Uvalde, the place loaded with so many great memories for hundreds of glider pilots. Town of great hospitality to gliding community, site of the world's best soaring, and now suddenly.... the capital of school shootings.

Not going to make an excuse for this guy, there is no excuse for a mass shooting but it is quite apparent he was bullied in school and had no direction at home. Bullies are ubiquitous, I've encountered them in the corporate and work a day world. They are usually cowards trying to elevate themselves in their own eyes and impacting others negatively, they get off on that. It is when you give in to the bully at any level that society loses. Interdict the bully at the earliest level.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 6:10:16 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> Not going to make an excuse for this guy, there is no excuse for a mass shooting but it is quite apparent he was bullied in school and had no direction at home. Bullies are ubiquitous, I've encountered them in the corporate and work a day world. They are usually cowards trying to elevate themselves in their own eyes and impacting others negatively, they get off on that. It is when you give in to the bully at any level that society loses. Interdict the bully at the earliest level.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow PIlot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

I recently read a book called Mindhunter by Mark Douglas (he consulted on the movie Silence of the Lambs) that is based on hundreds of interviews with mass and serial killers (https://www.amazon.com/Mindhunter-Inside-Elite-Serial-Netflix/dp/1787460614/ref=asc_df_1787460614/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312721411869&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17685029275225828507&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033822&hvtargid=pla-387220026715&psc=1). Their goal was to develop a database of these people that could be used to profile unknown subjects (UNSUBs) so that police could narrow down their search of the perps. The bottom line is that this type of criminal's mind is wired differently than normal people. They can lead what outwardly looks like a normal life, even be married and have a family, but they are always on the prowl for new victims. One of the characteristics of a mass or serial killer is (but certainly not always or even the majority of them) a speech impediment. Salvador Ramos had clearly built up an extreme amount of anger, but this was not displayed overtly (https://www.timesofisrael.com/mother-of-18-year-old-texas-school-shooter-says-he-wasnt-a-violent-person/).

On Saturday, May 28, 2022 at 3:07:35 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 6:10:16 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > Not going to make an excuse for this guy, there is no excuse for a mass shooting but it is quite apparent he was bullied in school and had no direction at home. Bullies are ubiquitous, I've encountered them in the corporate and work a day world. They are usually cowards trying to elevate themselves in their own eyes and impacting others negatively, they get off on that.. It is when you give in to the bully at any level that society loses. Interdict the bully at the earliest level.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow PIlot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> I recently read a book called Mindhunter by Mark Douglas (he consulted on the movie Silence of the Lambs) that is based on hundreds of interviews with mass and serial killers (https://www.amazon.com/Mindhunter-Inside-Elite-Serial-Netflix/dp/1787460614/ref=asc_df_1787460614/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312721411869&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17685029275225828507&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033822&hvtargid=pla-387220026715&psc=1). Their goal was to develop a database of these people that could be used to profile unknown subjects (UNSUBs) so that police could narrow down their search of the perps. The bottom line is that this type of criminal's mind is wired differently than normal people. They can lead what outwardly looks like a normal life, even be married and have a family, but they are always on the prowl for new victims. One of the characteristics of a mass or serial killer is (but certainly not always or even the majority of them) a speech impediment. Salvador Ramos had clearly built up an extreme amount of anger, but this was not displayed overtly (https://www.timesofisrael.com/mother-of-18-year-old-texas-school-shooter-says-he-wasnt-a-violent-person/).

There're bullied kids with mental problems and built up anger in countries all over the world, yet those countries don't have these frequent mass killings like this latest massacre in Texas. Speaking as a multiple gun owner, what makes our bullied kids with mental issues so exceptional isn't their amount of pent up anger, it's easy access to the exponential proliferation of small arms

Yes, we are a gun culture and our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms. There are those who would like to see this right terminated permanently but with the proliferation of violent crimes being committed with no significant punishment metered out by the courts, just a slap on the wrist it is becoming more evident that you will be responsible for your own protection. The Supreme Court has even said that the police are not obligated to protect you.

Right now I don't need an assault rifle, I don't need a high capacity magazine but in the event that something happens where I would need such a device I would want one. Right now I don't need a fire extinguisher but if I have a fire I would like to have one available. I have actually had a house fire, was in a hotel for 9 months and 3 weeks recently courtesy of State Farm while my house was being repaired. I had a fire extinguisher which was inadequate for the size of the fire. I am now back in my house with two BIG fire extinguishers placed strategically. Chances of being hit by lightning which would start another fire are small but I choose to have a more adequate capacity to respond.

