On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>
>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used by sick
>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded New
>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>> much more ecological!
>>> ;-)
>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by wearing a
>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public transport,
>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>> +1
>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>
>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>
>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful. This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>
> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>
> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
> assets. Making them richer?
>

Economists have made the argument that selective
restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
to lower classes and small business to large businesses.

A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
generally true. And not a national policy but rather
governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>
>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used by sick
>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded New
>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>> much more ecological!
>>>> ;-)
>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by wearing a
>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public transport,
>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>> +1
>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>
>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>
>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful. This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>
>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>
>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>> assets. Making them richer?
>>
>
>Economists have made the argument that selective
>restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>
>A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.

I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
about small and large industries.

Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
2020 - $67,321.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/

I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
imports from China.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used by sick
>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded New
>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by wearing a
>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public transport,
>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>
>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>
>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful. This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>
>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>
>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>
>>
>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>
>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>
> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
> about small and large industries.
>
> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
> 2020 - $67,321.
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>
> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
> imports from China.
>

It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues
affected generally lower income workers (and owners)
adversely while enriching high income employees
(work-from-home, shareholders of large entities) besides the
corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the
phenomenon.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
>>>>>>>>> by sick
>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
>>>>>> New
>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
>>>>>>>> wearing a
>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
>>>>>> transport,
>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful.
>>>>> This simply shows what  liars they are. They are willing to slice
>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>>
>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>>
>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>>
>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>>
>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
>> about small and large industries.
>>
>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
>> 2020 - $67,321.
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>>
>>
>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>> Or bicycles... I read that  86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
>> imports from China.
>>
>
> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.

Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.

But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
from the poor to the rich."

IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/19/2022 10:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi
>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>>>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*.
>>>>>>>>>> Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect
>>>>>>>>>> handkerchiefs used by sick
>>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag
>>>>>>>>>> and all.)
>>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it
>>>>>>> basically flooded New
>>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded
>>>>>>> plastic masks is so
>>>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been
>>>>>>>>> satisfiable by wearing a
>>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone
>>>>>>> public transport,
>>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust
>>>>>>> mask. That's why I
>>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp
>>>>>>> manager.
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of
>>>>>>>> tee shirt
>>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT
>>>>>>> sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling
>>>>>>> broken plastic
>>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over
>>>>>> the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has
>>>>>> been entirely from the poor to the rich. The middle
>>>>>> class is so rapidly dissolving into the lower class
>>>>>> that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf and
>>>>>> Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have
>>>>>> told us that they were attempting to end the rein of
>>>>>> the rich and powerful. This simply shows what liars
>>>>>> they are. They are willing to slice their own throats
>>>>>> rather than admit that I was right about all of this
>>>>>> from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>>>
>>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being
>>>>> transferred from the
>>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how
>>>>> this is done as
>>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and
>>>>> give them to
>>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS
>>>>> these nonexempt
>>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>>>
>>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich"
>>> assuming that
>>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you
>>> are talking
>>> about small and large industries.
>>>
>>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990
>>> was $54,621. In
>>> 2020 - $67,321.
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>>>
>>>
>>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign
>>> countries has a
>>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard
>>> Johnson or the
>>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the
>>> new San
>>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel
>>> from abroad --
>>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>>> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in
>>> the US are
>>> imports from China.
>>>
>>
>> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues
>> affected generally lower income workers (and owners)
>> adversely while enriching high income employees
>> (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities) besides
>> the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from
>> many diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the
>> phenomenon.
>
> Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development
> of standard shipping containers are a large and largely
> unrecognized contributor, by enabling super low cost
> shipping from cheap labor markets.
>
> But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party
> have lorded over the largest transfer of wealth in history
> and it has been entirely from the poor to the rich."
>
> IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and
> nothing else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!
>

Right. The onus is not on WHO, CDC etc but rather on
Governors and lesser martinets who needlessly destroyed
lives, incomes, businesses and our yet disrupted complex
networks for damned near every product and service. The
favored few who were not shut down did very very well.

A similar effect may be seen in FCC spectrum licensing
uncannily slanted to a few very large entities time after
time for decades.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
> > I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> > that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> > being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.

What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”

>> She had
> > a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> > the election, they became "Biden vaccines",

I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes those terms specifically?

> > and every Democrat jumped on
> > the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> > force everyone everywhere to take it.

Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited until july.

