On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>
>> My only hesitation with that is that I avoid
>> using credit cards online.
>
>It's a funny attitude given that pre the web we'd happily give our credit
>card details over the phone to complete strangers. Completely on trust with
>no encryption or any security.

Moreover, as far as I'm concerned, the web is the least likely place
for credit card information to be stolen. Most people who avoid using
credit cards online have no problem in a restaurant, giving a credit
card to a pimply-faced kid, who then takes it away to another room
where he can copy down all its information at his leisure.

One other point: one of the big advantages of using a credit card to
make a payment, on the web or not, is that if a fraudulent payment
comes through, it takes only a few seconds to phone the credit card
company and have it canceled. A credit card is safer to use than a
debit card.

Ken Blake wrote:

> A credit card is safer to use than a debit card.

Everyone says that, just as everyone says you shouldn't eat before going
swimming or you'll get cramps and drown, or just as people say you should
cover your head in the rain or you'll catch a cold...

Where...

I'm sure there is some fundamental truth in all those statements...

But...

When _I_ have problems with my bank debit card, "my bank" seems to give me
the same (or similar) courtesies as does my "real" credit card company.

I'm _sure_ the _laws_ are different on debit cards (which are like checks),
versus credit cards (which are not all that much like checks); but in my
humble experience, at least so far, I haven't had a bad experience with my
debit card with respect to fraudulent use.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

On 7/10/2022 7:28 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

> Moreover, as far as I'm concerned, the web is the least likely place
> for credit card information to be stolen.

Agreed.

> Most people who avoid using credit cards online

I suspect that only a very few paranoids still are afraid to use their
CCs online these days.

> have no problem in a restaurant, giving a credit card to a
> pimply-faced kid, who then takes it away to another room where he
> can copy down all its information at his leisure.

I have my CC set to text me all charges over $10. So I would IMMEDIATELY
know of any fraud.

> One other point: one of the big advantages of using a credit card to
> make a payment, on the web or not, is that if a fraudulent payment
> comes through, it takes only a few seconds to phone the credit card
> company and have it canceled.

Then I could IMMEDIATELY use the CC's phone app to put on a stop on the
card. However I've never had any problems in all my considerable years
of using a CC so it's not a big part of my every day paranoia...

> A credit card is safer to use than a debit card.

Agreed. The only thing I use my debit card for is to get cash at the
ATM. Cause there's no cashback with a debit card. Over a grand back for
me using my CC every year...

In article <taeter$1dqhi$1@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> > A credit card is safer to use than a debit card.
>
> Agreed. The only thing I use my debit card for is to get cash at the
> ATM. Cause there's no cashback with a debit card. Over a grand back for
> me using my CC every year...

a few debit cards offer rewards, and a few merchants have a lower
'convenience fee' for debit card use, and in some cases, won't accept a
credit card at all.

On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:06:51 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>On 7/10/2022 7:28 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Moreover, as far as I'm concerned, the web is the least likely place
>> for credit card information to be stolen.
>
>Agreed.
>
>> Most people who avoid using credit cards online
>
>I suspect that only a very few paranoids still are afraid to use their
>CCs online these days.

I'm not sure. I know several.

>> have no problem in a restaurant, giving a credit card to a
>> pimply-faced kid, who then takes it away to another room where he
>> can copy down all its information at his leisure.
>
>I have my CC set to text me all charges over $10. So I would IMMEDIATELY
>know of any fraud.

Yes, that's one way to do it. Another is to use Quicken, and have it
update your accounts every morning. That's what I do.

>
>> One other point: one of the big advantages of using a credit card to
>> make a payment, on the web or not, is that if a fraudulent payment
>> comes through, it takes only a few seconds to phone the credit card
>> company and have it canceled.
>
>Then I could IMMEDIATELY use the CC's phone app to put on a stop on the
>card. However I've never had any problems in all my considerable years
>of using a CC so it's not a big part of my every day paranoia...

Same for me.

>> A credit card is safer to use than a debit card.
>
>Agreed. The only thing I use my debit card for is to get cash at the
>ATM.

Same for me, but I very seldom get cash because I seldom use it..

