On Friday, 3 June 2022 at 17:28:40 UTC+1, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 6/3/2022 2:48 AM, wasbit wrote:
> > "Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
> > news:t737fd$2bl$1...@dont-email.me...
> >> "John Robertson" <sp...@flippers.com> wrote
> >>
> >> | If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert
> >>
> >> My term for that is "sucker". But a lot of people
> >> in business are forced to use PS, so it's not so clearcut.
> >> So maybe I'd have 3 categories: sucker, business user, and
> >> "Mom bought it for me".
> >>
> >
> > I believe that Photoshop was sometimes included in the installed
> > software bundle when you bought a new computer.
> > Probably it would then come under your category of "Mom bought it for
> > me" but your categories are generalisations that have a very wide scope.
> I don't recall Photoshop ever packaged with scanners or other equipment.
> I think you probably recall Photoshop ELEMENTS, a much less capable and
> much less expensive suite.
> --
> Jeff Barnett
I have a copy (still in shrinkwrap somewhere) of photoshop LE that came with a scanner i bought many years ago.
most likely early 2000s as it was a SCSI scanner.
But the real PS didn't come 'free' with anything but perhaps some did buy it as a deal with a scanner.
Perhaps the LE was for less expensive or free or the prequal to photoshop elements.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 11:39:13 -0400, "Mayayana"
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"Bill W" <nothing@nowhere.com> wrote
>
>| > I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save�.
>|
>| Isn’t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient hardware.
>So
>| what applies to “modern machinesâ€?, might not apply to him.
>|
>|
>
> I mostly use XP, but it's a machine I built in 2015, with 8-core
>AMD 3.3 GHz. Nearly everything is instant, faster than my
>Win7 or Win10 machines. The Win7, especially, is slow booting.
>Though Libre Office Writer takes 2-3 seconds to show up on XP,
>and Firefox is about the same. Because I don't allow either to
>load their fast start crap.
>
> I don't subscribe to the idea that there's no need to keep
>things clean just because we have plenty of space to dump.
>With the speed of hardware these days, nothing should ever
>have any lag, but programmers get more sloppy when they feel
>they can afford to.
>
> There's also the issue of software quality. This started with talking
>about how IrfanView is compact. That's not just about saving
>space and gaining speed. It's also about competence. The IV
>developer knows how to actually write software on Windows.
>He's not using Python or .Net to call into Qt or ImageMagick,
>wrapping the API in multiple layers of bloat.
>
> Remember Longhorn in 2005? It was a big flop because, as the
>MS people themselves put it, the hardware didn't yet exist that
>could handle the stupendous bloat of an OS running as a .Net
>wrapper around the API... By 2007, the hardware that could support
>Aero was new. Hence the Vista non-Aero version. That pattern is
>always happening: Capacity is degraded by laziness and sloppiness
>and dumb design. (Aero needs constant painting of the GUI with
>alpha channel calculations and rounded corners on windows, for
>example. Why? Because it's cool to see folder frames that look like
>you're peeking through grass?)... When Win8 came out with Metro,
>that was another mess that could only run on new hardware. Many
>people in nwsgroups now complain about slow browsers, despite
>having a new machine and some ridiculous amount of RAM. Why?
>Because websites are taking that same approach of sloppy
>coding, loading webpages that are running more executable code
>than most software programs.
>
> People with 2 TB hard disks buy an external drive to supplement
>it because they can't be bothered to figure out whether they
>really need all of their 40,000 vacation photos. You could say,
>"What's the problem? Hard disks are cheap." Or you could say,
>"Why waste money being a slob?" Two views. The latter makes
>more sense to me. :)

OK, we get it. You want applause because you've dedicated your life
to dicking around with your computer and its antique software in order
to make your life needlessly harder for you, Bravo.

May give you the illusion of superior tinkering skills, fine. However
you might usefully reflect on the fact that those who use modern kit
and modern software how it's meant to be used, simply don't need to
tinker constantly, but instead just use their computers to get stuff
done with them.

Seems to me that you miss those old bygone days when one needed to
tinkering skills to even keep a computer running, let alone do
something with it. Well, those days are long gone.

On 2022-06-06, geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
> All in line with the 'rationale' of your sig.

In other words you have nothing of value to add. Thanks for playing!