These shootings can almost always have the Swiss cheese model applied. Somewhere the ball is dropped, somewhere someone, something gets thru the holes. Stop the bullying, identify those who are bullied and can't or won't fight back on the spot and help them,. Lock the damn school door, don't prop it open, have a school resource officer ON THE SPOT, not out galavanting around. Arm those teachers who wish to be armed and are willing to be properly trained. If one of the teachers who was killed had the capacity to fight back, things most likely would have been different.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

Fire extinguisher? My house is equipped with a sprinkler system and
I'm happy to say that it's never been required, yet...

I guess I should hire a mercenary army for my personal protection since
the police won't do it.

Dan
5J

On 5/29/22 07:06, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> Yes, we are a gun culture and our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms. There are those who would like to see this right terminated permanently but with the proliferation of violent crimes being committed with no significant punishment metered out by the courts, just a slap on the wrist it is becoming more evident that you will be responsible for your own protection. The Supreme Court has even said that the police are not obligated to protect you.
>
> Right now I don't need an assault rifle, I don't need a high capacity magazine but in the event that something happens where I would need such a device I would want one. Right now I don't need a fire extinguisher but if I have a fire I would like to have one available. I have actually had a house fire, was in a hotel for 9 months and 3 weeks recently courtesy of State Farm while my house was being repaired. I had a fire extinguisher which was inadequate for the size of the fire. I am now back in my house with two BIG fire extinguishers placed strategically. Chances of being hit by lightning which would start another fire are small but I choose to have a more adequate capacity to respond.
>
> These shootings can almost always have the Swiss cheese model applied. Somewhere the ball is dropped, somewhere someone, something gets thru the holes. Stop the bullying, identify those who are bullied and can't or won't fight back on the spot and help them,. Lock the damn school door, don't prop it open, have a school resource officer ON THE SPOT, not out galavanting around. Arm those teachers who wish to be armed and are willing to be properly trained. If one of the teachers who was killed had the capacity to fight back, things most likely would have been different.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 8:06:07 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Fire extinguisher? My house is equipped with a sprinkler system and
> I'm happy to say that it's never been required, yet...
>
> I guess I should hire a mercenary army for my personal protection since
> the police won't do it.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/29/22 07:06, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > Yes, we are a gun culture and our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms. There are those who would like to see this right terminated permanently but with the proliferation of violent crimes being committed with no significant punishment metered out by the courts, just a slap on the wrist it is becoming more evident that you will be responsible for your own protection. The Supreme Court has even said that the police are not obligated to protect you.
> >
> > Right now I don't need an assault rifle, I don't need a high capacity magazine but in the event that something happens where I would need such a device I would want one. Right now I don't need a fire extinguisher but if I have a fire I would like to have one available. I have actually had a house fire, was in a hotel for 9 months and 3 weeks recently courtesy of State Farm while my house was being repaired. I had a fire extinguisher which was inadequate for the size of the fire. I am now back in my house with two BIG fire extinguishers placed strategically. Chances of being hit by lightning which would start another fire are small but I choose to have a more adequate capacity to respond.
> >
> > These shootings can almost always have the Swiss cheese model applied. Somewhere the ball is dropped, somewhere someone, something gets thru the holes. Stop the bullying, identify those who are bullied and can't or won't fight back on the spot and help them,. Lock the damn school door, don't prop it open, have a school resource officer ON THE SPOT, not out galavanting around. Arm those teachers who wish to be armed and are willing to be properly trained. If one of the teachers who was killed had the capacity to fight back, things most likely would have been different.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

The thing that struck me in reading Mindhunter is that most killings done by serial killers don't involve a firearm. If Ramos was denied his weapon of choice, the Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 rifle, he had a backup: his grandmother's pickup truck.

Tom

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 11:06:07 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Fire extinguisher? My house is equipped with a sprinkler system and
> I'm happy to say that it's never been required, yet...
>
> I guess I should hire a mercenary army for my personal protection since
> the police won't do it.
>
> Dan
> 5J

Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody."

Hope you are getting a break on your fire insurance with that sprinkler system.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.

Here is the text of the second amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.

Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.

Probably getting a break on insurance, but it's still expensive given
that I live in forested mountains in New Mexico, where the feds
intentionally started the largest wild fire in the country (prescribed
burn).