>Cause there's no cashback with a debit card. Over a grand back for
>me using my CC every year...

Yes, or alternatively use a card that gets airline mileage, as I do
with my Citibank American Airlines card. An airline mile is usually
less valuable than cash back if you use it for domestic travel, but
it's usually more valuable if you use it for international travel.

I never use a debit card to pay for anything, almost never use cash
for anything, and only use checks to pay a few service people who
don't take credit cards. I pay for everything else with a credit card.

On 7/10/2022 9:24 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:06:51 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> I have my CC set to text me all charges over $10. So I would
>> IMMEDIATELY know of any fraud.

> Yes, that's one way to do it. Another is to use Quicken, and have it
> update your accounts every morning. That's what I do.

I'm guessing that a perp could make several fraud charges on my CC in
the same day. I'd rather know immediately. YMMV.

> I never use a debit card to pay for anything, almost never use cash
> for anything, and only use checks to pay a few service people who
> don't take credit cards.

Ditto for me. But when you need cash, you need it. Same with a check.
Just stuck a check in a grandkid's college grad card yesterday...

"AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote

| I suspect that only a very few paranoids still are afraid to use their
| CCs online these days.
| | > have no problem in a restaurant, giving a credit card to a
| > pimply-faced kid, who then takes it away to another room where he
| > can copy down all its information at his leisure.
|

Who uses CCs in restaurants? For that matter, who eats in
restaurants? I get takeout Thai very, very rarely. The food is just
not that good that I want to eat out. When I do go to a restaurant,
I pay cash.

| I have my CC set to text me all charges over $10. So I would IMMEDIATELY
| know of any fraud.
|

So you think it's safe, but you confirm every charge
by phone, which means you also have to carry a cellphone
turned on. Which means you don't consider it safe at all.
You're double-checking every purchase in real time.

I just avoid the whole thing, for security, privacy, and also
to give business to small companies. For example, if I find
something I want on Amazon I'll look for a way to buy it locally
with cash. If I have to buy online, I'll look for a company with
a phone #. Not only to avoid CCs online but also so that I'm
not stuck with email if there's a problem. I know there are
actually humans there. And to avoid doing business with the
likes of Amazon. If everyone buys through them for convenience
then they'll be the only place to buy.

As it is, I buy almost everything with cash. More private.
More safe. These days, online purchases are probably
fairly safe, but there's the problem of online databases.
Theft of credit card data happens a lot. And as corvid pointed
out, it's not always easy and fast to have a charge cancelled.
Even when you do, you don't always know how it happened.
Someone buys a bicycle online, say, with your card. You reject
the charge. Hopefully that works out. But who bought the bike and
how did they get your CC number? It could have been from online
commerce. It could have been from a hacked card reader in a
retail store. Someone might have even looked over your shoulder
at a store checkout. (Oprah Winfrey once got scammed that way.
It was a black woman who asked her to allow it "for a sister" when
she got caught. Oprah's response: "You're not my sister!" :)

So you don't really know how safe online commerce is.

Then there's the issue of banks getting a cut they have no
reason to get. CCs charge a fee. Debit cards charge a fee.
Additonal middleman operations like Apple Pay or Square charge
yet another fee. Why give them that money? Because you're afraid
to carry cash?

If you don't care about privacy and highly value convenience,
then CCs probably make sense. My priorities are different.

I also avoid PayPal because years ago they were providing
payment service for shareware authors and it was a fiasco. People
who signed up with them had to let PP control the bank account,
so that anyone who refused payment at any time could be refunded.
They weren't just taking payments. They were being a business
partner with more power than the business. I'm no longer selling
my shareware, but I still don't trust them.

In article <taf2hb$1ear9$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Who uses CCs in restaurants? For that matter, who eats in
> restaurants?

many people do. that's why they're often crowded, sometimes with a line
waiting to be seated.

> I get takeout Thai very, very rarely. The food is just
> not that good that I want to eat out.

you're going to the wrong restaurants.

> When I do go to a restaurant,
> I pay cash.

you're the exception.

