On 5/11/2022 5:18 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2022 16:36:27 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:09:37 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/11/2022 11:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 11.05.2022 um 17:43 schrieb sms:
>>>>> On 5/11/2022 12:52 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The logic for not having speed cameras is, to be frank,
>>>>>> rather amusing
>>>>>> in that Los Angeles has some 25,000 CCTV surveillance
>>>>>> cameras, which
>>>>>> is apparently O.K. but speed cameras? Oh Horrors! Never!
>>>>>> Never!
>>>>>> https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surveilled-cities/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason that speed cameras are banned in many places
>>>>> has nothing to do with surveillance. It has to do with the
>>>>> sixth amendment to the U.S. constitution. Oddly, red light
>>>>> cameras have been declared constitutional by some courts,
>>>>> and it's never been appealed all the way to the Supreme
>>>>> Court.
>>>>
>>>> Baffled: in what sense does the sixth amendment come into
>>>> this "The right to confront witnesses"?
>>>>
>>>> Is a speeding ticket really a "criminal prosecution" in the
>>>> USA?
>>> Of course. It's a moving violation on public roads as
>>> opposed to a civil matter (tort between citizens) or an
>>> administrative matter (such as parking overtime).
>>
>> Nonsense. See https://www.foleygriffin.com/blog/2021/april/is-a-traffic-ticket-a-criminal-offense-/
>>
>> "Most traffic tickets are not criminal offenses. Instead, the majority of traffic tickets are classified as infractions, also known as violations and civil infractions. Although these acts or omissions are prohibited by law, they are not considered crimes.
>>
>> Common traffic infractions include:
>>
>> Going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit
>> Rolling a stop sign
>> Forgetting to use your blinker
>> Failing to yield to pedestrians
>> Operating a vehicle without proper lighting
>> Not wearing your seatbelt
>>
>> If you get a traffic ticket for one of these infractions, you may have to go to traffic court. However, traffic court is different than criminal court, and the consequences are much different. Most traffic infractions do not result in jail time, but you may have to pay fines, receive points on your license, or go to traffic school."
>>
>>>
>>> Oh by the way if it were merely a moderate fine people
>>> wouldn't fight them so tenaciously. States have a 'points'
>>> system with incrementally more draconian punishments
>>> escalating to loss of license and then imprisonment for
>>> driving without a license...
>>
>> So what should happen to a person who drives so badly and violates so many traffic laws
>> that he accumulates so many "points" as to temporarily lose his driver's license? Maybe give
>> him a gold star and a bunch of flowers? Or wait - let him mount a siren on his car so everyone
>> gets out of his way and lets him drive as fast as he likes!
>>
>> Sheesh.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Well, one assumes that traffic laws were promulgated for a reason.
> Perhaps in an effort to reduce traffic "accidents".
>
> If this hypothesis is correct then the laws should be enforced...
> shouldn't they? Or is there some logic in making laws that are
> intended not to be enforced?

Yes.

Most people will obey laws that are intended for their own good, even
without strict enforcement, or even when enforcement is pretty much
impossible. We've seen that during the pandemic. A few jerks may insist
on "their right" to not wear a mask inside businesses and public
buildings, but most people understood the reasons why it was a good idea
and just complied. One person in this group threw a hissy fit about a
bike shop employee simply asking him to comply with a county mask
mandate, and he stormed out of the shop
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7MGs55w41Qc>.

Your oft-repeated theory that every law needs to be enforced by
cities/counties/states, which would require hiring massive number of law
enforcement officers to catch offenders is not how things are done in
the U.S.. Law enforcement in many jurisdictions concentrates on catching
more violent criminals and on trying to catch larger organized theft
rings. Try calling the police in a large Bay Area City like Oakland, San
Francisco, or San Jose, for some relatively minor thing and they'll tell
you to fill out a complaint online, they're not coming out. In smaller
cities, without a lot of more serious crimes, the police or sheriff will
generally send someone out if there's nothing more serious going on.

When each additional police officer has a burdened cost to a city of
over $300,000 it's much more cost efficient, as well as more effective,
to pay for traffic calming measures that make it difficult or impossible
to break traffic laws than to hire more people to enforce those laws.

On 5/11/2022 3:09 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Oh by the way if it were merely a moderate fine people wouldn't fight
> them so tenaciously. States have a 'points' system with incrementally
> more draconian punishments escalating to loss of license and then
> imprisonment for driving without a license...

The bigger issue for many people is that a moving violation will cause
their auto insurance rates to increase. In California you can go to
"traffic school" to keep a moving violation off of your record, but you
are limited to how often you can do that.

Going to court to "fight a ticket" is usually a losing proposition. I
did it once. I had a collection of photographs showing where the speed
limit changed abruptly from 45 to 25, on a four lane road, and where I
had just let up on the accelerator to decelerate without braking. Didn't
matter, the judge would not even look at the photos. The police officer
read a prepared statement from an index card and that was it. Your only
hope is if the police officer fails to appear.

Here is a photo of the area <https://goo.gl/maps/9Z3JXtgXuPuYBx466>. The
motorcycle officer would hide behind the building to the right of the
yellow "Thru Traffic Merge Left" sign. Now at least they also painted
the "25 MPH" on the pavement, but you needed to be going 25MPH within a
couple of seconds after passing the speed limit sign because that's when
you'd be caught on radar.

Another favorite moving violation is the "California Stop" where the
driver essentially turns a "Stop" sign into a "Yield" sign, by slowing
to say 2-5 MPH but not stopping completely. While I've never received
one of these tickets because I'm careful to never do this, this
enforcement is upsetting because while red light running is rampant, a
"California Stop" really poses little danger to anyone.

Lately, another favorite moving violation is in pedestrian crosswalks on
multi-lane divided roads. If a pedestrian steps off the curb, even if
they are ten lanes (plus a median) away, and you have a green light, do
not make a right turn until the pedestrian is all the way across. The
black vehicle turning right in this photo
<https://goo.gl/maps/ybfgvzG95FSQaNq87> would receive a traffic citation
costing probably $350, plus traffic school or an insurance increase;
even if the pedestrian had just stepped off the curb, rather than
approaching the median, it would have been a traffic citation. If
there's a line of vehicles turning right, and you don't go on the green
light because a pedestrian is 30 seconds away, the vehicles behind you
will start honking at you.

