On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>substations.
>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>lived>>>>>
>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>mincemeat
>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet Russia
>>is
>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>oligarch
>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>
>>>>> ===
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>
>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>
>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>> what it means.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>
>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>
>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>
>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>him.
>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.

On Wednesday, 9 March 2022 at 16:22:05 UTC-4, John H wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
> >>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
> >>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9....@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
> >>substations.
> >>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
> >lived>>>>>
> >>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
> >>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
> >>mincemeat
> >>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet Russia
> >>is
> >>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
> >>oligarch
> >>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ===
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
> >>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
> >>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
> >>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
> >>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
> >>>>
> >>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
> >>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
> >>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
> >>>> like a cornered snake.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
> >>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
> >>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
> >>>> what it means.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
> >>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
> >>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
> >>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
> >>
> >>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
> >>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
> >>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
> >>
> >>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
> >
> >Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
> >Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
> >lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
> >him.
> >He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
> >happen without a bigger war than he planned.
> >It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
> >what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
> >Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
> >It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
> >that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
> don't recall it.
>
> Perhaps I'm just getting old!

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 06:50:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 8:37 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>> substations.
>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>> lived>>>>>
>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>> mincemeat
>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
Russia
>>> is
>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>> oligarch
>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>
>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>
>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>
>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>> him.
>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>Don't understand how you think comparing Putin to be more
>like Stalin or Hitler as compared to Gorbachev is "hyperbole".
>
>I am sure you are aware of all of their backgrounds and ambitions.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>substations.
>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>lived>>>>>
>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>mincemeat
>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
Russia
>>>is
>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>oligarch
>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>
>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>
>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>
>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>him.
>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>
>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>don't recall it.
>
>Perhaps I'm just getting old!

On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>substations.
>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>lived>>>>>
>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
Loma
>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>mincemeat
>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>Russia
>>>>is
>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>oligarch
>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>
>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>
>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>him.
>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>
>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>don't recall it.
>>
>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>
>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>stupid".
>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>was just a threat.

True North wrote:
> On Wednesday, 9 March 2022 at 16:22:05 UTC-4, John H wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>> substations.
>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet Russia
>>>> is
>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>> oligarch
>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>> ==>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>> him.
>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>> don't recall it.
>>
>> Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>
> ....or stupid!

On Wednesday, 9 March 2022 at 20:51:03 UTC-4, Alex wrote:
> True North wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 9 March 2022 at 16:22:05 UTC-4, John H wrote:
> >> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
> >>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
> >>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not....@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
> >>>> substations.
> >>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
> >>> lived>>>>>
> >>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway..>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
> >>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
> >>>> mincemeat
> >>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet Russia
> >>>> is
> >>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall.. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
> >>>> oligarch
> >>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
> >>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
> >>>>>>> ===
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
> >>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
> >>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
> >>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
> >>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
> >>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
> >>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
> >>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
> >>>>>> like a cornered snake.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
> >>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
> >>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
> >>>>>> what it means.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
> >>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
> >>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
> >>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
> >>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
> >>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
> >>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
> >>>>
> >>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
> >>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
> >>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
> >>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
> >>> him.
> >>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
> >>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
> >>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
> >>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
> >>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back..
> >>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
> >>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
> >> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
> >> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
> >> don't recall it.
> >>
> >> Perhaps I'm just getting old!
> >
> > ....or stupid!
> Dipshit.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>substations.
>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>lived>>>>>
>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>Loma
>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>mincemeat
>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>Russia
>>>>>is
>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>>oligarch
>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>
>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>
>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>him.
>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>
>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>don't recall it.
>>>
>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>
>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>stupid".
>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>was just a threat.
>
>Well, partially!

On 3/9/2022 3:22 PM, John H wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>> substations.
>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>> lived>>>>>
>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>> mincemeat
>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet Russia
>>> is
>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>> oligarch
>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>
>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>
>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>
>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>> him.
>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>
> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
> don't recall it.
>
> Perhaps I'm just getting old!