> As it is, I buy almost everything with cash. More private.
> More safe.

except when there's a problem that the seller refuses to resolve. they
have your cash, so you're no longer important.

if you pay with a credit card, the card issuer will handle most
problems, including refunding the full purchase price if it can't be
otherwise resolved. merchants don't like chargebacks. too many of them
and they risk losing their merchant agreement.

also, many cards offer extended warranties, price protection, etc.

> These days, online purchases are probably
> fairly safe, but there's the problem of online databases.
> Theft of credit card data happens a lot.

that does happen, but not 'a lot'.

apple/google pay and virtual card numbers completely eliminate that
problem because any card numbers the bad guys might get cannot be used.

> And as corvid pointed
> out, it's not always easy and fast to have a charge cancelled.

what he pointed out is that it's very easy to dispute a charge.

>
> Then there's the issue of banks getting a cut they have no
> reason to get. CCs charge a fee. Debit cards charge a fee.
> Additonal middleman operations like Apple Pay or Square charge
> yet another fee. Why give them that money? Because you're afraid
> to carry cash?

anyone who offers a service is entitled to be paid.

the merchant pays the fees in almost every case.

cash customers pay the same price as card customers (with rare
exception, such as fuel which offers a cash discount), so you're paying
fees without getting any benefit.

a few merchants will pass the transaction fees to the buyer as a
'convenience fee', which is disclosed up front.

> If you don't care about privacy and highly value convenience,
> then CCs probably make sense. My priorities are different.

your priorities may be different, but they're based on irrational fear
instead of facts.

> I also avoid PayPal because years ago they were providing
> payment service for shareware authors and it was a fiasco. People
> who signed up with them had to let PP control the bank account,
> so that anyone who refused payment at any time could be refunded.

that's false.

paypal does not control anyone's bank account nor is using it a fiasco
for either the seller or a buyer.

> They weren't just taking payments. They were being a business
> partner with more power than the business. I'm no longer selling
> my shareware, but I still don't trust them.

how many people actually bought your shareware?

On 7/10/2022 10:33 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote

> Who uses CCs in restaurants?

Funny you should ask. I just now got home from Texas Roadhouse. Paid
with a CC using a box on the table so that the crooked waitress was
thwarted in stealing my number...

> For that matter, who eats in restaurants?

I do. Usually every day.

> I get takeout Thai very, very rarely. The food is just not that good
> that I want to eat out. When I do go to a restaurant, I pay cash.

YMMV.

>> I have my CC set to text me all charges over $10. So I would
>> IMMEDIATELY know of any fraud.

> So you think it's safe, but you confirm every charge by phone,

Trust and verify...

> which means you also have to carry a cellphone turned on.

Doesn't everybody?

> Which means you don't consider it safe at all. You're
> double-checking every purchase in real time.

There are other advantages too. When I get the wife's charge's text beep
I know she is done shopping and it's time to go meet her for lunch at a
(gasp) local restaurant. (BTW with that text I also know how much she
spent... :)

> I just avoid the whole thing, for security, privacy, and also to
> give business to small companies.

Me too. Most of my local restaurants are small businesses (franchises).

> For example, if I find something I want on Amazon I'll look for a
> way to buy it locally with cash.

I haven't had any luck buying my ebooks that way...

> If I have to buy online, I'll look for a company with a phone #. Not
> only to avoid CCs online but also so that I'm not stuck with email
> if there's a problem. I know there are actually humans there.

I hate doing business with humans. Much easier on a app...

> And to avoid doing business with the likes of Amazon. If everyone
> buys through them for convenience then they'll be the only place to
> buy.

I've got several Amazon plants in my area. All those employees are
patronizing my local restaurants big time.

> As it is, I buy almost everything with cash. More private. More
> safe.

Safe? Lost cash isn't replaceable. CCs are...

> Theft of credit card data happens a lot.

Any proof?

> you don't really know how safe online commerce is.

And you don't really know how unsafe it is.

> Then there's the issue of banks getting a cut they have no reason to
> get. CCs charge a fee. Debit cards charge a fee. Additonal middleman
> operations like Apple Pay or Square charge yet another fee. Why give
> them that money? Because you're afraid to carry cash?