Dan
5J

On 5/29/22 14:38, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 11:06:07 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Fire extinguisher? My house is equipped with a sprinkler system and
>> I'm happy to say that it's never been required, yet...
>>
>> I guess I should hire a mercenary army for my personal protection since
>> the police won't do it.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>
> Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.
> The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody."
>
> Hope you are getting a break on your fire insurance with that sprinkler system.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> > Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> Here is the text of the second amendment:
>
> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
>
> All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
>
> Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.

Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.

"Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.

Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.

Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.

Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.

Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police failed to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.

The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 11:53:13 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Probably getting a break on insurance, but it's still expensive given
> that I live in forested mountains in New Mexico, where the feds
> intentionally started the largest wild fire in the country (prescribed
> burn).
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/29/22 14:38, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 11:06:07 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> Fire extinguisher? My house is equipped with a sprinkler system and
> >> I'm happy to say that it's never been required, yet...
> >>
> >> I guess I should hire a mercenary army for my personal protection since
> >> the police won't do it.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >> 5J
> >
> > Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.
> > The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody."
> >
> > Hope you are getting a break on your fire insurance with that sprinkler system.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

Look at your insurance policy and make sure you have more than adequate "Alternative Living Expenses." I was in a hotel for almost 10 months recently while repairs were being made to my house. Supply chain problems, worker shortages, it was nice though, having someone changing the sheets and cleaning the bathroom. I now have an essentially new house inside.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

Op dinsdag 31 mei 2022 om 14:46:03 UTC+2 schreef waltco...@aol.com:
> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 11:53:13 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Probably getting a break on insurance, but it's still expensive given
> > that I live in forested mountains in New Mexico, where the feds
> > intentionally started the largest wild fire in the country (prescribed
> > burn).
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 5/29/22 14:38, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 11:06:07 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> Fire extinguisher? My house is equipped with a sprinkler system and
> > >> I'm happy to say that it's never been required, yet...
> > >>
> > >> I guess I should hire a mercenary army for my personal protection since
> > >> the police won't do it.
> > >>
> > >> Dan
> > >> 5J
> > >
> > > Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.
> > > The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody."
> > >
> > > Hope you are getting a break on your fire insurance with that sprinkler system.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow pilot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> Look at your insurance policy and make sure you have more than adequate "Alternative Living Expenses." I was in a hotel for almost 10 months recently while repairs were being made to my house. Supply chain problems, worker shortages, it was nice though, having someone changing the sheets and cleaning the bathroom. I now have an essentially new house inside.
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Fortunately I live in Europe. No guns, no school massacres.

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:43:02 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> > > Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> > Here is the text of the second amendment:
> >
> > "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> >
> > All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
> >
> > Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.
> Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.
>
> "Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.
>
> Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.
>
> Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.
>
> Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.
>
> Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police faidbgTempeoled to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.
>
> The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

Dear Walt,

This is obviously off topic for this group, but since you posted I am compelled to offer some counter arguments:

1: At the time the 2nd amendment was written it took about 1 minute to reload a gun. Modern semi-automatic rifles can fire a dozen or more bullets per minute. These are much different weapons than existed back then. I'm certain our founders would be horrified at what modern guns can do, and are doing.

2: Guns may not kill people, but people kill people. Guns are multipliers, they multiply how many people one person can kill. Was 1 person per minute, now is a dozen per minute. Much different than back then.

3: The 2nd amendment refers to a "well regulated militia". In what universe is what we have in the USA a "well regulated milita"?

4: We already regulate many things that are dangerous if not regulated. You need a license (and training and pass a test) to drive a car or fly a plane. You must be over 21 to buy beer in most states. Civilians are not allowed to own large caliber guns, bombs, etc. Why is it that an AR-15 and similar high capacity semi-automatic weapons can be purchased at a gun show with no licensing or background checks, by 18 year olds?

5: The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect.

6: You say the gun laws need to be enforced better. There are so many guns out there that that is like draining a lake with a sponge.

7: Some people (not you, that I know of) argue that any one thing won't solve the problem: Outlawing assault weapons, stricter background checks, closing the gun show loophole, requiring universal licensing, etc each by themselves won't make much impact. That is true, but collectively they can make a big difference. Australia strongly revised their gun laws a decade or so ago after a mass shooting and have not had a similar event since. Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate, but tightly regulated, and do not have the mass shootings we have here. It is possible to very significantly reduce (but probably not eliminate) mass shootings and much of the other gun violence that is making the USA so dangerous right now, but we need to start valuing the lives of our children and neighbors more than our guns.

Rich L.

Dear Everyone,

There seems to be a feeling that the US Constitution grants rights to
the citizens and that these rights can be revoked.

