In article <slrnt7jqra.vhv.g.kreme@zephyrus.local>,
Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> > * Ken Blake:

> >> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
> >>>written.
> >>
> >> So have I.

> > Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
> > Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
> > name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
> > who've done this kind of change.

> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?

> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.

> > Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
> > Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
> > they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
> > anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
> > ones) have been women.

> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and it
> is a frequent nickname for Julie.

I've known both sexes called Jules. My impresson was that the female used
"Jules" to hide her identity - she was an army officer.

> --

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

* Tony Cooper:

> On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>written.
>>>
>>> So have I.
>>
>>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>who've done this kind of change.
>>
>
> I assume you figured it out. It used to be very common to do it that
> way using née to indicate her maiden name but the current trend seems
> to be just write "his wife Miranda (Harvey)...".
>
> It's better to write "Ian and Miranda (Harvey) Rankin live in
> Edinburgh".

And then I have to figure out what the parentheses mean, different from
that, in an obituary:

... father of Dion (Chris), Cedric (Julie) of Montreal, and Troy
(Maxine) and Paul (Maxine) of Barbados. Eldest son of predeceased...

I may not have the expected routine because I don't read death notices
regularly, but I read this because I know one of the children, so
figured out that it's the name of the partner of the person before the
parenthesis.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:18:47 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>* Ken Blake:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>written.
>>>>
>>>> So have I.
>>>
>>>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>>Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>>name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>>who've done this kind of change.
>>>
>>
>> I assume you figured it out. It used to be very common to do it that
>> way using née to indicate her maiden name but the current trend seems
>> to be just write "his wife Miranda (Harvey)...".
>>
>> It's better to write "Ian and Miranda (Harvey) Rankin live in
>> Edinburgh".
>
>And then I have to figure out what the parentheses mean, different from
>that, in an obituary:
>
> ... father of Dion (Chris), Cedric (Julie) of Montreal, and Troy
> (Maxine) and Paul (Maxine) of Barbados. Eldest son of predeceased...
>
>I may not have the expected routine because I don't read death notices
>regularly, but I read this because I know one of the children, so
>figured out that it's the name of the partner of the person before the
>parenthesis.

Standard obit style as long as I can remember. Once seen, it becomes
clear.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
> ones) have been women.

I know only the Broadway composer Jule Styne (*Gypsy*, *Funny Girl*),
pronounced "Julie" -- OMG, he was a Brit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jule_Styne

and the director Jules Dassin -- who I always assumed was French,
but I learned from the *Naked City* (movie) DVD that he was a nize
Jewish boy from New York -- "joolz DASS-in."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dassin

On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Ken Blake:
>
>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>written.
>>
>> So have I.
>
>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>Miranda (née Harvey)",
>I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>name from Harvey to Miranda.

Just in case you still don't understand, no, she changed her name from
Miranda Harvey to Miranda Rankin.

> I might know too many people at this point
>who've done this kind of change.ve encountered (including fictional
>ones) have been women.

* Lewis:

> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Ken Blake:
>
>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>written.
>>>
>>> So have I.
>
>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>> who've done this kind of change.
>
> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?

First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
would never have happened with "Smith".
> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.

But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.

I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about
this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me having the
same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful this was her
actual legal name.

And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name" rather
than "deadname".

>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
>> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
>> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
>> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
>> ones) have been women.
>
> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and it
> is a frequent nickname for Julie.

I guess that must be the source of it, then. I hadn't seen a case where
I knew they were officially "Julie".

--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

* Ken Blake:

> On Mon, 9 May 2022 23:21:29 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Ken Blake:
>>
>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>written.
>>>
>>> So have I.
>>
>>Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>Miranda (née Harvey)",
>>I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>name from Harvey to Miranda.
>
> Just in case you still don't understand, no, she changed her name from
> Miranda Harvey to Miranda Rankin.

I don't think that first thought survived for a whole second in my mind.
It was very, may I say: transitional.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Lewis:
>
>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>written.
>>>>
>>>> So have I.
>>
>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>
>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>
>First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
>would never have happened with "Smith".
>
>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>
>But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.

It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.

It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
another first name or is known by a different first name than her
birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.

Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.

In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.

It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
include what is published in web pages.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

[née]

>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>> outdated.
>
> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>
> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>
> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>
> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>
> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
> include what is published in web pages.

As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage". It means "born".
So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for the name change. But
of course in English it doesn't, so far.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> [née]

>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>> outdated.
>>
>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>
>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>
>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>
>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>
>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>> include what is published in web pages.

> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".

Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.

> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.

The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
changes his name) after marriage.

> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".

It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
is née and wtf is né?