For the convenience? For us stockholders? You cash payers are paying the
same price (at most stores) as us CC users. But we're getting the
benefits. Love that cashback...

> If you don't care about privacy and highly value convenience, then
> CCs probably make sense. My priorities are different.

Obviously.

> I also avoid PayPal because years ago they were providing payment
> service for shareware authors and it was a fiasco. People who signed
> up with them had to let PP control the bank account, so that anyone
> who refused payment at any time could be refunded. They weren't just
> taking payments. They were being a business partner with more power
> than the business. I'm no longer selling my shareware, but I still
> don't trust them.

I generally just use one CC, though I have another as a backup. Why? The
initials are CB... ;)

On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:05:38 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>On 7/10/2022 10:33 AM, Mayayana wrote:
>> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote
>
>> Who uses CCs in restaurants?
>
>Funny you should ask. I just now got home from Texas Roadhouse. Paid
>with a CC using a box on the table so that the crooked waitress was
>thwarted in stealing my number...
>
>> For that matter, who eats in restaurants?
>
>I do. Usually every day.

I do too, but nowhere near as often as you do. Once every week or two
for me. If I were richer and less worried about calories, I would do
it every day too.

But I never eat in a Texas Roadhouse. I tried it once several years
ago and didn't like it at all.

If fact, I almost never eat in any chain restaurants, unless I'm
traveling and can't find any other choices. In my experience, they are
almost all poor choices.

>> I get takeout Thai very, very rarely. The food is just not that good
>> that I want to eat out.

There are lots of restaurants that are not takeout Thai .

>> When I do go to a restaurant, I pay cash.

As I said earlier, I never pay cash for *anything* unless it's my only
choice. As far as I'm concerned, it's the worst possible way to pay.

>YMMV.
>
>>> I have my CC set to text me all charges over $10. So I would
>>> IMMEDIATELY know of any fraud.
>
>> So you think it's safe, but you confirm every charge by phone,
>
>Trust and verify...

Yes. Safety is never absolute. Some things are safer than other, but
almost nothing is perfectly safe.

As far as I'm concerned, using a credit card is reasonably safe, but
as I said, not perfectly safe. But it's safer than cash.

That said, I've never had a fraudulent charge on a credit card.

>> which means you also have to carry a cellphone turned on.
>
>Doesn't everybody?

No. I don't understand why anyone would want to carry a cell phone not
turned on, but that's what my wife does.

>
>> Which means you don't consider it safe at all. You're
>> double-checking every purchase in real time.

Sigh. See above. Safety is not perfect. Double-checking is wise.

>There are other advantages too. When I get the wife's charge's text beep
>I know she is done shopping and it's time to go meet her for lunch at a
>(gasp) local restaurant. (BTW with that text I also know how much she
>spent... :)
>
>> I just avoid the whole thing, for security, privacy,

Credit cards are *more* secure than cash, not less secure. Cash can be
stolen. If a credit card is stolen, a phone call protects you against
losing any money.

>> and also to
>> give business to small companies.

Many, probably most, small companies these days take credit cards. I
had breakfast this morning at a small local restaurant, where as usual
I paid by credit card.

>Me too. Most of my local restaurants are small businesses (franchises).
>
>> For example, if I find something I want on Amazon I'll look for a
>> way to buy it locally with cash.

Your choice. If I find it locally, it will almost invariably be
considerably more expensive. Moreover it's much faster and more
convenient to have it delivered in two days rather than having to
drive somewhere, try to find it in the store, perhaps find that it's
out of stock, stand on line at the checkout counter, drag it to my
car, lift it and put it in the trunk (if it's big and heavy), drive it
home, and take it out of the trunk.

Except for food, I buy almost everything I buy on-line, at Amazon for
most things and at other web sites for others.

>I haven't had any luck buying my ebooks that way...

I never buy e-books. As I said earlier, I get them from my library
on-line, at no charge.

>> If I have to buy online, I'll look for a company with a phone #. Not
>> only to avoid CCs online but also so that I'm not stuck with email
>> if there's a problem. I know there are actually humans there.
>
>I hate doing business with humans. Much easier on a app...

Easier and much faster.