> >
> > The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> > during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> > knowledge or wisdom.

that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/

> It _was_ due to an increase in knowledge, mostly in response to a
> tremendous increase in available data! At the beginning of the pandemic
> the mode of transmission was not even certain! Remember fomite or
> surface transmission worries?
>
> The scientific community has been VERY hard at work, trying to
> understand a new virus with exceptional transmissibility. As facts were
> learned, strategies changed. This happens - or should happen - in every
> human endeavor.
> >
> >> Which does not mean there are not exceptions - dedicated,
> >> enthusiastic, even bombastic exceptions who treasure their ignorance.
> >>
> >> I've never been a fan of ignorance.
> >
> > Yet you're constantly deriding the modern safety culture when it comes
> > to hard hats, or bicycling, or anything trivial. When it comes to this
> > massive and hugely damaging expansion of safety culture you somehow
> > become blind.
> I'm very much data driven, and I think I'm noted for posting relevant
> data. Admittedly, that doesn't cut much ice with people who are
> politically driven.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:48:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>>>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
>>>>>>>>>> by sick
>>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
>>>>>>> New
>>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
>>>>>>>>> wearing a
>>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
>>>>>>> transport,
>>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
>>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
>>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
>>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
>>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
>>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful.
>>>>>> This simply shows what  liars they are. They are willing to slice
>>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
>>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>>>
>>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>>>
>>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
>>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
>>> about small and large industries.
>>>
>>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
>>> 2020 - $67,321.
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>>>
>>>
>>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
>>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
>>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
>>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
>>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>>> Or bicycles... I read that  86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
>>> imports from China.
>>>
>>
>> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
>> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
>> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
>> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
>> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.
>
>Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
>shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
>enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.
>
>But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
>over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
>from the poor to the rich."
>
>IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
>else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!

But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
going Up. Mustn't it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:43:15 PM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >
> > > I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> > > that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> > > being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”
> >> She had
> > > a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> > > the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes those terms specifically?

Trump has tried mightily to take all of the credit for the vaccine after it came out and millions and millions of people used it. Successfully. His problem is he is preaching to the anti vaccine crowd. It is somewhat similar to a food company executive bragging at the KKK meeting about how his company is making and giving lots of food to the poor and hungry children in the ghetto.

As for naming the vaccine. Probably the only vaccine specifically given a name is the Salk vaccine. For polio. Named after its inventor Jonas Salk in 1950. The Covid vaccines are just called the Pfizer or Moderna or Johnson & Johnson or AstraZeneca vaccine. Or the Russian or Chinese vaccines.

> > > and every Democrat jumped on
> > > the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> > > force everyone everywhere to take it.
> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited until july.
> > >
> > > The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> > > during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> > > knowledge or wisdom.
> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>
> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> > It _was_ due to an increase in knowledge, mostly in response to a
> > tremendous increase in available data! At the beginning of the pandemic
> > the mode of transmission was not even certain! Remember fomite or
> > surface transmission worries?
> >
> > The scientific community has been VERY hard at work, trying to
> > understand a new virus with exceptional transmissibility. As facts were
> > learned, strategies changed. This happens - or should happen - in every
> > human endeavor.
> > >
> > >> Which does not mean there are not exceptions - dedicated,
> > >> enthusiastic, even bombastic exceptions who treasure their ignorance..
> > >>
> > >> I've never been a fan of ignorance.
> > >
> > > Yet you're constantly deriding the modern safety culture when it comes
> > > to hard hats, or bicycling, or anything trivial. When it comes to this
> > > massive and hugely damaging expansion of safety culture you somehow
> > > become blind.
> > I'm very much data driven, and I think I'm noted for posting relevant
> > data. Admittedly, that doesn't cut much ice with people who are
> > politically driven.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 20 May 2022 07:47:07 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
(chomp)
>But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
>was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
>And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
>going Up. Mustn't it?

"How the Census Bureau Measures Poverty"
<https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidance/poverty-measures.html>
"The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and
does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public
housing, Medicaid, and food stamps)."
"The official poverty thresholds do not vary geographically, but they
are updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index (CPI-U)."

However, there are indications that the official calculations might be
flawed. For example, California is allegedly the #1 most impoverished
state.

