On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 08:48:46 -0400, "Mayayana"
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

><none@given.com> wrote
>
>| This isn't about "noobs", it's all about bragging that one's arbitrary
>| choice of unconventional software somehow makes one "superior".
>|
>| For the record, I've known about Irfanview since it first came out
>| back in the mid-1990s. Never liked it, despite the sacred status
>| assigned to it by the usual nerds.
>|
>
> OK. So you resent people knowledgeable about using computers....

Not at all. But what makes you think that you're particularly
"knowledgeable" about computers? You may know your own unconventional
setup, but that's no reason why anyone else should care about your
desperate condescension towards them..

>Now, we'd like to narrow down your expertise further. Please look around
>at the screen of the TV part of your computer. Do you see an apple
>with a bite taken out? A four-color flag that appears to be blowing
>in the wind? Or do you see two giant eyes that follow you around,
>and 7 programs to give you a console window?

Pathetic blustering. Come off it, you do yourself no favors.

> If you see none of those things, does your computer have a logo
>that says, "Wow!" and did you buy it with a coupon that you received
>when you bought your dentures?

Which one of my numerous computers and their different operating
systems and software might you be talking about?

<none@given.com> wrote

| > OK. So you resent people knowledgeable about using computers....
| | Not at all. But what makes you think that you're particularly
| "knowledgeable" about computers?

I make no claims about expertise. But I'm a handyman by
nature, so I've taught myself about Windows OS, programming,
software, etc. For me it seems worthwhile to research options.
If I need a program for something, I look into what's available.
In my experience, the best is often not the most popular or
the most expensive. A lot of other people also find it worthwhile
to find the best products. So we compare notes. That's why
so many people know and like IrfanView. It's a free, small,
very useful program that "just works".

As a programmer I like
it even more because so much software these days is mostly
just wrappers, using .Net, Java, Python, etc and written by
people who don't actually know the APIs of the system they're
on. With a tiny, dependency-free program like IV I know that
the author really knows what he's doing.... and he's not going
to clutter my system with crap.

| You may know your own unconventional
| setup, but that's no reason why anyone else should care about your
| desperate condescension towards them..
|

You don't have to see it as a competition. No one's
trying to beat you. This started as a discussion about how
to help others. The simple fact is that the vast majority
of people know very little about computers generally. So
if you want to help then you need a sense of what they'll
understand.

On Windows, knowing what a program is is one level of
understanding. If people actually know they're using one
of many word processors, that's relatively advanced. At
another level up, people know how to get and install a
program... And so on. If you don't figure out what level
someone is at then you probably can't help them, especially
if you have to do it over the phone.

But it also gets complicated. Example: A friend of mine
who teaches part time at a university was having trouble
getting her email via Thunderbird. We called tech support.
They said that no one uses email software anymore and
suggested that she get her email via the webmail portal
using Chrome.
So, here's a young college tech support person... the very
cliche of a computer expert. Yet they have no idea how
to configure email and don't even know browsers. They
do webmail in Chrome -- like most other people. That's
what they know. What if someone cares about privacy and
doesn't want to use Google products? What if someone wants
fullly functional email and not just crappy webpage email?
They're out of luck. These tech support people are oblivious
to such options! So that's a case where I need to understand
the limitations of their expertise.

Another example is you. You say you think IV is
"unconventional". You use MS Office. (Which you don't even
distinguish as one possible office program, calling it simply
"Office".) You use it for work and that's all you care about.
So that's your level of expertise, which is fine. People like
you are why I have Libre Office. They send me DOCX files
and just assume that everyone can read DOCX files. They
either assume everyone has the latest MS Office, or they
don't even know that much and simply assume that "Word"
is part of all computers.
That's an interesting case. It's the professional class of
business computer users who are very adept at the specific
job they do and may even write macros, but are not "power
users" in any other respect, usually knowing nothing of
other aspects of Windows computers.

So... I don't know why you're hanging around here. Presumably
you were reading the photo newsgroup. Most of us in the
Windows group just like to use and understand Windows
as a tool. If you're not interested in that then you don't
have to join in.

Personally, I'm in the middle of looking for the best free
option to convert HTML to PDF. Why? Because sometimes
I want to do that and it's worth it to me to find the best
option for future use. I've found some options, but so far
nothing that just does the job and does it dependably, without
screwing up CSS translation or some such. I want something
that just works... like IrfanView. :) Then I'll save the installer
and make backups of it, so that I can always have that
software.

