered if you meant
>Florida had some weird law about it.

An understandable mistake. If there's a law that unfairly restricts
or controls the rights of any group, look for Florida or Texas as the
source.

While not a problem over taking the husband's last name, the worst
experience my wife had as a second-class citizen was in Illinois in
the 1970s.

We were living in Florida, and my wife had flown to Illinois for a
family member's funeral. She flew from Orlando to O'Hare airport in
Chicago where she was to rent a car and drive to Rockford IL.

She had a credit card, but it bore only my name. She'd been using the
card for some time without a problem, but Hertz (and the other rental
car firms) would only accept a credit card that showed the renter's
name. No one would rent her a car.

She finally got hold of me on the phone, and I had to FAX Hertz
permission for her to charge on that card. That required clearance
from the issuing bank in a separate FAX for me to submit the proper
clearance.

Hertz would not accept my phoned permission.

She was delayed for several hours and built up enough steam to power a
locomotive. Typically, she blamed me even though it was common in
those days for credit card companies to issue cards only in one name,
and for those cards to be accepted without question everywhere else.

By the time she got back from the trip, I had contacted everyone we
had cards with (we had several "store cards" with department stores)
and had them issue cards with her name. That's standard practice
today with any credit card, but it wasn't in those days.
>
>
>> driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
>> that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
>> notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
>> her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
>> can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
>> her new name.
>>
>> If she doesn't make those changes, she can continue to use her former
>> name. In either case, socially she can be whatever she introduces
>> herself as.
>>
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 05:22:30 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <t5gai6$ua6$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/05/22 21:48, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since
>>>>> the word is née and wtf is né?
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née
>>>> is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>>> the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>>> sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>>> writing the accent.
>>>
>>> In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
>>> recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.
>>>
>>> Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable
>
>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender in BrE.
>
>And I think that is dying out, with 'blonde' becoming the default even for a
>man with blond hair.

I agree that it's dying out, but in my experience "blond" is becoming
the default, not "blonde."

On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:31:12 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/05/22 05:08, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 11-May-22 18:14, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes:
>>>> On 11 May 2022 16:53:02 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> fi·an·cé A man engaged to be married.
>>>> Yes, I know.
>>>
>>> Yes, I knew.
>>>
>>> I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.
>>
>> Interesting. I assumed that the "English learners" each start a
>> thread by asking a question, and only ever look at the responses to
>> those specific questions.
>>
>> I don't recall any occasions when they have popped up in an existing
>> thread to ask a question. (Or is my recall faulty?)
>
>Don't forget the lurkers. Apparently there used to be many in AUE:
>people who wanted to read the group but didn't feel confident enough in
>English to post anything. (But I've forgotten how I found that out.)
>
>I have no idea whether we still have lurkers.

There's no way to know, of course, but I think it's almost certain
that we do. Almost any active newsgroup does. There are even a couple
of newsgroups that I mostly lurk in and post very rarely.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 05:02:21 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <tupn7hdmi5vi66n4bdbtr4apuldhho6gpi@4ax.com> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>
>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>
>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>
>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>
>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>
>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>your married name as an addendum".
>
>
>> I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>> husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>> professionally known by their birth name.
>
>Yes, and many women DO change their legal name, but keep their
>professional name as well.

Yes. I've known several who did that.