"California Ranks No. 1 in National Poverty Per New Figures from U.S.
Census Bureau"
<https://www.unitedwayla.org/en/news-resources/blog/california-ranks-no-1-national-poverty-new-figures-us-census-bureau/>
'California's housing costs are driving its No. 1 poverty ranking"
<https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2017/09/12/75575/california-s-housing-costs-are-driving-its-no-1-po/>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/19/2022 7:47 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:48:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>>>>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
>>>>>>>>>>> by sick
>>>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
>>>>>>>> New
>>>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
>>>>>>>>>> wearing a
>>>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
>>>>>>>> transport,
>>>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
>>>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
>>>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
>>>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
>>>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
>>>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful.
>>>>>>> This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice
>>>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
>>>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>>>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>>>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>>>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>>>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>>>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>>>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>>>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>>>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>>>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>>>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>>>>
>>>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
>>>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
>>>> about small and large industries.
>>>>
>>>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
>>>> 2020 - $67,321.
>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
>>>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
>>>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
>>>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
>>>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>>>> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
>>>> imports from China.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
>>> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
>>> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
>>> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
>>> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.
>>
>> Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
>> shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
>> enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.
>>
>> But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
>> over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
>>from the poor to the rich."
>>
>> IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
>> else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!
>
> But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
> was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
> And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
> going Up. Mustn't it?
>

The Official Poverty Limit is quite a comfortable living for
many (I speak from experience). Besides which, the numbers
change regularly depending on political advantage, real or
perceived.

Aggregate numbers for the nation as a whole are particularly
misleading as a given income level in Hawaii, DC, NY etc may
indicate real hardship, but the same income in MS, KS, OK
etc is 'living large'.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240947/cost-of-living-index-usa-by-state/

To make any statement based on the number or proportion of
USAians 'at or below poverty line' is meaningless.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:18:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 7:47 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:48:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>>>>>> <elizabethannie.47@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
>>>>>>>>>>>> by sick
>>>>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
>>>>>>>>> New
>>>>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>>>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
>>>>>>>>>>> wearing a
>>>>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
>>>>>>>>> transport,
>>>>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
>>>>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
>>>>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
>>>>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
>>>>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
>>>>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful.
>>>>>>>> This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice
>>>>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
>>>>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>>>>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>>>>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>>>>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>>>>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>>>>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>>>>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>>>>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>>>>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>>>>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>>>>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
>>>>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
>>>>> about small and large industries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
>>>>> 2020 - $67,321.
>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
>>>>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
>>>>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
>>>>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
>>>>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>>>>> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
>>>>> imports from China.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
>>>> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
>>>> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
>>>> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
>>>> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.
>>>
>>> Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
>>> shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
>>> enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.
>>>
>>> But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
>>> over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
>>>from the poor to the rich."
>>>
>>> IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
>>> else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!
>>
>> But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
>> was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
>> And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
>> going Up. Mustn't it?
>>
>
>The Official Poverty Limit is quite a comfortable living for
>many (I speak from experience). Besides which, the numbers
>change regularly depending on political advantage, real or
>perceived.
>
>Aggregate numbers for the nation as a whole are particularly
>misleading as a given income level in Hawaii, DC, NY etc may
>indicate real hardship, but the same income in MS, KS, OK
>etc is 'living large'.
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/1240947/cost-of-living-index-usa-by-state/
>
>To make any statement based on the number or proportion of
>USAians 'at or below poverty line' is meaningless.

True, but if you want to speak on a National Level then how else then
to average the income of all the population.

You can, of course use specifics... people in East Overshoe Georgia
get by on $100/monthly... in a largely farming community. While people
in, oh for example, Washington D.C.. require $100 a day to live.
Which makes it a bit difficult to speak of "The U.S.A."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 7:47:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:48:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
> >>>>> <elizabet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> >>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
> >>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
> >>>>>>>>>> by sick
> >>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
> >>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
> >>>>>>> New
> >>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
> >>>>>>> much more ecological!
> >>>>>>> ;-)
> >>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
> >>>>>>>>> wearing a
> >>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
> >>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
> >>>>>>> transport,
> >>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
> >>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
> >>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
> >>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
> >>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
> >>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
> >>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
> >>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
> >>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
> >>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
> >>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
> >>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
> >>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
> >>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful..
> >>>>>> This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice
> >>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
> >>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
> >>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
> >>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
> >>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
> >>>>> assets. Making them richer?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
> >>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
> >>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
> >>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
> >>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
> >>>>
> >>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
> >>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
> >>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
> >>>
> >>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
> >>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
> >>> about small and large industries.
> >>>
> >>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
> >>> 2020 - $67,321.
> >>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
> >>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
> >>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
> >>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
> >>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
> >>> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
> >>> imports from China.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
> >> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
> >> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
> >> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
> >> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.
> >
> >Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
> >shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
> >enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.
> >
> >But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
> >over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
> >from the poor to the rich."
> >
> >IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
> >else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!
> But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
> was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
> And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
> going Up. Mustn't it?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

No. How the wealth and income is distributed contributes greatly to poverty rates. Everyone makes within 20% of each other, then likely zero poverty.. But if a few get 80% of everything, and the rest fight for the small remainder, then likely a lot of poverty. It is very easy to make realistic scenarios where poverty goes up or down and wealth goes up or down. Pick whichever combination you want, and I can easily make a scenario to fit.

