On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:43:02 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <2d5a6f67-385b-4cb4-992a-55ae99ff9198n @googlegroups..com> :
> Wrote on Sun, 22 May 2022 06:32:27 -0700 (PDT):
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:33:11 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> >> * "Peter T. Daniels" <905108dd-7b84-4b58-9922-935dc6ae93fen @googlegroups.com> :
> >> Wrote on Sat, 21 May 2022 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT):
> >> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:43:49 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> >> >> * "Peter T. Daniels" <599d8f23-7c2b-4d9a-a60c-bf8c546a5aa8n
> >> >> @googlegroups.com> :
> >> >> Wrote on Fri, 20 May 2022 06:39:55 -0700 (PDT):
> >> >> > You needn't believe Gustave Doré or Cecil B. DeMille. The whole
> >> >> > Decalogue -- and the whole Holiness Code, for that matter --
> >> >> > could have been inscribed on a couple of pocket-size cuneiform
> >> >> > tablets. I once did a popular talk (for an "archeology club" of
> >> >> > senior citizens, in a dining room over a Chinese restaurant on
> >> >> > the Upper West Side) on what the Ten Commandments might have
> >> >> > actually looked like. It was before PowerPoint, so I did a paper
> >> >> > handout with a variety of images, starting with a temple in
> >> >> > Yonkers whose facade is in the traditional "two stone tablets
> >> >> > with arched top" shape, with ten Hebrew letters in two columns.
> >> >> So you said they were 2 copies of 10 commandments and not 5
> >> >> commandments on each
> >> > Hunh?
> >> >> Remember - the first sets were written on both sides.
> >> > I remember no such thing. Neither Doré nor DeMille depicted any
> >> > such thing.
> >> I guess you didn't read beyond this and your eyes glazed over the
> >> quoted portions of the bible. this is the second time you have done
> >> that.
> > Your "Remember" was inappropriate.
> >
> >> the following are not random quotes but were quoted for a reason because
> >> they are relevant to what I asked:
> >
> > That's very nice, but what you asked wasn't relevant to your "question"
> > about the facade of the synagogue.
> >
> > Literally the FIRST Google Images hit for < synagogues yonkers ny >
> > was exactly what I was talking about. It's visible from Central Avenue,
> > the main commercial highway running north from NYC.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Park_Jewish_Center
> I found this pic of the old synagogue
> https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/522cd6e2e4b0a015e8d5c331/1516143622587-M4B16QCCPJEC67U4I59M/Old+Synagogue+Pic+copy.jpg
>
> There are four tablets each depicting 5 characters (I couldn;t tell if
> they if the alphabet was in order or what the characters were)

On the right are the Hebrew numerals 1-5 (Aleph through He) and 6-10
(Waw through Yod). On the left are the roman numerals I-X, likewise five
per column (tablet). I don't recall the left-had set being visible from the road.

The photographer is standing at the curb. Behind them is a street,
then a chain-link fence or other barrier, then the six- or eight-lane
highway that is Central Avenue.

> . presumably the pair on the right are front and back of the first
> tablet (aleph to he on the front, wav to yud on the back) , and the pair
> on the left are the front and back of the second.

Nonsense.

> So this pattern suggests the two tablets were not two copies of each
> other, but each contained half of the commandments.

Nonsense.

It suggests that many members of the congregation did not read
Hebrew -- or that they wanted the goyim to know what was depicted
on the main sculpture.

> The other view that I've heard is that each tablet contained all the
> commandments and there were two copies.

Where do you "hear" this?

> >> >> 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables
> >> >> of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their
> >> >> sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
> >> >> 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the
> >> >> writing of God, graven upon the tables.
> >> >> Moses broke (brake) those, but he made the second set on the same
> >> >> pattern
> >> >> 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like
> >> >> unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were
> >> >> in the first tables, which thou brakest.
> >> Any talk or representation of the tablets that doesn't take into account
> >> that both sides of each tablet were written on, is uninformed.
> > So what?
> > Doubtless if I looked at a commentary it would tell me that the various
> > accounts of the events are from different sources with different versions
> > of events, and only fundamentalists are concerned about a "harmony"
> > of contradictory stories.
>
> There isnt any contradiction in the text of exodus about the tablets,
> and that is your primary source, you can't ignore it.