In fact, the Constitution only enumerates what are natural rights of all
peoples and prohibits the government from infringing upon those rights.

Maybe if you had listened in school...

Dan
5J

On 5/31/22 10:24, Richard Livingston wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:43:02 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
>>>> Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
>>> Here is the text of the second amendment:
>>>
>>> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
>>>
>>> All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
>>>
>>> Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.
>> Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.
>>
>> "Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.
>>
>> Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.
>>
>> Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.
>>
>> Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.
>>
>> Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police faidbgTempeoled to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.
>>
>> The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.
>> Walt Connelly
>> Former Tow Pilot
>> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
> Dear Walt,
>
> This is obviously off topic for this group, but since you posted I am compelled to offer some counter arguments:
>
> 1: At the time the 2nd amendment was written it took about 1 minute to reload a gun. Modern semi-automatic rifles can fire a dozen or more bullets per minute. These are much different weapons than existed back then. I'm certain our founders would be horrified at what modern guns can do, and are doing.
>
> 2: Guns may not kill people, but people kill people. Guns are multipliers, they multiply how many people one person can kill. Was 1 person per minute, now is a dozen per minute. Much different than back then.
>
> 3: The 2nd amendment refers to a "well regulated militia". In what universe is what we have in the USA a "well regulated milita"?
>
> 4: We already regulate many things that are dangerous if not regulated. You need a license (and training and pass a test) to drive a car or fly a plane. You must be over 21 to buy beer in most states. Civilians are not allowed to own large caliber guns, bombs, etc. Why is it that an AR-15 and similar high capacity semi-automatic weapons can be purchased at a gun show with no licensing or background checks, by 18 year olds?
>
> 5: The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect.
>
> 6: You say the gun laws need to be enforced better. There are so many guns out there that that is like draining a lake with a sponge.
>
> 7: Some people (not you, that I know of) argue that any one thing won't solve the problem: Outlawing assault weapons, stricter background checks, closing the gun show loophole, requiring universal licensing, etc each by themselves won't make much impact. That is true, but collectively they can make a big difference. Australia strongly revised their gun laws a decade or so ago after a mass shooting and have not had a similar event since. Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate, but tightly regulated, and do not have the mass shootings we have here. It is possible to very significantly reduce (but probably not eliminate) mass shootings and much of the other gun violence that is making the USA so dangerous right now, but we need to start valuing the lives of our children and neighbors more than our guns.
>
> Rich L.

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:08:04 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Dear Everyone,
>
> There seems to be a feeling that the US Constitution grants rights to
> the citizens and that these rights can be revoked.
>
> In fact, the Constitution only enumerates what are natural rights of all
> peoples and prohibits the government from infringing upon those rights.
>
> Maybe if you had listened in school...
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/31/22 10:24, Richard Livingston wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:43:02 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> >>>> Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> >>> Here is the text of the second amendment:
> >>>
> >>> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> >>>
> >>> All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
> >>>
> >>> Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.
> >> Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.
> >>
> >> "Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle.. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.
> >>
> >> Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.
> >>
> >> Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.
> >>
> >> Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.
> >>
> >> Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police faidbgTempeoled to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.
> >>
> >> The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.
> >> Walt Connelly
> >> Former Tow Pilot
> >> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> > Dear Walt,
> >
> > This is obviously off topic for this group, but since you posted I am compelled to offer some counter arguments:
> >
> > 1: At the time the 2nd amendment was written it took about 1 minute to reload a gun. Modern semi-automatic rifles can fire a dozen or more bullets per minute. These are much different weapons than existed back then. I'm certain our founders would be horrified at what modern guns can do, and are doing.
> >
> > 2: Guns may not kill people, but people kill people. Guns are multipliers, they multiply how many people one person can kill. Was 1 person per minute, now is a dozen per minute. Much different than back then.
> >
> > 3: The 2nd amendment refers to a "well regulated militia". In what universe is what we have in the USA a "well regulated milita"?
> >
> > 4: We already regulate many things that are dangerous if not regulated. You need a license (and training and pass a test) to drive a car or fly a plane. You must be over 21 to buy beer in most states. Civilians are not allowed to own large caliber guns, bombs, etc. Why is it that an AR-15 and similar high capacity semi-automatic weapons can be purchased at a gun show with no licensing or background checks, by 18 year olds?
> >
> > 5: The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect.
> >
> > 6: You say the gun laws need to be enforced better. There are so many guns out there that that is like draining a lake with a sponge.
> >
> > 7: Some people (not you, that I know of) argue that any one thing won't solve the problem: Outlawing assault weapons, stricter background checks, closing the gun show loophole, requiring universal licensing, etc each by themselves won't make much impact. That is true, but collectively they can make a big difference. Australia strongly revised their gun laws a decade or so ago after a mass shooting and have not had a similar event since. Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate, but tightly regulated, and do not have the mass shootings we have here. It is possible to very significantly reduce (but probably not eliminate) mass shootings and much of the other gun violence that is making the USA so dangerous right now, but we need to start valuing the lives of our children and neighbors more than our guns.
> >
> > Rich L.