On Thu, 19 May 2022 19:04:32 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 7:47:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:48:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>> >>>>> <elizabet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>> >>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>> >>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
>> >>>>>>>>>> by sick
>> >>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>> >>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
>> >>>>>>> New
>> >>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>> >>>>>>> much more ecological!
>> >>>>>>> ;-)
>> >>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
>> >>>>>>>>> wearing a
>> >>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>> >>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
>> >>>>>>> transport,
>> >>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>> >>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>> >>>>>>>> +1
>> >>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>> >>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>> >>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>> >>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>> >>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>> >>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>> >>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
>> >>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
>> >>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
>> >>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
>> >>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
>> >>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful.
>> >>>>>> This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice
>> >>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
>> >>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>> >>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>> >>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>> >>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>> >>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>> >>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>> >>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>> >>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>> >>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>> >>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>> >>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>> >>>
>> >>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
>> >>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
>> >>> about small and large industries.
>> >>>
>> >>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
>> >>> 2020 - $67,321.
>> >>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
>> >>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
>> >>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
>> >>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
>> >>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>> >>> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
>> >>> imports from China.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
>> >> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
>> >> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
>> >> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
>> >> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.
>> >
>> >Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
>> >shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
>> >enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.
>> >
>> >But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
>> >over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
>> >from the poor to the rich."
>> >
>> >IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
>> >else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!
>> But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
>> was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
>> And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
>> going Up. Mustn't it?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>No. How the wealth and income is distributed contributes greatly to poverty rates. Everyone makes within 20% of each other, then likely zero poverty. But if a few get 80% of everything, and the rest fight for the small remainder, then likely a lot of poverty. It is very easy to make realistic scenarios where poverty goes up or down and wealth goes up or down. Pick whichever combination you want, and I can easily make a scenario to fit.

Sure, as a good friend in the financial survey business once said,
"tell me what you want to prove and I'll make a survey to prove it".

But again it is a matter of semantics, isn't it. What is "Poor"?
I read
https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years

Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. B
Nearly three-quarters have a car or truck; 31 percent have two or more
cars or trucks.
Nearly two-thirds have cable or satellite television.
and
Ninety-six percent of poor parents stated that their children were
never hungry at any time during the year because they could not afford
food.
Some 82 percent of poor adults reported that they were never hungry at
any time in the prior year due to lack of money to buy food.
and
Forty-two percent of all poor households actually own their own homes.
The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census
Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage,
and a porch or patio.
More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
he average poor American has more living space than the average
individual living in Sweden, France, Germany, or the United Kingdom.
By his own report, the average poor person had sufficient funds to
meet all essential needs and was able to obtain medical care for his
family throughout the year whenever needed.
--
Cheers,