In article <t7fvig$c3h$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Personally, I'm in the middle of looking for the best free
> option to convert HTML to PDF.

use whatever browser you normally do and print to pdf. done.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2022 12:24:12 -0400, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <t7fvig$c3h$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
><mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I'm in the middle of looking for the best free
>> option to convert HTML to PDF.
>
>use whatever browser you normally do and print to pdf. done.

Far too simple for these obsessive nerds. If it just works, they
don't want to know.

Meanwhile, those who use their computers to actually get stuff done
instead of dedicating their lives to interminable ways of finding the
hardest possible way of doing simple things just get on with their
lives.

On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 12:00:12 -0400, "Mayayana"
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

><none@given.com> wrote
>
>| > OK. So you resent people knowledgeable about using computers....
>|
>| Not at all. But what makes you think that you're particularly
>| "knowledgeable" about computers?
>
> I make no claims about expertise.

That'd be why you go on about "noobs", then.

> This started as a discussion about how
>to help others.

No -- it started with "What is a good noob test of whether someone
knows Windows"

And it wasn't about "how to help others". It was about parading
familiarity with Irfanview. Apparently the only acceptable image
viewer in the world.

> The simple fact is that the vast majority
>of people know very little about computers generally.

The vast majority also have no idea how an automobile functions. Yet
they can drive to anywhere they want to go.

> On Windows, knowing what a program is is one level of
>understanding. If people actually know they're using one
>of many word processors, that's relatively advanced.

No, it merely shows that they've seen more than one word processor.
It's not a good reason to write letters in Notepad.

> But it also gets complicated. Example: A friend of mine
>who teaches part time at a university was having trouble
>getting her email via Thunderbird. We called tech support.
>They said that no one uses email software anymore and
>suggested that she get her email via the webmail portal
>using Chrome.

One example of stupidity is not the world.

>
> Another example is you. You say you think IV is
>"unconventional". You use MS Office. (Which you don't even
>distinguish as one possible office program, calling it simply
>"Office".)

That's because the name is universally understood in the business
world. Where its use is pretty well universal.

> You use it for work and that's all you care about.

That is rather the point, is it not?

>So that's your level of expertise, which is fine. People like
>you are why I have Libre Office.

My commiserations. But it's not up to snuff in the business world.

> They send me DOCX files>and just assume that everyone can read DOCX files.

And in the business world, invariably they can. Unless they've
deliberately chosen to use non-standard software in a world where
there are common standards..

> So... I don't know why you're hanging around here.

Because it's rec.photo.digital. Bragging about your self-declares
"computer expertise" is really pretty irrelevant here. If amusing...

>If you're not interested in that then you don't
>have to join in.

There comes a point when bullshit has to be called.

> Personally, I'm in the middle of looking for the best free
>option to convert HTML to PDF. Why? Because sometimes
>I want to do that and it's worth it to me to find the best
>option for future use. I've found some options, but so far
>nothing that just does the job and does it dependably, without
>screwing up CSS translation or some such. I want something
>that just works..

So do what everyone else with a bit of computer expertise does --
simply print to PDF. Job done. But then it would all be just too
easy, wouldn't it?

Bullwinkle <Bullwinkle@invalid.invalid> posted this:

> In article <XnsAEA95A6151E8BOhmmmmmmm@85.12.62.254>, Breeder_Bucky-
> Breeder@That's.my.name_Don't.wear.it.out says...
>>
>> John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> posted this
>> via news:t72pe6$2e6f5$1@news.mixmin.net:
>>
>> > I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>> > them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
>> > level.
>>
>> I just talked to a person who has a graduate degree in Photoshop
>> (Graphic Design) and a master's degree in computer engineering. He
>> currently supervises the regional office of a national corporation
>> specializing in CAD, architecture, and mechanical engineering (graphics
>> and 3D rendering) using various Linux, Mac, and Windows (10 & 11) OSs
>> on several networks. He's also a computer systems analyst, engineer,
>> and network administrator.
>>
>> To test your little test, I asked him if he had Irfanview installed on
>> any of his computer systems.
>>
>> He said, "Urbanview? What the fuuk are you talking about, Bucky? Just
>> because you're banging my little sister doesn't mean I want to play
>> vague riddle games with you."
>>
>> To be fair, we had been drinking a bit in a rowdy bar... instead of my
>> using the phone to apply the "test". I believe he might have been
>> subconsciously a little jealous of me because his sister is quite a
>> luscious, voluptuous, drop-dead beautiful babe and sexual relations
>> between siblings simply is not tolerated in our society. Besides, I
>> doubt if she'd be interested in him whereas she has/had me.
>>
>> The moral of the story is: "While knowledge is a variable that cannot
>> be measured in terms of freeware graphics programs, Irfanview can help
>> suss out deeply suppressed inclinations of incest."
>>
>> Hope this hleps.
>
> Quite creative. Does she crap in your bed like Amber?