Click here to read the complete article

On 3/9/2022 6:35 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>> substations.
>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
> Russia
>>>> is
>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>> oligarch
>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>
>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>
>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>> him.
>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>
>> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>> don't recall it.
>>
>> Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>
> On 2/27 in this thread I said
> "Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
> Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
> stupid".
> There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
> was just a threat.

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On 3/10/2022 12:55 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>> substations.
>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>> Loma
>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>> Russia
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>>> oligarch
>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>> him.
>>>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>>
>>>> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>> don't recall it.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>>
>>> On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>> "Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>> Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>> stupid".
>>> There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>> was just a threat.
>>
>> Well, partially!
>
> Putin laid out 4 conditions.
> 1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
> 2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
> 3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
> 4. Everyone stop shooting.
>
> The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
> gets that, the war is over.
> I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
> kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
> administration.
> It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
> Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
> and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
> They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
> and they are culturally of Russian heritage.

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On 3/9/2022 6:27 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 06:50:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 8:37 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>> substations.
>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>> Loma
>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
> Russia
>>>> is
>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>> oligarch
>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>
>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>
>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>
>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>> him.
>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>> Don't understand how you think comparing Putin to be more
>> like Stalin or Hitler as compared to Gorbachev is "hyperbole".
>>
>> I am sure you are aware of all of their backgrounds and ambitions.
>
> Hitler and to some extent Stalin are in a class of evil all to
> themselves. Putin is just another Russian politician who is using
> nationalism to protect his phony baloney job.
>
> To start with Putin has nowhere near the rabid following Hitler had. I
> know he is suppressing dissent as much as he can but Russia isn't
> China and there may be a limit to how much he can actually control
> public opinion. If he loses his big money men, he might find himself
> relegated to a dacha on the black sea or in an unmarked grave.
> I still say he is going to settle for the Eastern Russian speaking
> region and keeping Ukraine out of NATO in the near future. The rest of
> the invasion was an overreach or maybe just a negotiating tactic. He
> has already made that offer.

Click here to read the complete article

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:27:22 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
wrote:

>On 3/9/2022 6:27 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 06:50:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 8:37 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>> substations.
>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>Loma
>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>> Russia
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>> oligarch
>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>> him.
>>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>> Don't understand how you think comparing Putin to be more
>>> like Stalin or Hitler as compared to Gorbachev is "hyperbole".
>>>
>>> I am sure you are aware of all of their backgrounds and ambitions.
>>
>> Hitler and to some extent Stalin are in a class of evil all to
>> themselves. Putin is just another Russian politician who is using
>> nationalism to protect his phony baloney job.
>>
>> To start with Putin has nowhere near the rabid following Hitler had. I
>> know he is suppressing dissent as much as he can but Russia isn't
>> China and there may be a limit to how much he can actually control
>> public opinion. If he loses his big money men, he might find himself
>> relegated to a dacha on the black sea or in an unmarked grave.
>> I still say he is going to settle for the Eastern Russian speaking
>> region and keeping Ukraine out of NATO in the near future. The rest of
>> the invasion was an overreach or maybe just a negotiating tactic. He
>> has already made that offer.
>
>Hitler had fewer rabid followers than you might think. The power he
>had was the fear of being eliminated if you didn't obey.
>
>Putin is much the same.