On 5/19/2022 9:04 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 7:47:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 11:48:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 2:01 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 00:04:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:08 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 07:12:20 -0700 (PDT), Ann Kunich
>>>>>>> <elizabet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:13:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/17/2022 8:59 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ordinary pleated mask is a *handkerchief*. Only handkerchief
>>>>>>>>>>>> precautions apply. (But we used to collect handkerchiefs used
>>>>>>>>>>>> by sick
>>>>>>>>>>>> people people in a paper bag, and burn them bag and all.)
>>>>>>>>> See, that was so terribly climate-destructive it basically flooded
>>>>>>>>> New
>>>>>>>>> Orleans! Letting birds build nests from discarded plastic masks is so
>>>>>>>>> much more ecological!
>>>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know all US mask mandates have been satisfiable by
>>>>>>>>>>> wearing a
>>>>>>>>>>> handkerchief, train-robber style.
>>>>>>>>> Over here, you were refused food purchases, let alone public
>>>>>>>>> transport,
>>>>>>>>> for wearing a medical mask instead of an N95 dust mask. That's why I
>>>>>>>>> call WEF-fanboy Scharfie a willing starvation camp manager.
>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>> All about power and virtue signalling. A chunk of tee shirt
>>>>>>>>>> with ear loops isn't slowing down any aerosol virus.
>>>>>>>>> I suspect a once washed, Andre-old stock DDT sprinkled, India-colored
>>>>>>>>> cotton t-shirt to be practically safer than inhaling broken plastic
>>>>>>>>> fibres from wearing N95 masks.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8441111/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More goodies at <https://t.me/s/CoronvirusPlushie>
>>>>>>>>> <https://dailysceptic.org/2022/05/02/the-foegen-effect-why-face-masks-increase-the-death-rate-of-covid-19/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded over the largest
>>>>>>>> transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely from the
>>>>>>>> poor to the rich. The middle class is so rapidly dissolving into
>>>>>>>> the lower class that you would think that Frank, Russell, Scharf
>>>>>>>> and Flunky would be on the Republican side since they have told us
>>>>>>>> that they were attempting to end the rein of the rich and powerful.
>>>>>>>> This simply shows what liars they are. They are willing to slice
>>>>>>>> their own throats rather than admit that I was right about all of
>>>>>>>> this from the start. That is proof positive of mental illness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An interesting statement. But HOW is wealth being transferred from the
>>>>>>> poor to the rich? I would really be interested in how this is done as
>>>>>>> the "Poor" are usually designated as those without assets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you seize what appear to be non-existent assets and give them to
>>>>>>> people with assets who now have their own assets PLUS these nonexempt
>>>>>>> assets. Making them richer?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Economists have made the argument that selective
>>>>>> restrictions and business closures (local hardware closed,
>>>>>> XMart open; diner closed, McBurger open, etc) resulted in
>>>>>> the largest one year transfer of wealth in history from mid
>>>>>> to lower classes and small business to large businesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A lot of this depends on definition of terms but it's
>>>>>> generally true. And not a national policy but rather
>>>>>> governors, mayors and other fanatic martinets.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was specifically referring to "the poor to the rich" assuming that
>>>>> the writer meant individual poor and rich. I believe you are talking
>>>>> about small and large industries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example: Median household (in the U.S.) income in 1990 was $54,621. In
>>>>> 2020 - $67,321.
>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that relocation of industries to foreign countries has a
>>>>> much larger effect on the U.S. economy then Howard Johnson or the
>>>>> Golden Arches. I remember reading that in building the new San
>>>>> Francisco bridges it was necessary to import the steel from abroad --
>>>>> as no U.S. company could furnish it within the schedule --.
>>>>> Or bicycles... I read that 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are
>>>>> imports from China.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's larger. The gargantuan and sudden shift of revenues affected
>>>> generally lower income workers (and owners) adversely while enriching
>>>> high income employees (work-from-home, shareholders of large entities)
>>>> besides the corporations themselves. The follow on effects from many
>>>> diverse communities to a few large cities adds to the phenomenon.
>>>
>>> Yes, the changes are complex. I've read that the development of standard
>>> shipping containers are a large and largely unrecognized contributor, by
>>> enabling super low cost shipping from cheap labor markets.
>>>
>>> But Tom's claim was "The WHO, CDC and the Democrat Party have lorded
>>> over the largest transfer of wealth in history and it has been entirely
>> >from the poor to the rich."
>>>
>>> IOW, in Tom's mind it's simply the work of his "enemies" and nothing
>>> else is important. Such a simplistic mindset!
>> But, but, but... I read that the poverty level, in the U.S. in 1990
>> was 13.5% and in 2020 it was 11.4% \.
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/200463/us-poverty-rate-since-1990/
>> And... if the poverty level is going Down then the wealth must be
>> going Up. Mustn't it?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> No. How the wealth and income is distributed contributes greatly to poverty rates. Everyone makes within 20% of each other, then likely zero poverty. But if a few get 80% of everything, and the rest fight for the small remainder, then likely a lot of poverty. It is very easy to make realistic scenarios where poverty goes up or down and wealth goes up or down. Pick whichever combination you want, and I can easily make a scenario to fit.
>

Except that trying to make people 'equal' by cutting the
heads off the tall ones never works out. Punishing people
for working and saving doesn't add to the character of those
with less nor inspire them to productive activity.

While no one begrudges crippled children public aid, the
expanding definitions of 'disadvantaged' are beyond
rationality with no end in sight. As a scientist customer
frequently notes, "Cancer is like poverty. More people live
off them than die from them."

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:

>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>
>> > I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>> > that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>> > being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>
> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”

I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
the rest of us to "take it".

> >> She had
>> > a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>> > the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>
> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> those terms specifically?

Those are my terms. I think they fit.

You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html

It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.

@WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:

When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
no vaccine available.

Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.

>> > and every Democrat jumped on
>> > the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>> > force everyone everywhere to take it.
>
> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> until july.

You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
will not take a booster.

>> > The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>> > during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>> > knowledge or wisdom.
>
> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>
> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/

2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
wasn't scary enough.

I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
we got here:

https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/

Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
for eradicating smallpox:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf

I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.

For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
approach to covid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU

The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
they don't seem to have any regrets.