She certainly could if she wanted to! ;^�

--

I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^;

And *NO*, that is *NOT* a Jedi Light Saber I have in my pocket!

But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm happy to see you either.

On 5/06/2022 12:42 am, Mayayana wrote:
> "geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>
> | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
> | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
> |
>
> That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
> letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
> that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
> keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
> encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
> Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
> mess of files.)
>
> For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
> reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
> the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
> Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
> have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
> Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
> ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
> is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
> I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
> I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
> But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
> universal.
>
>

Bloat ? You click the icon and a second or two later you can do
anything you can imagine. How is that a problem, or somehow inefficient?
Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....

geoff

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 16:03:49 +1200, geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org>
wrote:

>Bloat ? You click the icon and a second or two later you can do
>anything you can imagine. How is that a problem, or somehow inefficient?

What offends him is that it's all too easy. Anyone can do it just
like that, and that takes all the arcane wizardry of the 1990s away.

> Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
>aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....

It can take these nerds a long, long time to realize that computer
resources haven't been an issue for decades now.

El Sun, 05 Jun 2022 07:09:45 +0200, none escribió:

> It can take these nerds a long, long time to realize that computer
> resources haven't been an issue for decades now.

Jumpers for goalposts.

A big part of my working life was spent trying to keep TSRs tiny and
optimising code to use 2 or 3 less clock cycles.

Ah well, we dinosaurs will soon be just a memory. And don't talk to me
about memory. Who the hell is going to need more than 512kB?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

On 5 Jun 2022 07:24:54 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Sun, 05 Jun 2022 07:09:45 +0200, none escribió:
>
>> It can take these nerds a long, long time to realize that computer
>> resources haven't been an issue for decades now.
>
>
>Ah well, we dinosaurs will soon be just a memory. And don't talk to me
>about memory. Who the hell is going to need more than 512kB?

The past is a different country. And most of us don't live there
anymore.

In article <t7fjuv$4ih$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana wrote...
>
> "geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>
> | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
> | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
> |
>
> That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
> letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
> that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
> keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
> encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
> Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
> mess of files.)
>
> For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
> reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
> the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
> Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
> have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
> Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
> ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
> is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
> I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
> I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
> But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
> universal.

If, like me, you've accumulated (ongoing) a vast array of small scraps of
information, have a look at OneNote - comes with Windows 10 and also available
for other versions of Windows, Macs, Android, etc. I'm only sorry I ignored it
for so long. Here's one of many YouTube introductions, this one from one of
the very best online instructors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poepoh1b_3k

Any new information goes in as a new page, and may later get organised into the
structure of sections, subsections, pages and paragraphs I've built up over a
few years. And it can all be interlinked as appropriate, as can external files
and URLs. Search is very good - especially if you tag things e.g. #builders.
Full format control over text; images can be imported (and text from them
grabbed). It can even add jump-to links in audio as you write notes while
listening.

It makes everything easier to find!

--

Phil, London

"Philip Herlihy" <PhillipHerlihy@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote
| | If, like me, you've accumulated (ongoing) a vast array of small scraps of
| information, have a look at OneNote - comes with Windows 10 and also
available
| for other versions of Windows, Macs, Android, etc.

Thanks. I never knew what OneNote was, though I've
seen it mentioned. But I've never felt a need for that
kind of organizer. And of course it would only be as good
as my data entry efforts.

I use multiple partitons, lots of specific folders and
subfolders... so I pretty much know where things are.
If I can't find something I use Agent Ransack, but I don't
need that very often.

Since so much is in plain text (code snippets, scripts,
articles, etc.) it's easy to search. And all of that will be
narrowed down a great deal by the folder hierarchy. I also
have numerous entries on my SendTo context menu: A
code menu with 3 submenus, a Privacy menu, Security,
Hardware, and so on. So I read about something like another
Google spying scandal, I copy and paste the article, save
it with a relevant title, right-click, Send To -> Privacy.
(I might later transfer it to the "Google privacy" subfolder.)

I suppose that as I get older I might want an organizer,
but then I expect I'll forget what I'm looking for, anyway. :)

"geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote

| Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
| aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....
|

That's one way to look at it. Why clean up the coffee
cups and McDonalds wrappers in your back seat if they're
not overflowing over into the front and covering the brake
pedal? Why wash dishes when there's still room in the sink?

That approach works for some. I once even had a
girlfriend who would clean the house and then put all the
clutter back. Apparently it felt cozy to her to not be
able to see the coffee table surface.

Personally I like efficiency
and organization. And even on modern computers, bloat
becomes a problem. That's why programs like MS Word
load so much crap at boot -- so they can *appear* to
not need so much time to get up off the floor.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 08:53:51 -0400, "Mayayana"
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> And even on modern computers, bloat
>becomes a problem.

What problem, exactly? This is like a millionaire worrying about
spending 3 cents too much for a Cadillac.

> That's why programs like MS Word
>load so much crap at boot -- so they can *appear* to
>not need so much time to get up off the floor.

Why would you want to waste time getting something you use a lot "up
off the floor" every time?

And why do you think that's a problem when modern machines have more
than enough poke to handle it all with ease and without breaking
sweat? A lot more efficient. That's what they're built for.

I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save".

On Jun 5, 2022, none@given.com wrote
(in article<emap9h5447cje0kpajl100v29q2anp2fml@4ax.com>):

> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 08:53:51 -0400, "Mayayana"
> <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
> > And even on modern computers, bloat
> > becomes a problem.
>
> What problem, exactly? This is like a millionaire worrying about
> spending 3 cents too much for a Cadillac.
>
> > That's why programs like MS Word
> > load so much crap at boot -- so they can *appear* to
> > not need so much time to get up off the floor.
>
> Why would you want to waste time getting something you use a lot "up
> off the floor" every time?
>
> And why do you think that's a problem when modern machines have more
> than enough poke to handle it all with ease and without breaking
> sweat? A lot more efficient. That's what they're built for.
>
> I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save”.

Isn’t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient hardware. So
what applies to “modern machines”, might not apply to him.

In article <0001HW.284CF0B20048B36230A98D38F@news-us.newsgroup.ninja>,
Bill W <nothing@nowhere.com> wrote:

> > On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 08:53:51 -0400, "Mayayana"
> > <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> > Why would you want to waste time getting something you use a lot "up
> > off the floor" every time?
> >
> > And why do you think that's a problem when modern machines have more
> > than enough poke to handle it all with ease and without breaking
> > sweat? A lot more efficient. That's what they're built for.
> >
> > I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save².
>
> Isn¹t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient hardware. So
> what applies to ³modern machines², might not apply to him.

he does use xp, although he claims to have a win10 box for zoom or
watching videos. he also has a raspberry pi, for which he overpaid.

i seem to recall his hard drive being in in the megabyte range, and he
backs up 'everything' on a single cd-rom, with room to spare.

On 6/5/2022 10:09 AM, Bill W wrote:
> On Jun 5, 2022, none@given.com wrote
> (in article<emap9h5447cje0kpajl100v29q2anp2fml@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 08:53:51 -0400, "Mayayana"
>> <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>
>>> And even on modern computers, bloat
>>> becomes a problem.
>>
>> What problem, exactly? This is like a millionaire worrying about
>> spending 3 cents too much for a Cadillac.
>>
>>> That's why programs like MS Word
>>> load so much crap at boot -- so they can *appear* to
>>> not need so much time to get up off the floor.
>>
>> Why would you want to waste time getting something you use a lot "up
>> off the floor" every time?
>>
>> And why do you think that's a problem when modern machines have more
>> than enough poke to handle it all with ease and without breaking
>> sweat? A lot more efficient. That's what they're built for.
>>
>> I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save”.
>
> Isn’t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient hardware. So
> what applies to “modern machines”, might not apply to him.