On 3/10/2022 11:29 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:27:22 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/9/2022 6:27 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 06:50:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:37 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>> substations.
>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>> Loma
>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>> Russia
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>>> oligarch
>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>> him.
>>>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>> Don't understand how you think comparing Putin to be more
>>>> like Stalin or Hitler as compared to Gorbachev is "hyperbole".
>>>>
>>>> I am sure you are aware of all of their backgrounds and ambitions.
>>>
>>> Hitler and to some extent Stalin are in a class of evil all to
>>> themselves. Putin is just another Russian politician who is using
>>> nationalism to protect his phony baloney job.
>>>
>>> To start with Putin has nowhere near the rabid following Hitler had. I
>>> know he is suppressing dissent as much as he can but Russia isn't
>>> China and there may be a limit to how much he can actually control
>>> public opinion. If he loses his big money men, he might find himself
>>> relegated to a dacha on the black sea or in an unmarked grave.
>>> I still say he is going to settle for the Eastern Russian speaking
>>> region and keeping Ukraine out of NATO in the near future. The rest of
>>> the invasion was an overreach or maybe just a negotiating tactic. He
>>> has already made that offer.
>>
>> Hitler had fewer rabid followers than you might think. The power he
>> had was the fear of being eliminated if you didn't obey.
>>
>> Putin is much the same.
>
> Pussy Riot would have been in the gas chamber or simply taken out and
> shot the first time they spoke up in Nazi Germany. We also have not
> seen millions of other ethnic citizens go to the camps. It is an
> insult to them to try to equate the two.
> Russia is not a Jeffersonian Democracy but neither is Egypt and we
> installed that government, supporting the coup that tossed out the
> democratically elected leader, simply because they said they would not
> attack Israel. Human rights was put on the back burner and forgotten.
> We don't have a very good history in a lot of places around the globe
> in that regard. Cordell Hull made the policy "He may be a bastard but
> he is our bastard" that has survived for the next 85 years or so.
> It doesn't matter whether you are talking about the Shah, the various
> banana republic dictators we installed or Sisi, we have no problem
> with autocrats as long as they are good for American interests.
> I doubt the US government is really that upset with Putin either but
> they need to put on the show. We have far more to fear from China and
> we are mum about it.
> I am curious how we will deal with them taking Taiwan. That is far
> more important than some obscure areas in Eastern Ukraine that most
> Americans couldn't even point out on a map and contribute virtually
> nothing to the world.
> Based on how Hong Kong went, we may do nothing. I don't accept the
> idea that Hong Kong was destined to go back to China because of an
> agreement between UK and the Qing dynasty in China that doesn't even
> exist there now. They could have just as easily given it to Taiwan who
> are the vestiges of the Republic of China that Qing became. It might
> also be argued that the deal was invalidated when Japan took Hong Kong
> in the years before WWII and the US/UK had to take it back, along with
> most of mainland China. It was simply because there wasn't much the
> UK could do to stop it. Will the US start WWIII to save Taiwan?
> Sanctions and outrage rhetoric will have less effect on the Chinese
> government than our sanctions have on Putin. Our biggest fear should
> be that they would sanction us.

Click here to read the complete article

On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>>substations.
>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>>lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>>Loma
>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>>mincemeat
>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>>Russia
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>>>oligarch
>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>>him.
>>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>>
>>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>>don't recall it.
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>>
>>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>>stupid".
>>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>>was just a threat.
>>
>>Well, partially!
>
>Putin laid out 4 conditions.
>1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
>2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
>3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
>4. Everyone stop shooting.
>
>The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
>gets that, the war is over.
>I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
>kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
>administration.
>It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
>Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
>and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
>They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
>and they are culturally of Russian heritage.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:59:53 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>>>substations.
>>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>>>lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>>>Loma
>>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>>>mincemeat
>>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>>>Russia
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>>>>oligarch
>>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>>>him.
>>>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>>>don't recall it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>>>
>>>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>>>stupid".
>>>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>>>was just a threat.
>>>
>>>Well, partially!
>>
>>Putin laid out 4 conditions.
>>1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
>>2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
>>3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
>>4. Everyone stop shooting.
>>
>>The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
>>gets that, the war is over.
>>I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
>>kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
>>administration.
>>It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
>>Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
>>and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
>>They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
>>and they are culturally of Russian heritage.
>
>You forgot 'demilitarization and neutral status', or did I miss it in
>your predictions?