Dale-
Using your argument that the advances in technology as applied to firearms are not what the Founding Fathers envisioned and should therefore be sufficient reason to restrict the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms, let's apply the same argument to the First Amendment.
At the time the Constitution was written, the "free press" and "freedom of speech" were enacted one page at a time by a manual printing press that had an output of at most, one or two pages per minute, and speech was directly from the speaker to the listener.

If you are willing to give up radio, television, the internet and mass printing of publications, along with rants by self-styled "experts" of every stripe on "social media," I will go along with reverting to single shot black powder firearms.

On 5/31/22 09:27, swinkelj wrote:
> Op dinsdag 31 mei 2022 om 14:46:03 UTC+2 schreef waltco...@aol.com:
<...brevity snip...>

> Fortunately I live in Europe. No guns, no school massacres.

All well & good, but...
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-history.html

One of the joys of soaring (in my book, anyway) is physics holds people
accountable - always (and sometimes, forever, for those paying
insufficient attention or over-thinning their personal margins).

Let's be aware and careful "out there!"

Bob W.

By what passes for "logic" here, we should also be restricting vehicle use, as cars, like guns, can be used as deadly weapons to kill and maim multiple people (as was done at the Christmas parade in Wisconsin). If you don't include gun related suicide, vehicle related deaths outnumber those that are gun related. Maybe we should be charging all car owners a tax to compensate accident and drunk driver victims. While we're at it, don't forget to raise the taxes on booze, 28% of vehicle deaths are alcohol related. Guns and vehicles don't cause deaths, it's people who do that.

The underlying problem is the breakdown of the family in our society. Welfare is the enabler, rewarding people to have kids with little to no family structure . . . they grow up on the street.

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 2:24:25 PM UTC-5, bumper wrote:
> By what passes for "logic" here, we should also be restricting vehicle use, as cars, like guns, can be used as deadly weapons to kill and maim multiple people (as was done at the Christmas parade in Wisconsin). If you don't include gun related suicide, vehicle related deaths outnumber those that are gun related. Maybe we should be charging all car owners a tax to compensate accident and drunk driver victims. While we're at it, don't forget to raise the taxes on booze, 28% of vehicle deaths are alcohol related. Guns and vehicles don't cause deaths, it's people who do that.
>
> The underlying problem is the breakdown of the family in our society. Welfare is the enabler, rewarding people to have kids with little to no family structure . . . they grow up on the street.

Vehicle use is subject to restrictions. Driver's licenses, vehicle safety inspections, registration all constrain vehicle availability and use. A tax to compensate car accident victims isn't needed as the insurance required to register a car (at least in Texas) provides that compensation. People get compensated while insurance companies & lawyers make money.

I need to go find a good thermal and take it to cloud base.

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-4, richali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:43:02 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> > > > Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> > > Here is the text of the second amendment:
> > >
> > > "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> > >
> > > All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
> > >
> > > Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.
> > Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier.. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.
> >
> > "Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.
> >
> > Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.
> >
> > Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.
> >
> > Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.
> >
> > Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police faidbgTempeoled to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.
> >
> > The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> Dear Walt,
>
> This is obviously off topic for this group, but since you posted I am compelled to offer some counter arguments:
>
> 1: At the time the 2nd amendment was written it took about 1 minute to reload a gun. Modern semi-automatic rifles can fire a dozen or more bullets per minute. These are much different weapons than existed back then. I'm certain our founders would be horrified at what modern guns can do, and are doing.
>
> 2: Guns may not kill people, but people kill people. Guns are multipliers, they multiply how many people one person can kill. Was 1 person per minute, now is a dozen per minute. Much different than back then.
>
> 3: The 2nd amendment refers to a "well regulated militia". In what universe is what we have in the USA a "well regulated milita"?
>
> 4: We already regulate many things that are dangerous if not regulated. You need a license (and training and pass a test) to drive a car or fly a plane. You must be over 21 to buy beer in most states. Civilians are not allowed to own large caliber guns, bombs, etc. Why is it that an AR-15 and similar high capacity semi-automatic weapons can be purchased at a gun show with no licensing or background checks, by 18 year olds?
>
> 5: The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect.
>
> 6: You say the gun laws need to be enforced better. There are so many guns out there that that is like draining a lake with a sponge.
>
> 7: Some people (not you, that I know of) argue that any one thing won't solve the problem: Outlawing assault weapons, stricter background checks, closing the gun show loophole, requiring universal licensing, etc each by themselves won't make much impact. That is true, but collectively they can make a big difference. Australia strongly revised their gun laws a decade or so ago after a mass shooting and have not had a similar event since. Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate, but tightly regulated, and do not have the mass shootings we have here. It is possible to very significantly reduce (but probably not eliminate) mass shootings and much of the other gun violence that is making the USA so dangerous right now, but we need to start valuing the lives of our children and neighbors more than our guns.
>
> Rich L.