On 2022-05-12 05:37, CDB wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 5:56 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> Hibou wrote:
>>> Ken Blake a écrit :
>>>> Peter Moylan
>
>>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for
>>>>> gender is blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that
>>>>> inflects for gender in BrE.
>
>>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely
>>>> does these days.
>
>>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>
>>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people
>>> knew French, in Britain at least;
>
>> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.
>
>>> it was, after all, the international language. There are, for
>>> example, short untranslated passages of French in Charlotte
>>> Brontë's 'The Professor' (1857):
>
>> It remains untranslated because any English reader can translate for
>>  themselves as they go along. I'll prove it for you.
>
>>> "A servant here entered:- "'Mdlle. Henri - Mdlle. Reuter vous prie
>>> de vouloir bien
>
>> Miss Henry, Miss Rita, you take of to want good
>
>>> conduire la petite de Dorlodot chez elle, elle vous attend dans
>
>> conduct the little of Door low dot at Elle's house, she you wait in
>
>>> le cabinet de Rosalie la portiere - c'est que sa bonne n'est pas
>
>> of Rosalie's the cabinet the doorman, it is her good not
>
>>> venue la chercher - voyez-vous.'
>
>> cinema, theatre, museum restaurant or public meeting place the to
>> seek, see you.
>
>>> "'Eh bien! est-ce que je suis sa bonne - moi?' demanded
>
>> Oh good! It is I am her good me?
>
>>> Mdlle. Henri; then smiling, with that same bitter, derisive smile I
>>>  had seen on her lips once before, she hastily rose and made her
>>> exit."
>
>>> And again:
>
>>> "'Que le dedain lui sied bien!' I once overheard her say to
>
>> What the of Danish his sat well!
>
>>> her mother: 'il est beau comme Apollon quand il sourit de son air
>>> hautain.'"
>
>> He is pretty like Apollo when he miced the his air haughty.
>
>>> "... 'Pour moi,' she continued, 'il me fait tout l'effet d’un
>>> chat-huant, avec ses besicles.'"
>
>> For me, he my makes all the effeminate the a cat-crier, with his
>> bicycles.
>
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1028/1028-h/1028-h.htm>
>
>>> I don't think an author would expect readers to understand such
>>> passages nowadays.
>
>> Whyever not? It's not rocket science.
>
> I know of a story you'll like. It's about a frog.

Ahh, one of my favourites! I will dig it out again and re-read it.
Mark my words.

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> If his mother remarried during his childhood, he might take the surname
> of the step-father[1].

If the stepfather adopts him.

> I suppose there might be accommodation made for
> such eventualities.

> [1] There have been other reasons for a male to change surnames, often
> involving money.

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:12:57 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
> >On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
> >> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
> >> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
> >> name professionally.
> >You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
> >not?
>
> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>
> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
> record". A woman can legally change her name

In Florida?

> by getting a new
> driver's license using her married name, because - for many purposes -
> that's what's now on record. She can also change her last name by
> notifying the Social Security Administration. She can also change
> her name on bank accounts, credit cards, and that sort of thing. She
> can change her last name with her employer so future paychecks bear
> her new name.

You've mingled together at least two levels of administration.

On 2022-05-12, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:51:03 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 19:32:24 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2022-05-11, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 09:45:54 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:31:37 -0400, Quinn C
>>>>>><lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>* Adam Funk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Lewis:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> * Ken Blake:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>>>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>written.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So have I.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>>>>>>>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>>>>>>>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>>>>>>>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>>>>>>>>> would never have happened with "Smith".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>>>>>>>>>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>>>>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
>>>>>>>>> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
>>>>>>>> just that it isn't the default?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Name change isn't part of the marriage process, and if you ask for a
>>>>>>>generic name change, independent of that, you need to give a reason, and
>>>>>>>marriage is not enough of a reason. Or so I've been told.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My feeling is that the bureaucracy simply wants to file a person under
>>>>>>>their birth name forever for simplicity's sake. Even though my wife had
>>>>>>>legally changed her name upon marriage when we arrived here, they wanted
>>>>>>>her "birth name" on the health insurance card, for example. "You can add
>>>>>>>your married name as an addendum".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I've known several women who didn't change their last name to their
>>>>>>husband's when they were married, usually because they were
>>>>>>professionally known by their birth name.
>>>>>
>>>>> We know several women who have retained their last name after marriage
>>>>> professionally, but not socially. Technically, their "legal" last
>>>>> name is their married last name, but continue to use their previous
>>>>> name professionally.
>>>>
>>>>You mean legally the name changes whether the bride wants it to or
>>>>not?
>>>>
>>> No. When a woman marries in the US there's no legal reason for her to
>>> adopt her husband's last name or to retain her own last name.
>>>
>>> I put "legal" in quotes because "legal" is used to mean "what's on
>>> record". A woman can legally change her name by getting a new
>>
>>Can but not must --- that's what I thought. I wondered if you meant
>>Florida had some weird law about it.
>
> An understandable mistake. If there's a law that unfairly restricts
> or controls the rights of any group, look for Florida or Texas as the
> source.

