On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 08:56:44 -0400, Big Al wrote:
>
> On 6/2/22 08:23, this is what Mayayana wrote:
> > "How do you choose which icons to display in thew lower right?"
> >
> > Correct answer: "Can't be done. You can only pretend to have
> > a choice by using the option to customize notifications, but those
> > settings are ignored by Windows since XP."
> I beg to differ. I've been able to change which icons show in the lower right. They move from the 'tray' to the ^
> arrow if you don't display them.

That matches my experience, in Windows 7, 8.1, and 10.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

"Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote

| > Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
| > Irfanview ?
| | I'd never heard of it before it was mentioned here and I certainly don't
| have a copy of it.
|

I think I've used it since '99. I liked it so much that
I mailed the author, Irfan Skildjan, some cash. At the
time I think there was Fastone for a fairly high cost.
Not much else. It was also the era of WinZip. One
serviceable, retail product in each category. Power
Archiver destroyed WinZip's market. (Along with their
own.)

Irfan View was the clear winner for image viewing,
and it was free. It's still the same all these years later.
The author would like donations, but doesn't require
them. That little program can do most things with images,
and there's no bloat. No .Net, Python, ImageMagick,
or other crappy wrappers. It's just clean code. The
actual EXE is less than 2 MB, with no DLLs. So it's
the perfect generic image viewer. For people with
limited needs it's also an adequate raster editor. The
only major thing missing is an MDI interface too allow
for complex image editing.

So whenever I set up a computer for myself or anyone
else, I always put on IV as one of the basics, along with
VLC or Media Player Classic, FilZip, 7-Zip, Firefox,
Sysinternals programs, HxD hex editor, Sumatra and
PDF XChange Viewer for PDF, ImgBurn for writing CDs
and DVDs... Usually Libre Office. They're mostly best-of
options to bypass Windows' skimpy offerings,
corporate bloatware, and overpriced retail products.

"Big Al" <Bears@invalid.com> wrote

| > Correct answer: "Can't be done. You can only pretend to have
| > a choice by using the option to customize notifications, but those
| > settings are ignored by Windows since XP."

| I beg to differ. I've been able to change which icons show in the lower
right. They move from the 'tray' to the ^
| arrow if you don't display them.
|

Yes, but they don't always to what you tell them to.

"Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote

| If I want to actually *do* something, then I open PSE/Gimp/MSWord/LR etc.
| then open the file from within.
| | Who cares what the default jpg viewer is?
|

Sounds like a typical Linux nerd. Yu don't really care
about graphics, but you'll die on your sword for EMacs...
or something else. For the average person using a computer,
viewing images is common. If you didn't have it preset
on Linux then you'd want to find a viewer.

For people who care about graphics and GUI generally,
it makes a bigger difference. IV provides lots of options for
default viewing size, going through all images in a folder, zoom,
etc. At the same time, there's no clutter, like an Explorer
view that no one needs. In any case, we were talking about
tech support for people on Windows.

On Macs, tech support means gently suggesting that the
person go to visit a Genius at the Apple Church. On Linux,
tech support means saying, "Google's thataway, dipshit."
But on Windows there's a wide range of expertise, so you
need to know what someone will understand.

On 3/06/2022 12:23 am, Mayayana wrote:
> "Roger Blake" <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote
>
> | If you ask them to check icons in the system tray and have no idea what
> | you are talking about you can be reasonably certain they are totally,
> | completely, hopelessly clueless.
> |
>
> I doubt that many people other than programmers know
> the term "system tray".

Well that's wrong for starters. So disregard the rest.

geoff

On 3/06/2022 1:37 am, Big Al wrote:
> On 6/2/22 09:06, this is what Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Mon, 30 May 2022 09:56:15 -0600, John Robertson escribió:
>>
>>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>>> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
>>> level.
>>>
>>> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>>>
>>> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
>>> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're
>>> a noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>>
>> Is this a joke? I am far from "noob" and haven't a clue what I view
>> images and videos with. Whatever appears when the filename is double-
>> clicked.
>>
>> Hang on, I'll just try...On this linux box, the photo viewer is "Xviewer"
>> and, hang on, videos open in something called "Celluloid". There's a
>> windows box next to me, but I rarely fire that up and right now can't be
>> bothered.
>>
>> If you were to ask me what I *edit* stuff in, that would be a different
>> saucepan of tadpoles.
>>
> I edit photos with GIMP.  But GIMP is available on Win and Linux.
> And as Paul just said, both OSs associate an appropriate program by
> filetypes.  Granted you can change the system default, but a noob would
> not know the program and just know "I double click the file".