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 4:36:41 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 12.05.2022 um 02:18 schrieb John B.:
> > On Wed, 11 May 2022 16:36:27 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:09:37 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 5/11/2022 11:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>> Am 11.05.2022 um 17:43 schrieb sms:
> >>>>> On 5/11/2022 12:52 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The logic for not having speed cameras is, to be frank,
> >>>>>> rather amusing
> >>>>>> in that Los Angeles has some 25,000 CCTV surveillance
> >>>>>> cameras, which
> >>>>>> is apparently O.K. but speed cameras? Oh Horrors! Never!
> >>>>>> Never!
> >>>>>> https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surveilled-cities/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The reason that speed cameras are banned in many places
> >>>>> has nothing to do with surveillance. It has to do with the
> >>>>> sixth amendment to the U.S. constitution. Oddly, red light
> >>>>> cameras have been declared constitutional by some courts,
> >>>>> and it's never been appealed all the way to the Supreme
> >>>>> Court.
> >>>>
> >>>> Baffled: in what sense does the sixth amendment come into
> >>>> this "The right to confront witnesses"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Is a speeding ticket really a "criminal prosecution" in the
> >>>> USA?
> >>> Of course. It's a moving violation on public roads as
> >>> opposed to a civil matter (tort between citizens) or an
> >>> administrative matter (such as parking overtime).
> >>
> >> Nonsense. See https://www.foleygriffin.com/blog/2021/april/is-a-traffic-ticket-a-criminal-offense-/
> >>
> >> "Most traffic tickets are not criminal offenses. Instead, the majority of traffic tickets are classified as infractions, also known as violations and civil infractions. Although these acts or omissions are prohibited by law, they are not considered crimes.
> >>
> >> Common traffic infractions include:
> >>
> >> Going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit
> >> Rolling a stop sign
> >> Forgetting to use your blinker
> >> Failing to yield to pedestrians
> >> Operating a vehicle without proper lighting
> >> Not wearing your seatbelt
> >>
> >> If you get a traffic ticket for one of these infractions, you may have to go to traffic court. However, traffic court is different than criminal court, and the consequences are much different. Most traffic infractions do not result in jail time, but you may have to pay fines, receive points on your license, or go to traffic school."
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Oh by the way if it were merely a moderate fine people
> >>> wouldn't fight them so tenaciously. States have a 'points'
> >>> system with incrementally more draconian punishments
> >>> escalating to loss of license and then imprisonment for
> >>> driving without a license...
> >>
> >> So what should happen to a person who drives so badly and violates so many traffic laws
> >> that he accumulates so many "points" as to temporarily lose his driver's license? Maybe give
> >> him a gold star and a bunch of flowers? Or wait - let him mount a siren on his car so everyone
> >> gets out of his way and lets him drive as fast as he likes!
> >>
> >> Sheesh.
> >
> > Well, one assumes that traffic laws were promulgated for a reason.
> > Perhaps in an effort to reduce traffic "accidents".
> >
> > If this hypothesis is correct then the laws should be enforced...
> > shouldn't they? Or is there some logic in making laws that are
> > intended not to be enforced?
> Criminal prosecution is not and cannot be the only way for law
> enforcement. As AMuzi mentions, administrative matters (parking
> overtime) and minor traffic infringements can be enforced by law as well.
>
> In Europe (Napoleonic Law), we have the escalation path
> 1) (administrative) fixed penalty fine
> - accept and pay or reject giving reason ("I did not drive", "it was an
> emergency")
> 2) written proceedings to evaluate the fine
> - accept and pay (with increased costs) or put to administrative court
> 3) court proceeedings
>
> In several European countries, payment in step 1 within a few weeks
> reduces the penalty by a sigificant amount

Here repeated offenses of minor violations can grow the violation from a minor traffic violation to a criminal matter. Today hit and run is now so common that you can say that it is normal.

"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>>
>> > On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
>> >> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
>> >> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
>> >> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
>> >
>> > The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
>> > tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
>> > workzone.
>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
>>
>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
>> down, take it off ...
>>
>> --
>
> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.

I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.

Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.

The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
one might be the clincher.

Here's a study for you:

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
family or friends?

Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
to enforce that on the rest of us.

> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
>
> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
>
> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

--

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
> >>
> >> > On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
> >> >> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
> >> >> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
> >> >> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
> >> >
> >> > The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
> >> > tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
> >> > workzone.
> >> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
> >> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
> >> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
> >> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
> >> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
> >> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
> >>
> >> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
> >> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
> >> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
> >> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
> >> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
> >> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
> >> down, take it off ...
> >>
> >> --
> >
> > Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
> > 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
> > places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
> > value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
> > hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
> > 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
> > That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
>
> I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
>
> Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
> CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
> temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
> episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
>
> The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> one might be the clincher.
>
> Here's a study for you:
>
> https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
>
> Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
> first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
> assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
> Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
> and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
> family or friends?
>
> Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> to enforce that on the rest of us.
>
>
>
> > These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
> > disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
> > (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
> > 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
> > Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
> > 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
> > Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
> > nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
> > deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
> >
> > But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
> > would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
> >
> > https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
> > https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Radey, I don't think that you're going to convince these radicals. They WANT a dictatorship. They cannot tell you what Trump did wrong but they will scream to the hills that he did SOMETHING wrong. Oh, that's right - he sent mean tweets.

I have shown how many times that the deaths rates from covid-19 were an imaginary invention. a little over 8,000 people now have died from non-specific respiratory illness. This does not mean that these were covid-19 but we can assume that is what they are trying to say. But since something like 200 people have been added to that "non-specific class" and supposedly these were the people that were vaccinated, It is pretty clear that at least some of those a little more than 8,000 have absolutely nothing to do with civid-19.

