On 5/20/2022 9:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>
> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> through education and protective "devices".
>
> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>
> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>
> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>
> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> running for the border in terror.

I do know one guy who literally ran to the border, IOW fled to Canada. I
also know several guys who were in battle in Viet Nam and are
significantly worse for it.

But as I recall, the bulk of the outrage against the war was not merely
"I might get shot." There was at least as much "We shouldn't be doing
this to those people." Right or wrong, I remember protesters shouting
about "baby killers" and counter-protesters talking about wiping out
villages to save them.

And as I recall, they had an election. We didn't like the results. That
was important in our so-called strategy.

But I'm open to correction on all the above. It's not high in my
consciousness these days.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/20/2022 8:43 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>
>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>
>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>
>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>
>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>
>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>
>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>
>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>
>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>
>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>
>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>> until july.
>>>>
>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>
>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>
>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>
>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>> we got here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>
>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>
>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>
>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>
>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>
>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>
>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>> unknowable now.
>>>
>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>
>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>
>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay
>> home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good
>> to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube
>> and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many
>> people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine
>
> Sure they did, here's Rochelle Walensky:
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-director-data-vaccinated-people-do-not-carry-covid-19-2021-3
>
> During an MSNBC interview with Rachel Maddow on Monday, Walensky said:
> "Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not
> carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical
> trials, but it's also in real-world data."

And your point is what - that didn't turn out to be true? IOW further
data indicated otherwise?

Sorry, Raday, but that's how science works. As more information comes
in, you're supposed to adjust your views, predictions, etc.

I've never seen decent data indicating the proper strategy was to do
nothing. The overflowing hospitals around here said otherwise.

>> just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial.
>> Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90
>> mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit
>> you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the
>> vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the
>> vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not
>> hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground
>> and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>
> One issue is that immunity from vaccination is quite short lived and
> does not start immediately, you have to time your exposure. The other
> is that side effects, some pretty bad, like myocarditis, seem to be
> pretty common.

Pretty common? As in, roughly ten cases per million vaccines, almost all
easily curable? Wow. Such fear mongering!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>
>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>
>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>
>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>
>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>
>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>
>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>
>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>
>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>
>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>
>>
>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>
>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>> unhelpful.
>>
>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>> written by at least some of the same people.
>
> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>
> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> through education and protective "devices".
>
> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>
> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>
> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>
> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> running for the border in terror.
>

On Fri, 20 May 2022 22:30:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 9:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>
>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>> through education and protective "devices".
>>
>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>
>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>
>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>
>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>> running for the border in terror.
>
>I do know one guy who literally ran to the border, IOW fled to Canada. I
>also know several guys who were in battle in Viet Nam and are
>significantly worse for it.
>
>But as I recall, the bulk of the outrage against the war was not merely
>"I might get shot." There was at least as much "We shouldn't be doing
>this to those people." Right or wrong, I remember protesters shouting
>about "baby killers" and counter-protesters talking about wiping out
>villages to save them.
>
>And as I recall, they had an election. We didn't like the results. That
>was important in our so-called strategy.
>
>But I'm open to correction on all the above. It's not high in my
>consciousness these days.

Well, from the Vietnam point of view it basically started with Uncle
Ho kicking the French out of the country. Then the UN sponsored a
scheme where after a few years time an election would be held to see
whether the country should be united under the Northerners or the
Southerners. Or in very basic terms, Uncle Ho, or the other guy, and
Uncle Ho was viewed by the majority of the population as the George
Washington of Vietnam..

Of course, the U.S. couldn't be happy with that situation and so we
underwrote a fanatical Christian "President" who gave land to the
Church while in the North Uncle Ho gave land to the peasants.

A question I was asked, more then once, by Vietnamese was "Why does a
big rich country like the U.S. want to invade a little country like
Vietnam?" When you replied, "To fight Communism" they looked puzzled.
After all, life under communism couldn't be worse then life under the
French (who the U.S. had supported)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>
>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>
>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>> unhelpful.
>>>
>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>
>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>
>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>> through education and protective "devices".
>>
>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>
>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>
>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>
>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>> running for the border in terror.
>>
>
>The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>much smaller than the mythic version.