>1. I believe if our founding fathers could have envisioned the goings on today, the lean towards socialism/communism and the lawlessness in the streets they would have been even more in favor off an armed citizenry. They would however not have permitted for a moment the lawlessness going on, the looting, burning and rioting with no recourse. People would be in jail or shot by the authorities or citizens.

>2. Yes, people kill people with guns, with cars while driving impaired by alcohol, with home made explosives. If people want to kill people they will find a way. First it will be the AR15, next the mini 14 and at some point your musket. Government makes little to no effort to improve things, as they have stated time and time again, never let a good crisis go to waste.

>3. As I stated before without an armed citizenry a militia can't be assembled. There are now and always have been nut cases who do not fit into the equation.

>4. The Constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms, not to drink alcohol or drive a car or fly an airplane which are privileges, not rights. Personally I would be fine with a higher age requirement on purchase of firearms of any kind, the brain of a recent high school graduate is not sufficiently developed. Some never are. Statistics show that previous assault weapon bans have not produced any tangible results.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on many points.

>5. "The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect." Explain then the reason murder and gun crimes in environments with extremely limited gun laws are lower. States that liberally allow licensure for concealed carry showed a reduction in gun related crimes. A cause is a reaction, the effect is the result. Failure to effectively punish gun crimes results in gun crimes rising precipitously. I befriended a Pharmacist in Brooklyn, NY during my last corporate gig. He had applied for a permit to PURCHASE a firearm to keep in his home and has been denied several times. Seems encountering a burglar in his home who was armed was not a good enough reason for approval for the permit. So a law abiding citizen is denied but a criminal can skirt the law, doesn't care.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 8:18:01 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-4, richali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:43:02 AM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> > > > > Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> > > > Here is the text of the second amendment:
> > > >
> > > > "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> > > >
> > > > All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
> > > >
> > > > Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.
> > > Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.
> > >
> > > "Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.
> > >
> > > Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.
> > >
> > > Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.
> > >
> > > Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.
> > >
> > > Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police faidbgTempeoled to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.
> > >
> > > The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> > Dear Walt,
> >
> > This is obviously off topic for this group, but since you posted I am compelled to offer some counter arguments:
> >
> > 1: At the time the 2nd amendment was written it took about 1 minute to reload a gun. Modern semi-automatic rifles can fire a dozen or more bullets per minute. These are much different weapons than existed back then. I'm certain our founders would be horrified at what modern guns can do, and are doing.
> >
> > 2: Guns may not kill people, but people kill people. Guns are multipliers, they multiply how many people one person can kill. Was 1 person per minute, now is a dozen per minute. Much different than back then.
> >
> > 3: The 2nd amendment refers to a "well regulated militia". In what universe is what we have in the USA a "well regulated milita"?
> >
> > 4: We already regulate many things that are dangerous if not regulated. You need a license (and training and pass a test) to drive a car or fly a plane. You must be over 21 to buy beer in most states. Civilians are not allowed to own large caliber guns, bombs, etc. Why is it that an AR-15 and similar high capacity semi-automatic weapons can be purchased at a gun show with no licensing or background checks, by 18 year olds?
> >
> > 5: The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect.
> >
> > 6: You say the gun laws need to be enforced better. There are so many guns out there that that is like draining a lake with a sponge.
> >
> > 7: Some people (not you, that I know of) argue that any one thing won't solve the problem: Outlawing assault weapons, stricter background checks, closing the gun show loophole, requiring universal licensing, etc each by themselves won't make much impact. That is true, but collectively they can make a big difference. Australia strongly revised their gun laws a decade or so ago after a mass shooting and have not had a similar event since. Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate, but tightly regulated, and do not have the mass shootings we have here. It is possible to very significantly reduce (but probably not eliminate) mass shootings and much of the other gun violence that is making the USA so dangerous right now, but we need to start valuing the lives of our children and neighbors more than our guns.
> >
> > Rich L.