When respiratory diseases have been below normal except for about a month in early 2020 what supported lockdowns except as an excuse for election fraud?

WHAT has putting people in the poor house done? What have they accomplished aside from making the rich, richer and the poor, poorer?

Now that we discover that the head of NIH and Fauci have mysteriously been given $350 Million by vaccine manufacturers it becomes even more plain that covid-19 was not a disease. 99% of the people that contracted Omicron and were admitted to hospitals were vaccinated. 100% of women who were vaccinated and entered into the Pfizer study had spontaneous abortions or stillborn children.

Now I don't think for one second that the vaccine manufacturers would do this on purpose. But when it would normally take 10 years or more to bring a vaccine to market and they did it in less than a year what could you possibly expect but errors?

On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:20:12 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/11/2022 3:09 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Oh by the way if it were merely a moderate fine people wouldn't fight
>> them so tenaciously. States have a 'points' system with incrementally
>> more draconian punishments escalating to loss of license and then
>> imprisonment for driving without a license...
>
>The bigger issue for many people is that a moving violation will cause
>their auto insurance rates to increase. In California you can go to
>"traffic school" to keep a moving violation off of your record, but you
>are limited to how often you can do that.
>
>Going to court to "fight a ticket" is usually a losing proposition. I
>did it once. I had a collection of photographs showing where the speed
>limit changed abruptly from 45 to 25, on a four lane road, and where I
>had just let up on the accelerator to decelerate without braking. Didn't
>matter, the judge would not even look at the photos. The police officer
>read a prepared statement from an index card and that was it. Your only
>hope is if the police officer fails to appear.
>
>Here is a photo of the area <https://goo.gl/maps/9Z3JXtgXuPuYBx466>. The
>motorcycle officer would hide behind the building to the right of the
>yellow "Thru Traffic Merge Left" sign. Now at least they also painted
>the "25 MPH" on the pavement, but you needed to be going 25MPH within a
>couple of seconds after passing the speed limit sign because that's when
>you'd be caught on radar.
>
>Another favorite moving violation is the "California Stop" where the
>driver essentially turns a "Stop" sign into a "Yield" sign, by slowing
>to say 2-5 MPH but not stopping completely. While I've never received
>one of these tickets because I'm careful to never do this, this
>enforcement is upsetting because while red light running is rampant, a
>"California Stop" really poses little danger to anyone.
>
>Lately, another favorite moving violation is in pedestrian crosswalks on
>multi-lane divided roads. If a pedestrian steps off the curb, even if
>they are ten lanes (plus a median) away, and you have a green light, do
>not make a right turn until the pedestrian is all the way across. The
>black vehicle turning right in this photo
><https://goo.gl/maps/ybfgvzG95FSQaNq87> would receive a traffic citation
>costing probably $350, plus traffic school or an insurance increase;
>even if the pedestrian had just stepped off the curb, rather than
>approaching the median, it would have been a traffic citation. If
>there's a line of vehicles turning right, and you don't go on the green
>light because a pedestrian is 30 seconds away, the vehicles behind you
>will start honking at you.

So the rational is if a law costs a lot of money to enforce, just
forget it?
https://tinyurl.com/4vk5c59b

This study shows that the cost of enforcing "violent crime is $10,900,
ranging from $6900 to $15,400 at the 10th and 90th percentiles,
respectively. For a property crime, the equivalent figure is $1300,
with a range from $700 to $1700."

Based on your arguments enforcing "violent crimes" which costs "a
whole bunch of money" is better not done in order to save money.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 06:45:34 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/11/2022 5:18 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 May 2022 16:36:27 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 6:09:37 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/11/2022 11:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> Am 11.05.2022 um 17:43 schrieb sms:
>>>>>> On 5/11/2022 12:52 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The logic for not having speed cameras is, to be frank,
>>>>>>> rather amusing
>>>>>>> in that Los Angeles has some 25,000 CCTV surveillance
>>>>>>> cameras, which
>>>>>>> is apparently O.K. but speed cameras? Oh Horrors! Never!
>>>>>>> Never!
>>>>>>> https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surveilled-cities/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason that speed cameras are banned in many places
>>>>>> has nothing to do with surveillance. It has to do with the
>>>>>> sixth amendment to the U.S. constitution. Oddly, red light
>>>>>> cameras have been declared constitutional by some courts,
>>>>>> and it's never been appealed all the way to the Supreme
>>>>>> Court.
>>>>>
>>>>> Baffled: in what sense does the sixth amendment come into
>>>>> this "The right to confront witnesses"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is a speeding ticket really a "criminal prosecution" in the
>>>>> USA?
>>>> Of course. It's a moving violation on public roads as
>>>> opposed to a civil matter (tort between citizens) or an
>>>> administrative matter (such as parking overtime).
>>>
>>> Nonsense. See https://www.foleygriffin.com/blog/2021/april/is-a-traffic-ticket-a-criminal-offense-/
>>>
>>> "Most traffic tickets are not criminal offenses. Instead, the majority of traffic tickets are classified as infractions, also known as violations and civil infractions. Although these acts or omissions are prohibited by law, they are not considered crimes.
>>>
>>> Common traffic infractions include:
>>>
>>> Going 5 or 10 mph over the speed limit
>>> Rolling a stop sign
>>> Forgetting to use your blinker
>>> Failing to yield to pedestrians
>>> Operating a vehicle without proper lighting
>>> Not wearing your seatbelt
>>>
>>> If you get a traffic ticket for one of these infractions, you may have to go to traffic court. However, traffic court is different than criminal court, and the consequences are much different. Most traffic infractions do not result in jail time, but you may have to pay fines, receive points on your license, or go to traffic school."
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh by the way if it were merely a moderate fine people
>>>> wouldn't fight them so tenaciously. States have a 'points'
>>>> system with incrementally more draconian punishments
>>>> escalating to loss of license and then imprisonment for
>>>> driving without a license...
>>>
>>> So what should happen to a person who drives so badly and violates so many traffic laws
>>> that he accumulates so many "points" as to temporarily lose his driver's license? Maybe give
>>> him a gold star and a bunch of flowers? Or wait - let him mount a siren on his car so everyone
>>> gets out of his way and lets him drive as fast as he likes!
>>>
>>> Sheesh.
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Well, one assumes that traffic laws were promulgated for a reason.
>> Perhaps in an effort to reduce traffic "accidents".
>>
>> If this hypothesis is correct then the laws should be enforced...
>> shouldn't they? Or is there some logic in making laws that are
>> intended not to be enforced?
>
>Yes.
>
>Most people will obey laws that are intended for their own good, even
>without strict enforcement, or even when enforcement is pretty much
>impossible. We've seen that during the pandemic. A few jerks may insist
>on "their right" to not wear a mask inside businesses and public
>buildings, but most people understood the reasons why it was a good idea
>and just complied. One person in this group threw a hissy fit about a
>bike shop employee simply asking him to comply with a county mask
>mandate, and he stormed out of the shop
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7MGs55w41Qc>.
>
>Your oft-repeated theory that every law needs to be enforced by
>cities/counties/states, which would require hiring massive number of law
>enforcement officers to catch offenders is not how things are done in
>the U.S.. Law enforcement in many jurisdictions concentrates on catching
>more violent criminals and on trying to catch larger organized theft
>rings. Try calling the police in a large Bay Area City like Oakland, San
>Francisco, or San Jose, for some relatively minor thing and they'll tell
>you to fill out a complaint online, they're not coming out. In smaller
>cities, without a lot of more serious crimes, the police or sheriff will
>generally send someone out if there's nothing more serious going on.
>
>When each additional police officer has a burdened cost to a city of
>over $300,000 it's much more cost efficient, as well as more effective,
>to pay for traffic calming measures that make it difficult or impossible
>to break traffic laws than to hire more people to enforce those laws.