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Reasons I won't be vaccinated -- https://tinyurl.com/ebty2dx3
Covid vaccines: experimental biology -- https://tinyurl.com/57mncfm5
The fraud of "Climate Change" -- https://RealClimateScience.com
There is no "climate crisis" -- https://climatedepot.com
Don't talk to cops! -- https://DontTalkToCops.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/6/2022 7:17 AM, none@given.com wrote:

> Seems to me that you miss those old bygone days when one needed to
> tinkering skills to even keep a computer running, let alone do
> something with it. Well, those days are long gone.
>

And we think it's sad to see the youngsters get run over by the
bus which is Windows 11. They'll never know what hit them! ; )

On 6/6/2022 7:17 AM, none@given.com wrote:

>
> Seems to me that you miss those old bygone days when one needed to
> tinkering skills to even keep a computer running, let alone do
> something with it. Well, those days are long gone.

Ah, a person with some experience with Federated Search.
Pleased to meet you.

Why doesn't my copy of VirtualBox work properly any more on Windows 11 ?
Does anyone know ? Don't we have anyone to tinker with it ?

This is the state of affairs in the year 2022:

"At least the browser still works..."

They don't aspire to anything greater. That's how you
reduce the tinkering input, by not using the computer
for anything.

Paul

On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 05:04:06 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
> On 5/06/2022 12:42 am, Mayayana wrote:
> > "geoff" <ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
> >
> > | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
> > | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
> > |
> >
> > That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
> > letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
> > that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
> > keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
> > encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
> > Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
> > mess of files.)
> >
> > For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
> > reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
> > the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
> > Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
> > have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
> > Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
> > ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
> > is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
> > I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
> > I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
> > But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
> > universal.
> >
> >
> Bloat ? You click the icon and a second or two later you can do
> anything you can imagine. How is that a problem, or somehow inefficient?
> Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
> aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....

I use word and excel and as I get them free via work I don't mind the bloat.
But with word at 2.24GB, excel at 1.95GB, outlook 2GB, onenote 1GB, that's 7GB
which is 7 mins of 4K cat video ;-)

But I can do almost anything I want using google docs which I don;t think takes up anyspace and I have the goggle drive
which I have 15GB space on and only about 50% full and most of that cna be deleted if I wanted to.

>
> geoff

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
[...]

> In any case, "none.given" is like nospam on a bad day. He's
> only here to argue nonsense and insult people. The photo group
> seems to have more than its share of cranks.

none@given.com:

[V] Clueless
[V] Snotty
[V] Anonymous

none@given.com wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 12:00:12 -0400, "Mayayana"
> <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
[...]
> > Personally, I'm in the middle of looking for the best free
> >option to convert HTML to PDF. Why? Because sometimes
> >I want to do that and it's worth it to me to find the best
> >option for future use. I've found some options, but so far
> >nothing that just does the job and does it dependably, without
> >screwing up CSS translation or some such. I want something
> >that just works..
>
> So do what everyone else with a bit of computer expertise does --
> simply print to PDF. Job done. But then it would all be just too
> easy, wouldn't it?

So you clearly don't understand - or haven't even read - the
problem/requirements, but that doesn't prevent you posting a clueless
pompous snotty remark about it!? Check.

Clue-by-four: Your 'solution isn't one, because it fails the "without
...." part.

On 7/06/2022 2:05 am, Paul wrote:
> On 6/6/2022 7:17 AM, none@given.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Seems to me that you miss those old bygone days when one needed to
>> tinkering skills  to even keep a computer running, let alone do
>> something with it.   Well, those days are long gone.
>
> Ah, a person with some experience with Federated Search.
> Pleased to meet you.
>
> Why doesn't my copy of VirtualBox work properly any more on Windows 11 ?
> Does anyone know ? Don't we have anyone to tinker with it ?
>
> This is the state of affairs in the year 2022:
>
>    "At least the browser still works..."
>
> They don't aspire to anything greater. That's how you
> reduce the tinkering input, by not using the computer
> for anything.
>
>   Paul
>
>

A simple google search will answer your question and solve your problem,
so you can continue tinkering away to your hearts content.

geoff

On 7/06/2022 3:40 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 05:04:06 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
>> On 5/06/2022 12:42 am, Mayayana wrote:
>>> "geoff" <ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>>>
>>> | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
>>> | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
>>> |
>>>
>>> That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
>>> letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
>>> that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
>>> keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
>>> encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
>>> Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
>>> mess of files.)
>>>
>>> For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
>>> reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
>>> the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
>>> Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
>>> have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
>>> Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
>>> ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
>>> is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
>>> I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
>>> I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
>>> But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
>>> universal.
>>>
>>>
>> Bloat ? You click the icon and a second or two later you can do
>> anything you can imagine. How is that a problem, or somehow inefficient?
>> Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
>> aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....
>
> I use word and excel and as I get them free via work I don't mind the bloat.
> But with word at 2.24GB, excel at 1.95GB, outlook 2GB, onenote 1GB, that's 7GB
> which is 7 mins of 4K cat video ;-)

Whoop-dee-doo. So ?
>
> But I can do almost anything I want using google docs which I don;t think takes up anyspace and I have the goggle drive
> which I have 15GB space on and only about 50% full and most of that cna be deleted if I wanted to.