At a guess, like most people, you use what you like.

Until my Core2 motherboard broke, I was using WinXP too.
And the hardware was good enough (8GB of RAM) to run
Win8.1 and Win10 too. I could switch drives and run any
of those, but WinXP was the daily driver (4GB for OS,
4GB for RAMDisk).

Not everyone like OSes that are constantly scanning
stuff or "must be run with an MSA".

The new setup may on the surface, be more sophisticated,
but all it takes is a couple half-finished software mediated
features to ruin it. My VirtualBox on this machine doesn't
run Guests as well as Linux and VMM or QEMU-KVM do. At
first it was fine, but some "update" has ruined it again.

Modern machines are limited to running whatever the
manufacturer limits them to. Intel does not provide
Windows 7 drivers for anything. This limits what it is
practical to run. If you happened to not like the new
stuff, you've then got a problem. (Win7 users need
USB3 drivers which are not in-box in Windows 7. USB3
drivers are provided by Microsoft for 8/8.1/10/11.)

Paul

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 12:12:35 +0100, Philip Herlihy
<PhillipHerlihy@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote:

>In article <t7fjuv$4ih$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana wrote...
>>
>> "geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>>
>> | I use Word all day. It's easier than having to decide if Notepad with do
>> | the job, or if Wordpad would be required.
>> |
>>
>> That makes sense for people who write a lot of formal
>> letters. Though I don't appreciate getting a short note
>> that I need to crank up Libre Office to read. For DOC I
>> keep a VBScript on my desktop to translate them. (DOC
>> encoding is now public.) But for DOCX I can't do that.
>> Even opening a DOCX as ZIP, it's a surprisingly complicated
>> mess of files.)
>>
>> For those of us who rarely write a formal letter, there's no
>> reason to install Word or to have all that bloat loaded all
>> the time. I keep a lot of plain text files. Notes. Records.
>> Articles I read online that I copied and pasted. And I often
>> have instances open with a URL, a note I'm writing, etc.
>> Like a visible, multiple clipboard. Basic English
>> ANSI is very efficient and compact. And reading in Notepad
>> is very comfortable. Usually if I want a bit more formatting
>> I'll just make a quick HTML file. I can also send that to others.
>> I would never assume other people can handle a DOC or DOCX.
>> But an HTML, or a DOC converted to PDF, is pretty much
>> universal.
>
>If, like me, you've accumulated (ongoing) a vast array of small scraps of
>information, have a look at OneNote - comes with Windows 10 and also available
>for other versions of Windows, Macs, Android, etc. I'm only sorry I ignored it
>for so long.

Yes, OneNote is a good choice. I use it a lot.

Another choice is the third-party program EverNote, which is very
similar. I used it for a couple of years before I switched to OneNote.
I switched because I was having problems with EverNote losing some
notes. Since not everyone has my problems, EverNote is also worth
looking into.

> Here's one of many YouTube introductions, this one from one of
>the very best online instructors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poepoh1b_3k
>
>Any new information goes in as a new page, and may later get organised into the
>structure of sections, subsections, pages and paragraphs I've built up over a
>few years. And it can all be interlinked as appropriate, as can external files
>and URLs. Search is very good - especially if you tag things e.g. #builders.
>Full format control over text; images can be imported (and text from them
>grabbed). It can even add jump-to links in audio as you write notes while
>listening.
>
>It makes everything easier to find!

"Bill W" <nothing@nowhere.com> wrote

| > I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save”.
| | Isn’t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient hardware.
So
| what applies to “modern machines”, might not apply to him.
| |

I mostly use XP, but it's a machine I built in 2015, with 8-core
AMD 3.3 GHz. Nearly everything is instant, faster than my
Win7 or Win10 machines. The Win7, especially, is slow booting.
Though Libre Office Writer takes 2-3 seconds to show up on XP,
and Firefox is about the same. Because I don't allow either to
load their fast start crap.

I don't subscribe to the idea that there's no need to keep
things clean just because we have plenty of space to dump.
With the speed of hardware these days, nothing should ever
have any lag, but programmers get more sloppy when they feel
they can afford to.

There's also the issue of software quality. This started with talking
about how IrfanView is compact. That's not just about saving
space and gaining speed. It's also about competence. The IV
developer knows how to actually write software on Windows.
He's not using Python or .Net to call into Qt or ImageMagick,
wrapping the API in multiple layers of bloat.