Certainly makes a lot of sense... I suppose that then some kids are
run over and killed at a school crossing you just shrug it off and
tell the parents, "Well, it costs too much money to station a
Policeman at the school crossing...
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 12 May 2022 16:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
>> >> >> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
>> >> >> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
>> >> >> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
>> >> >
>> >> > The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
>> >> > tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
>> >> > workzone.
>> >> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
>> >> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
>> >> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
>> >> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
>> >> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
>> >> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
>> >>
>> >> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
>> >> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
>> >> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
>> >> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
>> >> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
>> >> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
>> >> down, take it off ...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >
>> > Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
>> > 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
>> > places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
>> > value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
>> > hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
>> > 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
>> > That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
>>
>> I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
>>
>> Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
>> CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
>> temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
>> episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
>>
>> The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
>> by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
>> civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
>> one might be the clincher.
>>
>> Here's a study for you:
>>
>> https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
>>
>> Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
>> locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
>> first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
>> assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
>> Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
>> and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
>> family or friends?
>>
>> Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
>> from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
>> call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
>> to enforce that on the rest of us.
>>
>>
>>
>> > These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
>> > disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
>> > (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
>> > 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
>> > Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
>> > 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
>> > Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
>> > nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
>> > deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
>> >
>> > But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
>> > would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
>> >
>> > https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
>> > https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
>
>Radey, I don't think that you're going to convince these radicals. They WANT a dictatorship. They cannot tell you what Trump did wrong but they will scream to the hills that he did SOMETHING wrong. Oh, that's right - he sent mean tweets.
>
https://www.indy100.com/news/donald-trump-worst-acts-president

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/12/2022 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
>>>>> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
>>>>> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
>>>>> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
>>>>
>>>> The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
>>>> tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
>>>> workzone.
>>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
>>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
>>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
>>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
>>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
>>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
>>>
>>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
>>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
>>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
>>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
>>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
>>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
>>> down, take it off ...
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
>> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
>> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
>> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
>> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
>> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
>> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
>
> I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
>
> Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
> CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
> temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
> episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
>
> The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> one might be the clincher.
>
> Here's a study for you:
>
> https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
>
> Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
> first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
> assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
> Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
> and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
> family or friends?
>
> Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> to enforce that on the rest of us.
>
>
>
>> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
>> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
>> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
>> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
>> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
>> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
>> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
>> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
>> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
>>
>> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
>> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
>>
>> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
>> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
>

The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide
mission. Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of
Xi) 2 years to wake up and smell the coffee.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/12/2022 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Certainly makes a lot of sense... I suppose that then some kids are
> run over and killed at a school crossing you just shrug it off and
> tell the parents, "Well, it costs too much money to station a
> Policeman at the school crossing.

What we have at school crossings are crossing guards. It's not necessary
to have a police officer at school crossings.

Also, school crosswalk enforcement around schools is one thing that the
police are busy doing, especially in the mornings.

On Tue, 10 May 2022 11:18:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> "If God didn't want people to blow through school zones and red lights
> at 40 mph, He wouldn't have invented diesel pickup trucks!" Or something
> like that.

Red-light cameras offer the wrong motivation to their operators:
instead of being paid to stop speeding, they are paid to harvest
speeders.

Have you heard of a red-light camera that photographs a car at the
moment when the driver commits to going through an intersection?
No, it's always while the car is *in* the intersection, when the
light no longer applies and the driver's only duty is to get out
as soon as it's safely possible.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On Thu, 12 May 2022 23:06:02 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 May 2022 11:18:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> "If God didn't want people to blow through school zones and red lights
>> at 40 mph, He wouldn't have invented diesel pickup trucks!" Or something
>> like that.
>
>
>Red-light cameras offer the wrong motivation to their operators:
>instead of being paid to stop speeding, they are paid to harvest
>speeders.
>
>Have you heard of a red-light camera that photographs a car at the
>moment when the driver commits to going through an intersection?
>No, it's always while the car is *in* the intersection, when the
>light no longer applies and the driver's only duty is to get out
>as soon as it's safely possible.

Well, you are correct however...