Pleased for you.

geoff

On 6/6/2022 4:54 PM, geoff wrote:
> On 7/06/2022 2:05 am, Paul wrote:
>> On 6/6/2022 7:17 AM, none@given.com wrote:
>>
>
> A simple google search will answer your question and solve your problem, so you can continue tinkering away to your hearts content.
>
> geoff

A simple Google isn't going to train you on how to use
the Federated Search feature. That's what makes it awful
in the year 2022. The participants here know not to use it.
But I spent the time to make it work, and boy, does it
"creak". As near as I can determine, whoever wrote it, has
left the company, as nobody seems to work on it any more.

As an example, it has a selector, to select between indexing
filenames and contents, or just indexing filenames. The selector
does nothing. It's a tick box which is completely worthless.
Does Google tell you that ? No. Of course not.

Paul

On 7/06/2022 3:02 pm, Paul wrote:
> On 6/6/2022 4:54 PM, geoff wrote:
>> On 7/06/2022 2:05 am, Paul wrote:
>>> On 6/6/2022 7:17 AM, none@given.com wrote:
>>>
>>
>> A simple google search will answer your question and solve your
>> problem, so you can continue tinkering away to your hearts content.
>>
>> geoff
>
> A simple Google isn't going to train you on how to use
> the Federated Search feature. That's what makes it awful
> in the year 2022. The participants here know not to use it.
> But I spent the time to make it work, and boy, does it
> "creak". As near as I can determine, whoever wrote it, has
> left the company, as nobody seems to work on it any more.
>
> As an example, it has a selector, to select between indexing
> filenames and contents, or just indexing filenames. The selector
> does nothing. It's a tick box which is completely worthless.
> Does Google tell you that ? No. Of course not.
>
>    Paul

A simple google search will tell you why your VirtualBox doesn't work,
and how to fix it.

https://bfy.tw/TAuJ

geoff

On 6 Jun 2022 16:27:38 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>[...]
>
>> In any case, "none.given" is like nospam on a bad day. He's
>> only here to argue nonsense and insult people. The photo group
>> seems to have more than its share of cranks.
>
>none@given.com:
>
>[V] Clueless
>[V] Snotty
>[V] Anonymous

'appen.

On the other hand, all my computers mysteriously just work.

Maybe, if the nered obsession with trying to"tame" their computers
trying to keep them back in the 1990s brings them so much grief...
it's not a good idea?

On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 21:57:51 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
> On 7/06/2022 3:40 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 05:04:06 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
> >> On 5/06/2022 12:42 am, Mayayana wrote:
> >>> "geoff" <ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
> >>>
> >>> | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
> >>> | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
> >>> |
> >>>
> >>> That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
> >>> letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
> >>> that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
> >>> keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
> >>> encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
> >>> Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
> >>> mess of files.)
> >>>
> >>> For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
> >>> reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
> >>> the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
> >>> Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
> >>> have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
> >>> Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
> >>> ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
> >>> is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
> >>> I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
> >>> I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
> >>> But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
> >>> universal.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Bloat ? You click the icon and a second or two later you can do
> >> anything you can imagine. How is that a problem, or somehow inefficient?
> >> Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
> >> aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....
> >
> > I use word and excel and as I get them free via work I don't mind the bloat.
> > But with word at 2.24GB, excel at 1.95GB, outlook 2GB, onenote 1GB, that's 7GB
> > which is 7 mins of 4K cat video ;-)
> Whoop-dee-doo. So ?

It means that if work didn't pay for and want me to use MS then I wouldn't pay or use it, because at home I don't need to read documents that have been sent to me with the
latest fonts, formulas, cells and whatever else has been used.

> >
> > But I can do almost anything I want using google docs which I dont think takes up anyspace and I have the goggle drive
> > which I have 15GB space on and only about 50% full and most of that cna be deleted if I wanted to.
> Pleased for you.

Me too, I use what suits me for what I want to do.

>
> geoff

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| A simple Google isn't going to train you on how to use
| the Federated Search feature. That's what makes it awful
| in the year 2022. The participants here know not to use it.

I'd never heard of that. But I saw an interview yesterday
with a woman who's written a novel about a future where
algorythms determine, based on social media history and so on,
your creditworthiness, trustworthiness, and so on. Typical
geek logic: "Fucking would be so much easier if I could make my
computer do it for me. And there'd be a lot less slime to clean up.
It's a win/win, worthy of a big IPO."