On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>
>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>
>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>> unhelpful.
>>>
>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>
>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>
>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>> through education and protective "devices".
>>
>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>
>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>
>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>
>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>> running for the border in terror.
>>
>
>The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>much smaller than the mythic version.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 11:15:25 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

snipped

>Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>"in service newspaper").

more snipped

Sorry, I somehow sent this message twice.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:43:19 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> > "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> >>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >> >>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >> >>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >> >>
> >> >> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >> >> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >> >> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >> >> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >> >
> >> > I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >> > On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >> > the rest of us to "take it".
> >> >
> >> >> >> She had
> >> >>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >> >>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >> >>
> >> >> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >> >> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >> >> those terms specifically?
> >> >
> >> > Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >> >
> >> > You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >> >
> >> > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump..html
> >> >
> >> > It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >> > after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >> > Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >> > election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >> >
> >> > @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >> >
> >> > When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >> > no vaccine available.
> >> >
> >> > Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >> >>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >> >>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >> >> until july.
> >> >
> >> > You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >> > nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >> > but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >> > will not take a booster.
> >> >
> >> >>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >> >>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >> >>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >> >>
> >> >> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >> >> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >> >> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >> >> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >> >> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >> >> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >> >> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >> >> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >> >
> >> > 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground..
> >> > The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >> > saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >> > wasn't scary enough.
> >> >
> >> > I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >> > we got here:
> >> >
> >> > https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >> >
> >> > Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >> > for eradicating smallpox:
> >> >
> >> > http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >> >
> >> > I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >> >
> >> > For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >> > approach to covid:
> >> >
> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >> >
> >> > The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >> > they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >> >
> >> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >> unknowable now.
> >>
> >> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>
> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>
> >> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>
> >> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay
> > home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good
> > to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube
> > and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many
> > people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine
> Sure they did, here's Rochelle Walensky:
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-director-data-vaccinated-people-do-not-carry-covid-19-2021-3
>
> During an MSNBC interview with Rachel Maddow on Monday, Walensky said:
> "Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not
> carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical
> trials, but it's also in real-world data."
> > just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial.
> > Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90
> > mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit
> > you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the
> > vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the
> > vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not
> > hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground
> > and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> One issue is that immunity from vaccination is quite short lived and
> does not start immediately, you have to time your exposure. The other
> is that side effects, some pretty bad, like myocarditis, seem to be
> pretty common.

Sorry I had to copy so much text for the myocarditis. But its really rare. Not pretty common at all. The website below details all of the Covid vaccine ailments. You are far better off getting the vaccine and being protected from Covid than the risk from any vaccine problems.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html
Myocarditis and pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, and pericarditis is inflammation of the outer lining of the heart. Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly. Most cases have been reported after receiving Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna (mRNA COVID-19 vaccines), particularly in male adolescents and young adults.

Radey Shouman wrote:
> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> writes:

>> https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/no-the-amish-arent-free-from-covid-and-other-diseases/

>> There were other stories about the Amish achieving herd immunity due
>> to everyone getting Covid. And recovering I guess. But the
>> scientists say the immunity from being infected wears off fairly
>> quickly, unlike with immunization. So I would say the Amish did no
>> better than the USA overall for Covid. Maybe worse. And the USA was
>> the worst country in the whole world for fighting Covid. So being
>> equal to the worst is not a plan I would advocate.

russ... can rest assured that the Amish will never bother to ask any
materialistic Englisch fool's advice on their spirituality,
demographics, or sense of politics.

> I believe the opposite is true, natural immunity lasts longer than that
> from vaccination. You certainly can't call it "immunization".
>
> From https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1

Had russ... dared to ask unjabbed nurses, or any other larger mixed
teams, about how well or unwell their jabbed colleagues are reporting to
be, versus who is carrying the workload, he would have gotten some
disturbing answers.

I do admire your patience with someone who had the nerve to grossly
disrespect the Mirror, a comparatively benign London foreign affairs
periodical:->, but himself links to supposed "fact-checkers" in
tyrannically disgraced Australia who, in late October 2021, among their
typical picking up of inaccuracies and subsequent drawing of hyperboles
around straymen, inform us that one (1) guy within an unspecified Amish
community had died when they let the new virus rip through in 2020.
I'll pass on guessing the person's unmentioned age, BMI, or comorbidities.

--
DAVOS MAN fits the definition of megalomania and has acquired what he
believes are sufficient financial and political resources to try to
force his obsession and grand schemes on the world, and to force you,
your family, and the world to comply with his vision and belief systems.