Firstly the "crime" is not stopping for the red light so, until the do
not stop no "crime" has been committed. And secondly how do you
propose to determine what the individual's "intent" is until he
actually does whatever you anticipate he might to do.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2022-05-06, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
<snip>
> I've been told that he and his wife were riding on the country road
> where they live. She was riding in front when she came to a stop to chat
> with a neighbor. She heard a crash behind her and turned to see her
> husband lying on the road. She suspects that as he stopped, he failed to
> unclip from his pedal. He'd been having some trouble with that pedal.
>
> He toppled and hit his head. He died very soon of the brain injury.
>
<snip>

Hi Frank.
Sorry for the death of your friend. A sad reminder of our mortality and how
easily life can go away when one least expects it.

Pureheart in Aptos

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 7:34:15 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
> >>>>> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
> >>>>> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
> >>>>> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
> >>>>
> >>>> The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
> >>>> tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
> >>>> workzone.
> >>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them"..
> >>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
> >>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
> >>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
> >>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
> >>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
> >>>
> >>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
> >>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
> >>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
> >>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
> >>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
> >>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
> >>> down, take it off ...
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>
> >> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
> >> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
> >> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
> >> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
> >> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
> >> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
> >> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
> >
> > I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
> >
> > Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
> > CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
> > temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
> > episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
> >
> > The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> > by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> > civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> > one might be the clincher.
> >
> > Here's a study for you:
> >
> > https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
> >
> > Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> > locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
> > first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
> > assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
> > Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
> > and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
> > family or friends?
> >
> > Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> > from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> > call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> > to enforce that on the rest of us.
> >
> >
> >
> >> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
> >> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
> >> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
> >> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
> >> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
> >> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
> >> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
> >> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
> >> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
> >>
> >> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
> >> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
> >>
> >> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
> >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
> >
> The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide
> mission. Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of
> Xi) 2 years to wake up and smell the coffee.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I assume you are referring to Sweden going against the worldwide methodology of lockdowns and restrictions for Covid. At least initially in 2020 and through part of 2021. Everyone except Shanghai is wide open now. Was Sweden successful?

Sweden population 10.2 million Covid deaths 18,824 Infections 2.5 million
Finland pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 4,150 Infections 1.05 million
Norway pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 3,061 Infections 1.4 million
Denmark pop. 5.8 million Covid deaths 6,260 Infections 3.1 million

Sweden has double the population of all of its nordic neighbors. So you have to double the deaths and cases to get comparisons with its nordic neighbors. If you do that then Sweden had 50% more Covid deaths than Denmark. 200% more than Norway. 125% more than Finland. Success?

And here is the total GDP of each country in 2020 and the percentage change from the prior year. Sweden has double the population so has a bigger GDP than its neighbors. Its double Finland's, but not near double of Denmark and Norway. But per person GDP wealth is somewhat similar amongst all these nordic countries.
Denmark GDP 2020 355 Billion -2.1%
Finland GDP 2020 271 Billion -2.8%
Norway GDP 2020 362 Billion -0.7%
Sweden GDP 2020 537 Billion -2.9%
Did Sweden win by not locking down? Economically it appears they saw similar declines in GDP in 2020 as its neighbors. Except Norway did really well.. But they are an outlier apparently.

Did Sweden WIN by not locking down? Their GDP dropped similar to their neighbors. So no economic win. They had a lot WORSE death rate than their neighbors. I think deaths is kind of important. And their sick/infections was similar to Finland and Norway so cost of people going to the hospital was about the same. Denmark was an outlier with sick people so throw them out.

If the goal was to kill people with no economic benefits, then Sweden won by not locking down and having no Covid restrictions. Yeah Sweden. Kill em, kill em, kill em.

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 2:12:11 AM UTC-5, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 7:34:15 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/12/2022 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
> > >>>>> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
> > >>>>> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
> > >>>>> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
> > >>>> tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
> > >>>> workzone.
> > >>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
> > >>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
> > >>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats..
> > >>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
> > >>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
> > >>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
> > >>>
> > >>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
> > >>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
> > >>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
> > >>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
> > >>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
> > >>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
> > >>> down, take it off ...
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>
> > >> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
> > >> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
> > >> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
> > >> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
> > >> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
> > >> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now..
> > >> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
> > >
> > > I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
> > >
> > > Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
> > > CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
> > > temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
> > > episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
> > >
> > > The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> > > by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> > > civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> > > one might be the clincher.
> > >
> > > Here's a study for you:
> > >
> > > https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
> > >
> > > Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> > > locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
> > > first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
> > > assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
> > > Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
> > > and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
> > > family or friends?
> > >
> > > Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> > > from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> > > call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> > > to enforce that on the rest of us.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
> > >> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
> > >> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
> > >> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
> > >> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
> > >> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
> > >> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
> > >> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
> > >> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
> > >>
> > >> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
> > >> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
> > >>
> > >> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
> > >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
> > >
> > The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide
> > mission. Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of
> > Xi) 2 years to wake up and smell the coffee.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> I assume you are referring to Sweden going against the worldwide methodology of lockdowns and restrictions for Covid. At least initially in 2020 and through part of 2021. Everyone except Shanghai is wide open now. Was Sweden successful?
>
> Sweden population 10.2 million Covid deaths 18,824 Infections 2.5 million
> Finland pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 4,150 Infections 1.05 million
> Norway pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 3,061 Infections 1.4 million
> Denmark pop. 5.8 million Covid deaths 6,260 Infections 3.1 million
>
> Sweden has double the population of all of its nordic neighbors. So you have to double the deaths and cases to get comparisons with its nordic neighbors. If you do that then Sweden had 50% more Covid deaths than Denmark. 200% more than Norway. 125% more than Finland. Success?
>
> And here is the total GDP of each country in 2020 and the percentage change from the prior year. Sweden has double the population so has a bigger GDP than its neighbors. Its double Finland's, but not near double of Denmark and Norway. But per person GDP wealth is somewhat similar amongst all these nordic countries.
> Denmark GDP 2020 355 Billion -2.1%
> Finland GDP 2020 271 Billion -2.8%
> Norway GDP 2020 362 Billion -0.7%
> Sweden GDP 2020 537 Billion -2.9%
> Did Sweden win by not locking down? Economically it appears they saw similar declines in GDP in 2020 as its neighbors. Except Norway did really well.. But they are an outlier apparently.
>
> Did Sweden WIN by not locking down? Their GDP dropped similar to their neighbors. So no economic win. They had a lot WORSE death rate than their neighbors. I think deaths is kind of important. And their sick/infections was similar to Finland and Norway so cost of people going to the hospital was about the same. Denmark was an outlier with sick people so throw them out.
>
> If the goal was to kill people with no economic benefits, then Sweden won by not locking down and having no Covid restrictions. Yeah Sweden. Kill em, kill em, kill em.