On 5/20/2022 9:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:04 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> How the wealth and income is distributed contributes greatly to
>> poverty rates.  Everyone makes within 20% of each other, then likely
>> zero poverty.  But if a few get 80% of everything, and the rest fight
>> for the small remainder, then likely a lot of poverty.  It is very
>> easy to make realistic scenarios where poverty goes up or down and
>> wealth goes up or down.  Pick whichever combination you want, and I
>> can easily make a scenario to fit.
>>
>
> Except that trying to make people 'equal' by cutting the heads off the
> tall ones never works out.  Punishing people for working and saving
> doesn't add to the character of those with less nor inspire them to
> productive activity.
>
> While no one begrudges crippled children public aid, the expanding
> definitions of 'disadvantaged' are beyond rationality with no end in
> sight.

Well, I'm sure there have been some people who have begrudged aid to
crippled children - just as there are people who would be incensed at
your use of the word "crippled." Normal curves always have tails.

But I strongly dispute what I believe to be your first point,
mischaracterized as "cutting the the heads off the tall ones." From
everything I've seen, measures that reduce income and wealth inequality
tend to lead to more stable societies, more general contentment, less
crime and civil unrest, more pleasant surroundings and living experiences.

Someone has to pay for civilization. That money comes from taxes. I see
no logic in taxing the same percentage of income from a widow with kids
who works in a WalMart and a CEO with three mansions, a yacht and a
personal helicopter.

Many other countries agree with me, and thus disagree with current U.S.
policy. Those countries seem to be doing better than the U.S. by most
metrics.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>
>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”
>
> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> the rest of us to "take it".
>
>> >> She had
>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>
>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>> those terms specifically?
>
> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>
> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>
> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>
> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>
> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> no vaccine available.
>
> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>
>
>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>
>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>> until july.
>
> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> will not take a booster.
>
>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>
>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>
>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>
> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> wasn't scary enough.
>
> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> we got here:
>
> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>
> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> for eradicating smallpox:
>
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>
> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>
> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> approach to covid:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>
> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>

Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
unknowable now.

I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/

and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:36:54 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>
> >> > I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >> > that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >> > being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >
> > What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> > professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> > take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> > Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it..”
> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> the rest of us to "take it".
> > >> She had
> >> > a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >> > the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >
> > I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> > "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> > those terms specifically?
> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>
> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>
> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>
> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>
> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> no vaccine available.
>
> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >> > and every Democrat jumped on
> >> > the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >> > force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >
> > Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> > until july.
> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> will not take a booster.
> >> > The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >> > during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >> > knowledge or wisdom.
> >
> > that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> > implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> > going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> > U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> > CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> > pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> > trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> > since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >
> > https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> wasn't scary enough.
>
> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> we got here:
>
> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>
> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> for eradicating smallpox:
>
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>
> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>
> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> approach to covid:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>
> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> they don't seem to have any regrets.

But they suffered a whole lot of deaths from Covid. I did a search on Covid amongst the Amish/Mennonite. Lot of stories came up. Amish more or less ignored it and continued their regular life. No vaccines, no going to the hospital, no testing for Covid. So its kind of like China or Russia on Covid. No good information to base anything off of. One story I found says this:

https://news.wosu.org/coronavirus/2021-10-18/vaccinations-reported-covid-cases-remain-low-in-ohios-amish-country
"While Holmes County’s case rate is lower than the state average, its hospitalization rate is slightly above the state average, and its death rate is well above the state’s average."

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/no-the-amish-arent-free-from-covid-and-other-diseases/
“COVID has had a major effect on these communities, and even now, the counties with the greatest proportion of Amish (e.g. Lancaster County) have per-capita COVID-19 rates that are well above the (US) national average..”
"She told AAP FactCheck in an email that it was difficult to get clear data on COVID-19 vaccination or hospitalization rates among the community because information on religious affiliation was not collected."
“The large number of excess deaths among the Amish and Mennonite community is concerning, as it indicates not only the presence, but the impact of COVID-19 on this community,” the paper concluded."

There were other stories about the Amish achieving herd immunity due to everyone getting Covid. And recovering I guess. But the scientists say the immunity from being infected wears off fairly quickly, unlike with immunization. So I would say the Amish did no better than the USA overall for Covid.. Maybe worse. And the USA was the worst country in the whole world for fighting Covid. So being equal to the worst is not a plan I would advocate.

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>
> >> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >
> > I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> > On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> > the rest of us to "take it".
> >
> >> >> She had
> >>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>
> >> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >> those terms specifically?
> >
> > Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >
> > You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >
> > It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> > after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> > Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> > election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >
> > @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >
> > When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> > no vaccine available.
> >
> > Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >
> >
> >>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>
> >> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >> until july.
> >
> > You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> > nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> > but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> > will not take a booster.
> >
> >>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>
> >> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>
> >> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >
> > 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> > The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> > saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> > wasn't scary enough.
> >
> > I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> > we got here:
> >
> > https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >
> > Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> > for eradicating smallpox:
> >
> > http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >
> > I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >
> > For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> > approach to covid:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >
> > The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> > they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >
> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> unknowable now.
>
> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>
> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>
> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again.. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.