>> And to avoid doing business with the likes of Amazon. If everyone
>> buys through them for convenience then they'll be the only place to
>> buy.
>
>I've got several Amazon plants in my area. All those employees are
>patronizing my local restaurants big time.
>
>> As it is, I buy almost everything with cash. More private. More
>> safe.
>
>Safe? Lost cash isn't replaceable. CCs are...

And fraudulent charges don't have to be paid for.

>
>> Theft of credit card data happens a lot.
>
>Any proof?

I've never had a CC stolen. Neither has my wife nor any relatives or
friends that I know of. And if one is stolen, it's a minor
inconvenience, not a big loss.

>> you don't really know how safe online commerce is.
>
>And you don't really know how unsafe it is.

You are free to believe what you want, but it is *not* unsafe. It is
much safer than cash.

>> Then there's the issue of banks getting a cut they have no reason to
>> get. CCs charge a fee. Debit cards charge a fee. Additonal middleman
>> operations like Apple Pay or Square charge yet another fee. Why give
>> them that money? Because you're afraid to carry cash?
>
>For the convenience? For us stockholders? You cash payers are paying the
>same price (at most stores) as us CC users. But we're getting the
>benefits. Love that cashback...

Yes to all the above.

>> If you don't care about privacy and highly value convenience, then
>> CCs probably make sense.

Completely false.

>My priorities are different.
>
>Obviously.

Yes, obviously.

>> I also avoid PayPal because years ago they were providing payment
>> service for shareware authors and it was a fiasco. People who signed
>> up with them had to let PP control the bank account, so that anyone
>> who refused payment at any time could be refunded. They weren't just
>> taking payments. They were being a business partner with more power
>> than the business. I'm no longer selling my shareware, but I still
>> don't trust them.
>
>I generally just use one CC, though I have another as a backup. Why? The
>initials are CB... ;)

On 7/10/2022 2:26 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> I just now got home from Texas Roadhouse. Paid with a CC using a
>> box on the table so that the crooked waitress was thwarted in
>> stealing my number...

>> I eat in restaurants. Usually every day.

> I do too, but nowhere near as often as you do. Once every week or
> two for me. If I were richer and less worried about calories, I would
> do it every day too.

My meal today was listed as 310 calories on the menu.

> But I never eat in a Texas Roadhouse. I tried it once several years
> ago and didn't like it at all.

Wish that were the case with more folks here. It was packed today.

> If fact, I almost never eat in any chain restaurants, unless I'm
> traveling and can't find any other choices. In my experience, they
> are almost all poor choices.

YMMV.

> I've never had a fraudulent charge on a credit card.

Me neither.

> I don't understand why anyone would want to carry a cell phone not
> turned on, but that's what my wife does.

I don't get that many, but I need to be available for important calls.

> Credit cards are *more* secure than cash, not less secure. Cash can
> be stolen. If a credit card is stolen, a phone call protects you
> against losing any money.

In my case about 5 taps on my phone app shuts off my credit card.

> Many, probably most, small companies these days take credit cards. I
> had breakfast this morning at a small local restaurant, where as
> usual I paid by credit card.

Every business I've been in my area takes CCs. However the wife's
hairdresser doesn't take AMEX so she uses the backup.

> Except for food, I buy almost everything I buy on-line, at Amazon
> for most things and at other web sites for others.

Lots of boxes left on my stoop too...

>> I haven't had any luck buying my ebooks that way...

> I never buy e-books. As I said earlier, I get them from my library
> on-line, at no charge.

I have 3000+ lending books available with Prime but I still end up
buying some. I paid Kindle a whopping $1.98 for my latest 4 book set...