Remember Longhorn in 2005? It was a big flop because, as the
MS people themselves put it, the hardware didn't yet exist that
could handle the stupendous bloat of an OS running as a .Net
wrapper around the API... By 2007, the hardware that could support
Aero was new. Hence the Vista non-Aero version. That pattern is
always happening: Capacity is degraded by laziness and sloppiness
and dumb design. (Aero needs constant painting of the GUI with
alpha channel calculations and rounded corners on windows, for
example. Why? Because it's cool to see folder frames that look like
you're peeking through grass?)... When Win8 came out with Metro,
that was another mess that could only run on new hardware. Many
people in nwsgroups now complain about slow browsers, despite
having a new machine and some ridiculous amount of RAM. Why?
Because websites are taking that same approach of sloppy
coding, loading webpages that are running more executable code
than most software programs.

People with 2 TB hard disks buy an external drive to supplement
it because they can't be bothered to figure out whether they
really need all of their 40,000 vacation photos. You could say,
"What's the problem? Hard disks are cheap." Or you could say,
"Why waste money being a slob?" Two views. The latter makes
more sense to me. :)

In any case, "none.given" is like nospam on a bad day. He's
only here to argue nonsense and insult people. The photo group
seems to have more than its share of cranks.

In article <t7iin5$mh9$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> I mostly use XP, but it's a machine I built in 2015, with 8-core
> AMD 3.3 GHz.

right after xp was eol'ed. good timing!

On 6/06/2022 12:53 am, Mayayana wrote:
> "geoff" <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote
>
> | Who cares what extra maybe installed that you may not nee?. HDDs
> | aren't 10MB and slow for quite a while now ....
> |
>
> That's one way to look at it. Why clean up the coffee
> cups and McDonalds wrappers in your back seat if they're
> not overflowing over into the front and covering the brake
> pedal? Why wash dishes when there's still room in the sink?
>
> That approach works for some. I once even had a
> girlfriend who would clean the house and then put all the
> clutter back. Apparently it felt cozy to her to not be
> able to see the coffee table surface.
>
> Personally I like efficiency
> and organization. And even on modern computers, bloat
> becomes a problem. That's why programs like MS Word
> load so much crap at boot -- so they can *appear* to
> not need so much time to get up off the floor.

Whatever makes you feel superior in some way. Enjoy the buzz.

I don't have any problem with what I use, and don't find an issue with
perceived (size) bloat, speed of system boot , application start, or
operation.

geoff

On 6/06/2022 2:43 am, Paul wrote:
> On 6/5/2022 10:09 AM, Bill W wrote:
>> On Jun 5, 2022, none@given.com wrote
>> (in article<emap9h5447cje0kpajl100v29q2anp2fml@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 08:53:51 -0400, "Mayayana"
>>> <mayayana@invalid.nospam>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> And even on modern computers, bloat
>>>> becomes a problem.
>>>
>>> What problem, exactly? This is like a millionaire worrying about
>>> spending 3 cents too much for a Cadillac.
>>>
>>>> That's why programs like MS Word
>>>> load so much crap at boot -- so they can *appear* to
>>>> not need so much time to get up off the floor.
>>>
>>> Why would you want to waste time getting something you use a lot "up
>>> off the floor" every time?
>>>
>>> And why do you think that's a problem when modern machines have more
>>> than enough poke to handle it all with ease and without breaking
>>> sweat? A lot more efficient. That's what they're built for.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save”.
>>
>> Isn’t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient
>> hardware. So
>> what applies to “modern machines”, might not apply to him.
>
> At a guess, like most people, you use what you like.
>
> Until my Core2 motherboard broke, I was using WinXP too.
> And the hardware was good enough (8GB of RAM) to run
> Win8.1 and Win10 too. I could switch drives and run any
> of those, but WinXP was the daily driver (4GB for OS,
> 4GB for RAMDisk).
>
> Not everyone like OSes that are constantly scanning
> stuff or "must be run with an MSA".
>
> The new setup may on the surface, be more sophisticated,
> but all it takes is a couple half-finished software mediated
> features to ruin it. My VirtualBox on this machine doesn't
> run Guests as well as  Linux and VMM or QEMU-KVM do. At
> first it was fine, but some "update" has ruined it again.
>
> Modern machines are limited to running whatever the
> manufacturer limits them to. Intel does not provide
> Windows 7 drivers for anything. This limits what it is
> practical to run. If you happened to not like the new
> stuff, you've then got a problem. (Win7 users need
> USB3 drivers which are not in-box in Windows 7. USB3
> drivers are provided by Microsoft for 8/8.1/10/11.)
>
>    Paul
>
>