> >1. I believe if our founding fathers could have envisioned the goings on today, the lean towards socialism/communism and the lawlessness in the streets they would have been even more in favor off an armed citizenry. They would however not have permitted for a moment the lawlessness going on, the looting, burning and rioting with no recourse. People would be in jail or shot by the authorities or citizens.
>
> >2. Yes, people kill people with guns, with cars while driving impaired by alcohol, with home made explosives. If people want to kill people they will find a way. First it will be the AR15, next the mini 14 and at some point your musket. Government makes little to no effort to improve things, as they have stated time and time again, never let a good crisis go to waste.
>
> >3. As I stated before without an armed citizenry a militia can't be assembled. There are now and always have been nut cases who do not fit into the equation.
>
> >4. The Constitution gives us the right to keep and bear arms, not to drink alcohol or drive a car or fly an airplane which are privileges, not rights. Personally I would be fine with a higher age requirement on purchase of firearms of any kind, the brain of a recent high school graduate is not sufficiently developed. Some never are. Statistics show that previous assault weapon bans have not produced any tangible results.
> We are going to have to agree to disagree on many points.
>
> >5. "The reason murder rates are so high in locations with very restrictive gun laws is due to too many guns too freely available, not due to the strict gun laws. You are confusing cause and effect." Explain then the reason murder and gun crimes in environments with extremely limited gun laws are lower. States that liberally allow licensure for concealed carry showed a reduction in gun related crimes. A cause is a reaction, the effect is the result. Failure to effectively punish gun crimes results in gun crimes rising precipitously. I befriended a Pharmacist in Brooklyn, NY during my last corporate gig. He had applied for a permit to PURCHASE a firearm to keep in his home and has been denied several times. Seems encountering a burglar in his home who was armed was not a good enough reason for approval for the permit. So a law abiding citizen is denied but a criminal can skirt the law, doesn't care.
>
> >6. "You say the gun laws need to be enforced better. There are so many guns out there that that is like draining a lake with a sponge." So virtually ignoring the enforcement (which is exactly what is going on in many municipalities) is the thing to do? While it is not an excuse for the massacre at Robb Elementary, there were more shootings and fatalities in Chicago last month with little to no response from the authorities.
>
> >7. Australia did not have the same Constitutional rights afforded U.S. Citizens making such bans more easily accomplishable. What it also accomplished was to disarm the law abiding Australian citizen. Do you think criminals turned in their guns? Do you think guns would not be available on the black market? Murder rates were already declining prior to the NFA of Australia. I had a statistics class in college and the prof said he could make any set of numbers mean anything he wished, so much for statistics. I worked for a Swiss company for 26 years. Swiss soldiers at the time kept their fully automatic service weapons in their homes. Switzerland also has a more homogenous population and crimes are not easily ignored, do the crime, do the time. Not so in the USA.
>
> There are not easy answers to any of these questions but it is clear that enforcement is being ignored. Yes, guns in Chicago are bought elsewhere, quite often stolen and traded on the streets. Banning guns in America at any level would not have much effect on criminality. They would come in from Mexico illegally as does fentanyl and other illegal drugs.
>
> Biden now wants to claim the 5.56mm/.223 is a HIGH caliber projectile. Not so. 7.62x39 is larger as is .308. He is now talking about banning 9mm because it is a "high caliber." What then about 10mm, .40S&W, .45 ACP, .44 magnum, 454 Casull, .50 AE? Biden speaks out his demented behind.
>
> I fully agree that there are loopholes in the law. I would hesitate to sell a gun to someone I didn't know and in many cases to people I know. I looked at a Colt Combat Commander (probably a 5K$ gun) at an estate sale in a gated community. There was an armed security guard on duty due to the value of many of the items for sale. I ran the serial number on Hotguns.com and it was stolen. Surprised that a fine, upstanding, wealthy member of the community would have left such an item behind after his death. Did he steal it or buy it not knowing? Who knows but most criminals do not go to the local gun dealer and fill out the yellow sheet, now done online.
>
> A good friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver. No one though to blame Mercedes Benz, the maker of the car that killed him. There was no outcry at Bacardi Rum, the alcohol used to intoxicate the driver. Yes, the purpose of a car is not to kill but the purpose of alcohol is to dull our senses. (I quit drinking after flying a 13-14 hour mission over northern Laos with a hangover.).
>
> We are goin g to have to agree to disagree on many issues my friend.
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:43:36 AM UTC-7, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> > Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> Here is the text of the second amendment:
>
> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
>
> All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
>
> Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.