Not just a 'noob'.

I couldn't tell you right now which app of 3 or 4 possibilities views
pix by default on my Win boxes. For casual viewing I just go with the
flow, unless something doesn't work as I expect - in which case I change
the default to something else which I don't necessarily even remember.

Viewing with a particular purpose might be a different scenario.

geoff

"geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote

| > I doubt that many people other than programmers know
| > the term "system tray".
| | Well that's wrong for starters.

You think no one knows of Irfan View but most people
know "system tray"? You may need to get out more.
Find a human family. :)

On 3/06/2022 6:35 am, Mayayana wrote:
> "Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote
>
> | If I want to actually *do* something, then I open PSE/Gimp/MSWord/LR etc.
> | then open the file from within.
> |
> | Who cares what the default jpg viewer is?
> |
>
> Sounds like a typical Linux nerd. Yu don't really care
> about graphics, but you'll die on your sword for EMacs...
> or something else. For the average person using a computer,
> viewing images is common. If you didn't have it preset
> on Linux then you'd want to find a viewer.
>
> For people who care about graphics and GUI generally,
> it makes a bigger difference. IV provides lots of options for
> default viewing size, going through all images in a folder, zoom,
> etc. At the same time, there's no clutter, like an Explorer
> view that no one needs. In any case, we were talking about
> tech support for people on Windows.

Tried almost any other simple or default viewer in Win in the last 10
years ?

geoff

On 6/2/2022 2:26 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote
>
> | > Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
> | > Irfanview ?
> |
> | I'd never heard of it before it was mentioned here and I certainly don't
> | have a copy of it.
> |
>
> I think I've used it since '99. I liked it so much that
> I mailed the author, Irfan Skildjan, some cash. At the
> time I think there was Fastone for a fairly high cost.
> Not much else. It was also the era of WinZip. One
> serviceable, retail product in each category. Power
> Archiver destroyed WinZip's market. (Along with their
> own.)
>
> Irfan View was the clear winner for image viewing,
> and it was free. It's still the same all these years later.
> The author would like donations, but doesn't require
> them. That little program can do most things with images,
> and there's no bloat. No .Net, Python, ImageMagick,
> or other crappy wrappers. It's just clean code. The
> actual EXE is less than 2 MB, with no DLLs. So it's
> the perfect generic image viewer. For people with
> limited needs it's also an adequate raster editor. The
> only major thing missing is an MDI interface too allow
> for complex image editing.
>
> So whenever I set up a computer for myself or anyone
> else, I always put on IV as one of the basics, along with
> VLC or Media Player Classic, FilZip, 7-Zip, Firefox,
> Sysinternals programs, HxD hex editor, Sumatra and
> PDF XChange Viewer for PDF, ImgBurn for writing CDs
> and DVDs... Usually Libre Office. They're mostly best-of
> options to bypass Windows' skimpy offerings,
> corporate bloatware, and overpriced retail products.
>
>
One of the things that Attracted me to Irfanview was the size of the
basic viewer. At the time I started using it, I could put several
dozen pictures on a 3.5" floppy and a copy of the irfanview viewer, so
my friends could look at my picturs.

I have youed it to do basic photo manipulations, Anotate images, Adjust
color, and for a period I even used it with my scanner. One other great
feature if you are working with a lot of images of documents, ie US
census, wills, ,etc. Irfanview can create Multipage PDF files from a
collection on images.

Using a Addon, Irfanview can do OCR of a document. Again great if you
are doing research.

As the old commercial said "Try it you will like it"

On 3/06/2022 9:16 am, Mayayana wrote:
> "geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>
> | > I doubt that many people other than programmers know
> | > the term "system tray".
> |
> | Well that's wrong for starters.
>
> You think no one knows of Irfan View but most people
> know "system tray"? You may need to get out more.
> Find a human family. :)
>
>

I get out heaps.

Pretty much all my close and extended family that use computers know
what the Win system tray is, and it's purpose. And likewise my friends
and acquaintances.

In the quick survey above, not one of over a dozen regular computer
users amongst then had ever heard of Irfanview.

geoff

"knuttle" <keith_nuttle@sbcglobal.net> wrote

| Irfanview can create Multipage PDF files from a
| collection on images.
|

Wild. I never noticed that. But I do have the plugin.

"geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote

| Tried almost any other simple or default viewer in Win in the last 10
| years ?
|

No. I've never bothered to try any other viewer.
I've had no reason to. Just as ImgBurn never fails writing
DVDs, IV always behaves perfectly and renders all formats.
Recently I found that I can't view a webp file on XP or
any programs I have on XP. IrfanView? Sure enough. I
just had to go get the plugin. And of course, it still supports
XP, because it's all low-level code.

I don't mess with success. I do have Paint Shop Pro
5 and 16, and Aftershot Pro, for graphic editing. Avidemux
for video. But for viewing I've always used IV.

I don't even remember what Windows has used as default
over the years. It's always inadequate. Part of that is
not stepping on the toes of other companies and inviting
monopoly lawsuits. Part of it is royalties. They're not likely to
include support for formats if they have to pay for it.

If there were something better than IV I expect I would
have heard about it here. I sometimes spend a great deal
of time looking for the best option to do something. Once
I find it, I try to stick with it.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:26:37 -0400, "Mayayana"
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote
>
>| > Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
>| > Irfanview ?
>|
>| I'd never heard of it before it was mentioned here and I certainly don't
>| have a copy of it.
>|
>
> I think I've used it since '99. I liked it so much that
>I mailed the author, Irfan Skildjan, some cash. At the
>time I think there was Fastone for a fairly high cost.

FastStone is a free app, and - as far I know - always has been free.

I've been using it as my primary image viewer for several years even
though I also have Adobe PS/LR/Bridge by subscription and IrfanView.

I use FastStone as my primary image viewer because it allows tagging
and the ability to quickly re-name/re-number images and to place the
images in the sequence I want them re-named. In FastStone, I can open
a file in PS, move or copy multiple files to other folders, compare
two photos, display as thumbnail or full-screen, and do several other
functions.

There's nothing, really, that I do in FastStone that can't be done in
some other app that I have installed, but I prefer it as my primary
viewer.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 2022-06-02 4:16 p.m., Mayayana wrote:
> "geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>
> | > I doubt that many people other than programmers know
> | > the term "system tray".
> |
> | Well that's wrong for starters.
>
> You think no one knows of Irfan View but most people
> know "system tray"? You may need to get out more.
> Find a human family. :)
>
>
System tray, How about 'Notification Area'
..

Rene

"Tony Cooper" <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote

|
| FastStone is a free app, and - as far I know - always has been free.
|

It may be something else I'm thinking of. Or maybe it was the
commercial version. I had an architect friend who recommended
it and said he'd paid for it.

Back then I dn't think there were many viewers. Rendering the
different formats was advanced programming.

"Rene Lamontagne" <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote

| System tray, How about 'Notification Area'

Apparently that's the official name for it:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030910-00/?p=42583

I think I've always just called it the right side of the taskbar.

"Tony Cooper" <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jcli9hhnlpsr3iadaj0c9grnnga8ughcjh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:26:37 -0400, "Mayayana"
> <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>>"Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote
>>
>>| > Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
>>| > Irfanview ?
>>|
>>| I'd never heard of it before it was mentioned here and I certainly don't
>>| have a copy of it.
>>|
>>
>> I think I've used it since '99. I liked it so much that
>>I mailed the author, Irfan Skildjan, some cash. At the
>>time I think there was Fastone for a fairly high cost.
>
> FastStone is a free app, and - as far I know - always has been free.
>
> snip <

FastStone Image Viewer & FastStone Photo Resizer are freeware

FastStone Capture & FastStone Maxview are commercial

Please give the full title of the programme you are using so as not to cause
confusion.
A link to the programme is also good.

- https://www.faststone.org/

--
Regards
wasbit

"Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan$be3fe$2009a077$c56be2a$936c91f6@gmail.com...
> El Mon, 30 May 2022 09:56:15 -0600, John Robertson escribió:
>
>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
>> level.
>>
>> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>>
>> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
>> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're
>> a noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> Is this a joke? I am far from "noob" and haven't a clue what I view
> images and videos with. Whatever appears when the filename is double-
> clicked.
>
> Hang on, I'll just try...On this linux box, the photo viewer is "Xviewer"
> and, hang on, videos open in something called "Celluloid". There's a
> windows box next to me, but I rarely fire that up and right now can't be
> bothered.
>
> If you were to ask me what I *edit* stuff in, that would be a different
> saucepan of tadpoles.
>

But you are not a noob, (horrible lazy derogatory term for a new user) as
evidenced by the fact that you are using Usenet & Linux & you are editing.

--
Regards
wasbit

"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
news:t737fd$2bl$1@dont-email.me...
> "John Robertson" <spam@flippers.com> wrote
>
> | If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert
>
> My term for that is "sucker". But a lot of people
> in business are forced to use PS, so it's not so clearcut.
> So maybe I'd have 3 categories: sucker, business user, and
> "Mom bought it for me".
>

I believe that Photoshop was sometimes included in the installed software
bundle when you bought a new computer.
Probably it would then come under your category of "Mom bought it for me"
but your categories are generalisations that have a very wide scope.

--
Regards
wasbit

"John Robertson" <spam@flippers.com> wrote in message
news:t72pe6$2e6f5$1@news.mixmin.net...
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>
> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>

I only know because I have Irfanview installed but if you asked me the
default viewer built into Windows I would have to look it up, not forgetting
that it changes with each version of Windows.

--
Regards
wasbit

"Big Al" <Bears@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:t72qh5$qgc$1@dont-email.me...
> On 5/30/22 11:56, this is what John Robertson wrote:
>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>> them
>> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>>
>> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>>
>> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
>> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
>> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>>
>> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's
>> not
>> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the
>> noobs.
>>
>> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or
>> video,
>> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick
>> but
>> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>>
>> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?
> Would asking what they would write a letter with work? A letter to print
> and either hand deliver or mail in an envelope.
> If they say notepad then they're off the deep end.
>

Why?
I use Notepad for practically everything written.
Even though I have Libra Office I use Wordpad for written correspondence.

--
Regards
wasbit

"wasbit" <wasbitREMOVE@hotmail.com> wrote

| I believe that Photoshop was sometimes included in the installed software
| bundle when you bought a new computer.

My brother got PS4 with a scanner. Then when he tried to
upggrade to PS5, Adobe gave him a hard time. They claimed
that it wasn't his software because he had entered the company
he worked for during setup. He had to go back to that company
and have them write a letter attesting that my brother had
got the software himself....

Nasty company. But like Microsoft, they've suckered anyone
who wants to seem "professional". I suppose the more extreme
noob category would be someone who uses Acrobat Reader.
That's the kind of thing that indicates people don't know about
software choice.

Like you, I use Notepad a lot. (I was reading your post above.)
In fact, I probably use Notepad more that any other program. I
think a lot of these judgements are based on personal usage. For
someone who uses MS Word all day, a computer expert is someone
who uses MS Word. They probably don't even know about Notepad.
Similarly with Photoshop. Anyone who types out a recipe in Word
or views images in Photoshop is probably inexperienced with anything
except those programs. But they're likely to be very adept in their
specific area. It's a bit like an assembly line worker. They're well
trained in attaching the right rear fender of a car being assembled
at their plant, and they can probably cover several other stations
on the assembly line, but they can't change their oil. Because cars
are not their thing. They just happen to work assembling them. Ditto
for architects with AutoCAD. They may work all day at a computer,
but that doesn't mean they know how to turn it on.

El Thu, 02 Jun 2022 14:35:28 -0400, Mayayana escribió:

> "Paul Carmichael" <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote
>
> | If I want to actually *do* something, then I open PSE/Gimp/MSWord/LR
> etc.
> | then open the file from within.
> |
> | Who cares what the default jpg viewer is?
> |
>
> Sounds like a typical Linux nerd. Yu don't really care
> about graphics, but you'll die on your sword for EMacs...

<plonk>

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

In article <t7chub$76u$1@dont-email.me>, wasbit
<wasbitREMOVE@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > | If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert
> >
> > My term for that is "sucker". But a lot of people
> > in business are forced to use PS, so it's not so clearcut.

nobody is forced to use photoshop. they do so because nothing else does
what it does as well as it does.

> > So maybe I'd have 3 categories: sucker, business user, and
> > "Mom bought it for me".
> >
>
> I believe that Photoshop was sometimes included in the installed software
> bundle when you bought a new computer.

you believe incorrectly. photoshop has never been bundled with a
computer or anything else for that matter. it's a high end product.

photoshop elements, the consumer version, was bundled with some
peripherals, such as scanners or cameras. never a computer.

In article <t7cous$qi6$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> My brother got PS4 with a scanner. Then when he tried to
> upggrade to PS5, Adobe gave him a hard time. They claimed
> that it wasn't his software because he had entered the company
> he worked for during setup. He had to go back to that company
> and have them write a letter attesting that my brother had
> got the software himself....

who paid for the scanner? if the company did, then they own it and
anything that's bundled with it. if he paid for it, then why did he
register it as the company?