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <tae5ls$1beu8$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>> My only hesitation with that is that I avoid
>>> using credit cards online.
>>
>> It's a funny attitude given that pre the web we'd happily give our credit
>> card details over the phone to complete strangers. Completely on trust with
>> no encryption or any security.
>
> many paper bills have the option to write down a credit card number on
> the payment stub and then send it back, to be processed some days later
> whenever it arrives, hopefully for the correct amount.
>
> also, in most american restaurants, patrons give the physical card to
> an underpaid server, who walks away with it to run the transaction on a
> terminal that is not visible to the patron,

Indeed. A bit of surprise that. Last time I was in the US that happened to
me but their machine was down so they took down the number to charge it
later. Clearly, they made a mistake as I was never charged. A very nice
meal on the house. Very hospitable of them 🙂

I did leave a cash tip for the waitress so at least she got her money.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>
>>> My only hesitation with that is that I avoid
>>> using credit cards online.
>>
>> It's a funny attitude given that pre the web we'd happily give our credit
>> card details over the phone to complete strangers. Completely on trust with
>> no encryption or any security.
>
>
> Moreover, as far as I'm concerned, the web is the least likely place
> for credit card information to be stolen.

The thing to make sure to do is *not* save your CC details with the
merchant. Then if ever there's a hack you CC details won't be included.

> Most people who avoid using
> credit cards online have no problem in a restaurant, giving a credit
> card to a pimply-faced kid, who then takes it away to another room
> where he can copy down all its information at his leisure.

Skimming used to be huge problem in europe. Chip and PIN solved that. Now
with portable terminals being ubiquitous your card never leaves your
possession either.

> One other point: one of the big advantages of using a credit card to
> make a payment, on the web or not, is that if a fraudulent payment
> comes through, it takes only a few seconds to phone the credit card
> company and have it canceled. A credit card is safer to use than a
> debit card.

Yup.

On 11/07/2022 12:39, Chris wrote:
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My only hesitation with that is that I avoid
>>>> using credit cards online.
>>>
>>> It's a funny attitude given that pre the web we'd happily give our credit
>>> card details over the phone to complete strangers. Completely on trust with
>>> no encryption or any security.
>>
>>
>> Moreover, as far as I'm concerned, the web is the least likely place
>> for credit card information to be stolen.
>
> The thing to make sure to do is *not* save your CC details with the
> merchant. Then if ever there's a hack you CC details won't be included.
>
>> Most people who avoid using
>> credit cards online have no problem in a restaurant, giving a credit
>> card to a pimply-faced kid, who then takes it away to another room
>> where he can copy down all its information at his leisure.
>
> Skimming used to be huge problem in europe. Chip and PIN solved that. Now
> with portable terminals being ubiquitous your card never leaves your
> possession either.
>
>> One other point: one of the big advantages of using a credit card to
>> make a payment, on the web or not, is that if a fraudulent payment
>> comes through, it takes only a few seconds to phone the credit card
>> company and have it canceled. A credit card is safer to use than a
>> debit card.
>
> Yup.

More from the UK government!

https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/collection/top-tips-for-staying-secure-online

Anyone reading here using the newsgroups at news.dogagent.?

On 11/07/2022 12:47, David Brooks wrote:

> Anyone reading here using the newsgroups at news.dogagent.?

An interesting website to explore!

http://web.archive.org/web/20210414135801/http://dogagent.com/nindex.html

The icons/links still work!

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:05:38 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/2022 10:33 AM, Mayayana wrote:
>>> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>
>>> Who uses CCs in restaurants?
>>
>> Funny you should ask. I just now got home from Texas Roadhouse. Paid
>> with a CC using a box on the table so that the crooked waitress was
>> thwarted in stealing my number...
>>
>>> For that matter, who eats in restaurants?
>>
>> I do. Usually every day.
>
> I do too, but nowhere near as often as you do. Once every week or two
> for me. If I were richer and less worried about calories, I would do
> it every day too.

Eating in restaurants is a great way to support the local economy as well.

>>> Which means you don't consider it safe at all. You're
>>> double-checking every purchase in real time.
>
>
> Sigh. See above. Safety is not perfect. Double-checking is wise.

Indeed. We've always been advised to check our monthly statements. It's now
far easier. As often there were perfectly valid transactions which I
couldn't remember as the description was too vague.

>
>> There are other advantages too. When I get the wife's charge's text beep
>> I know she is done shopping and it's time to go meet her for lunch at a
>> (gasp) local restaurant. (BTW with that text I also know how much she
>> spent... :)
>>
>>> I just avoid the whole thing, for security, privacy,
>
> Credit cards are *more* secure than cash, not less secure. Cash can be
> stolen. If a credit card is stolen, a phone call protects you against
> losing any money.

Agree. Much harder to get a refund with cash, especially if you've lost the
receipt. Can't lose the receipt with a credit card.

"Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote

>> which means you also have to carry a cellphone turned on.
>
>Doesn't everybody?

| No. I don't understand why anyone would want to carry a cell phone not
| turned on, but that's what my wife does.
|

Finally I find an intelligent person. :)

Seriously, though, I'm surprised at how vehement people
are about this issue. When AJL answered I remembered he
was the religious fanatic who went on about credit card
praises about a month ago. This is a repeat debate. There
seems to be a growing segment of society who don't just
prefer CC, but are actually angry that cash still exists. Like
a Jehovah's witness, they want to tell me all the myriad
advantages of not going to Hell.

I consider such people to be lazy ostriches, but I know
that no insights will come of arguing about it. Cases can be
made to support both sides, depending on your priorities.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 11:56:58 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:05:38 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/10/2022 10:33 AM, Mayayana wrote:
>>>> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote
>>>
>>>> Who uses CCs in restaurants?
>>>
>>> Funny you should ask. I just now got home from Texas Roadhouse. Paid
>>> with a CC using a box on the table so that the crooked waitress was
>>> thwarted in stealing my number...
>>>
>>>> For that matter, who eats in restaurants?
>>>
>>> I do. Usually every day.
>>
>> I do too, but nowhere near as often as you do. Once every week or two
>> for me. If I were richer and less worried about calories, I would do
>> it every day too.
>
>Eating in restaurants is a great way to support the local economy as well.
>
>>>> Which means you don't consider it safe at all. You're
>>>> double-checking every purchase in real time.
>>
>>
>> Sigh. See above. Safety is not perfect. Double-checking is wise.
>
>Indeed. We've always been advised to check our monthly statements. It's now
>far easier.

Especially if you use Quicken. Using it, it typically takes me about
3-4 seconds to reconcile any account--CC, bank account, investments,
etc.

I have a lot of favorite programs I use, but the one that's head and
shoulders above all the others is Quicken.

On 7/11/2022 7:47 AM, David Brooks wrote:

>
> Anyone reading here using the newsgroups at news.dogagent.?

We all do.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/tgFqNy4R/reading-at-dogagent-is-fun-show-lizard-tail-to-enter.gif

It's very exclusive. But you can't come in.
No lizard tail.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to slither along. Hsss.

Do you have any <MID> from this server ???
I don't remember seeing any headers like that.

Paul

In article <tah268$1mj34$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> The thing to make sure to do is *not* save your CC details with the
> merchant. Then if ever there's a hack you CC details won't be included.

that's not an issue with virtual cards, which are linked to only one
merchant and can also be limited to a maximum amount (total or per
transaction).

if the merchant is hacked, the virtual card number will be useless
(except at that merchant).

virtual card numbers can also be disabled when not needed, making it
not usable anywhere, even at the same merchant. that means there's an
extra step to enable it prior to buying something, but if it's an
occasional purchase, it's not a big deal.

also, when the hack is announced (which could be some time after it
happens), the virtual card number can be destroyed without affecting
the main card number or any other virtual card.

> Skimming used to be huge problem in europe. Chip and PIN solved that. Now
> with portable terminals being ubiquitous your card never leaves your
> possession either.

nope. what solved skimming/shimming is contactless.

chip cards are still vulnerable.

<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/02/checkout-skimmers-powered-by-chip-c
ards/>

On 11/07/2022 14:55, Paul wrote:
> On 7/11/2022 7:47 AM, David Brooks wrote:
>
>>
>> Anyone reading here using the newsgroups at news.dogagent.?

> Do you have any <MID> from this server ???
> I don't remember seeing any headers like that.
>
>    Paul

I'll hunt around!

In the meantime, see ....

https://imgur.com/gallery/xtYuOnh

On 11/07/2022 14:55, Paul wrote:
> Do you have any <MID> from this server ???