Sorry, forgot to post links providing the numbers above.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8242624/
Cases and deaths from Covid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data
GDP and growth.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=SE&name_desc=true
I used Google search to get each country's population.

On Fri, 13 May 2022 00:12:09 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 7:34:15 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/12/2022 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
>> >>>>> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
>> >>>>> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
>> >>>>> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
>> >>>> tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
>> >>>> workzone.
>> >>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them".
>> >>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
>> >>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
>> >>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
>> >>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
>> >>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
>> >>>
>> >>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
>> >>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
>> >>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
>> >>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
>> >>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
>> >>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
>> >>> down, take it off ...
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>
>> >> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
>> >> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
>> >> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
>> >> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
>> >> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
>> >> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
>> >> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
>> >
>> > I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
>> >
>> > Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
>> > CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
>> > temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
>> > episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
>> >
>> > The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
>> > by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
>> > civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
>> > one might be the clincher.
>> >
>> > Here's a study for you:
>> >
>> > https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
>> >
>> > Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
>> > locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
>> > first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
>> > assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
>> > Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
>> > and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
>> > family or friends?
>> >
>> > Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
>> > from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
>> > call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
>> > to enforce that on the rest of us.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
>> >> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
>> >> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
>> >> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
>> >> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
>> >> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
>> >> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
>> >> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
>> >> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
>> >>
>> >> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
>> >> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
>> >>
>> >> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
>> >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
>> >
>> The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide
>> mission. Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of
>> Xi) 2 years to wake up and smell the coffee.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>I assume you are referring to Sweden going against the worldwide methodology of lockdowns and restrictions for Covid. At least initially in 2020 and through part of 2021. Everyone except Shanghai is wide open now. Was Sweden successful?
>
>Sweden population 10.2 million Covid deaths 18,824 Infections 2.5 million
>Finland pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 4,150 Infections 1.05 million
>Norway pop. 5.5 million Covid deaths 3,061 Infections 1.4 million
>Denmark pop. 5.8 million Covid deaths 6,260 Infections 3.1 million
>
>Sweden has double the population of all of its nordic neighbors. So you have to double the deaths and cases to get comparisons with its nordic neighbors. If you do that then Sweden had 50% more Covid deaths than Denmark. 200% more than Norway. 125% more than Finland. Success?
>
>And here is the total GDP of each country in 2020 and the percentage change from the prior year. Sweden has double the population so has a bigger GDP than its neighbors. Its double Finland's, but not near double of Denmark and Norway. But per person GDP wealth is somewhat similar amongst all these nordic countries.
>Denmark GDP 2020 355 Billion -2.1%
>Finland GDP 2020 271 Billion -2.8%
>Norway GDP 2020 362 Billion -0.7%
>Sweden GDP 2020 537 Billion -2.9%
>Did Sweden win by not locking down? Economically it appears they saw similar declines in GDP in 2020 as its neighbors. Except Norway did really well. But they are an outlier apparently.
>
>Did Sweden WIN by not locking down? Their GDP dropped similar to their neighbors. So no economic win. They had a lot WORSE death rate than their neighbors. I think deaths is kind of important. And their sick/infections was similar to Finland and Norway so cost of people going to the hospital was about the same. Denmark was an outlier with sick people so throw them out.
>
>If the goal was to kill people with no economic benefits, then Sweden won by not locking down and having no Covid restrictions. Yeah Sweden. Kill em, kill em, kill em.

Thailand initially imposed very strict conditions to control the
Covid, even travel inside the country was curtailed with some
provinces closed to outsiders. And it worked! Daily new cases dropped
from a high of 23,400 daily to 2,430. Hooray! Hooray! So the
conditions were relaxed and every one heaved a great sigh of relief...
and the number of cases shot up to a new high, 28,370 daily, even
higher then the first onslaught. So the harsh conditions were
reinstated and as of today new cases are 7,779.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/thailand/
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/12/2022 5:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
> The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> one might be the clincher.
>
> Here's a study for you:
>
> https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

From https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220204/lockdowns-covid-deaths-study

"The findings, which have not been peer reviewed, conflict with previous
studies that found lockdowns worked."

And: "Reaction to the paper’s release has been mixed. Many conservatives
have seized on the paper to argue that lockdowns never worked and to
criticize governments that implemented them. Other experts, meanwhile,
point to what they see as major flaws in the report.

“Smoking causes cancer, the earth is round, and ordering people to
stay at home (the correct definition of lockdown) decreases disease
transmission,” Seth Flaxman, associate professor in the Department of
Computer Science at the University of Oxford, said in a statement. “.
None of this is controversial among scientists. A study purporting to
prove the opposite is almost certain to be fundamentally flawed.”

> Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> locations, are you in favor of that?

I've always favored natural breast feeding. And no rational person
thought that COVID rules and responses would be free of negative
effects. But ever since the virus appeared, some irrational
right-wingers have been pretending all would have been perfect if we had
just let COVID run its course unabated.

As it was, we've had a million deaths (no matter what Tom says) despite
serious defense measures. Without measures, those deaths might have
doubled. Are you in favor of that?

> Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> to enforce that on the rest of us.

You ignore the fact that the infected and ignorant put not only
themselves at risk. They impose their ignorant choices on others.