On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>
>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>
>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>
>>>>>> She had
>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>
>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>
>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>
>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>
>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>
>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>
>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>> no vaccine available.
>>>
>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>
>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>> until july.
>>>
>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>> will not take a booster.
>>>
>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>
>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>
>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>
>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>> we got here:
>>>
>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>
>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>
>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>
>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>
>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>> approach to covid:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>
>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>
>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>> unknowable now.
>>
>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>
>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>
>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases

>
> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>

Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.

I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
unhelpful.

I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
written by at least some of the same people.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> > "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> >>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>> >>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>> >>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>> >>
>> >> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>> >> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>> >> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>> >> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>> >
>> > I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>> > On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>> > the rest of us to "take it".
>> >
>> >> >> She had
>> >>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>> >>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>> >>
>> >> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>> >> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>> >> those terms specifically?
>> >
>> > Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>> >
>> > You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>> >
>> > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>> >
>> > It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>> > after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>> > Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>> > election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>> >
>> > @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>> >
>> > When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>> > no vaccine available.
>> >
>> > Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>> >
>> >
>> >>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>> >>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>> >>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>> >>
>> >> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>> >> until july.
>> >
>> > You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>> > nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>> > but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>> > will not take a booster.
>> >
>> >>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>> >>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>> >>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>> >>
>> >> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>> >> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>> >> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>> >> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>> >> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>> >> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>> >> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>> >> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>> >
>> > 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>> > The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>> > saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>> > wasn't scary enough.
>> >
>> > I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>> > we got here:
>> >
>> > https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>> >
>> > Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>> > for eradicating smallpox:
>> >
>> > http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>> >
>> > I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>> >
>> > For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>> > approach to covid:
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>> >
>> > The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>> > they don't seem to have any regrets.
>> >
>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>> unknowable now.
>>
>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>
>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>
>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay
> home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good
> to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube
> and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many
> people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine

Sure they did, here's Rochelle Walensky:

https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-director-data-vaccinated-people-do-not-carry-covid-19-2021-3

During an MSNBC interview with Rachel Maddow on Monday, Walensky said:
"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not
carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical
trials, but it's also in real-world data."

> just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial.
> Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90
> mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit
> you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the
> vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the
> vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not
> hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground
> and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.

One issue is that immunity from vaccination is quite short lived and
does not start immediately, you have to time your exposure. The other
is that side effects, some pretty bad, like myocarditis, seem to be
pretty common. For the r.b.t demographic vaccines probably make sense.
For a healthy 40 year old, probably not. For an 11 year old, no f*ing way.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>
>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>
>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>
>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>
>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>
>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>
>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>
>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>
>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>
>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>
>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>> until july.
>>>>
>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>
>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>
>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>
>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>> we got here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>
>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>
>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>
>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>
>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>
>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>
>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>> unknowable now.
>>>
>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>
>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>
>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>
>>
>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You
>> stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are
>> good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing
>> tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not
>> many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The
>> vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat
>> immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a
>> fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a
>> bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged.
>> Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is
>> better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head.
>> And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the
>> pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes
>> over your head and misses you.
>>
>
> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of the term
> 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot doesn't prevent
> reinfection or much more significantly, doesn't keep that person from
> spreading it to others.
>
> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth infections is
> a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not zero. Continued contraction
> and continuing contagion are unhelpful.
>
> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and CDC under
> Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money, time and effort were
> pissed away on vaccine research for 35 years or so with no
> result. Early advocates of traditional medical method-
> develop/discover therapeutics to prevent death and improve health of
> the infected- were shouted down, hounded, belittled. Yet here we are
> today where those evil pharmaceutical organizations supply many and
> various effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> written by at least some of the same people.

Nowadays therapeutics are only considered if they're patentable.
Paxlovid and, especially, Molnupiravir are *nightmares*. Ivermectin and
hydroxychloroquine might very well not work, but they're at least fairly safe.