On 5/20/2022 10:40 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 22:30:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 9:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>
>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>
>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>
>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>
>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>
>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>> running for the border in terror.
>>
>> I do know one guy who literally ran to the border, IOW fled to Canada. I
>> also know several guys who were in battle in Viet Nam and are
>> significantly worse for it.
>>
>> But as I recall, the bulk of the outrage against the war was not merely
>> "I might get shot." There was at least as much "We shouldn't be doing
>> this to those people." Right or wrong, I remember protesters shouting
>> about "baby killers" and counter-protesters talking about wiping out
>> villages to save them.
>>
>> And as I recall, they had an election. We didn't like the results. That
>> was important in our so-called strategy.
>>
>> But I'm open to correction on all the above. It's not high in my
>> consciousness these days.
>
> Well, from the Vietnam point of view it basically started with Uncle
> Ho kicking the French out of the country. Then the UN sponsored a
> scheme where after a few years time an election would be held to see
> whether the country should be united under the Northerners or the
> Southerners. Or in very basic terms, Uncle Ho, or the other guy, and
> Uncle Ho was viewed by the majority of the population as the George
> Washington of Vietnam..
>
> Of course, the U.S. couldn't be happy with that situation and so we
> underwrote a fanatical Christian "President" who gave land to the
> Church while in the North Uncle Ho gave land to the peasants.
>
> A question I was asked, more then once, by Vietnamese was "Why does a
> big rich country like the U.S. want to invade a little country like
> Vietnam?" When you replied, "To fight Communism" they looked puzzled.
> After all, life under communism couldn't be worse then life under the
> French (who the U.S. had supported)
>

There are many ways to view the era. One one hand Diem and
his brother were reasonably competent administrators (not
perfect) but on the other, Uncle Ho & the brilliant Gen Gap
moved artillery, shells, supplies and equipment through
jungle mountains for the siege of Dien Bien Phu with a
massive amount of slave labor (or corvee at best).

An understated aspect is the propaganda war both on teh
communist side but not insignificantly the fellow travelers
among us. Several US administrations didn't realize there
was a propaganda war until it had been lost. The best
example among hundreds is Khe San (I know a man who fought
there) in which our Marines not only repelled the attacks
but counterattacked successfully and brilliantly. This was
described as a defeat in US papers at the time.

There are no snappy simple analyses for Vietnam from the
Japanese occupation through to the end of the Vietnam China
war 40 years later. That said much of what people here
'know' is just plain wrong.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:44:04 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>
> >>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>
> >>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>
> >>>>>> She had
> >>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>
> >>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>
> >>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>
> >>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>
> >>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>
> >>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>
> >>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>> no vaccine available.
> >>>
> >>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>> until july.
> >>>
> >>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>> will not take a booster.
> >>>
> >>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>
> >>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>
> >>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>
> >>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>> we got here:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>
> >>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>
> >>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>
> >>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>
> >>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>> approach to covid:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>
> >>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>
> >> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >> unknowable now.
> >>
> >> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>
> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>
> >> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>
> >> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>
> >
> > Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >
> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>
> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> unhelpful.
>
> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> written by at least some of the same people.

Medical professionals have discovered that the mRNA vaccine gets into the DNA of the liver causing covid-19 spike proteins to be manufactured in the liver. Now there is this "strange, inexplicable, outbreak of hepatitis among young children that have been vaccinated." There hasn't been a single case of anyone under 50 and in normal health dying from civid-19 and they are vaccinating everyone in the entire world with a vaccine that has never gone through normal safety testing. In the animal tests early before they were given the word that they didn't have to worry about vaccine safety every one of the animals died. Of course you can look up the "fact checkers" who say that this was false. You know, the same fact checkers like John who claim that Pfizer vaccine didn't have over a thousand deaths from their vaccine which they were forced to admit before a Congressional Committee? Fact checkers who are so experienced in medical science that they don't give one shit about what they say.

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:40:44 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>
> >>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>
> >>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>
> >> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >> unhelpful.
> >>
> >> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >> written by at least some of the same people.
> >
> > BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >
> > Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> > over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> > military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> > reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> > through education and protective "devices".
> >
> > Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> > like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> > their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >
> > And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> > the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >
> > As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >
> > Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> > deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> > Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> > you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> > running for the border in terror.
> >
> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> much smaller than the mythic version.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:40:24 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Radey Shouman wrote:
> > "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/no-the-amish-arent-free-from-covid-and-other-diseases/
> >> There were other stories about the Amish achieving herd immunity due
> >> to everyone getting Covid. And recovering I guess. But the
> >> scientists say the immunity from being infected wears off fairly
> >> quickly, unlike with immunization. So I would say the Amish did no
> >> better than the USA overall for Covid. Maybe worse. And the USA was
> >> the worst country in the whole world for fighting Covid. So being
> >> equal to the worst is not a plan I would advocate.
> russ... can rest assured that the Amish will never bother to ask any
> materialistic Englisch fool's advice on their spirituality,
> demographics, or sense of politics.
> > I believe the opposite is true, natural immunity lasts longer than that
> > from vaccination. You certainly can't call it "immunization".
> >
> > From https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1
> Had russ... dared to ask unjabbed nurses, or any other larger mixed
> teams, about how well or unwell their jabbed colleagues are reporting to
> be, versus who is carrying the workload, he would have gotten some
> disturbing answers.
>
> I do admire your patience with someone who had the nerve to grossly
> disrespect the Mirror, a comparatively benign London foreign affairs
> periodical:->, but himself links to supposed "fact-checkers" in
> tyrannically disgraced Australia who, in late October 2021, among their
> typical picking up of inaccuracies and subsequent drawing of hyperboles
> around straymen, inform us that one (1) guy within an unspecified Amish
> community had died when they let the new virus rip through in 2020.
> I'll pass on guessing the person's unmentioned age, BMI, or comorbidities..
>
>
> --
> DAVOS MAN fits the definition of megalomania and has acquired what he
> believes are sufficient financial and political resources to try to
> force his obsession and grand schemes on the world, and to force you,
> your family, and the world to comply with his vision and belief systems.

16,000 scientists, most of them vaccine specialists or those actually attending covid-19 patients signed a petition saying that a lock-down and masks was not only contra-indicated but stupid. Why do you suppose that the Slime Stream Media never mentioned that? Today in Oakland and Fremont school districts, they are again demanding young children wear masks and learn that you can be any sex you wish. People are filling private schools faster than they can be opened. So strongly is this being opposed that there are even scams about private schools and city councils attempting to make private schools illegal. November cannot get here fast enough.

On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>
>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>
>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>
>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>
>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>
>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>
>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>
>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>
>>
>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>
> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> "in service newspaper").
>
> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> as illegal immigrants.
>
> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>
> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:40:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>
> >>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>
> >>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>
> >>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>
> >>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>
> >>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>
> >>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >
> > Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> > military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> > across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> > "in service newspaper").
> >
> > By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> > Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> > as illegal immigrants.
> >
> > But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> > excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> > the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> > those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> > in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> > engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> > 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >
> > So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> > be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> > fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >
> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> first engagement.

On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".

To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.

Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
residents that are opposed to using protective devices.

Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid and
believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:23:30 AM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:44:04 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > >>>
> > >>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> > >>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> > >>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> > >>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> > >>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> > >>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> > >>>
> > >>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> > >>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> > >>> the rest of us to "take it".
> > >>>
> > >>>>>> She had
> > >>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> > >>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> > >>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> > >>>> those terms specifically?
> > >>>
> > >>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> > >>>
> > >>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> > >>>
> > >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> > >>>
> > >>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> > >>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> > >>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> > >>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> > >>>
> > >>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> > >>>
> > >>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> > >>> no vaccine available.
> > >>>
> > >>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> > >>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> > >>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> > >>>> until july.
> > >>>
> > >>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> > >>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> > >>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> > >>> will not take a booster.
> > >>>
> > >>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> > >>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> > >>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> > >>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> > >>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> > >>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> > >>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> > >>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> > >>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> > >>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> > >>>
> > >>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> > >>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> > >>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> > >>> wasn't scary enough.
> > >>>
> > >>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> > >>> we got here:
> > >>>
> > >>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> > >>>
> > >>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> > >>> for eradicating smallpox:
> > >>>
> > >>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> > >>>
> > >>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> > >>>
> > >>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> > >>> approach to covid:
> > >>>
> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> > >>>
> > >>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> > >>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> > >>>
> > >> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> > >> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> > >> unknowable now.
> > >>
> > >> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> > >>
> > >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> > >>
> > >> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> > >>
> > >> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >
> > >
> > > Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> > >
> > Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> > the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> > doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> > doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >
> > I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> > infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> > zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> > unhelpful.
> >
> > I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> > CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> > time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> > years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> > medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> > death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> > hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> > pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> > effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> > countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> > treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> > written by at least some of the same people.
> Medical professionals have discovered that the mRNA vaccine gets into the DNA of the liver causing covid-19 spike proteins to be manufactured in the liver. Now there is this "strange, inexplicable, outbreak of hepatitis among young children that have been vaccinated." There hasn't been a single case of anyone under 50 and in normal health dying from civid-19

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:29:57 AM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:40:44 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> > >>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> > >>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> > >>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> > >>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> > >>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> > >>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> > >>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> She had
> > >>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> > >>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> > >>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> > >>>>>> those terms specifically?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> > >>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> > >>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> > >>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> > >>>>> no vaccine available.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> > >>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> > >>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> > >>>>>> until july.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> > >>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> > >>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> > >>>>> will not take a booster.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> > >>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> > >>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> > >>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> > >>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> > >>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> > >>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> > >>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> > >>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> > >>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> > >>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> > >>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> > >>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> > >>>>> we got here:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> > >>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> > >>>>> approach to covid:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> > >>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> > >>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> > >>>> unknowable now.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> > >> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> > >> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> > >> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> > >>
> > >> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> > >> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> > >> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> > >> unhelpful.
> > >>
> > >> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> > >> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> > >> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> > >> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> > >> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> > >> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> > >> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> > >> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> > >> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> > >> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> > >> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> > >> written by at least some of the same people.
> > >
> > > BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> > >
> > > Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> > > over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> > > military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> > > reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> > > through education and protective "devices".
> > >
> > > Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> > > like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> > > their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> > >
> > > And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> > > the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> > >
> > > As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> > >
> > > Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> > > deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> > > Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> > > you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> > > running for the border in terror.
> > >
> > The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> > much smaller than the mythic version.
> Your chances of being drafted were pretty small and then the chances of being sent to Vietnam were also small. If you wanted to avoid that all you had to do was join the Navy for 4 years.
>

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:40:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> >>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> >>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> >>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> >>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> >>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> >>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> >>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> She had
> >>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> >>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> >>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> >>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> >>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> >>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> >>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> >>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> >>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> >>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> >>>>>>>> until july.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> >>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> >>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> >>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> >>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> >>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> >>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> >>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> >>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> >>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> >>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> >>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> >>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> >>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
> >>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> >>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> >>>>>>> we got here:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> >>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> >>>>>>> approach to covid:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> >>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> >>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> >>>>>> unknowable now.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> >>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> >>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> >>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> >>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> >>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> >>>> unhelpful.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> >>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> >>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> >>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> >>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> >>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> >>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> >>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> >>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> >>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> >>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> >>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> >>>
> >>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> >>>
> >>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> >>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> >>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> >>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> >>> through education and protective "devices".
> >>>
> >>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> >>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> >>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> >>>
> >>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> >>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> >>>
> >>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> >>>
> >>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> >>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> >>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> >>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> >>> running for the border in terror.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> >> much smaller than the mythic version.
> >
> > Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> > military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> > across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> > "in service newspaper").
> >
> > By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> > Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> > as illegal immigrants.
> >
> > But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> > excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> > the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> > those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> > in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> > engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> > 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> >
> > So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> > be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> > fought. When will we be building a monument?
> >
> Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> first engagement.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:07:16 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>
>To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
>requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
>vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>
>Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
>make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
>residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
>

Likely true but just as in may other areas the "antics of the few" are
loudly reported and thus the impression is that they are a majority,
or at least a meaningful number.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:07:21 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> > like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> > their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>
> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.

Tiny minority?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election
74,216,154 votes, 46.9%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_French_presidential_election
13,288,686 votes, 41.4%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election

>
> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid and
> believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 1:33:47 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:40:47 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
> > >>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
> > >>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
> > >>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
> > >>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
> > >>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
> > >>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
> > >>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> She had
> > >>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
> > >>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
> > >>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
> > >>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
> > >>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
> > >>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
> > >>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
> > >>>>>>> no vaccine available.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
> > >>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
> > >>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
> > >>>>>>>> until july.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
> > >>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
> > >>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
> > >>>>>>> will not take a booster.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
> > >>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
> > >>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
> > >>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
> > >>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
> > >>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
> > >>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
> > >>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
> > >>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
> > >>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
> > >>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration.. 2009
> > >>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
> > >>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
> > >>>>>>> we got here:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
> > >>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
> > >>>>>>> approach to covid:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
> > >>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
> > >>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
> > >>>>>> unknowable now.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter.. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
> > >>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
> > >>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
> > >>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
> > >>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
> > >>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
> > >>>> unhelpful.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
> > >>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
> > >>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
> > >>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
> > >>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
> > >>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
> > >>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
> > >>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
> > >>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
> > >>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
> > >>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
> > >>>> written by at least some of the same people.
> > >>>
> > >>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
> > >>>
> > >>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
> > >>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
> > >>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
> > >>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
> > >>> through education and protective "devices".
> > >>>
> > >>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
> > >>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
> > >>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
> > >>>
> > >>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
> > >>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
> > >>>
> > >>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
> > >>>
> > >>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
> > >>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
> > >>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
> > >>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
> > >>> running for the border in terror.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
> > >> much smaller than the mythic version.
> > >
> > > Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
> > > military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
> > > across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
> > > "in service newspaper").
> > >
> > > By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
> > > Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
> > > as illegal immigrants.
> > >
> > > But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
> > > excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
> > > the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
> > > those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
> > > in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
> > > engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
> > > 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
> > >
> > > So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
> > > be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
> > > fought. When will we be building a monument?
> > >
> > Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
> > first engagement.
> There is really something else going on - the Internet has ceased to be a place of public discourse and factual evidence and instead something containing so many purposeful lies that it is effectively useless.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:

> On 5/20/2022 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>
> To be fair, you have a few, very vocal, crazies, protesting the
> requirement to wear masks in public, and spreading fake news about
> vaccines and the number of Covid deaths.
>
> Don't let the antics of a few uneducated, far-right, Trump supporters
> make you believe that it's anything more than a tiny minority of U.S.
> residents that are opposed to using protective devices.
>
> Even then, they aren't really opposed to masks, it's part of a culture
> war: "highly-educated, highly-qualified, medical professionals are
> explaining the benefits of masks, but we have a _right_ to be stupid
> and believe Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis."

They're not really opposed to masks? I think a lot of people really
don't like wearing masks, particularly for eight or more hours a day.
I'm sure people don't like having to make their two year old children
wear masks on long airplane flights. You can argue that their
understanding of the facts is wrong, but saying that large numbers are
lying about perfectly reasonable preferences just seems off.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 08:24:35 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 10:40 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 22:30:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 9:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>
>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>
>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>
>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>
>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>
>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>
>>> I do know one guy who literally ran to the border, IOW fled to Canada. I
>>> also know several guys who were in battle in Viet Nam and are
>>> significantly worse for it.
>>>
>>> But as I recall, the bulk of the outrage against the war was not merely
>>> "I might get shot." There was at least as much "We shouldn't be doing
>>> this to those people." Right or wrong, I remember protesters shouting
>>> about "baby killers" and counter-protesters talking about wiping out
>>> villages to save them.
>>>
>>> And as I recall, they had an election. We didn't like the results. That
>>> was important in our so-called strategy.
>>>
>>> But I'm open to correction on all the above. It's not high in my
>>> consciousness these days.
>>
>> Well, from the Vietnam point of view it basically started with Uncle
>> Ho kicking the French out of the country. Then the UN sponsored a
>> scheme where after a few years time an election would be held to see
>> whether the country should be united under the Northerners or the
>> Southerners. Or in very basic terms, Uncle Ho, or the other guy, and
>> Uncle Ho was viewed by the majority of the population as the George
>> Washington of Vietnam..
>>
>> Of course, the U.S. couldn't be happy with that situation and so we
>> underwrote a fanatical Christian "President" who gave land to the
>> Church while in the North Uncle Ho gave land to the peasants.
>>
>> A question I was asked, more then once, by Vietnamese was "Why does a
>> big rich country like the U.S. want to invade a little country like
>> Vietnam?" When you replied, "To fight Communism" they looked puzzled.
>> After all, life under communism couldn't be worse then life under the
>> French (who the U.S. had supported)
>>
>
>There are many ways to view the era. One one hand Diem and
>his brother were reasonably competent administrators (not
>perfect) but on the other, Uncle Ho & the brilliant Gen Gap
>moved artillery, shells, supplies and equipment through
>jungle mountains for the siege of Dien Bien Phu with a
>massive amount of slave labor (or corvee at best).

I'm not sure what you mean by "reasonably competent administrators".
Do you mean giving large plots of land to the Catholic Church?
Catholics made up about 7% of the population. Or publicly stating that
only Catholic officers could be trusted. And, not only ignoring some
90% of the population but actually enacting rules that penalized them
for their religion?

The Coup was not wholly a grab for power by some generals, it was
largely motivated by the fact that the government was, effectually, a
disaster and certainly the U.S. government wanted Diem gone.

Re the "corvee" I have no idea other then that the Viets claimed an
army of 40 - 50,000 men while the French had (I believe) 13,000. But
if it was forced labor, the Corvee, is that so different then the
"Draft", i.e. Conscription, in the U.S. which dates from 1775? Or even
earlier as, for example, the Connecticut's 1650 code contains one of
the clearest expressions of the duty to own a gun. And to serve in the
Militia.

>An understated aspect is the propaganda war both on teh
>communist side but not insignificantly the fellow travelers
>among us. Several US administrations didn't realize there
>was a propaganda war until it had been lost. The best
>example among hundreds is Khe San (I know a man who fought
>there) in which our Marines not only repelled the attacks
>but counterattacked successfully and brilliantly. This was
>described as a defeat in US papers at the time.

Khe San? Well, the VC attacked, the US defended. The US mounted a
relief column. The U.S. claim victory. The U.S. withdraw from the area
leaving it in the hands of the VC. Rather a matter of who won the
battle and who won the war.

>There are no snappy simple analyses for Vietnam from the
>Japanese occupation through to the end of the Vietnam China
>war 40 years later. That said much of what people here
>'know' is just plain wrong.

A false argument at best. It was quite obvious what was going on, and
who was doing what to who (whom?).

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/20/2022 11:14 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 21:40:38 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 8:55 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 17:43:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 4:59 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:12:10 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:36 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkma...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 11:50 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I remember Kamala Harris during the vice presidential debates saying
>>>>>>>>>>> that she would be very reluctant to take a "Trump vaccine", which was
>>>>>>>>>>> being developed in an awful hurry without adequate safeguards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What she _actually_ said during the debate was, “If the public health
>>>>>>>>> professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should
>>>>>>>>> take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if
>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.â€
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I looked at the transcript, and it is indeed not exactly as remembered.
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, had Trump won, he certainly would have told her and
>>>>>>>> the rest of us to "take it".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> She had
>>>>>>>>>>> a point there, but somehow after the vaccines rolled out right *after*
>>>>>>>>>>> the election, they became "Biden vaccines",
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I must have missed the press releases naming the vaccines "trump" and
>>>>>>>>> "biden". Would you have a link to a credible news source that notes
>>>>>>>>> those terms specifically?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those are my terms. I think they fit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might enjoy this editorial from the NY Times, Sept 2020:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-trump.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It discusses the Gerald Ford vaccine, for swine flu, that was withdrawn
>>>>>>>> after causing a few cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, and compares it to
>>>>>>>> Trump's operation warp speed. They make some good points, but after the
>>>>>>>> election nothing like this was visible in the mainstream press.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> @WhiteHouse tweeted on 12 May 2022, 2:45 PM:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When President Biden took office, millions were unemployed and there was
>>>>>>>> no vaccine available.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure sounds like they're trying to make it the Biden vaccine to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and every Democrat jumped on
>>>>>>>>>>> the bandwagon to not only take the experimental vaccine, but to try to
>>>>>>>>>>> force everyone everywhere to take it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hyperbole won't do you any favors. I was extremely hesitant. I waited
>>>>>>>>> until july.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You waited longer than I did. I don't think I would do it again, although
>>>>>>>> nothing unusually bad has happened to me. My tinnitus is a lot worse,
>>>>>>>> but it's hard to say if that's vaccine related or not. I have not and
>>>>>>>> will not take a booster.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The complete revision of ideas about respiratory pandemic handling happened
>>>>>>>>>>> during the *last two years*. That was not due to an increase in
>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge or wisdom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that's a completely ridiculous assertion. The Obama administration
>>>>>>>>> implemented policies and created positions to manage pandemics, even
>>>>>>>>> going so far as to embed a CDC advisor called "resident adviser to the
>>>>>>>>> U.S. Field Epidemiology Training Program in China" in the Chinese
>>>>>>>>> CDC. As soon as trump took office he went to work dismantling Obamas
>>>>>>>>> pandemic response team and recalled the CDC advisor. If anything, the
>>>>>>>>> trump administration dumbed down and ignored what had been learned
>>>>>>>>> since the H1N1 outbreak in 2009.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-how-donald-trump-walked-the-u-s-into-the-covid-19-era/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2 years is an overstatement, reflecting only the facts on the ground.
>>>>>>>> The actual plans go back to Bush the younger's admininistration. 2009
>>>>>>>> saw an abortive attempt to put the new plans into practice, but it just
>>>>>>>> wasn't scary enough.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I recommend this article for some history on pandemic planning and how
>>>>>>>> we got here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.aier.org/article/the-2006-origins-of-the-lockdown-idea/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Particularly the linked paper by D A Henderson, the guy most responsible
>>>>>>>> for eradicating smallpox:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know, Frank will say he's a winger. Whatever.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those of you who have read all the way here, a lagniappe, the Amish
>>>>>>>> approach to covid:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DgWYdukZU
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Amish make the Swedes look like a nation of Chicken Littles, but
>>>>>>>> they don't seem to have any regrets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much is unknown and given the political spin on statistical
>>>>>>> gathering and analysis (in various countries) probably
>>>>>>> unknowable now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see that Portugal has among the highest rates of mRNA shots:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1196071/covid-19-vaccination-rate-in-europe-by-country/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and also among the highest rate of reinfections. hmmm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, reinfections. But getting reinfected is not that bad. You stay home from work one day and feel tired for awhile. Then you are good to go again. With no hospital stay in the ICU and no breathing tube and no death. So minimal to no harm being reinfected. Not many people have said the vaccine will prevent ALL infections. The vaccine just almost minimizes death and makes infections somewhat immaterial. Kind of like a pitcher and batter. He is throwing a fastball at 90 mph. It can hit you in the thigh, and leave a bruise. Or it can hit you in the head and leave you brain damaged. Seems to me getting the vaccine and getting hit in the thigh is better than not getting the vaccine and getting hit in the head. And yes the pitch/virus does not hit everyone. Sometimes the pitcher throws and you dive on the ground and the ball/virus goes over your head and misses you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again, in direct conflict with the modern meaning of
>>>>> the term 'vaccine' until two years ago, the mRNA shot
>>>>> doesn't prevent reinfection or much more significantly,
>>>>> doesn't keep that person from spreading it to others.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that lower death rates for second/ third/ fourth
>>>>> infections is a good thing. Then again it's 'lower' not
>>>>> zero. Continued contraction and continuing contagion are
>>>>> unhelpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to once more toss in the shameful history of AIDS and
>>>>> CDC under Drs Gallo and Fauci. Great resources in money,
>>>>> time and effort were pissed away on vaccine research for 35
>>>>> years or so with no result. Early advocates of traditional
>>>>> medical method- develop/discover therapeutics to prevent
>>>>> death and improve health of the infected- were shouted down,
>>>>> hounded, belittled. Yet here we are today where those evil
>>>>> pharmaceutical organizations supply many and various
>>>>> effective therapies such that even the poor in undeveloped
>>>>> countries live out their lives for pennies per week of
>>>>> treatment. Sound familiar? It's the same playbook and
>>>>> written by at least some of the same people.
>>>>
>>>> BUT... what is the alternate? Just ignore it and hope it goes away?
>>>>
>>>> Ignoring the Covid and looking at HIV only, Thailand had a HIV rate of
>>>> over 2% among pregnant women and over 4% among Thai
>>>> military recruits. Without the use of a vaccine the rates have been
>>>> reduced to 0.6% in pregnant women and military recruits. Largely
>>>> through education and protective "devices".
>>>>
>>>> Yet when, in the U.S., Medics suggest the use of proactive devices,
>>>> like masks, for the Covid, people are leaping up and down, waving
>>>> their arms and shouting, "NO", "NO", "NO".
>>>>
>>>> And yet, of the larger countries, say 250 million or larger population
>>>> the U.S. is leading the pack in total cases and total deaths.
>>>>
>>>> As for calculating normal deaths and excess deaths and so on?
>>>>
>>>> Well, during the 20 years of the Vietnam war where the total combat
>>>> deaths were a paltry 47,434 compared with the over today's 1 million
>>>> Covid deaths, nobody was shouting, "OH! Never mind it is only a few if
>>>> you calculate the usual/normal/whatever death rates. No, you were
>>>> running for the border in terror.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The numbers of people who emigrated to avoid the draft were
>>> much smaller than the mythic version.
>>
>> Yes, I'm sure that you are correct. I am voicing what the professional
>> military believed, or was told. Stories of the "cowards" streaming
>> across the border were printed in the Air Force Times (the Air Force
>> "in service newspaper").
>>
>> By the way, from all I read after it was all over they didn't
>> Immigrate, they simply crossed the border and lived there. Technically
>> as illegal immigrants.
>>
>> But you ignore my point, while people stand around yammering about
>> excess deaths and old folk dying in an attempt to somehow de-demonize
>> the Coved, this isn't done in wartime. Nope we build monuments to
>> those who died in"the war". But to date, from the records I see, that
>> in all the wars, invasions, military intrusions, etc., the U.S. has
>> engaged in from 1775 to 2019 deaths in combat amounted to about
>> 666,441. While Covid deaths, from 2020 to 2022 amounted to 1,028,741.
>>
>> So, one might (with out rationalizing) say that the Covid is/was/may
>> be a greater killer by a factor of 1.5 then all the wars the U.S. has
>> fought. When will we be building a monument?
>>
>
>Monuments come after we defeat china. This virus is merely a
>first engagement.