I'm reminded of the woman who, during the "masks are required" phase,
stormed barefaced into our local pharmacy yelling "Freedom! Freedom!
Freedom!" and stormed back out. SO impressive! SO convincing!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/12/2022 7:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> I have shown how many times that the deaths rates from covid-19 were an imaginary invention.

No you haven't, Tom. Nobody believes you. Nobody.

Your nonsense has been corrected many times, but you are incapable of
learning.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/12/2022 8:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide mission.
> Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of Xi) 2 years to wake up
> and smell the coffee.

Please don't pretend things are so clear, that Sweden was perfectly
right and everyone else was wrong.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scathing-evaluation-swedens-covid-response-reveals-failures-control/story?id=83644832

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/12/2022 11:06 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 11:18:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> "If God didn't want people to blow through school zones and red lights
>> at 40 mph, He wouldn't have invented diesel pickup trucks!" Or something
>> like that.
>
>
> Red-light cameras offer the wrong motivation to their operators:
> instead of being paid to stop speeding, they are paid to harvest
> speeders.
>
> Have you heard of a red-light camera that photographs a car at the
> moment when the driver commits to going through an intersection?
> No, it's always while the car is *in* the intersection, when the
> light no longer applies and the driver's only duty is to get out
> as soon as it's safely possible.

We don't have local experience with red light cameras. We do have local
experience with speed cameras on the inner-city freeway. They operated
for a couple years until the "law and order" party controlling the State
House applied big disincentives.

Their effect? Observed speeds, observed speed differentials and serious
crashes all plummeted. The cameras worked.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:34:15 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 4:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 10:21:11 AM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 16:12:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> The only object overhead might, I suppose, have been a meteor. And
> >>>>> really, his biggest chance of a head injury would have been while
> >>>>> driving the truck, unless he tripped on exit. But apparently no
> >>>>> regulation said to wear a helmet while driving or exiting.
> >>>>
> >>>> The main purpose of hard hats on open-air jobs is to make it easy to
> >>>> tell the workmen from spectators who need to be shooed out of the
> >>>> workzone.
> >>> +1. A hard hat says "I belong here, I know the rules and follow them"..
> >>> Finer gradations are possible -- visitors get semi-disposable "bump
> >>> caps", possibly in an odd color. Management have spotless hard hats.
> >>> Actual workers have dingy looking hard hats, in the winter they've got
> >>> ear warmers on them. Those that wish to stand out can procure
> >>> OSHA-approved cowboy style hard hats.
> >>>
> >>> But why rag on hard hats when we've just seen most of the world forced
> >>> to learn a new pointless performative PPE dance? Walk up to the door of
> >>> the pub, drag a minimal face rag out of your pocket, put it on, walk to
> >>> your table, take it off and put it in your pocket. Eat, drink, and be
> >>> merry until you have to stand up and walk to the john, then put the
> >>> nasty contaminated face rag on until you get back to the table. Sit
> >>> down, take it off ...
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>
> >> Agree. We should re-implement the policies used in the mid and later
> >> 2020. Stop all gatherings and close restaurants, bars, meeting
> >> places. That would help to stamp out the Covid epidemic. But USians
> >> value human life very little. So we are happy to tolerate a couple
> >> hundred thousand extra dead people each year. 350,831 Covid deaths in
> >> 2020 per the CDC. 323 deaths each day according to the CDC right now.
> >> That only amounts to 118,000 dead each year. A pittance.
> >
> > I really can't tell whether you're trying to be serious.
> >
> > Fortunately governments all over the world, with the exception of the
> > CCP, have finally realized what lunacy that is. Perhaps it's only
> > temporary, as we're plainly living through one of the more extreme
> > episodes of popular delusions and the madness of crowds.
> >
> > The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly outweighed
> > by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID health care,
> > civil liberties, and confidence in government institutions. That last
> > one might be the clincher.
> >
> > Here's a study for you:
> >
> > https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
> >
> > Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the normal retail
> > locations, are you in favor of that? How about introducing another
> > first grade class to school at the boring end of a computer screen,
> > assuming their parents have the wherewithal to provide broadband access?
> > Or another years toll of the sick, tired, and old dying in nursing homes
> > and hospitals without the comfort and support of even one visit from
> > family or friends?
> >
> > Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to remove yourself
> > from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet posting, zoom
> > call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well. Just don't try
> > to enforce that on the rest of us.
> >
> >
> >
> >> These were the leading causes of death in the USA in 2020. Heart
> >> disease: 696,962, Cancer: 602,350, COVID-19: 350,831, Accidents
> >> (unintentional injuries): 200,955, Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases):
> >> 160,264, Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 152,657 (Tommy thinks
> >> Covid should be included in this category), Alzheimer’s disease:
> >> 134,242, Diabetes: 102,188, Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,544 (or maybe
> >> Tommy thinks this is Covid), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and
> >> nephrosis: 52,547. Not sure why CDC has 2020 deaths and not 2021
> >> deaths. Government is not too up to date on their websites.
> >>
> >> But Covid killing only 118,000 per year at the current rate. That
> >> would be only 7th best killer. We can ignore it now.
> >>
> >> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
> >> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
> >
> The Swedes, amazingly, were the un-lemmings on that suicide
> mission. Took everyone else (except the Middle Kingdom of
> Xi) 2 years to wake up and smell the coffee.

I often wonder what goes through the heads of people that have to believe they have not been fooled by Fauci to the point that they will NOT believe the CDC statistics I showed several times. When there is a peak of respiratory deaths of some 8,000 people and then lower than normal deaths from respiratory diseases for early April of 2020 until now.

They have to believe that vaccinations are a good thing despite the absolutely horrifying Pfizer documents that show 4,000 dead and many, many permanent injuries and things like 100% of pregnant women have either auto-abortions or stillborn children. And 25% of children 12 and below that were accidentally vaccinated dying and a large percentage of the rest having permanent disabilities of one sort of another.

