On 5/26/2022 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> And yes, I did read about the school shooting in Texas - 22 deaths I
> believe. But on the same date there were over 300 Covid deaths.
>
> Not to, in any manner diminish the horror of school shootings but is
> it deaths that are being counted or deaths solely by those demon guns?

John, care to write a letter to each child's parents and explain to them
that what happened wasn't really so bad?

Let us know what you say and how that goes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 12:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/25/2022 10:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2022 8:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:45:22 PM UTC-4,
> >>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:23:27 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I would be happy to pay more taxes. I rarely vote
> >>>>> against a tax increase. As it
> >>>>> is, I make large donations every year to various
> >>>>> agencies. I can afford more taxes.
> >>>> Careful what you wish for, you might actually get it. If
> >>>> by the
> >>>> miracle of creative accounting and inflation, your state
> >>>> generates a
> >>>> surplus, it's likely that your taxes will continue to
> >>>> increase and
> >>>> spent on the governors favorite projects:
> >>>>
> >>>> "With California budget surplus projected at $97
> >>>> billion, Newsom
> >>>> proposes driver rebates, more reproductive health funding"
> >>>> <https://www.capradio.org/articles/2022/05/13/newsom-california-budget-proposal-may-2022/>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Why he wants to send rebates only to drivers instead of
> >>>> tax credits to
> >>>> all California taxpayers is unknown.
> >>>
> >>> And I certainly don't approve of all government spending
> >>> projects. Nobody ever will; there will
> >>> always be disagreement.
> >>>
> >>> But the fact is, some tax revenue will always be
> >>> necessary. The mega-rich should pay more than
> >>> they do now.
> >>>
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> You're quite cavalier about someone else's earnings where,
> >> "The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual
> >> income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent
> >> combined (29.9 percent)."
> >>
> >> https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/
> >
> >
> > As Russell has demonstrated, that's a minimal difference in
> > taxes levied on an enormous difference in income, not to
> > mention wealth.
> >
> > American society is structured to give heavy advantages to
> > the super wealthy. This is one of the roots of our national
> > problems and national discontent and unrest. Countries with
> > less financial disparity are healthier, less crime-ridden,
> > more pleasant, more content.
> >
> > It takes money to run a civilization. Those with excess
> > money should pay more. Those with grossly excess money
> > should pay much, much more.
> >
> > But they've recruited even many middle class or lower class
> > right-wingers to argue in their favor. What a wonderful scam!
> >
> >
> Hey I resemble that remark. As a taxpayer, I resent the
> half of USAians who don't pay any FIT as much as I do the
> politicians pocketing envelopes of tax free cash and the
> crooked contractors who pay it.
>
> But that's our system, a mess of bad incentives whishful
> thinking, willful ignorance and outright propaganda. People
> bitch (yep that's us) but nothing changes.

I see that Frank cannot keep himself from communist propaganda.When he takes lies for truyth, that is part of his plan. NO Billionaire pays zero taxes as he could have you believe. The BEST they can do is reduce their RATE of taxation down to the level of that of the normal man. Using the BEST tax firms when I was making over$200,000/yr I STILL paid 50% of my income to Uncle Sam and California. Frank's entire life is built on a fabric of lies which he believes implicitly.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:48:09 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 1:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/25/2022 11:27 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 25 May 2022 20:18:55 -0500, AMuzi
> >> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 5/25/2022 8:05 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:44:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Much Deleted --------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You should get out more. Or at least read the news in
> >>>>>> the morning.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/richest-men-world-lost-ton-090000527.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/rich-getting-poorer-billionaires-losing-1-trillion-this-year-bloomberg-2022-5?op=1
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/crypto-billionaires-see-wealth-eroded-with-this-week-s-market-crash-1031453962?op=1
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://nypost.com/2022/05/12/crypto-billionaires-losing-fortunes-as-bitcoin-tumbles/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I won't comment on cryptocurrency gambling. To me, it's
> >>>>> in the same
> >>>>> category as buying baseball cards or Hummel figurines.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But to respond to the first article: Musk down to only
> >>>>> $200 billion!
> >>>>> Bezos only $131 billion! Zuckerberg only $71 billion!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Markets go up and markets go down. But the income and
> >>>>> wealth disparity
> >>>>> in the U.S. goes up and up and up. Don't pretend
> >>>>> otherwise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And no, that degree of income and wealth disparity is
> >>>>> not just fine. It
> >>>>> hurts society in countless ways.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, yes, "income disparity"... the difference between
> >>>> your wealth
> >>>> and Tommy's, for example. So you will be sending Tom a
> >>>> weekly?
> >>>> monthly? check to make his "income" equal yours?
> >>>>
> >>>> No? The other guy should pay? Them over there? The
> >>>> government should
> >>>> do it?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'd much rather live in a society which produces the
> >>> occasional Michael Dell or Steve Jobs or Larry Ellison than
> >>> a culture which built MiniTel. Or one with no innovation to
> >>> speak of.
> >>
> >> I think there is sufficient proof that Franks theory
> >> "income parity"
> >> for all doesn't work. In fact, if anything it stifles
> >> progress. Would,
> >> for example, the automobile industry be what it is today
> >> if Ford
> >> hadn't come up with the scheme to pay his workers more...
> >> so they
> >> could afford to buy a Ford?
> >
> > That's exactly backwards logic! Ford's decision _reduced_
> > income disparity, and it worked.
> >
> Some people get credit for that, some don't:
>
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-families-idUSKBN26J2LZ

Comments like Frank's area always shocking to me. His idea that there is a finite amount of wealth in the world and that someone making more of needs means someone making less shows a level of ignorance so large that it proves this man NEVER recieved an education. That idea is entirely opposed by the fact of economic growth so that only a fool could believe such a travesty

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:38:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 8:32 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:20:37 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 14:05:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 5/26/2022 8:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 5/26/2022 5:13 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:17:53 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/25/2022 5:06 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My point was - If one wants a functioning society (where one can
> >>>>>>> become rich through a combination of sweat, ingenuity, and luck),
> >>>>>>> there is a price to pay. For the richest to avoid taxes - legally or
> >>>>>>> not - is akin to "making everyone else pay for it".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'Taxes' is a very large set of income streams (to the
> >>>>>> Leviathan) or expense (to us). No one 'avoids taxes'
> >>>>>> generally. No one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ok, for the richest to avoid _income_ taxes - legally or not - is akin
> >>>>> to "making everyone else pay for it".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Better?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That's correct. Taxpayers don't write the rules.
> >>>>
> >>>> But don't cry, write your Congressman. The framers' original idea (fixed
> >>>> amount per person) would suit me nicely. YMMV
> >>>
> >>> Sure, write your congressman. Your letter will go in one pile. The
> >>> multi-thousand dollar re-election donation from your town's wealthiest
> >>> resident will go in another pile. Guess which pile gets thrown away?
> >>>
> >>> When the chance comes, elect a different congressman.
> >> But Frank, you live in a democracy... and the U.S. runs about, all
> >> over the world, telling people that a "democracy" is the only way to
> >> live!
> >>
> >> Are you now saying that it isn't?
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > John, for some reason you are not distinguishing the different levels, quality of democracies. Same with dictators. The Vatican is a country. And the Pope is the dictator. But everyone seems to get along OK inside the Vatican. So not all dictators are bad it seems. Despite the USA portraying all dictators as evil. England, South Korea, Japan, the Nordic countries, Netherlands, Portugal, and maybe a few more. They all seem to run their democracies better than the USA. And as I am sure you know. The USA is not a democracy. It is a constitutional federal republic. There are no democratically elected federal officers. The only democracy happens at the state/republic level.
> >
> uh, pontiffs are 'elected' as much as anyone could be (with
> the usual sub rosa influences of course).

Russell know absolutely nothing about the Catholic Church but is willing to comments on it. Maybe we should put him in the same catagory as Slow Johnny. The College of Cardinals is an advisory group of such power that they really run the vatican as Congress does the President should they wish to do so. But Russell in all his ignorance can carry on.

On 5/27/2022 12:21 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/26/2022 8:20 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> But Frank, you live in a democracy... and the U.S. runs about, all
>>> over the world, telling people that a "democracy" is the only way to
>>> live!
>>>
>>> Are you now saying that it isn't?
>>
>> Don't be simplistic, John. All democracies are not equal. The one I live
>> in has great room for improvement. Look at the data!
>
> But I'm not being simplistic. It is a democracy and y'all do run
> around telling people how wonderful "democracy".
>
> But how improvement?

How improvement indeed! Um... whatever that means...

You declined my invitation to look at data for various democracies.
Again, compared to most European democracies, the U.S. has more wealth
and income disparity, more crime, far more murders, incredibly more gun
deaths, more poverty, far worse health care, worse education, more
citizen debt, longer work weeks, fewer vacation days, far more
imprisonment, less general contentment, etc. All democracies are NOT
equal, and I see little evidence that the U.S. system is best of all.

However, that doesn't mean the general concept of democracy is bad. I'll
let you dig out this data, but I suspect that those metrics are worse
for the average dictatorship than for the average democracy. That would
mean that promoting democracy as an alternative to dictatorships does
make sense.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/27/2022 1:10 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:47:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
>> Short version: Circumstances differ widely. I don't believe the poor are
>> typically poor because they are blowing huge wads of money.
>
> Perhaps so, perhaps no. I saved half my salary for the 20 years I
> spent in the Military and sometimes more then half working as a
> civilian. I worked two jobs for quite a few years... not because I had
> to but because I wanted to. I'm not bragging, I was doing what I
> wanted to do, not what I had to do. I used to work weekends in a
> gunsmith shop and evenings I used to build high accuracy "varmint
> rifles"... because I enjoyed it.

It sounds like that was a cross between a job and a hobby.

On one bike tour, I stayed overnight with a nice couple. The guy was a
dedicated cyclist who had been able to take some extended time off his
regular job, and he thought it would be nice to work in a bike shop. But
he was deeply disappointed. As he said, he loved fine bikes, but it was
almost exclusively junk bikes that were brought in for repairs.

I've long thought that the most content people are those who are getting
paid to do what they'd love doing for free. But the alternative strategy
has always been closer to mine. I have dozens of interests (and perhaps
some ADHD?) I enjoy going from project to project, activity to activity,
each one different. That's what happens with my free time since retirement.

> As for the poor, I really don't know. I've only known one really poor
> chap. The welfare had gotten him some sort of free housing for he and
> his wife and a clapped old 2nd hand car to get around in and a job at
> the Gunsmith shop where I was working. I mentioned,something about
> paying attention and learning a trade and he told me straight out that
> he didn't "see no need" as he was getting along "just nice". Making
> minimum salary living in subsidized housing.
>
> I've always wondered how many "poor" are just like that.

And one friend I mentioned is like that. If a person deliberately
chooses that lifestyle, fine. My sense is that a lot of American poor
don't choose their lifestyle; they are effectively boxed into it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/27/2022 11:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I see that Frank cannot keep himself from communist propaganda.When he takes lies for truyth, that is part of his plan.

I do not advocate communism. I never have.

I'm convinced that Tom doesn't even understand the definition of
communism. It's just one of many words he slings around as random insults.

> NO Billionaire pays zero taxes as he could have you believe. The BEST they can do is reduce their RATE of taxation down to the level of that of the normal man. Using the BEST tax firms when I was making over$200,000/yr I STILL paid 50% of my income to Uncle Sam and California. Frank's entire life is built on a fabric of lies which he believes implicitly.

So Tom is still incapable of following links and understanding articles?

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/27/2022 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 1:10 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:47:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Short version: Circumstances differ widely. I don't
>>> believe the poor are
>>> typically poor because they are blowing huge wads of money.
>>
>> Perhaps so, perhaps no. I saved half my salary for the 20
>> years I
>> spent in the Military and sometimes more then half working
>> as a
>> civilian. I worked two jobs for quite a few years... not
>> because I had
>> to but because I wanted to. I'm not bragging, I was doing
>> what I
>> wanted to do, not what I had to do. I used to work
>> weekends in a
>> gunsmith shop and evenings I used to build high accuracy
>> "varmint
>> rifles"... because I enjoyed it.
>
> It sounds like that was a cross between a job and a hobby.
>
> On one bike tour, I stayed overnight with a nice couple. The
> guy was a dedicated cyclist who had been able to take some
> extended time off his regular job, and he thought it would
> be nice to work in a bike shop. But he was deeply
> disappointed. As he said, he loved fine bikes, but it was
> almost exclusively junk bikes that were brought in for repairs.
>
> I've long thought that the most content people are those who
> are getting paid to do what they'd love doing for free. But
> the alternative strategy has always been closer to mine. I
> have dozens of interests (and perhaps some ADHD?) I enjoy
> going from project to project, activity to activity, each
> one different. That's what happens with my free time since
> retirement.
>
>> As for the poor, I really don't know. I've only known one
>> really poor
>> chap. The welfare had gotten him some sort of free housing
>> for he and
>> his wife and a clapped old 2nd hand car to get around in
>> and a job at
>> the Gunsmith shop where I was working. I
>> mentioned,something about
>> paying attention and learning a trade and he told me
>> straight out that
>> he didn't "see no need" as he was getting along "just
>> nice". Making
>> minimum salary living in subsidized housing.
>>
>> I've always wondered how many "poor" are just like that.
>
> And one friend I mentioned is like that. If a person
> deliberately chooses that lifestyle, fine. My sense is that
> a lot of American poor don't choose their lifestyle; they
> are effectively boxed into it.
>
>

I knew a gynecologist who after a long career expressed much
the same change of attitude and taste.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 27 May 2022 11:14:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/26/2022 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> And yes, I did read about the school shooting in Texas - 22 deaths I
>> believe. But on the same date there were over 300 Covid deaths.
>>
>> Not to, in any manner diminish the horror of school shootings but is
>> it deaths that are being counted or deaths solely by those demon guns?
>
>John, care to write a letter to each child's parents and explain to them
>that what happened wasn't really so bad?
>
>Let us know what you say and how that goes.

You seem to missed the part where I wrote "the horror of school
shootings"...

But truly, do you believe that the parents would have been less
unhappy had their child been killed by a speeding car who ran a stop
sign?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:26:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/27/2022 11:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I see that Frank cannot keep himself from communist propaganda.When he takes lies for truyth, that is part of his plan.
>
>I do not advocate communism. I never have.
>
>I'm convinced that Tom doesn't even understand the definition of
>communism. It's just one of many words he slings around as random insults.
>
>> NO Billionaire pays zero taxes as he could have you believe. The BEST they can do is reduce their RATE of taxation down to the level of that of the normal man. Using the BEST tax firms when I was making over$200,000/yr I STILL paid 50% of my income to Uncle Sam and California. Frank's entire life is built on a fabric of lies which he believes implicitly.
>
>So Tom is still incapable of following links and understanding articles?
>
>https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

But Frank, all those rich folks paid the taxed that they were required
to pay under U.S. tax laws. In fact, from my years ago experience with
H&R Block I will bet you that they actually followed the letter of the
law closer then most poor folk.

So they didn't evade, dodge, use whatever derogatory term you choose,
the law.

All this whooping and hollering is just "sour grapes", "I thik they
otta pay more", and in fact they do.
https://www.heritage.org/taxes/commentary/1-chart-how-much-the-rich-pay-taxes
the top 1% pay 40% of the taxes.

But as the U.S. brags to the world.... you live in a democracy. So get
your sign and leap into the streets shouting "They gotta Pay!" and if
you can convince a large enough portion voters then You Can change the
law.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 1:10 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:47:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Short version: Circumstances differ widely. I don't believe the poor are
>>> typically poor because they are blowing huge wads of money.
>>
>> Perhaps so, perhaps no. I saved half my salary for the 20 years I
>> spent in the Military and sometimes more then half working as a
>> civilian. I worked two jobs for quite a few years... not because I had
>> to but because I wanted to. I'm not bragging, I was doing what I
>> wanted to do, not what I had to do. I used to work weekends in a
>> gunsmith shop and evenings I used to build high accuracy "varmint
>> rifles"... because I enjoyed it.
>
> It sounds like that was a cross between a job and a hobby.
>
> On one bike tour, I stayed overnight with a nice couple. The guy was a
> dedicated cyclist who had been able to take some extended time off his
> regular job, and he thought it would be nice to work in a bike shop. But
> he was deeply disappointed. As he said, he loved fine bikes, but it was
> almost exclusively junk bikes that were brought in for repairs.

That was why I quit fixing guitar amps as a sideline. 90% of the stuff that
came in was cheap crap that cost nearly as much to fix as it would to buy a
replacement on the wholesale market.

> I've long thought that the most content people are those who are getting
> paid to do what they'd love doing for free. But the alternative strategy
> has always been closer to mine. I have dozens of interests (and perhaps
> some ADHD?) I enjoy going from project to project, activity to activity,
> each one different. That's what happens with my free time since retirement.
>
>> As for the poor, I really don't know. I've only known one really poor
>> chap. The welfare had gotten him some sort of free housing for he and
>> his wife and a clapped old 2nd hand car to get around in and a job at
>> the Gunsmith shop where I was working. I mentioned,something about
>> paying attention and learning a trade and he told me straight out that
>> he didn't "see no need" as he was getting along "just nice". Making
>> minimum salary living in subsidized housing.
>>
>> I've always wondered how many "poor" are just like that.
>
> And one friend I mentioned is like that. If a person deliberately
> chooses that lifestyle, fine. My sense is that a lot of American poor
> don't choose their lifestyle; they are effectively boxed into it.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:03:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/27/2022 12:21 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/26/2022 8:20 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Frank, you live in a democracy... and the U.S. runs about, all
>>>> over the world, telling people that a "democracy" is the only way to
>>>> live!
>>>>
>>>> Are you now saying that it isn't?
>>>
>>> Don't be simplistic, John. All democracies are not equal. The one I live
>>> in has great room for improvement. Look at the data!
>>
>> But I'm not being simplistic. It is a democracy and y'all do run
>> around telling people how wonderful "democracy".
>>
>> But how improvement?
>
>How improvement indeed! Um... whatever that means...
>
>You declined my invitation to look at data for various democracies.
>Again, compared to most European democracies, the U.S. has more wealth
>and income disparity, more crime, far more murders, incredibly more gun
>deaths, more poverty, far worse health care, worse education, more
>citizen debt, longer work weeks, fewer vacation days, far more
>imprisonment, less general contentment, etc. All democracies are NOT
>equal, and I see little evidence that the U.S. system is best of all.
>
Yes, but Frank, when I pointed out that the U.S. had more crime and
thus likely a more lawless population then Canada you leaped to the
defense of the U.S.

And as for laying the blame for all of the U.S's ills on income
disparity, I think you have your head in the clouds as I've lived in
countries where the disparity between the "haves" and the "have not's"
is far greater then the U.S. and we don't have the awful crimes that
you flaunt.

Thailand, a poor, improvised country has, currently, with the Covid,
some 1.53% unemployment. Before Covid as low as 0.98%. And the U.S.,
the richest country in the world, has (I read) 3.6%.

The murder rate in the U.S. is 6.2/100,000, Thailand 2.6.

The U.S. has something like 7 million undocumented illegal immigrants
working in the country. And some 5.9 million unemployed citizens.
https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/
https://tinyurl.com/3z3e4xdd

The question then is "Are we doing something right" or "are you doing
something wrong"?

>However, that doesn't mean the general concept of democracy is bad. I'll
>let you dig out this data, but I suspect that those metrics are worse
>for the average dictatorship than for the average democracy. That would
>mean that promoting democracy as an alternative to dictatorships does
>make sense.

I really wonder. How much does the average citizen know about world
events, the effects of minimum salary on world trade and the national
economy. And, and, and.

Or right here. Is Tommy the sort that you feel capable of making
decisions for you? He apparently is typical of a growing portion of
the Public. Witness the furor over "illegal votes" or the Washington
riot.

But, to be honest, I do wonder whether any political system is "best".
I've noted that the greatest progress in the world, from a bombed out
rubble to a modern country, the richest in the region, occurred in
Singapore under a government that was, in fact, if not facade, a
dictatorship.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:13:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/27/2022 1:10 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:47:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Short version: Circumstances differ widely. I don't believe the poor are
>>> typically poor because they are blowing huge wads of money.
>>
>> Perhaps so, perhaps no. I saved half my salary for the 20 years I
>> spent in the Military and sometimes more then half working as a
>> civilian. I worked two jobs for quite a few years... not because I had
>> to but because I wanted to. I'm not bragging, I was doing what I
>> wanted to do, not what I had to do. I used to work weekends in a
>> gunsmith shop and evenings I used to build high accuracy "varmint
>> rifles"... because I enjoyed it.
>
>It sounds like that was a cross between a job and a hobby.
Yes, you could say that, although I made money doing it. And a fairish
amount. I was making in the difference between what I had to buy and
what I sold for, in the neighborhood of $100 a rifle. Which was the
better part of a week's pay in those days
>
>On one bike tour, I stayed overnight with a nice couple. The guy was a
>dedicated cyclist who had been able to take some extended time off his
>regular job, and he thought it would be nice to work in a bike shop. But
>he was deeply disappointed. As he said, he loved fine bikes, but it was
>almost exclusively junk bikes that were brought in for repairs.

Well (:-) that makes sense, doesn't it. The good stuff don't break
(:-)

>I've long thought that the most content people are those who are getting
>paid to do what they'd love doing for free. But the alternative strategy
>has always been closer to mine. I have dozens of interests (and perhaps
>some ADHD?) I enjoy going from project to project, activity to activity,
>each one different. That's what happens with my free time since retirement.
>
>> As for the poor, I really don't know. I've only known one really poor
>> chap. The welfare had gotten him some sort of free housing for he and
>> his wife and a clapped old 2nd hand car to get around in and a job at
>> the Gunsmith shop where I was working. I mentioned,something about
>> paying attention and learning a trade and he told me straight out that
>> he didn't "see no need" as he was getting along "just nice". Making
>> minimum salary living in subsidized housing.
>>
>> I've always wondered how many "poor" are just like that.
>
>And one friend I mentioned is like that. If a person deliberately
>chooses that lifestyle, fine. My sense is that a lot of American poor
>don't choose their lifestyle; they are effectively boxed into it.

I truly wonder about "boxed in". I remember talking to a fellow, some
sort of low paid "helper" on Edwards AFB. I knew that a company doing
construction in Vietnam was hiring and their main office was in L.A.
and told the guy he could get a much, much, much, better paying job
with them.
He looked at me in horror, "Go To Vietnam?"

My philosophy has always been "Go for the Gold!" It may be the arse
end of the world but it pays good and the job only last a year.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 6:51:21 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 11:14:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/26/2022 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> And yes, I did read about the school shooting in Texas - 22 deaths I
> >> believe. But on the same date there were over 300 Covid deaths.
> >>
> >> Not to, in any manner diminish the horror of school shootings but is
> >> it deaths that are being counted or deaths solely by those demon guns?
> >
> >John, care to write a letter to each child's parents and explain to them
> >that what happened wasn't really so bad?
> >
> >Let us know what you say and how that goes.
> You seem to missed the part where I wrote "the horror of school
> shootings"...
>
> But truly, do you believe that the parents would have been less
> unhappy had their child been killed by a speeding car who ran a stop
> sign?

Yes. And likewise, all the kids who knew that child would have had far fewer psychological
problems. I just heard a report about the often permanent psychological harm imposed on
children involved in events like this, even if they were not directly assaulted or injured.

How many mass shootings are there in the country where you live? How many kids are
killed by guns annually, on average?

- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 7:14:20 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:26:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>

> >https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
> But Frank, all those rich folks paid the taxed that they were required
> to pay under U.S. tax laws. In fact, from my years ago experience with
> H&R Block I will bet you that they actually followed the letter of the
> law closer then most poor folk.

John, you're having great trouble understanding this: I'm not saying the ultra-rich
are violating tax laws. I'm saying those tax laws are grossly faulty. And they are
faulty largely because of the ultra-rich lobbying and paying to have the laws re-written
in their favor.

American tax laws need to be changed. Write that down and read it over and over until
you understand.

- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 9:05:19 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:03:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >Again, compared to most European democracies, the U.S. has more wealth
> >and income disparity, more crime, far more murders, incredibly more gun
> >deaths, more poverty, far worse health care, worse education, more
> >citizen debt, longer work weeks, fewer vacation days, far more
> >imprisonment, less general contentment, etc. All democracies are NOT
> >equal, and I see little evidence that the U.S. system is best of all.
> >
> Yes, but Frank, when I pointed out that the U.S. had more crime and
> thus likely a more lawless population then Canada you leaped to the
> defense of the U.S.

I did not. You're acting like Tom, arguing against what you wish I'd said. Instead, try
giving an accurate quote and/or link to my actual words.

> And as for laying the blame for all of the U.S's ills on income
> disparity,...

Again, that's not what I've said, especially the "all". However, I do believe income and wealth disparity
are major sources of problems.

> The murder rate in the U.S. is 6.2/100,000, Thailand 2.6.

I don't dispute that at all. Of course, you have no NRA, do you?

> The question then is "Are we doing something right" or "are you doing
> something wrong"?

Think, John! Those conditions are not mutually exclusive!

> Or right here. Is Tommy the sort that you feel capable of making
> decisions for you? He apparently is typical of a growing portion of
> the Public. Witness the furor over "illegal votes" or the Washington
> riot.

If I were allowed to write the qualifications for voting, Tom would not qualify.
I'd demand a certain level of intelligence, and a certain connection to reality.
But admittedly, such standards are very unlikely to be imposed.

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 27 May 2022 20:17:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 6:51:21 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 11:14:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/26/2022 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> And yes, I did read about the school shooting in Texas - 22 deaths I
>> >> believe. But on the same date there were over 300 Covid deaths.
>> >>
>> >> Not to, in any manner diminish the horror of school shootings but is
>> >> it deaths that are being counted or deaths solely by those demon guns?
>> >
>> >John, care to write a letter to each child's parents and explain to them
>> >that what happened wasn't really so bad?
>> >
>> >Let us know what you say and how that goes.
>> You seem to missed the part where I wrote "the horror of school
>> shootings"...
>>
>> But truly, do you believe that the parents would have been less
>> unhappy had their child been killed by a speeding car who ran a stop
>> sign?
>
>Yes. And likewise, all the kids who knew that child would have had far fewer psychological
>problems. I just heard a report about the often permanent psychological harm imposed on
>children involved in events like this, even if they were not directly assaulted or injured.
>
>How many mass shootings are there in the country where you live? How many kids are
>killed by guns annually, on average?
>
>- Frank Krygowski

As I earlier wrote, you seem to be implying that because someone dies
of a gunshot wound it is somehow more traumatic then, oh say, being
run down at a cross walk. Or falling out of a tree, for that matter.

I remember attending the funeral of the father of a girl that my wife
grew up with. The poor old fellow had been "ailing" for years, had
several operations and so on and finally died. The usual ceremonies
were held, prayers chanted for three days and so on and finally the
procession to carry the body to the temple for crimination.

As honored guests we "marched" directly behind the family who were led
by the daughter carrying a large picture of her father. As I could
clearly see, the tears were running down her cheeks and literally
dripping off her chin the more or less half kilometer march to the
temple.

Do you really think she would have been more heart-broken if her
father had been shot?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:10:25 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:47:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/26/2022 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 13:48:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 5/26/2022 6:51 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> But those that live hand to mouth are nearly always simply frittering
> >>>> a portion of it away. When I was making $70 a month I still managed to
> >>>> save half my salary. In fact I've saved a portion of my income ever
> >>>> since I started working.... for my family at 25 cents a week (:-)
> >>>
> >>> Your "portions" are undefined, and are probably hypothetical and/or
> >>> minimal.
> >>
> >> Well, during the 20 years I spent in the Air Force I saved half my
> >> monthly pay. Each month. As a kid I used to save 9 cents out of my 25
> >> cents pay, well for a little while anyway :-) See the Saturday Movie -
> >> two features, news and a "serial" - for 11 cents and 5 cents for
> >> popcorn. What could be finer?
> >>
> >> And after I went to work in Asia I saved, usually, something more then
> >> half my salary. As I mentioned on the last job - building a gas
> >> refinery - I was getting a very fine living allowance and so put my
> >> entire salary into savings.
> >>
> >> I bought my first "stocks", well actually shares in an Investment
> >> Fund, as a 20 year old.
> >>
> >>> There are certainly countless people who spend beyond their means. I
> >>> just finished a conversation with one such neighbor. I'm astonished at
> >>> what she buys, given her finances (which, BTW, are what I'd call middle
> >>> class).
> >>>
> >>> But there are also countless poor people who indulge in only the tiniest
> >>> luxuries. I have a friend like that. You might begrudge his tiny
> >>> luxuries. ("You shouldn't have paid so much for that sandwich! Just eat
> >>> at home!") But to me he should be allowed to live a bit above starvation
> >>> level.
> >>>
> >>> Similarly, a woman I know very well is very intelligent, very well
> >>> educated, an award winning artist of national repute. During the 1990s
> >>> she remarked that she was living on less than $10,000 per year. If she
> >>> chose to, say, buy a theater ticket, I don't think anyone should have
> >>> complained.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know what "portion" of those folks meager incomes are or were
> >>> put aside, just as I don't know the "portion" you bragged about. I'm
> >>> just using them as examples that low income people are not necessarily
> >>> wasting lots of money.
> >>
> >> It isn't a matter of wasting, per se, it is a matter of living within
> >> your means. I read that personal debt, in the U.S., amounted to $14.6
> >> trillion in the spring of 2021, according to the Federal Reserve.
> >> That is $43,624.30 for every man, woman and child in the U.S.
> >>
> >> And it might be noted that when you borrow money you pay for it twice.
> >> Once in the interest you pay for the loan and once for the lost
> >> interest you could have made if you had saved the money. Calculate the
> >> interest on a credit card :-)
> >>
> >> But then, I grew up in a traditional New England family where
> >> borrowing was very much a sin. My father borrowed once in his life,
> >> $1,000 from my mother's father to buy a piece of woodland. He then
> >> chopped down some pine trees had them milled and built the first house
> >> I can remember living in.
> >>
> >> But, poor me. I had no trees to chop down and so was forced to rely on
> >> savings.
> >
> >I certainly agree with the overall philosophy. It matches mine, and my
> >behavior.
> >
> >But ISTM saving may be easy for, say, someone in the military who is
> >provided with housing and food. But those benefits are very uncommon for
> >normal workers. (We have friend in the State Department whose housing is
> >paid for when they are overseas, which is most of the time. Partly
> >because of that, plus things like hazard pay, they are doing very, very
> >well financially.)
> Yes, you are at least partially correct. It is easy when you live in
> the Barracks and eat in the Mess Hall. The technique was on payday as
> soon as you were paid you went straight down to the Base Exchange
> (general store sort of place) and you bought 3 cakes of soap, a tube
> of toothpaste, one canister of shoe polish and 3 cartons of
> cigarettes.
>
> What ever was left you spent that night "down town" and lived happily
> for the rest of the month (:-)
>
> But I got married. Tain't the same (:-)
> >
> >Likewise, I'd expect an engineer for an oil company would get a
> >reasonably high salary, and have difficulty spending it in many low
> >income countries. Hard to spend = easy to save.
> Don't kid yourself. It is just as easy to spend money in a low income
> country as in the U.S. A friend came in one day sporting a gold Rolex
> watch and I asked him, "where'd you steal the watch?" and he told me
> he had bought it from a bloke in a bar who'd been out of work for a
> couple of months.Paid $200.
> >enough to know what he made. It was not exorbitant. But he lived in a
> >student dorm while his family lived in Bangladesh and did absolutely
> >nothing but work. He returned home every semester break. He talked about
> >his immense house and his wife's servants. Me, I always lived frugally,
> >but I couldn't afford servants.
> It used to be that way in Thailand. You moved into a neighborhood and
> mentioned to the maid next door that you might be looking for help and
> next morning when you looked out there'd be a whole line of girls
> squatting on the sidewalk looking for a job.
>
> Today, it is different. "Job as a housemaid?" "Naw, I can get a job
> down the fish packing plant. Only 8 hours a day".
> Unemployment in Thailand, before Covid was in the 1% neighborhood and
> there were an estimated 3 million "guest workers" here.
> >Short version: Circumstances differ widely. I don't believe the poor are
> >typically poor because they are blowing huge wads of money.

John, I think the point Frank is trying to make is the poor do not have a lot of money. They work for minimum wage. Earn a subsistence salary at best. So they cannot have a "huge wads of money" to blow. Because they do not have "huge wads of money". Their money supply is minimal. That is one of the often talked about points of poverty. You cannot get ahead if everything you earn is used up just to maintain subsistence. To invest, or get ahead, or even to start a new business with an idea you have, requires extra money from somewhere. If you never ever have extra, then you remain poor.

Now, I am not saying some of the poor don't keep themselves in poverty with their spending habits. Some, many, waste money on such things as cigarettes, alcohol, lottery tickets, eating out, and other wasteful things. But all of these bad things are still done with minimal amounts of money. A few hundred dollars. Not "huge wads of money".

I am not saying a smart, resourceful, poor person cannot get out of poverty by not wasting a few hundred dollars each month. Save a few hundred dollars each month and after a few years you will have a few extra thousand dollars and then be able to invest or start a profitable endeavor. Yeah. But, if you are making well above minimum wage, then you can probably save a few thousand extra each month, and invest it or start a new endeavor after only a few months. Not after a few years. Big difference.

> Perhaps so, perhaps no. I saved half my salary for the 20 years I
> spent in the Military and sometimes more then half working as a
> civilian. I worked two jobs for quite a few years... not because I had
> to but because I wanted to. I'm not bragging, I was doing what I
> wanted to do, not what I had to do. I used to work weekends in a
> gunsmith shop and evenings I used to build high accuracy "varmint
> rifles"... because I enjoyed it.
>
> As for the poor, I really don't know. I've only known one really poor
> chap. The welfare had gotten him some sort of free housing for he and
> his wife and a clapped old 2nd hand car to get around in and a job at
> the Gunsmith shop where I was working. I mentioned,something about
> paying attention and learning a trade and he told me straight out that
> he didn't "see no need" as he was getting along "just nice". Making
> minimum salary living in subsidized housing.
>
> I've always wondered how many "poor" are just like that.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:01:35 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 21:18:55 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:52:06 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> rOn Thu, 26 May 2022 23:05:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 5/26/2022 10:26 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I firmly believe that the income disparity that Frank rants about is
> >> >> simply human nature. In extremely primitive cultures - people running
> >> >> around naked with a spear - there are "Big Men" who are leaders, have
> >> >> more pigs (symbol of wealth) and more wives to take care of the pigs,
> >> >> then everyone else.
> >> >>
> >> >> In every country I've lived in there have been rich men and poor men
> >> >> and in nearly all cases, noticeably in developing countries, it is due
> >> >> to the individual's own efforts.
> >> >
> >> >The problems I'm noting are certainly connected to human nature, as are
> >> >probably most of the problems we deal with as humans.
> >> >
> >> >Governments exist in part to control the bad effects of human nature.
> >> >Examples: Rape is illegal. Theft is illegal. Murder is illegal.
> >> >
> >> >But there are wide varieties of governments and government regulations.
> >> >Many governments tax the wealthy and super-wealthy in ways that allow
> >> >greater government revenue. Using that revenue, they provide much higher
> >> >levels of services to citizens compared to the U.S.
> >> >
> >> >As a side effect of those policies, their wealth and income disparities
> >> >are much lower than the U.S. That in itself provides social benefits.
> >> >Lower disparities lead to less envy, discontent and crime.
> >> >
> >> >I'm not hearing any good arguments in favor of U.S. policies. As with
> >> >gun policies and medical care systems, our results are lousy, but the
> >> >right wing wants to ignore results while nonsensically yelling "freedom!!"
> >> Gun problem?
> >>
> >> Well, Pew research has it that 30% of the U.S. population owns a gun.
> >> that is 100,404,343 people in the U.S. own firearms.
> >> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/
> >> Another source states that 44% of the U.S. public live in a household
> >> where guns are available.
> >> https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx
> >> So, there are actually some 147, 259, 967 people in the U.S. who can
> >> access a firearm.
> >>
> >> The most up to date figures I have is 2019 but there were some 10,258
> >> murders committed with firearms according to the FBI statistics.
> >> https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11.xls
> >> So, if we assume that one person murdered only one person - I have no
> >> better statistics - then 0.0069% of gun owners murdered someone.
> >> Really, really, horrifying statistics.
> >>
> >> And yes, I did read about the school shooting in Texas - 22 deaths I
> >> believe. But on the same date there were over 300 Covid deaths.
> >>
> >> Not to, in any manner diminish the horror of school shootings but is
> >> it deaths that are being counted or deaths solely by those demon guns?
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >?????????
> >How someone dies matters. Not just the death itself. As you stated, Covid killed more than school, or mass, or regular murders. Or suicides. All by guns. Most by guns I guess. And heart attacks killed 696,962. Cancer killed 602.350. More than guns and Covid combined. Covid killed 350,831. All 2020 numbers.
> >
> >https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
> >
> >Covid deaths fell into the blameless category in 2020. But after the vaccines became available in early 2021, then the Covid deaths changed to preventable and self choice. Sort of. Personally, I put school children into the blameless category. Of course I have seen many Republicans saying the school district or the parents or the children themselves caused it. Typical. Suicides are by definition self induced. So the gun made it easier to accomplish the goal, but no one puts too much worry on these deaths.
> >
> >How someone dies affects the death. The Congressional Medal of Honor is awarded posthumously to a few soldiers. I presume how they died mattered in getting the CMH. Not all dead soldiers got the CMH.
> The Congressional Medal of Honor is awarded for something that the
> individual did. The fact that he died, or did not die, doing it has
> nothing to do with it. Since 1863 there have been 3,525 that received
> the decoration of which 618 were awarded post humorously.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Huh? If the soldier died doing something heroic to win the battle or save his comrades, then how he died is very relevant to receiving the CMH. I've heard stories of CMH soldiers throwing themselves on grenades and absorbing the shrapnel to save the others in the foxhole. Never looked it up to see if this is a true story or not. But how they died is very relevant. Or the stories of one soldier remaining at his post at the front and defending against the oncoming battalion of enemy soldiers and killing 200 of them before dying. And awarded the CMH posthumously. How they died is relevant.

I presume you meant "posthumously", not "post humorously" as you wrote. I doubt there was much humor after the death, post,

On Fri, 27 May 2022 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 7:14:20 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:26:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>
>> >https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
>> But Frank, all those rich folks paid the taxed that they were required
>> to pay under U.S. tax laws. In fact, from my years ago experience with
>> H&R Block I will bet you that they actually followed the letter of the
>> law closer then most poor folk.
>
>John, you're having great trouble understanding this: I'm not saying the ultra-rich
>are violating tax laws. I'm saying those tax laws are grossly faulty. And they are
>faulty largely because of the ultra-rich lobbying and paying to have the laws re-written
>in their favor.
>
>American tax laws need to be changed. Write that down and read it over and over until
>you understand.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Well Frank, as I've said, innumerable times. You live in a democracy
where the deciding factor is "the majority count". So, one assumes,
when the majority decide the laws need changing they will be changed.
And, again, in a democracy, the opinion of a single member is, at
best, meaningless.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:24:46 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/26/2022 12:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 5/25/2022 10:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 5/25/2022 8:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 9:45:22 PM UTC-4,
> > >>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:23:27 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > >>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I would be happy to pay more taxes. I rarely vote
> > >>>>> against a tax increase. As it
> > >>>>> is, I make large donations every year to various
> > >>>>> agencies. I can afford more taxes.
> > >>>> Careful what you wish for, you might actually get it. If
> > >>>> by the
> > >>>> miracle of creative accounting and inflation, your state
> > >>>> generates a
> > >>>> surplus, it's likely that your taxes will continue to
> > >>>> increase and
> > >>>> spent on the governors favorite projects:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "With California budget surplus projected at $97
> > >>>> billion, Newsom
> > >>>> proposes driver rebates, more reproductive health funding"
> > >>>> <https://www.capradio.org/articles/2022/05/13/newsom-california-budget-proposal-may-2022/>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Why he wants to send rebates only to drivers instead of
> > >>>> tax credits to
> > >>>> all California taxpayers is unknown.
> > >>>
> > >>> And I certainly don't approve of all government spending
> > >>> projects. Nobody ever will; there will
> > >>> always be disagreement.
> > >>>
> > >>> But the fact is, some tax revenue will always be
> > >>> necessary. The mega-rich should pay more than
> > >>> they do now.
> > >>>
> > >>> - Frank Krygowski
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> You're quite cavalier about someone else's earnings where,
> > >> "The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual
> > >> income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent
> > >> combined (29.9 percent)."
> > >>
> > >> https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/
> > >
> > >
> > > As Russell has demonstrated, that's a minimal difference in
> > > taxes levied on an enormous difference in income, not to
> > > mention wealth.
> > >
> > > American society is structured to give heavy advantages to
> > > the super wealthy. This is one of the roots of our national
> > > problems and national discontent and unrest. Countries with
> > > less financial disparity are healthier, less crime-ridden,
> > > more pleasant, more content.
> > >
> > > It takes money to run a civilization. Those with excess
> > > money should pay more. Those with grossly excess money
> > > should pay much, much more.
> > >
> > > But they've recruited even many middle class or lower class
> > > right-wingers to argue in their favor. What a wonderful scam!
> > >
> > >
> > Hey I resemble that remark. As a taxpayer, I resent the
> > half of USAians who don't pay any FIT as much as I do the
> > politicians pocketing envelopes of tax free cash and the
> > crooked contractors who pay it.
> >
> > But that's our system, a mess of bad incentives whishful
> > thinking, willful ignorance and outright propaganda. People
> > bitch (yep that's us) but nothing changes.
> I see that Frank cannot keep himself from communist propaganda.When he takes lies for truyth, that is part of his plan. NO Billionaire pays zero taxes as he could have you believe. The BEST they can do is reduce their RATE of taxation down to the level of that of the normal man. Using the BEST tax firms when I was making over$200,000/yr I STILL paid 50% of my income to Uncle Sam and California. Frank's entire life is built on a fabric of lies which he believes implicitly.

When did you Tommy make over $200,000 per year? That is relevant to the tax rate you paid since tax rates and the income levels for each marginal rate change each year. Below are the Federal marginal tax rate for income that would include your $200,000 amount. Married joint. I do not know, nor care, what your marital or divorced status was.

https://taxfoundation.org/historical-income-tax-rates-brackets/
2020
>$171,050 24%
2010
>$137,300 28%
2000
>$161,450 36%
1990
>$32,450 28%
1980
>$162,400 68%
1970
>$180,000 69%

https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-individual-income-tax-rates-and-brackets/
I could not find a history of California income tax rates. So I am using 2022 as an approximation for all years. Married joint.
2022
>$122,428 9.3%

The change from really high Federal marginal rates came in 1982. It was still 50% in 1982 for the upper marginal rate. But that is less than the 68% for 1980 I showed above.

Lets pretend Tommy boy made his $200,000 per year in 2010, back when he was only 65 years old. And in 2000, back when he was only 55 years old. And in 1990, back when he was only 45 years old. So Tommy boy's marginal tax rate for his $200,000th dollar of income, after all the adjustments and deductions, would have been 37.3% in 1990, 45.3% in 2000, and 37.3% in 2010. That is the marginal tax rate on the $200,000th dollar. He would have paid much less marginal rate on all the dollars before the $200,00th dollar. With marginal tax rates, you pay a higher rate as the income increases. So if you factor in all of the dollars receiving a much lower tax rate, Tommy paid a whole lot less than his nonsensical 50% income paid to federal and California.

Now, if Tommy boy was making his $200,000 income in 1980, when Jimmy Carter was president, then he would have paid a marginal rate of 77.3% on the last dollar he earned. And his overall combined rate may have been near 40% maybe. Because of course all the dollars under the $162,400 threshold in 1980 were taxed at a lower rate than 68%. And of course for California, only the dollars above $122,428 receive the 9.3% rate. All the dollars under that are taxed at a lower rate.

Have I proven Tommy is a liar again?

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 10:55:54 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> The College of Cardinals is an advisory group of such power that they really run the vatican as Congress does the President should they wish to do so.

Tommy, I am pretty sure once the Pope is appointed, he is in charge. Yes there are rules and regulations he must follow, And not do anything too extreme. But all of the underlings abide by what he says. Once the Pope is appointed, he cannot be removed unless he dies or voluntarily resigns. He is the boss, the only boss.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pope-ousted-resignation-sex-abuse-church-1.4811095
https://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu722.htm
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/03/can-the-pope-be-fired.html

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 11:26:25 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 11:24 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > I see that Frank cannot keep himself from communist propaganda.When he takes lies for truyth, that is part of his plan.
> I do not advocate communism. I never have.
>
> I'm convinced that Tom doesn't even understand the definition of
> communism. It's just one of many words he slings around as random insults..

I'm guessing his Fox News and Republican talking point adviser tells him to call everyone a communist and woke and CRT and LGBT. Always best to insult and blame someone else. Never ever explain why you are wrong. No no no.

> > NO Billionaire pays zero taxes as he could have you believe. The BEST they can do is reduce their RATE of taxation down to the level of that of the normal man. Using the BEST tax firms when I was making over$200,000/yr I STILL paid 50% of my income to Uncle Sam and California. Frank's entire life is built on a fabric of lies which he believes implicitly.
> So Tom is still incapable of following links and understanding articles?
>
> https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 27 May 2022 20:29:36 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 9:05:19 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:03:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> >Again, compared to most European democracies, the U.S. has more wealth
>> >and income disparity, more crime, far more murders, incredibly more gun
>> >deaths, more poverty, far worse health care, worse education, more
>> >citizen debt, longer work weeks, fewer vacation days, far more
>> >imprisonment, less general contentment, etc. All democracies are NOT
>> >equal, and I see little evidence that the U.S. system is best of all.
>> >
>> Yes, but Frank, when I pointed out that the U.S. had more crime and
>> thus likely a more lawless population then Canada you leaped to the
>> defense of the U.S.
>
>I did not. You're acting like Tom, arguing against what you wish I'd said. Instead, try
>giving an accurate quote and/or link to my actual words.
>
Well, I don't keep copies of old posts but I do distinctly remember
that when I pointed out that Canada had lower rates of Murders, Rapes
and (I think) Assaults you did in fact leap into the fray with a
series of excuses as to why they lower then the U.S.

So, o.k. we'll say that you did not make any specific and detailed
excuses but you certainly did intimate them.

>> And as for laying the blame for all of the U.S's ills on income
>> disparity,...
>
>Again, that's not what I've said, especially the "all". However, I do believe income and wealth disparity
>are major sources of problems.

And again, I agree that you didn't enumerate, in great detail, all the
exact causes and effects but you certainly did mention income
disparity over and over and over.

>
>> The murder rate in the U.S. is 6.2/100,000, Thailand 2.6.
>
>I don't dispute that at all. Of course, you have no NRA, do you?

What has the National Rifle Association have to do with it?
Does the NRA endorse illegal use of firearms?

But more inline with reality, the NRA brags of something like 5.5
million members and, as I pointed out in another post, estimates are
that some 30% own guns in the U.S.
(Pew Research)

That is what? Maybe 1/3 of 334,686,437? A whole bunch more then the
NRA, anyway.

>> The question then is "Are we doing something right" or "are you doing
>> something wrong"?
>
>Think, John! Those conditions are not mutually exclusive!
>
>> Or right here. Is Tommy the sort that you feel capable of making
>> decisions for you? He apparently is typical of a growing portion of
>> the Public. Witness the furor over "illegal votes" or the Washington
>> riot.
>
>If I were allowed to write the qualifications for voting, Tom would not qualify.
>I'd demand a certain level of intelligence, and a certain connection to reality.
>But admittedly, such standards are very unlikely to be imposed.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Yes, exactly as the guys that started the whole idea did. Owns
property, pays taxes, and has completed military training and
maintains arms. i.e., prepared to defend the city.
Nothing wrong with that.

In fact I believe I read somewhere that Winston Churchill once said
something about it being foolishness to allow those on the dole to
vote as they would only vote for more dole.

The New Jersey state constitution of 1776 granted the right to vote to
"all inhabitants" who were of legal age (21), owned property worth 50
English pounds, and resided in a county for at least one year.
Presumably "all inhabitants" were male.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 8:05:19 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2022 12:03:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/27/2022 12:21 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 26 May 2022 22:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 5/26/2022 8:20 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But Frank, you live in a democracy... and the U.S. runs about, all
> >>>> over the world, telling people that a "democracy" is the only way to
> >>>> live!
> >>>>
> >>>> Are you now saying that it isn't?
> >>>
> >>> Don't be simplistic, John. All democracies are not equal. The one I live
> >>> in has great room for improvement. Look at the data!
> >>
> >> But I'm not being simplistic. It is a democracy and y'all do run
> >> around telling people how wonderful "democracy".
> >>
> >> But how improvement?
> >
> >How improvement indeed! Um... whatever that means...
> >
> >You declined my invitation to look at data for various democracies.
> >Again, compared to most European democracies, the U.S. has more wealth
> >and income disparity, more crime, far more murders, incredibly more gun
> >deaths, more poverty, far worse health care, worse education, more
> >citizen debt, longer work weeks, fewer vacation days, far more
> >imprisonment, less general contentment, etc. All democracies are NOT
> >equal, and I see little evidence that the U.S. system is best of all.
> >
> Yes, but Frank, when I pointed out that the U.S. had more crime and
> thus likely a more lawless population then Canada you leaped to the
> defense of the U.S.
>
> And as for laying the blame for all of the U.S's ills on income
> disparity, I think you have your head in the clouds as I've lived in
> countries where the disparity between the "haves" and the "have not's"
> is far greater then the U.S. and we don't have the awful crimes that
> you flaunt.
>
> Thailand, a poor, improvised country has, currently, with the Covid,
> some 1.53% unemployment. Before Covid as low as 0.98%. And the U.S.,
> the richest country in the world, has (I read) 3.6%.
>
> The murder rate in the U.S. is 6.2/100,000, Thailand 2.6.
>

On the Gini Index, Thailand has a 35.0 score. USA has 41.5. So the income equity is much better in Thailand than the USA. So your better numbers for Thailand over the USA prove that less income disparity results in better life.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.GINI

> The U.S. has something like 7 million undocumented illegal immigrants
> working in the country. And some 5.9 million unemployed citizens.
> https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/
> https://tinyurl.com/3z3e4xdd
>
> The question then is "Are we doing something right" or "are you doing
> something wrong"?
> >However, that doesn't mean the general concept of democracy is bad. I'll
> >let you dig out this data, but I suspect that those metrics are worse
> >for the average dictatorship than for the average democracy. That would
> >mean that promoting democracy as an alternative to dictatorships does
> >make sense.
> I really wonder. How much does the average citizen know about world
> events, the effects of minimum salary on world trade and the national
> economy. And, and, and.
>
> Or right here. Is Tommy the sort that you feel capable of making
> decisions for you? He apparently is typical of a growing portion of
> the Public. Witness the furor over "illegal votes" or the Washington
> riot.
>
> But, to be honest, I do wonder whether any political system is "best".
> I've noted that the greatest progress in the world, from a bombed out
> rubble to a modern country, the richest in the region, occurred in
> Singapore under a government that was, in fact, if not facade, a
> dictatorship.

Depends on how you define "best". Economically, the Singapore as you say, and China too, would be successes. China was ravaged after WW2. By the Japanese. And went through an internal dispute. And had lots of mouths to feed. And now, its sort of OK economically. Is economic success "best"?

>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.