There's a good 2000 years of iconography, which is the primary
source for visual depictions.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:17:49 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:33:11 AM UTC-6, Madhu wrote:
> >> * "Peter T. Daniels" <905108dd-7b84-4b58-9922-935dc6ae93fen @googlegroups.com> :
> >> Wrote on Sat, 21 May 2022 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT):
> >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:43:49 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
>
> >>>> 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like
> >>>> unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were
> >>>> in the first tables, which thou brakest.
> >
> >> Any talk or representation of the tablets that doesn't take into account
> >> that both sides of each tablet were written on, is uninformed.
> >
> > The Talmud says that means the letters were cut all the way through, and the
> > centers of the two closed letters, samekh and mem (that is, final mem) (so
> > they were written in the modern Hebrew alphabet), were held in place by a
> > miracle. Later authorities say the text miraculously looked the same from
> > either side, not with one side the mirror image of the other.
> >
> > (Also the stone was blue sapphire, and each tablet was about 18 by 18 by
> > 9 inches.)
> >
> > https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1114513/jewish/What-Did-the-Tablets-Look-Like.htm
> >
> > and references therein.

> That would make them on the order of 180 kg (400 lbs) each. I had to
> know.

Less the material that was removed to make the letters that went all the way
through. And according to Wikipedia, the "sapphire" may have been lapis
lazuli, which is lighter, to my surprise.

Still, another wisely invented tradition says the tablets "carried their own
weight".

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/611,81855/Can-you-give-me-all-the-necessary-basic-information-about-the-Tablets.html

I don't think they had aluminum oxide with that property in the physics
stockroom when I was in grad school.

--
Jerry Friedman

* Madhu:

> So this pattern suggests the two tablets were not two copies of each
> other, but each contained half of the commandments.
>
> The other view that I've heard is that each tablet contained all the
> commandments and there were two copies.

That's certainly the view that joke took that has God go to the ancient
stone mason "copy shop" and ask for 2 copies of 75 commandments, but
upon negotiation, the best they can do by the deadline is 10 of them.

--
Odo: I've met a lot of Ferengis in my time ... though some of
them may have been more wealthy, I've never met one more devious.
Quark: Thank you Odo, that means a lot to me.

On 23/05/22 01:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:34:10 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:33:11 AM UTC-6, Madhu wrote:
>
>>> Any talk or representation of the tablets that doesn't take into account
>>> that both sides of each tablet were written on, is uninformed.
>>
>> The Talmud says that means the letters were cut all the way through, and the
>> centers of the two closed letters, samekh and mem (that is, final mem) (so
>> they were written in the modern Hebrew alphabet), were held in place by a
>> miracle. Later authorities say the text miraculously looked the same from
>> either side, not with one side the mirror image of the other.
>>
>> (Also the stone was blue sapphire, and each tablet was about 18 by 18 by
>> 9 inches.)
>
> Wow. What would half a cubic cubit of sapphire weigh? Let alone two of them.

Not a problem. Moses only had to carry them downhill.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

* "Peter T. Daniels" <3f607f28-2ba2-4866-adf5-1f68455a6accn @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 22 May 2022 10:31:51 -0700 (PDT):
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:43:02 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
>> I found this pic of the old synagogue
>> https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/522cd6e2e4b0a015e8d5c331/1516143622587-M4B16QCCPJEC67U4I59M/Old+Synagogue+Pic+copy.jpg
>>
>> There are four tablets each depicting 5 characters (I couldn;t tell if
>> they if the alphabet was in order or what the characters were)
>
> On the right are the Hebrew numerals 1-5 (Aleph through He) and 6-10
> (Waw through Yod). On the left are the roman numerals I-X, likewise five
> per column (tablet). I don't recall the left-had set being visible from the road.
>
> The photographer is standing at the curb. Behind them is a street,
> then a chain-link fence or other barrier, then the six- or eight-lane
> highway that is Central Avenue.
>
>> . presumably the pair on the right are front and back of the first
>> tablet (aleph to he on the front, wav to yud on the back) , and the pair
>> on the left are the front and back of the second.
>
> Nonsense.