:-)

> While not a problem over taking the husband's last name, the worst
> experience my wife had as a second-class citizen was in Illinois in
> the 1970s.
>
> We were living in Florida, and my wife had flown to Illinois for a
> family member's funeral. She flew from Orlando to O'Hare airport in
> Chicago where she was to rent a car and drive to Rockford IL.
>
> She had a credit card, but it bore only my name. She'd been using the
> card for some time without a problem, but Hertz (and the other rental
> car firms) would only accept a credit card that showed the renter's
> name. No one would rent her a car.
>
> She finally got hold of me on the phone, and I had to FAX Hertz
> permission for her to charge on that card. That required clearance
> from the issuing bank in a separate FAX for me to submit the proper
> clearance.
>
> Hertz would not accept my phoned permission.
>
> She was delayed for several hours and built up enough steam to power a
> locomotive. Typically, she blamed me even though it was common in
> those days for credit card companies to issue cards only in one name,
> and for those cards to be accepted without question everywhere else.
>
> By the time she got back from the trip, I had contacted everyone we
> had cards with (we had several "store cards" with department stores)
> and had them issue cards with her name. That's standard practice
> today with any credit card, but it wasn't in those days.

I guess when additional cards were issued that way, most retailers
were used to it, but car rental companies were pickier because they
had an asset at stake that was worth a lot more than the rental fees.

--
You could tell by the way that he talked, though, that he had gone to
school a long time. That was probably what was wrong with him. George
had been wise enough to get out of school as soon as possible. He
didn't want to end up like that guy. [A Conf. of Dunces]

On 2022-05-12 03:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 12/05/2022 6:27 am, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 11/05/2022 à 17:40, Ken Blake a écrit :
>>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 22:35:18 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>>
>>>> In AmE, I understand, the only adjective that inflects for gender is
>>>> blond/blonde. Strangely this is not a word that inflects for gender
>>>> in BrE.
>>>
>>> I don't know about BrE, but in AmE, it used to, but very rarely does
>>> these days.
>>>
>>> Is it the only adjective that does (did?)? I don't know.
>>
>> In the past, I think there was an assumption that educated people knew
>> French, in Britain at least;
>
> The assumption is correct. We all learn French at school.

Is that true in the UK?

In Canada, when I went to school, a language (foreign of course) was
mandatory only for those on an academic path, leading to university
acceptance. The language could be chosen from any that were offered.

I had the choice of French or Latin at the high school nearest me (it
was about 5 blocks from my home). I did not want to take either of them,
Latin being (in my opinion) useless, and French being, well, French.

So I chose German, and attended grade 10 at a school that was a 20
minute bus ride.

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:31:18 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 12/05/22 05:08, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > On 11-May-22 18:14, Stefan Ram wrote:

> >> I wrote it for the English learners reading this group.
> > Interesting. I assumed that the "English learners" each start a
> > thread by asking a question, and only ever look at the responses to
> > those specific questions.
> > I don't recall any occasions when they have popped up in an existing
> > thread to ask a question. (Or is my recall faulty?)
>
> Don't forget the lurkers. Apparently there used to be many in AUE:
> people who wanted to read the group but didn't feel confident enough in
> English to post anything. (But I've forgotten how I found that out.)
>
> I have no idea whether we still have lurkers.

"Snipe" just claimed to be one.