It what way does most of the above relate to 'modern machines ' ?

geoff

On 6/06/2022 3:39 am, Mayayana wrote:
> "Bill W" <nothing@nowhere.com> wrote
>
> | > I'm wondering what you do with all the resources you "save”.
> |
> | Isn’t he still using XP? If so, he might also be using ancient hardware.
> So
> | what applies to “modern machines”, might not apply to him.
> |
> |
>
> I mostly use XP, but it's a machine I built in 2015, with 8-core
> AMD 3.3 GHz. Nearly everything is instant, faster than my
> Win7 or Win10 machines. The Win7, especially, is slow booting.
> Though Libre Office Writer takes 2-3 seconds to show up on XP,
> and Firefox is about the same. Because I don't allow either to
> load their fast start crap.

Why bother with a Win7 machine at all then ?

> I don't subscribe to the idea that there's no need to keep
> things clean just because we have plenty of space to dump.
> With the speed of hardware these days, nothing should ever
> have any lag, but programmers get more sloppy when they feel
> they can afford to.

Get up to date. Practically nothing has 'lag', even with
common-or-garden level PCs.

> There's also the issue of software quality. This started with talking
> about how IrfanView is compact. That's not just about saving
> space and gaining speed. It's also about competence. The IV
> developer knows how to actually write software on Windows.
> He's not using Python or .Net to call into Qt or ImageMagick,
> wrapping the API in multiple layers of bloat.

Pleased for him. He must be unique.

> Remember Longhorn in 2005? > It was a big flop because, as the

No.

> MS people themselves put it, the hardware didn't yet exist that
> could handle the stupendous bloat of an OS running as a .Net
> wrapper around the API... By 2007, the hardware that could support
> Aero was new. Hence the Vista non-Aero version. That pattern is
> always happening: Capacity is degraded by laziness and sloppiness
> and dumb design. (Aero needs constant painting of the GUI with
> alpha channel calculations and rounded corners on windows, for
> example. Why? Because it's cool to see folder frames that look like
> you're peeking through grass?)... When Win8 came out with Metro,
> that was another mess that could only run on new hardware. Many
> people in nwsgroups now complain about slow browsers, despite
> having a new machine and some ridiculous amount of RAM. Why?
> Because websites are taking that same approach of sloppy
> coding, loading webpages that are running more executable code
> than most software programs.
>
> People with 2 TB hard disks buy an external drive to supplement
> it because they can't be bothered to figure out whether they
> really need all of their 40,000 vacation photos. You could say,
> "What's the problem? Hard disks are cheap." Or you could say,
> "Why waste money being a slob?" Two views. The latter makes
> more sense to me. :)

1TB and don't have that problem. Including a shit-load of stuff I should
have deleted, but have better things to do at the moment.

geoff

On 2022-06-05, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Thanks. I never knew what OneNote was, though I've
> seen it mentioned. But I've never felt a need for that
> kind of organizer. And of course it would only be as good
> as my data entry efforts.

I use the old Windows 3.1 "Cardfile" program for that - the only Windows
software that I still use regularly. Runs handily under WINE. :)

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On 6/06/2022 3:57 pm, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-06-05, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>> Thanks. I never knew what OneNote was, though I've
>> seen it mentioned. But I've never felt a need for that
>> kind of organizer. And of course it would only be as good
>> as my data entry efforts.
>
> I use the old Windows 3.1 "Cardfile" program for that - the only Windows
> software that I still use regularly. Runs handily under WINE. :)
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Reasons I won't be vaccinated -- https://tinyurl.com/ebty2dx3
Covid vaccines: experimental biology -- https://tinyurl.com/57mncfm5
The fraud of "Climate Change" -- https://RealClimateScience.com
There is no "climate crisis" -- https://climatedepot.com
Don't talk to cops! -- https://DontTalkToCops.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All in line with the 'rationale' of your sig.

geoff