Path: myplugbox.com!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Dave H" <pepedog@pepedog.com>
Newsgroups: banned
Subject: Are you banned?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 10:15:13 +0100
Organization: MyPlugBox
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <klo22l$vc3$1@zyxel.myplugbox.com>
Reply-To: "Dave H" <pepedog@pepedog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dave-vista.myplugbox.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed;
charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: zyxel.myplugbox.com 1367313301 32131 192.168.5.224 (30 Apr 2013
09:15:01 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@zyxel.myplugbox.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:15:01 +0000 (UTC)
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463
Xref: myplugbox.com banned:1

You must contact your group admin to find out
Dave

--
HTH
David B.

On 7/11/2022 11:52 AM, David Brooks wrote:
> On 11/07/2022 14:55, Paul wrote:
>> Do you have any <MID> from this server ???
>
> Path: myplugbox.com!.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: "Dave H" <pepedog@pepedog.com>
> Newsgroups: banned
> Subject: Are you banned?
> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 10:15:13 +0100
> Organization: MyPlugBox
> Lines: 2
> Message-ID: <klo22l$vc3$1@zyxel.myplugbox.com>
> Reply-To: "Dave H" <pepedog@pepedog.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: dave-vista.myplugbox.com
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>     format=flowed;
>     charset="iso-8859-1";
>     reply-type=original
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Trace: zyxel.myplugbox.com 1367313301 32131 192.168.5.224 (30 Apr 2013 09:15:01 GMT)
> X-Complaints-To: usenet@zyxel.myplugbox.com
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:15:01 +0000 (UTC)
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463
> Xref: myplugbox.com banned:1
>
> You must contact your group admin to find out
> Dave

That seems to be a private server.

Based on the example newsgroup not following convention.

So that's not really USENET as most people know it, it
would be closer to a BBS (bulletin board system).

Paul

Thomas wrote:

> What is your #1 choice for freeware editing of images, audio & video?
>
> Here are mine with a single reason for each as to why.
> The only restriction is it must be Windows freeware.
>
> View images <=> Irfanview (it's fast)
> View photos <=> Irfanview (it's fast)

Irfanview. (Better than what I used before, which was... uh........)

> Edit images <=> Krita (it's functional)
> Draw images <=> ArtsWeaver (it's functional)
> Edit photos <=> The GIMP (it's functional, although complex)

Depends on what I want to do. I'm not an artist and my needs are generally
simple. I've used many editors in the past, but for the most part, I stick
with Irfanview, MSPaint, and MS Photo Editor from an old version of Office.
(Not freeware, but I've been using it for well over 20 years now, so that
money is long-since gone.) I also have a very old copy of Photoshop 5 that
I've had to use once in a great while (typically years between uses).

Anything those apps can't do, I usually contract out.

> Play movies <=> VLC (it's functional)

VLC.

> Play audio <=> MPC-BE (it's fast)

Winamp. Seriously. It does what I want, I'm used to it, and as long as it
works, why should I change?

> Edit audio <=> Audacity (it's functional)

Again, depends. I have some non-freeware apps that have served me well lo
these many moons, especially an old copy of Goldwave I bought a thousand
years ago. I've tried a number of freeware audio/music programs, I never
really liked any of them. Personal preference.

> Play epub <=> Calibre (it's dedicated to the task)

I extract the files using something like 7-zip and then view them as web
pages. I have some viewers in storage but why bother?

Every other task listed falls under either "I mostly don't" or occasionally
"I don't on Windows."

--
We'll give them question marks.

"Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote

>Indeed. We've always been advised to check our monthly statements. It's now
>far easier.

| Especially if you use Quicken. Using it, it typically takes me about
3-4 seconds to reconcile any account--CC, bank account, investments,
| etc.

I have a tool known as a pentadigit computer. Each month I get
my statement in the mail and compare it to my list of purchases that
I maintain. Then I enlist the pentadigit computer to make checkmarks
next to each item. :)

Though if you're going to live by chargecard then having the CC
company text you for every purchase, as ridiculous as it is, is a
lot more sensible than waiting until the end of the month. The woman
I live with just had an episode last week. An unknown small charge.
They texted her. She immediately rejected it. If she hadn't, according
to rumors I've heard, the perp would then decide they have a live
one and go to town charging big items.