--
Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 02:40:22 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> [née]
>
>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>>> outdated.
>>>
>>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>>
>>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>>
>>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>>
>>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>>
>>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>>> include what is published in web pages.
>
>> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>
>Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
>
>> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>
>The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
>seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
>changes his name) after marriage.
>
>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>
>It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
>is née and wtf is né?

The Seekers of a Shubbery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e2kaQqxmQ0

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
>>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> [née]
>
>>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
>>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
>>>> outdated.
>>>
>>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
>>>
>>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
>>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
>>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
>>>
>>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
>>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
>>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
>>>
>>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
>>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
>>>
>>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
>>> include what is published in web pages.
>
>> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
>
> Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
>
>> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
>> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
>
> The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
> seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
> changes his name) after marriage.
>
>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>
> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
> is née and wtf is né?

As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.

Le mercredi 11 mai 2022 à 05:46:08 UTC+2, lar3ryca a écrit :
> On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
> >>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >> [née]
> >
> >>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> >>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
> >>>> outdated.
> >>>
> >>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
> >>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
> >>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
> >>>
> >>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
> >>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
> >>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
> >>>
> >>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
> >>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
> >>>
> >>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
> >>> include what is published in web pages.
> >
> >> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
> >
> > Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
> >
> >> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> >> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
> >
> > The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
> > seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
> > changes his name) after marriage.
> >
> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >
> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
> > is née and wtf is né?
> As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.

That's because, in English, the word is much more often used
in reference to women, i.e. as "née" (the final <e> marks the
feminine in French). However, M-W also has an entry for the
masculine form:

---
né adjective
\ ˈnā \
Definition of né (Entry 3 of 3)
1—used to indicate the original, former, or legal name of a man
Robert Roe, né John Doe
2: originally or formerly called
First Known Use of Ne
Adjective

1905, in the meaning defined at sense 1

History and Etymology for Ne
Adjective

French, literally, born — more at NÉE

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/n%C3%A9
___

On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>
> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
> word is née and wtf is né?

French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
without the acute accent.

We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
writing the accent.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In message <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
>>
>> It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
>> word is née and wtf is né?

> French adjectives inflect for gender,

Yes, I know, thus "confusing to anyone who is not a francophone".

> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> writing the accent.

Résumé puts paid to that.

--
You are in my inappropriate thoughts

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 8:46:08 PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-05-10 20:40, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
> >>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >> [née]
> >
> >>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> >>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
> >>>> outdated.
> >>>
> >>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
> >>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
> >>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
> >>>
> >>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
> >>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
> >>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
> >>>
> >>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
> >>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
> >>>
> >>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
> >>> include what is published in web pages.
> >
> >> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
> >
> > Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
> >
> >> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> >> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
> >
> > The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
> > seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
> > changes his name) after marriage.
> >
> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >
> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
> > is née and wtf is né?

> As far as I can remember, I have only seen it written 'nee'.

My home Oxford, which is 35 or 40 years from its printing, has ne' as a man's
name at birth. There seems to be an implication that his name is something
different now than when he was born.

bill

Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
> without the acute accent.
>
> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> writing the accent.

It's difficult to have everyone agree.

I think I'd say a word is naturalised when a majority of speakers treat
it as native - pronunciation, pluralisation, inflection or not for
gender, conjugation if it's a verb, and so on.

An example that seems to be stuck halfway is 'homage'. For myself, I'd
treat it as naturalised, and pronounce it à l'anglaise (hɒmɪdʒ) - yet I
hear a lot of people try to do so à la française, while voicing the 'h'
instead of saying 'omaage (ɔmaʒ). I wish they'd spare us this hybrid.

On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>
>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>> née is
>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>> the
>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>> sometimes
>> without the acute accent.
>>
>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>> writing the accent.
>
> It's difficult to have everyone agree.

No, it's not.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On Tue, 10 May 2022 22:51:21 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2022 02:40:22 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>
> >In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 11/05/22 04:02, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 13:22:02 -0400, Quinn C
> >>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >> [née]
> >
> >>>> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> >>>> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems
> >>>> outdated.
> >>>
> >>> It's "limited" by convention and by style sheets of the publication.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't used when a woman changes from her birth first name to
> >>> another first name or is known by a different first name than her
> >>> birth first name. It's only used to designated the maiden name.
> >>>
> >>> Because it has a conventional and known meaning, it would confuse
> >>> people to see Mary (née John) Smith where Mary transistioned from
> >>> John. Reader would assume that Mary's maiden name was John.
> >>>
> >>> In the case of a Mary who had transitioned, the more understandable
> >>> form would be "Mary (formerly John) Smith.
> >>>
> >>> It - née - is only seen in publications, and "publications" does
> >>> include what is published in web pages.
> >
> >> As a French word, née does not mean "before marriage".
> >
> >Which is relevant in alt.usage.french.
> >
> >> It means "born". So it *should* apply regardless of the reason for
> >> the name change. But of course in English it doesn't, so far.
> >
> >The dictionary seems to imply it COULD be used that way, but I have only
> >seen it used for a woman who changes her name (not even used when a man
> >changes his name) after marriage.
> >
> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >
> >It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the word
> >is née and wtf is né?
>
> The Seekers of a Shubbery
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e2kaQqxmQ0
>
I say, what a nice knee.