Not at all. I was right in reading the ALEF-HEY (1-5) and (WAV to YUD)
on the two tablets on the right, as you confirmed above.

>> So this pattern suggests the two tablets were not two copies of each
>> other, but each contained half of the commandments.
>
> Nonsense.

Right. My poor eyesight lead me to believe the whole alphabet was
represented on the four columns and not just the first 10 letters
representing the 10 commandments.

> It suggests that many members of the congregation did not read
> Hebrew -- or that they wanted the goyim to know what was depicted
> on the main sculpture.

So the depiction is of the 10 commandments spread over two tablets.

However to agree with the verses I quoted (that you are particular to
ignore) that the tablets were inscribed on both sides,

1. the same set of five commandments would be inscribed on both sides of
each tablets. I believe this is what the chabad site that Jerry pointed
out suggests, (I haven't followed the references yet and I didn't
understand what "mirror image" means on 2 faces of a sheet of paper)

2. each tablet contained all the commandments 5 on one side and 5 on the
other, so there were 2 copies.

>> The other view that I've heard is that each tablet contained all the
>> commandments and there were two copies.
>
> Where do you "hear" this?

I'm trying to recollect. I think I've read things to the effect that
there would be two copies of covenant-style documents of that period
(granted the decalogue is not a covenant) kept together. And I think the
local pastor mentioned it, and I wanted to confirm or deny the claim.
>
> There's a good 2000 years of iconography, which is the primary
> source for visual depictions.

So are there any artefacts that were inscribed on both sides? or is this
an anamoly

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:04:02 PM UTC-6, Madhu wrote:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <3f607f28-2ba2-4866-adf5-1f68455a6accn @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Sun, 22 May 2022 10:31:51 -0700 (PDT):
....

> So the depiction is of the 10 commandments spread over two tablets.
>
> However to agree with the verses I quoted (that you are particular to
> ignore) that the tablets were inscribed on both sides,
>
> 1. the same set of five commandments would be inscribed on both sides of
> each tablets. I believe this is what the chabad site that Jerry pointed
> out suggests, (I haven't followed the references yet and I didn't
> understand what "mirror image" means on 2 faces of a sheet of paper)

According to Shabbat 104a, the engraving was so deep that it went all
the way through. Why didn't the middle of every mem sofit and samekh
fall out? A miracle!

This would give a readable text on one side and a mirror image on the
other side--but it's said that by another miracle, it was correct on both
sides, neither being a mirror image.

> 2. each tablet contained all the commandments 5 on one side and 5 on the
> other, so there were 2 copies.
> >> The other view that I've heard is that each tablet contained all the
> >> commandments and there were two copies.
> >
> > Where do you "hear" this?
> I'm trying to recollect. I think I've read things to the effect that
> there would be two copies of covenant-style documents of that period
> (granted the decalogue is not a covenant) kept together. And I think the
> local pastor mentioned it, and I wanted to confirm or deny the claim.

Something like this question is debated in the Jerusalem Talmud near the
end of Shekalim 6:1.

--
Jerry Friedman has just learned all this in the last day or two.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:10:29 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 22/05/22 00:02, lar3ryca wrote:
> > On 2022-05-21 00:44, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >> On Fri, 20 May 2022 15:44:09 -0700 (PDT)
> >> "bil...@shaw.ca" <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:38:21 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>> * Kerr-Mudd, John:
> >>>>> (PS we all would like one of those staffs that can make water spring
> >>>>> forth. No? I'm going back to graven images then).
> >>>> I don't dare defy the commandments outright, so I only have some vague
> >>>> craven images. Is that ok?
> >>>>
> >>> Yes, but no raven images. Nevermore.
> >>>
> >> "No Corvids where harmed in the making of this picture"
> >
> > Sometime in the early stages of the current pandemic, one of the newsies
> > on TV referred to it as 'Corvid-19".
> We also called it "mad crow disease".

We had both of those in Vancouver as well. Planet-wide communications are
far too good for that kind of thing to stay local for more than two seconds.

bill

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:04:02 PM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:

> So are there any artefacts that were inscribed on both sides? or is this
> an anamoly

I already mentioned clay tablets written with cuneiform.