On 3/11/2022 11:37 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:59:53 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>>>> substations.
>>>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>>>> lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>>>> Loma
>>>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>>>> mincemeat
>>>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>>>> Russia
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>> Some
>>>>>>>> oligarch
>>>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>>>> genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>>>> relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>>>> Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>>>> lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>> He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>>>> happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>>>> It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>>>> what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>>>> Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>>>> It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>>>> that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>>>> recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>>>> don't recall it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>>>> "Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>>>> Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>>>> stupid".
>>>>> There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>>>> was just a threat.
>>>>
>>>> Well, partially!
>>>
>>> Putin laid out 4 conditions.
>>> 1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
>>> 2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
>>> 3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
>>> 4. Everyone stop shooting.
>>>
>>> The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
>>> gets that, the war is over.
>>> I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
>>> kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
>>> administration.
>>> It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
>>> Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
>>> and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
>>> They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
>>> and they are culturally of Russian heritage.
>>
>> You forgot 'demilitarization and neutral status', or did I miss it in
>> your predictions?
>
> I thought demilitarization and neutral status was a plus. It would be
> an effective buffer between Russia and Ukraine and that is good for
> everyone.

Click here to read the complete article

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:37:57 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:59:53 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>>>>substations.
>>>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>>>>lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in the>>>>
>>>>Loma
>>>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could make
>>>>>>>>mincemeat
>>>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>>>>Russia
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>>
Some
>>>>>>>>oligarch
>>>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>>>>him.
>>>>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>>>>don't recall it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>>>>
>>>>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>>>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>>>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>>>>stupid".
>>>>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>>>>was just a threat.
>>>>
>>>>Well, partially!
>>>
>>>Putin laid out 4 conditions.
>>>1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
>>>2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
>>>3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
>>>4. Everyone stop shooting.
>>>
>>>The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
>>>gets that, the war is over.
>>>I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
>>>kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
>>>administration.
>>>It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
>>>Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
>>>and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
>>>They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
>>>and they are culturally of Russian heritage.
>>
>>You forgot 'demilitarization and neutral status', or did I miss it in
>>your predictions?
>
>I thought demilitarization and neutral status was a plus. It would be
>an effective buffer between Russia and Ukraine and that is good for
>everyone.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 17:04:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:37:57 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:59:53 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <nothere@noland.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>>>>>>>>>substations.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
>>>>>>>>lived>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in
the>>>>
>>>>>Loma
>>>>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could
make
>>>>>>>>>mincemeat
>>>>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
>>>>>>Russia
>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>>
>Some
>>>>>>>>>oligarch
>>>>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>>>>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>>>>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>>>>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>>>>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>>>>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>>>>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>>>>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>>>>>>>>>>> what it means.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>>>>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>>>>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>>>>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>>>>>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>>>>>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>>>>>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>>>>>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>>>>>>>>him.
>>>>>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>>>>>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>>>>>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>>>>>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>>>>>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>>>>>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>>>>>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>>>>>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>>>>>>>don't recall it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>>>>>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>>>>>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>>>>>>stupid".
>>>>>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>>>>>>was just a threat.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, partially!
>>>>
>>>>Putin laid out 4 conditions.
>>>>1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
>>>>2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
>>>>3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
>>>>4. Everyone stop shooting.
>>>>
>>>>The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
>>>>gets that, the war is over.
>>>>I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
>>>>kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
>>>>administration.
>>>>It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
>>>>Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
>>>>and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
>>>>They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
>>>>and they are culturally of Russian heritage.
>>>
>>>You forgot 'demilitarization and neutral status', or did I miss it in
>>>your predictions?
>>
>>I thought demilitarization and neutral status was a plus. It would be
>>an effective buffer between Russia and Ukraine and that is good for
>>everyone.
>
>Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?