Frank has lost a friend he probably would not have had he been wearing a helmet. This is the precise sort of accident in which helmet are effective. But a thousand to one that it would change Franks views on helmets. I have argued ON HIS SIDE that helmets do not save lives. But the overwhelming majority of deaths are not from single bicycle accidents but from auto involvement. Helmet have absolutely no effect on auto accidents but they most assuredly do for the simple fall-over accident as this one was.

OK, Frank rides slow and carefully. He doesn't require a helmet and probably never will. But a stuck clipless pedal is not that uncommon and wearing a helmet just in case is not an expensive or silly safety procedure. My Bontrager Wave Cell helmet cost $80 and I bought a new one simply because I felt that the old one was degrading from sunlight which it may or may not have been. But for a $20 Bell helmet Franks friend may very well be alive today.. So why is Frank so adamantly against helmets?

russell... lied:

(....)
> If the goal was to kill people with no economic benefits, then Sweden
> won by not locking down and having no Covid restrictions. Yeah
> Sweden. Kill em, kill em, kill em.

As if Americans would seriously shed a tear about a little mortality
anywhere, or some 7,000 extra foreign dead, median age 84 or so.

<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSj0aZHXsAA48Nn?format=jpg>
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSAA5HIUUAEQDpV?format=jpg>
<https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/population/population-composition/population-statistics/pong/tables-and-graphs/yearly-statistics--the-whole-country/population-and-population-changes/>
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSYvsMuXMAAlmyQ?format=jpg>
<https://twitter.com/IdoKobi/status/1523234945187127296>

--
"Now Auditioning Ukrainian Strippers" (Little Darlings, Las Vegas)

Just don't call it a p***y war!

Tom Kunich wrote:

> I often wonder what goes through the heads of people that have to
> believe they have not been fooled by Fauci to the point that they
> will NOT believe the CDC statistics I showed several times.

This Fauxi song's for Frank, to fiddle :
<https://twitter.com/backtolife_2022/status/1525118497180852225>

This song's for Norway-fanboy russell... or any other googliot who wants
to fact-check what the exact shift of the two graphs was:
<https://twitter.com/TexasLindsay/status/1525117348193107976>

And this movie is for those who can cut two hours from following the Giro:
<https://www.marijnpoels.com/copy-of-pandamned-englisch>
Yes, he's the cousin of pro cyclist Wout Poels.

On 5/13/2022 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 5:21 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>
>> The tiny or illusory benefits of lockdowns are plainly
>> outweighed
>> by the damages to industry, commerce, education, non-COVID
>> health care,
>> civil liberties, and confidence in government
>> institutions. That last
>> one might be the clincher.
>>
>> Here's a study for you:
>>
>> https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf
>>
>
> From
> https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220204/lockdowns-covid-deaths-study
>
>
> "The findings, which have not been peer reviewed, conflict
> with previous studies that found lockdowns worked."
>
> And: "Reaction to the paper’s release has been mixed. Many
> conservatives have seized on the paper to argue that
> lockdowns never worked and to criticize governments that
> implemented them. Other experts, meanwhile, point to what
> they see as major flaws in the report.
>
> “Smoking causes cancer, the earth is round, and ordering
> people to stay at home (the correct definition of lockdown)
> decreases disease transmission,” Seth Flaxman, associate
> professor in the Department of Computer Science at the
> University of Oxford, said in a statement. “. None of this
> is controversial among scientists. A study purporting to
> prove the opposite is almost certain to be fundamentally
> flawed.”
>
>> Currently infant formula is unavailable at 43% of the
>> normal retail
>> locations, are you in favor of that?
>
> I've always favored natural breast feeding. And no rational
> person thought that COVID rules and responses would be free
> of negative effects. But ever since the virus appeared, some
> irrational right-wingers have been pretending all would have
> been perfect if we had just let COVID run its course unabated.
>
> As it was, we've had a million deaths (no matter what Tom
> says) despite serious defense measures. Without measures,
> those deaths might have doubled. Are you in favor of that?
>
>> Lockdowns are plainly untenable. But if you want to
>> remove yourself
>> from human circulation, save for the occasional usenet
>> posting, zoom
>> call, or grocery drone delivery, then I wish you well.
>> Just don't try
>> to enforce that on the rest of us.
>
> You ignore the fact that the infected and ignorant put not
> only themselves at risk. They impose their ignorant choices
> on others.
>
> I'm reminded of the woman who, during the "masks are
> required" phase, stormed barefaced into our local pharmacy
> yelling "Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!" and stormed back out.
> SO impressive! SO convincing!
>
>

> "You ignore the fact that the infected and ignorant put not
> only themselves at risk. They impose their ignorant choices
> on others."

People who have survived the Wuhan bioweapon virus put no
one at risk.

Those who have had a few or a half dozen mRNA shots will
continue to contract and spread the virus (but with lower
risk of death to themselves).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/13/2022 12:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I often wonder what goes through the heads of people that have to believe they have not been fooled by Fauci to the point that they will NOT believe the CDC statistics I showed several times.

Oh good grief! While you fantasize about your own brilliance and blame
Dr. Fauci for any bad news about COVID, the rest of the world is taking
COVID very seriously based on their own data.

Do you seriously think China is getting all its information from Fauci?
How about Britain? Italy? Germany? Thailand? How about dozens of other
countries? Do you not realize they have their own independent health
professionals, their own epidemiologists, their own researchers and
manufacturers?

All those other countries don't have to listen to Dr. Fauci. Their own
experts are reaching similar conclusions. But much more important, NONE
of those countries are listening to Tom Kunich.

> Frank has lost a friend he probably would not have had he been wearing a helmet. This is the precise sort of accident in which helmet are effective.

Tom, you're losing your mind. You're no longer retaining the simplest
facts.

One of my major points with that initial post was that my friend WAS
wearing a helmet. He his bike toppled at zero speed and he died quickly
from a brain injury. The helmet failed to provide the average protection
even at that minimal level.

The protective effects of bicycle helmets is tremendously exaggerated,
as is their necessity.

--
- Frank Krygowski