* Jerry Friedman <03e84298-f28c-4d6c-9e39-801d2df45246n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 22 May 2022 20:53:37 -0700 (PDT):

> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:04:02 PM UTC-6, Madhu wrote:
>> * "Peter T. Daniels" <3f607f28-2ba2-4866-adf5-1f68455a6accn @googlegroups.com> :
>> Wrote on Sun, 22 May 2022 10:31:51 -0700 (PDT):
> ...
>> 1. the same set of five commandments would be inscribed on both sides of
>> each tablets. I believe this is what the chabad site that Jerry pointed
>> out suggests, (I haven't followed the references yet and I didn't
>> understand what "mirror image" means on 2 faces of a sheet of paper)
>
> According to Shabbat 104a, the engraving was so deep that it went all
> the way through. Why didn't the middle of every mem sofit and samekh
> fall out? A miracle!
>
> This would give a readable text on one side and a mirror image on the
> other side--but it's said that by another miracle, it was correct on both
> sides, neither being a mirror image.

That and Baba Batra 14a, the babylonian rabbis' primary concern seem to
have been the dimensions. (as you point out below, only the jerusalem
rabbis seem to have been interested in the layout).

If it were that exotic it would of course be a unique thing, I still
haven't figured out how common tablets with inscriptions on both sides
were in that age. (phew) But sticking to peshat exegesis the verses in
exodus should yield a simple physical configuration.

>> 2. each tablet contained all the commandments 5 on one side and 5 on the
>> other, so there were 2 copies.
>> >> The other view that I've heard is that each tablet contained all the
>> >> commandments and there were two copies.
>> >
>> > Where do you "hear" this?
>> I'm trying to recollect. I think I've read things to the effect that
>> there would be two copies of covenant-style documents of that period
>> (granted the decalogue is not a covenant) kept together. And I think the
>> local pastor mentioned it, and I wanted to confirm or deny the claim.
>
> Something like this question is debated in the Jerusalem Talmud near the
> end of Shekalim 6:1.

Thank you. the english translation soncino pdf of babylonian Shekalim
only has the mishna, and not the Jerusalem commentary as is customary of
other editions but I was able to find a translation at sefaria.org

https://www.sefaria.org/Jerusalem_Talmud_Shekalim.6.1
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/33515/are-there-any-good-commentaries-on-yerushalmi

The idea of two copies may also come from the talmudic speculation (both
talmuds) that the ark had the intact second set, as well as the ones
that moses broke. (four tablets paragraphs 5, 11, 12)

paragraph 14 exactly addresses the question, but i cannot account for
the reasoning of 40 words.

Oh well.

https://www.accidentaltalmudist.org/humor/2016/12/09/two-burglars-come-down-a-chimney-2/

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:19:11 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:

> If it were that exotic it would of course be a unique thing, I still
> haven't figured out how common tablets with inscriptions on both sides
> were in that age. (phew) But sticking to peshat exegesis the verses in
> exodus should yield a simple physical configuration.

It really doesn't take "figuring out." You simply need to decide what
you think a "tablet" is, and which "that age" you are talking about.

* Quinn C:

> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:33:11 AM UTC-6, Madhu wrote:
>>> * "Peter T. Daniels" <905108dd-7b84-4b58-9922-935dc6ae93fen @googlegroups.com> :
>>> Wrote on Sat, 21 May 2022 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT):
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:43:49 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
>
>>>>> 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like
>>>>> unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were
>>>>> in the first tables, which thou brakest.
>>
>>> Any talk or representation of the tablets that doesn't take into account
>>> that both sides of each tablet were written on, is uninformed.
>>
>> The Talmud says that means the letters were cut all the way through, and the
>> centers of the two closed letters, samekh and mem (that is, final mem) (so
>> they were written in the modern Hebrew alphabet), were held in place by a
>> miracle. Later authorities say the text miraculously looked the same from
>> either side, not with one side the mirror image of the other.
>>
>> (Also the stone was blue sapphire, and each tablet was about 18 by 18 by
>> 9 inches.)
>>
>> https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1114513/jewish/What-Did-the-Tablets-Look-Like.htm
>>
>> and references therein.
>
> That would make them on the order of 180 kg (400 lbs) each. I had to
> know.

It seems no original size copies are provided here:

<https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2022/05/24>

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)