On Monday, 14 March 2022 at 03:12:11 UTC-3, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 17:04:02 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:37:57 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >>On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:59:53 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
> >>>>>>>>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol..com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
> >>>>>>>>>substations.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind they
> >>>>>>>>lived>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in
> the>>>>
> >>>>>Loma
> >>>>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could
> make
> >>>>>>>>>mincemeat
> >>>>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles.. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post Soviet
> >>>>>>Russia
> >>>>>>>>>is
> >>>>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders..Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>>
> >Some
> >>>>>>>>>oligarch
> >>>>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ===
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
> >>>>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
> >>>>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
> >>>>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
> >>>>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
> >>>>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
> >>>>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
> >>>>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
> >>>>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
> >>>>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
> >>>>>>>>>>> what it means.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
> >>>>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
> >>>>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
> >>>>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
> >>>>>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
> >>>>>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
> >>>>>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
> >>>>>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
> >>>>>>>>him.
> >>>>>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
> >>>>>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
> >>>>>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
> >>>>>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
> >>>>>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
> >>>>>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
> >>>>>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
> >>>>>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
> >>>>>>>don't recall it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
> >>>>>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
> >>>>>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
> >>>>>>stupid".
> >>>>>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
> >>>>>>was just a threat.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Well, partially!
> >>>>
> >>>>Putin laid out 4 conditions.
> >>>>1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
> >>>>2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
> >>>>3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
> >>>>4. Everyone stop shooting.
> >>>>
> >>>>The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
> >>>>gets that, the war is over.
> >>>>I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
> >>>>kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
> >>>>administration.
> >>>>It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
> >>>>Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
> >>>>and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
> >>>>They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
> >>>>and they are culturally of Russian heritage.
> >>>
> >>>You forgot 'demilitarization and neutral status', or did I miss it in
> >>>your predictions?
> >>
> >>I thought demilitarization and neutral status was a plus. It would be
> >>an effective buffer between Russia and Ukraine and that is good for
> >>everyone.
> >
> >Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?
> Those people were polled and over 70% said they wanted to be more
> aligned to the Russians. They are Russian Orthodox, speak Russian and
> have a cultural connection with Russia. Why is that any of our
> business?
> If we don't watch what we do, this could be WWIII and that won't be
> good for anyone. It will be nuclear.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:10:02 -0700 (PDT), True North
<princecraft49@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, 14 March 2022 at 03:12:11 UTC-3, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 17:04:02 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:37:57 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:59:53 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:55:20 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 19:29:10 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:35:44 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>On Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:22:02 -0500, John H <jher...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 20:37:36 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:58:03 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
>> >>>>>>>>wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:27:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2022 10:56 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:40:21 AM UTC-5, justan wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2022 11:02 AM, waynebatr...@hotmail.com wrote:> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 8:41:21 AM UTC-5, John H wrote:>> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:02:12 -0500 (EST), justan <m...@here.com> wrote:>>>>> "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> On 3/3/2022 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 10:27:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>> wrote:> >> On 2/27/2022 12:46 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>> On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 05:34:09 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:03:35 -0000 (UTC), Bill>>>>>>> <califbill9...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since I don?t think they can defeat the amount of Russians Putin will throw>>>>>>>> at them, they should take the war to Russia. Start by blowing up the>>>>>>>> transformers at lots of major power
>> >>>>>>>>>substations.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Then mine bridges>>>>>>>> connecting major areas. Run a war against the people of Russia and make>>>>>>>> them stop Putin and his cronies. Would also stop most cyber attacks, as>>>>>>>> how long is the cyber>> computers>>> going to be able to run on auxiliary power,>>>>>>>> since the lack of power may take down the internet repeaters.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be the best way to insure Ukraine ends up a smoking hole on>>>>>>> the ground. Russians take attacks on their homeland seriously, much>>>>>>> like the US and they might send in a million soldiers with all the>>>>>>> technology they can bring to bear.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the modern technology, I don?t think Russia would do well. They may>>>>>> not depend on the internet as much as we do, but I bet it is a lot. How>>>>>> much starvation when they can not get orders to deliver food?>>>>>>>>>> I think you are overestimating what Ukraine could do and>>>>> underestimating the resilience of Russians. Bear in mind
they
>> >>>>>>>>lived>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the USSR for most of the 20th century where shortages were just a way>>>>> of life. They also have a couple hundred year tradition of repelling>>>>> invaders. Napoleon and Hitler found that out the hard way. They>> may>>>>>>>> have a generation or two of snowflakes but I doubt it.>>>>>>>>>> My bet is if Putin could sell the idea that Russia was being attacked,>>>>> Ukraine would cease to exist as a viable country.>>>>>>>>>> The reality is if they had just made some kind of agrement that the>>>>> Eastern regions, that would willingly go back to being Russia, be>>>>> allowed to, this whole thing might have been unnecessary. It is the>>>>> likely outcome anyway.>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don?t think it would take too many assets to bring Russia or the USA to a>>>> halt. Destroy the transformers at a few major power stations. How many>>>> spares are a available, and how long to build replacements? A few bridges>>>> taken out. Look how much havoc the San Francisco Bay taken out in
>> the>>>>
>> >>>>>Loma
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Prieta earthquake caused and how long to replace? A couple hundred>>>> people with a couple semi?s worth of explosives.>>>>>> You do not want to test the resolve of the second most powerful>>> military in the world by>>> attacking their homeland. A small gang of>>> terrorists brought down 2 buildings here and damaged a third. It gave>>> us the excuse to destroy three countries that were not responsible at>>> all. We still do not have a good count of how many people died.>>>>>> I realize your post is a few days old but based on the Russian military>> 's performance so far in Ukraine, it sure doesn't seem to be of the>> same caliber it was years ago. Several former US generals on the>> various cable networks all agree. Russia's invasion has been a>> clusterfuck so far. Munition malfunctions, logistical problems>> and a bunch of young conscripts who didn't even know why they were>> there.>>>> It's too bad the nuke issue hangs over this. I think US and NATO forces>> could
>> make
>> >>>>>>>>>mincemeat
>> >>>>>>>>>>> of the 40 mile long line of Russian tanks, missile>> launchers, troop transports and fuel trucks, all lined up three abreast>> for miles. A few A-10 Warthogs would probably due the trick.> > No doubt they are>>> fighting a "3d world" style war, assuming there is> no real opposition other than small arms fire on the ground.> It also appears the Russian soldiers are not that motivated. That is> why I pointed out to Bill, we really don't want to see an effective> attack on Russian soil. That might be what it takes to turn them into> an army out for revenge. Right now I doubt Putin is doing a very good> job in selling this war to his citizens. On the bright side, the big > money in Russia may be the ones to stop this and knock a little shine> off of Putin. I still bet he keeps the Donbass area.> .I think the Russian civilian population is experiencing a similarenlightenment that the US civilian population experienced startingin the mid 60's with the war in Vietnam.Post
>Soviet
>> >>>>>>Russia
>> >>>>>>>>>is
>> >>>>>>>>>>> not the same as it was prior to 1991.Capitalism has flourished. The Internet exists. Social Mediais available. A new generation of Russians exist with accessto information about the world beyond their>>> borders.Putin is a hold over from the Soviet days. He doesn't use theInternet. He doesn't even live in the Kremlin ... and hasn'tfor years. He lives in a "palace" built for him back in 2005in a very controversial "business" arrangement with a wealthyRussian ally. He's out of touch and not living in the worldof 2022.Ultimately I think the Russian people will be the cause ofhis downfall. I also think that eventually the same may betrue in China.If you keep your citizens like mushrooms ... living in darkcaves and feeding them bullshit you can maintain power. Butonce the sunlight starts to illuminate what is around them,the revolts begin.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com>>>>>> Someone should start a go fund me to finance Putins removal>>
>> >Some
>> >>>>>>>>>oligarch
>> >>>>>>>>>>> in CA offered $1M. Hell, I'd contribute.> > ===> > Based on recent photos of Putin's very long conference room table, I'd say that he is practicing extreme social distancing.I've heard that he rarely leaves the "palace" that he lives in and is pretty much isolated from contact with anyone.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder what air defenses his palace has?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ===
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We repeatedly tried to bomb Saddam Hussein's so called palaces and failed to get him. 5 minutes after any attempt to bomb Putin would see an armada of nuclear warheads heading for the US. It would be a declaration of war, a war with no winners. Even if only 5% of Russian nukes actually made it, the devastation would be unimaginable. Putin will have to be removed from within.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wayne, unless the Russian people (or a covert action by us) take Putin
>> >>>>>>>>>>> out, I have a sinking feeling that we are heading for a nuclear exchange
>> >>>>>>>>>>> anyway. It might be the best option to counter invade Ukraine with
>> >>>>>>>>>>> overwhelming USA and NATO forces *now* and demoralize the Russian troops
>> >>>>>>>>>>> who are there ... seemingly ill -led.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> If Putin's objective to reestablish the Russian Empire sanctions aren't
>> >>>>>>>>>>> going to stop him. If the sanctions become too onerous to the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Russian economy he could very well resort to a nuclear strike anyway,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> like a cornered snake.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am starting to get the feeling that the West is attempting to fight
>> >>>>>>>>>>> this action by Putin based on Western principled idealism, thinking
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that any sane person would recognize the hurt it brings on citizens.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't think Putin shares "principled idealism" or even understands
>> >>>>>>>>>>> what it means.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we should publicly stay back. We can support Ukraine quietly
>> >>>>>>>>>> and that makes the Russians look worse as the rag tag Ukraine army
>> >>>>>>>>>> hurts them. It was a losing war in Afghanistan that lead to toppling
>> >>>>>>>>>> Gorbachev. That was supposed to be easy too.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Putin isn't Gorbachev. Gorbachev was an enlightened leader who
>> >>>>>>>>>genuinely wanted to change the Soviet Union culture and global
>> >>>>>>>>>relations. It wasn't just due to Afghanistan.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Putin is more like Stalin. And Hitler.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>Nobody is like Stalin and Hitler. That is hyperbole.
>> >>>>>>>>Putin is just the color of the month and this stupid war of his might
>> >>>>>>>>lead to the big money in Russia pushing him out, maybe even whacking
>> >>>>>>>>him.
>> >>>>>>>>He even seems to be figuring out taking all of Ukraine isn't going to
>> >>>>>>>>happen without a bigger war than he planned.
>> >>>>>>>>It looks like he is giving the west a bail out option, pretty much
>> >>>>>>>>what I predicted. If we let him keep Crimea, that he already has, let
>> >>>>>>>>Donbass be independent and keep Ukraine out of NATO he will pull back.
>> >>>>>>>>It might be as good as we will get without direct intervention and
>> >>>>>>>>that will most likely turn out worse anyway.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>I honestly don't remember your prediction. This would be the most
>> >>>>>>>recent in a long line of predictions you say you've made, but I sure
>> >>>>>>>don't recall it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Perhaps I'm just getting old!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>On 2/27 in this thread I said
>> >>>>>>"Time will tell but my guess is the Russians will pull back to the
>> >>>>>>Dombass and that will be the end of it, unless somebody does something
>> >>>>>>stupid".
>> >>>>>>There were other similar things going all the way back to when this
>> >>>>>>was just a threat.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Well, partially!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Putin laid out 4 conditions.
>> >>>>1. Let Donbass be independent of Ukraine,
>> >>>>2. Let him keep Crimea as if that was ever even a question,
>> >>>>3. Ukraine can't be in NATO
>> >>>>4. Everyone stop shooting.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>The only real issue in all of that was Donbass and I predict if he
>> >>>>gets that, the war is over.
>> >>>>I don't think NATO even wanted Ukraine before this and they sure won't
>> >>>>kick that tar baby now. Crimea was a done deal during the Obama
>> >>>>administration.
>> >>>>It is just sad so many people had to die for something this stupid.
>> >>>>Five years ago in a poll, the east wanted to be separate from Ukraine
>> >>>>and more closely aligned with Russia ... but still independent.
>> >>>>They speak Russian, they are mostly of the Russian Orthodox religion
>> >>>>and they are culturally of Russian heritage.
>> >>>
>> >>>You forgot 'demilitarization and neutral status', or did I miss it in
>> >>>your predictions?
>> >>
>> >>I thought demilitarization and neutral status was a plus. It would be
>> >>an effective buffer between Russia and Ukraine and that is good for
>> >>everyone.
>> >
>> >Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?
>> Those people were polled and over 70% said they wanted to be more
>> aligned to the Russians. They are Russian Orthodox, speak Russian and
>> have a cultural connection with Russia. Why is that any of our
>> business?
>> If we don't watch what we do, this could be WWIII and that won't be
>> good for anyone. It will be nuclear.
>
>
>Y'all have a short memory, Johnny.
>What happened when your kinfolk tried to seperate from the rest of 'merica? No one let them go just because the majority of southerners wanted to.

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 02:12:48 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>>
>>Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?
>
>Those people were polled and over 70% said they wanted to be more
>aligned to the Russians. They are Russian Orthodox, speak Russian and
>have a cultural connection with Russia. Why is that any of our
>business?
>If we don't watch what we do, this could be WWIII and that won't be
>good for anyone. It will be nuclear.

I would surely like to see that poll.

This poll, for which I have a link, would tend to contradict your
statement:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/18/ukrainians-support-for-joining-nato-hits-record-high-poll-a76442

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:10:02 -0700 (PDT), True North
<princecraft49@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >
>> >Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?
>> Those people were polled and over 70% said they wanted to be more
>> aligned to the Russians. They are Russian Orthodox, speak Russian and
>> have a cultural connection with Russia. Why is that any of our
>> business?
>> If we don't watch what we do, this could be WWIII and that won't be
>> good for anyone. It will be nuclear.
>
>
>Y'all have a short memory, Johnny.
>What happened when your kinfolk tried to seperate from the rest of 'merica? No one let them go just because the majority of southerners wanted to.

Let's wait and see if he can come up with a poll which supports his
statement.

Donnie, I grew up on a farm in Minnesota.

What a fucking dumbass you are.

On Wednesday, 16 March 2022 at 15:01:14 UTC-3, John H wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:10:02 -0700 (PDT), True North
> <prince...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> >
> >> >Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?
> >> Those people were polled and over 70% said they wanted to be more
> >> aligned to the Russians. They are Russian Orthodox, speak Russian and
> >> have a cultural connection with Russia. Why is that any of our
> >> business?
> >> If we don't watch what we do, this could be WWIII and that won't be
> >> good for anyone. It will be nuclear.
> >
> >
> >Y'all have a short memory, Johnny.
> >What happened when your kinfolk tried to seperate from the rest of 'merica? No one let them go just because the majority of southerners wanted to.
> Let's wait and see if he can come up with a poll which supports his
> statement.
>
> Donnie, I grew up on a farm in Minnesota.
>
> What a fucking dumbass you are.

Speaking about "dumbass"
Anyone with a lick of common sense would know that Greg was talking about that far eastern Dombas region.
Don't y'all have a ladder laying around that you can climb?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:59:16 -0400, John H <jherring@cox.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 02:12:48 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>>Especially the Ukrainians who become Putins vassels, eh?
>>
>>Those people were polled and over 70% said they wanted to be more
>>aligned to the Russians. They are Russian Orthodox, speak Russian and
>>have a cultural connection with Russia. Why is that any of our
>>business?
>>If we don't watch what we do, this could be WWIII and that won't be
>>good for anyone. It will be nuclear.
>
>I would surely like to see that poll.
>
>This poll, for which I have a link, would tend to contradict your
>statement:
>
>https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/18/ukrainians-support-for-joining-nato-hits-record-high-poll-a76442

You are confusing Western, catholic Ukraine with Eastern Russian
Orthodox Ukraine. I have no doubt the Western Ukrainians have no
interest in being associated with Russia. The East really just wants
to be independent of Kiev and that is all Putin asked for.

There have been a few polls with mixed results but it is clear the
Donbass want to secede from Kiev.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

2014 poll
"Do you support the declaration of state independence of the Luhansk
People's Republic?"?

Yes 96.2%
No 3.8%

"Are you for maintaining your territorial community within Ukraine and
reunification with the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast"? (unifying The Donbass)
Yes 69.1%
No Against reunification and against separatism 27.2%
No against separatism 3.7%