I think I agree with none.given here. This all makes my head
hurt. If it doesn't go into my microwave for 3 minutes and come
out looking like food, I don't want to know about it. Why complicate
life? I have enough trouble with people who don't replace the
toilet paper roll, without having to worry about irritating
things like variety, efficiency, color, curiosity... Why is there more
than one kind of bee, for God's sake? Fuck that. Shut up. :)

On 7/06/2022 9:31 pm, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Monday, 6 June 2022 at 21:57:51 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
>> On 7/06/2022 3:40 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 05:04:06 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
>>>> On 5/06/2022 12:42 am, Mayayana wrote:
>>>>> "geoff" <ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
>>>>> | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
>>>>> |
>>>>>
>>>>> That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
>>>>> letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
>>>>> that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
>>>>> keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
>>>>> encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
>>>>> Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
>>>>> mess of files.)
>>>>>
>>>>> For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
>>>>> reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
>>>>> the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
>>>>> Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
>>>>> have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
>>>>> Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
>>>>> ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
>>>>> is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
>>>>> I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
>>>>> I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
>>>>> But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
>>>>> universal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Bloat ? You click the icon and a second or two later you can do
>>>> anything you can imagine. How is that a problem, or somehow inefficient?
>>>> Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
>>>> aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....
>>>
>>> I use word and excel and as I get them free via work I don't mind the bloat.
>>> But with word at 2.24GB, excel at 1.95GB, outlook 2GB, onenote 1GB, that's 7GB
>>> which is 7 mins of 4K cat video ;-)
>> Whoop-dee-doo. So ?
>
> It means that if work didn't pay for and want me to use MS then I wouldn't pay or use it, because at home I don't need to read documents that have been sent to me with the
> latest fonts, formulas, cells and whatever else has been used.
>
>>>
>>> But I can do almost anything I want using google docs which I dont think takes up anyspace and I have the goggle drive
>>> which I have 15GB space on and only about 50% full and most of that cna be deleted if I wanted to.
>> Pleased for you.
>
> Me too, I use what suits me for what I want to do.

Sound kind of puritanical.

geoff

On Tuesday, 7 June 2022 at 10:10:44 pm UTC+10, Mayayana wrote:
> "Paul" <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote
> | A simple Google isn't going to train you on how to use
> | the Federated Search feature. That's what makes it awful
> | in the year 2022. The participants here know not to use it.
> I'd never heard of that. But I saw an interview yesterday
> with a woman who's written a novel about a future where
> algorythms determine, based on social media history and so on,
> your creditworthiness, trustworthiness, and so on. Typical
> geek logic: "Fucking would be so much easier if I could make my
> computer do it for me. And there'd be a lot less slime to clean up.
> It's a win/win, worthy of a big IPO."
>
> I think I agree with none.given here. This all makes my head
> hurt. If it doesn't go into my microwave for 3 minutes and come
> out looking like food, I don't want to know about it. Why complicate
> life? I have enough trouble with people who don't replace the
> toilet paper roll, without having to worry about irritating
> things like variety, efficiency, color, curiosity... Why is there more
> than one kind of bee, for God's sake? Fuck that. Shut up. :)

>.. a novel about a future where
> algorythms determine, based on social media history and so on,
> your creditworthiness, trustworthiness, and so on.

The future? Sounds more like the present day in a certain very populous country on the Western side of the Pacific.

Cheers,
Magani

On 9/06/2022 1:11 pm, Magani wrote:
> On Tuesday, 7 June 2022 at 10:10:44 pm UTC+10, Mayayana wrote:
>> "Paul" <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote
>> | A simple Google isn't going to train you on how to use
>> | the Federated Search feature. That's what makes it awful
>> | in the year 2022. The participants here know not to use it.
>> I'd never heard of that. But I saw an interview yesterday
>> with a woman who's written a novel about a future where
>> algorythms determine, based on social media history and so on,
>> your creditworthiness, trustworthiness, and so on. Typical
>> geek logic: "Fucking would be so much easier if I could make my
>> computer do it for me. And there'd be a lot less slime to clean up.
>> It's a win/win, worthy of a big IPO."
>>
>> I think I agree with none.given here. This all makes my head
>> hurt. If it doesn't go into my microwave for 3 minutes and come
>> out looking like food, I don't want to know about it. Why complicate
>> life? I have enough trouble with people who don't replace the
>> toilet paper roll, without having to worry about irritating
>> things like variety, efficiency, color, curiosity... Why is there more
>> than one kind of bee, for God's sake? Fuck that. Shut up. :)
>
>
>> .. a novel about a future where
>> algorythms determine, based on social media history and so on,
>> your creditworthiness, trustworthiness, and so on.
>
> The future? Sounds more like the present day in a certain very populous country on the Western side of the Pacific.
>
> Cheers,
> Magani

Um, not pretty much the whole world then ?

geoff