"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:

> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:36:54 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>> >> > that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>> >> > being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>> >
>> > What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>> > professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>> > take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>> > Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”
>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>> the rest of us to "take it".
>> > >> She had
>> >> > a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>> >> > the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>> >
>> > I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>> > "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>> > those terms specifically?
>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>
>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>
>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>
>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>
>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>> no vaccine available.
>>
>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>> >> > and every Democrat jumped on
>> >> > the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>> >> > force everyone everywhere to take it.
>> >
>> > Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>> > until july.
>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>> will not take a booster.
>> >> > The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>> >> > during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>> >> > knowledge or wisdom.
>> >
>> > that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>> > implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>> > going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>> > U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>> > CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>> > pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>> > trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>> > since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>> >
>> > https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>> wasn't scary enough.
>>
>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>> we got here:
>>
>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>
>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>
>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>
>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>
>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>> approach to covid:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>
>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>
> But they suffered a whole lot of deaths from Covid. I did a search on
> Covid amongst the Amish/Mennonite. Lot of stories came up. Amish
> more or less ignored it and continued their regular life. No
> vaccines, no going to the hospital, no testing for Covid. So its kind
> of like China or Russia on Covid. No good information to base
> anything off of. One story I found says this:

I don't know what the comparative rates were. Certainly the Amish guy
interviewed does not claim that the Amish had less covid, or less
sickness, or less death than the English. He just says that some things
are more important than never getting sick, or living as long as humanly
possible.

> https://news.wosu.org/coronavirus/2021-10-18/vaccinations-reported-covid-cases-remain-low-in-ohios-amish-country
> "While Holmes County’s case rate is lower than the state average, its
> hospitalization rate is slightly above the state average, and its
> death rate is well above the state’s average."
>
> https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/no-the-amish-arent-free-from-covid-and-other-diseases/
> “COVID has had a major effect on these communities, and even now, the
> counties with the greatest proportion of Amish (e.g. Lancaster County)
> have per-capita COVID-19 rates that are well above the (US) national
> average.”
> "She told AAP FactCheck in an email that it was difficult to get clear
> data on COVID-19 vaccination or hospitalization rates among the
> community because information on religious affiliation was not
> collected."
> “The large number of excess deaths among the Amish and Mennonite
> community is concerning, as it indicates not only the presence, but
> the impact of COVID-19 on this community,” the paper concluded."
>
> There were other stories about the Amish achieving herd immunity due
> to everyone getting Covid. And recovering I guess. But the
> scientists say the immunity from being infected wears off fairly
> quickly, unlike with immunization. So I would say the Amish did no
> better than the USA overall for Covid. Maybe worse. And the USA was
> the worst country in the whole world for fighting Covid. So being
> equal to the worst is not a plan I would advocate.

I believe the opposite is true, natural immunity lasts longer than that
from vaccination. You certainly can't call it "immunization".

From https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1

RESULTS Confirmed infection rates increased according to time
elapsed since the last immunity-conferring event in all cohorts. For
unvaccinated previously infected individuals they increased from
10.5 per 100,000 risk-days for those previously infected 4-6 months
ago to 30.2 for those previously infected over a year ago. For
individuals receiving a single dose following prior infection they
increased from 3.7 per 100,000 person days among those vaccinated in
the past two months to 11.6 for those vaccinated over 6 months
ago. For vaccinated previously uninfected individuals the rate per
100,000 person days increased from 21.1 for persons vaccinated
within the first two months to 88.9 for those vaccinated more than 6
months ago.

CONCLUSIONS Protection from reinfection decreases with time since
previous infection, but is, nevertheless, higher than that conferred
by vaccination with two doses at a similar time since the last
immunity-conferring event. A single vaccine dose after infection
helps to restore protection.

--

On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>
>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>
>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>
>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>
>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>
>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>
>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>
>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>
>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>
>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>
>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>> until july.
>>>>
>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>
>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>
>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>
>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>> we got here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>
>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>
>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>
>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>
>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>
>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>
>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>> unknowable now.
>>>
>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>
>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>
>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>
>>
>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>
>
>Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>
>I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>unhelpful.
>
>I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>written by at least some of the same people.

BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?

Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
through education and protective "devices".

Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".

On 5/20/2022 8:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:36:54 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>> approach to covid:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>
>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>
>> But they suffered a whole lot of deaths from Covid. I did a search on
>> Covid amongst the Amish/Mennonite. Lot of stories came up. Amish
>> more or less ignored it and continued their regular life. No
>> vaccines, no going to the hospital, no testing for Covid. So its kind
>> of like China or Russia on Covid. No good information to base
>> anything off of. One story I found says this:
>
> I don't know what the comparative rates were. Certainly the Amish guy
> interviewed does not claim that the Amish had less covid, or less
> sickness, or less death than the English. He just says that some things
> are more important than never getting sick, or living as long as humanly
> possible.

Like, making lots of money. He bragged about that, as I recall.

Priorities, I guess.

--
- Frank Krygowski