You 'ave a loverly nees </Shifty character>

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Wed, 11 May 2022 06:58:05 +0100
Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >>
> >> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
> >> née is
> >> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
> >> the
> >> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
> >> sometimes
> >> without the acute accent.
> >>
> >> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> >> writing the accent.
> >
> > It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>
> No, it's not.
>
>
You're all individuals!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2022-05-10, Quinn C wrote:

> * Lewis:
>
>> In message <uijqakenhi68$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Ken Blake:
>>
>>>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 18:12:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Rankin is a "must read" author for me, and I've read every book he's
>>>>>written.
>>>>
>>>> So have I.
>>
>>> Reading on his Wikipedia page "He lives in Edinburgh with his wife,
>>> Miranda (née Harvey)", I thought for a moment that she had changed her
>>> name from Harvey to Miranda. I might know too many people at this point
>>> who've done this kind of change.
>>
>> Very odd thing to think. Have you not seen née before?
>
> First, it has a lot to do with "Harvey" being a common first name. It
> would never have happened with "Smith".
>
>> née: originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden
>> name after her surname): Mary Toogood, née Johnson.
>
> But why should it be limited to women who changed their name upon
> marriage? To single that one case of name change out seems outdated.
>
> I live in a place where changing your last name upon marriage has not
> been offered by the law for 50 years, so some people do forget about

"not been offered" = the wife cannot change surname on marriage, or
just that it isn't the default?

> this old custom. I had people be confused by my spouse and me having the
> same last name - or maybe not confused, but just doubtful this was her
> actual legal name.
>
> And some trans people talk of their former name as "birth name" rather
> than "deadname".
>
>>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from Jules to
>>> Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That confused me, since
>>> they are both male-associated names to me. But thinking about it, most
>>> anglophone people named Jules I've encountered (including fictional
>>> ones) have been women.
>>
>> The only person I've ever known who was named Jules was female, and it
>> is a frequent nickname for Julie.
>
> I guess that must be the source of it, then. I hadn't seen a case where
> I knew they were officially "Julie".
>

--
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
---President Muffley

On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:

> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>>
>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>> née is
>>> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although
>>> the
>>> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and
>>> sometimes
>>> without the acute accent.
>>>
>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
>>> writing the accent.
>>
>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>
> No, it's not.

Oh yes it is.

--
Ambassador Trentino: "I am willing to do anything to prevent this
war."
President Firefly: "It's too late. I've already paid a month's
rent on the battlefield." _Duck Soup_

On 11/05/22 19:30, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-05-11, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 11/05/2022 6:55 am, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 11/05/2022 à 05:49, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and
>>>> née is feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English -
>>>> although the feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes
>>>> with and sometimes without the acute accent.
>>>>
>>>> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone
>>>> stops writing the accent.
>>>
>>> It's difficult to have everyone agree.
>>
>> No, it's not.
>
> Oh yes it is.

Behind you!

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 5/10/2022 11:38 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Quinn C wrote:

>> Recently I heard about someone changing their (first) name from
>> Jules to Ozzie, apparently for gender-related reasons. That
>> confused me, since they are both male-associated names to me. But
>> thinking about it, most anglophone people named Jules I've
>> encountered (including fictional ones) have been women.

> I know only the Broadway composer Jule Styne (*Gypsy*, *Funny
> Girl*), pronounced "Julie" -- OMG, he was a Brit

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jule_Styne

> and the director Jules Dassin -- who I always assumed was French, but
> I learned from the *Naked City* (movie) DVD that he was a nize Jewish
> boy from New York -- "joolz DASS-in."

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Dassin

We can assume M. Massenet was French. I do, anyway.

In article <t5ff9p$qim$1@dont-email.me>, peter@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...
>
> On 11/05/22 12:40, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <t5f13t$b48$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> > <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with "Quinn, né Oliver".
> >
> > It would be confusing to anyone who is not a francophone, since the
> > word is née and wtf is né?
>
> French adjectives inflect for gender, so né is masculine and née is
> feminine. I've seen both forms imported into English - although the
> feminine one is obviously more common - sometimes with and sometimes
> without the acute accent.
>
> We can say that it's naturalised into English once everyone stops
> writing the accent.

In BrE, the gender distinction between nee and ne is as commonly
recognised as that between fiancee/fiance. With or without accent.

Chauffeur/chauffeuse, maitre/maitresse are still recognisable

Janet