You are sadly ignorant of the Heller decision which covers the argument you made in great detail. This decision, by the way, is 14 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 5:43:02 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 7:43:36 AM UTC-4, pvansch...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:43:06 PM UTC-7, Tom Desjardins wrote:
> > > Yes, thankfully our Constitution gives us a right to keep and bear arms, but there are those who're unable to distinguish between limits and termination. Massacres like this will continue to increase with the continued exponential proliferation of small arms. On the bright side Daniel Defense published a pop-up statement on its homepage sending “thoughts and prayers” to the community of Uvalde.
> > Here is the text of the second amendment:
> >
> > "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> >
> > All the guns in circulation are not part of a well regulated militia. They are in the hands of some sensible gun owners and a lot of random unregulated individuals, one of whom goes crazy every few months. We regulate that people can not own operable Sherman tanks, 50 caliber machine guns that were once installed in warbirds, and lots of other weapons of war. Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people.
> >
> > Just like we tax the heck out of tobacco to help defray the costs to society that the tobacco inflicts; we should tax the heck out of guns and ammunition. Some of the money would compensate victims and families. And the gun manufacturers should be required to add technology to guns just like we do to cars to make them safer. Both these ideas would be more effective than yet more thoughts and prayers, which clearly do nothing at all.
> Ah Kimo Sabe, you speak like a Democrat. When asked "who sir are the Militia?" George Mason answered, "All of the people." Subsequent descriptions were "all able bodied men over 17 years of age, citizens or those wishing to be citizens," yada yada yada. This would seem to restrict ownership for females which would cause a riot these days. Bottom line is you can't muster a militia unless the citizenry is armed. Your comments about taxing and requiring technology are quite telling. BTW, when the 2nd Amendment was written the average citizen had a rifle superior to that of the average soldier. The soldier's rifle was built by the lowest bidder while the citizen's was built by a local gunsmith whose reputation depended on the satisfaction of the locals.
>
> "Nobody needs an assault weapon for anything other than killing many people?" Well the term "need' is quite subjective. The AR15 is an assault weapon only because the liberal left wishes to believe AR means Assault Rifle. It means Armalite Rifle but semantics aside it is a semi automatic rifle, mechanically not unlike many other rifles these days. Considering the goings on in the recent past with riots and burning and looting which went unchecked by the local police in many geographies it makes sense to be able to defend yourself at a distance and with as few reloads as possible. JMHO.
>
> Depending on who you ask there are 400 to 2000 gun laws on the books throughout the country. In the most restrictive of environments you find the most shootings on a weekly basis, go figure. We have enough laws, what we need is enforcement.
>
> Biden now thinks that a .223 is HIGH CALIBER. It is 3 one thousandths of an inch bigger than the most common plinker, the .22. The 7.62x39 and the 308 are larger. He also said he want to ban the 9mm. WHY? the .40S&W is larger as is the .44, the .45, the .454 and .50. He is speaking out his demented external anal sphincter. The liberal left (socialist communists) really want the country disarmed. When that happens we can all kiss it goodby.
>
> Every once in a while a nut case slips thru the cracks, horribly unfortunate and impossible to say anything that would appease the families affected by his actions. Do we do psychological analysis of every gun purchaser? How about doing the same to aircraft mechanics, brain scan them for brain tumors too, not a bad idea? Aircraft mechanic is the occupation of most serial killers, look it up.
>
> Schools were supposed to be hardened against such incidents and the ball was dropped in this case so we blame the gun, the manufacturer. The police failed to respond adequately but the Supreme Court has held that they have no duty to do so, go figure.
>
> The world is becoming a more dangerous place day by day. Food prices are thru the roof, shortages are predicted, gas is thru the roof, baby formula is in short supply and if the Democrats win the midterm you will be lining up for toilet paper.
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

This is the mark of a stupid person; bullet caliber is much less important than the kinetic energy of the projectile, which is what makes some rifles so much more destructive than handguns. AR-15 5.7
mm rounds travel at typically 3,000 ft/s vs 1,300 for 9 mm. They have an energy of around 1,800 J vs 500 J. The bottom line: the caliber is MEANINGLESS! The big advantage of 9 mm handguns is that they are far easier to conceal than a rifle of any sort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum