On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> > "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> > news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> > > Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> > > common in very small engines, some of which seem
> > > rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> > > larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> > > high-production types where tooling costs matter
> > > less than per-part costs.
> > >
> > > For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> > > one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> > > a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> > > of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> > > diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> > >
> > > Thanks for reading,
> > >
> > > bob prohaska
> >
> > Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
> > the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
> > whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
> > it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
> > of
> > you still around.
> >
> > Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
> > diesel
> > fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
> > and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
> > people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
> > diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
> > and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
> > "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
> > consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >
> > As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
> > probably
> > since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
> > torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >
> > Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >
> > --
> > Ed Huntress
> > ----------------------------------
> >
> > Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>
> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
> with different paint jobs.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
> ------------------------------------
>
> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
> unlicensed copying.
>
> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
> engine.

Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 8:59:54 AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:36:54 -0700 (PDT), Ed Huntress
> <edhun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 6:21:11 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >> On 10/08/2021 22:42, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >> >> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> >> >> common in very small engines, some of which seem
> >> >> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> >> >> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> >> >> high-production types where tooling costs matter
> >> >> less than per-part costs.
> >> >>
> >> >> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> >> >> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> >> >> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> >> >> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> >> >> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for reading,
> >> >>
> >> >> bob prohaska
> >> > Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many of you still around.
> >> >
> >> > Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on diesel fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >> >
> >> > As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and probably since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >> >
> >> > Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Ed Huntress
> >> Ed,
> >>
> >> Good to see you're still with us and posting, it has been getting quiet
> >> on here as even the metal working related stuff is getting less often. I
> >> hadn't noticed a reduction in political/gun/survivalist stuff as my
> >> filters kept that under control. I had a Davies-Charlton UK made diesel
> >> airplane model engine and took it back to Wichita and asked my chemistry
> >> teacher where I could get some ether to make the fuel and she was rather
> >> concerned about safety and not helpful, IIRC the fuel was ether, amyl
> >> nitrate, and castor oil and easy to get in the UK as a pre-mixed fuel
> >> but not common in the US in the early 1980s. IIRC a source for ether is
> >> engine start spray and people do use it to repair capillary temperature
> >> gauges.
> >
> >Hiya Dave! I haven't tried to buy ether for decades. I kept a pint can of it in the trunk of my MG when I lived in Michigan, for starting on those 0-temp winter days ( and with a sad Lucas battery), which I guess was like keeping a few sticks of dynamite in the car. Oh well, it worked. and I'm still in one piece.
> One can still buy ether in the US, packaged as "starting fluid" in
> auto parts stores.
> >I see it's relatively quiet here, but the subjects are metalworking-related, like it was when I joined over 20 years ago. It's good to see.
> Seems to come in sporadic waves these days. Gunner has not posted in
> a long time.
>
> Joe Gwinn

I haven't noticed the cross-posting that created the whole mess in the first place. Well, good luck. I used to really enjoy this NG. These interests are confined to a smaller group these days, but there is still a core of interest, I'm glad to see. Since I retired, I spend more time fishing and doing outdoors things. My lathe gets more service turning cork grips for my fly rods. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
>>>> less than per-part costs.
>>>>
>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>
>>>> bob prohaska
>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
>>> of
>>> you still around.
>>>
>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
>>> diesel
>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
>>>
>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
>>> probably
>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
>>>
>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress
>>> ----------------------------------
>>>
>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
>> with different paint jobs.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
>> unlicensed copying.
>>
>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
>> engine.
> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.

I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
like the Yanmar it's the lever with the  red knob to the right of the
cylinder head in the last image.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
> >> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
> >>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> >>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
> >>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> >>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> >>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
> >>>> less than per-part costs.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> >>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> >>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> >>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> >>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for reading,
> >>>>
> >>>> bob prohaska
> >>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
> >>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
> >>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
> >>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
> >>> of
> >>> you still around.
> >>>
> >>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
> >>> diesel
> >>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
> >>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
> >>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
> >>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
> >>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
> >>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
> >>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >>>
> >>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
> >>> probably
> >>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
> >>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >>>
> >>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ed Huntress
> >>> ----------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
> >> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
> >> with different paint jobs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ed Huntress
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
> >> unlicensed copying.
> >>
> >> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
> >> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
> >> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
> >> engine.
> > Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
> cylinder head in the last image.

The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.

--
Ed Huntress

On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
>>>>> of
>>>>> you still around.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
>>>>> diesel
>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
>>>>>
>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
>>>>> probably
>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
>>>> with different paint jobs.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
>>>> unlicensed copying.
>>>>
>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
>>>> engine.
>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
>> cylinder head in the last image.
> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
>
I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
temperatures.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> >>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
> >>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> >>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> >>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
> >>>>>> less than per-part costs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> >>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> >>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> >>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> >>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for reading,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> bob prohaska
> >>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
> >>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
> >>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
> >>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> you still around.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
> >>>>> diesel
> >>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
> >>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
> >>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
> >>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
> >>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
> >>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
> >>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
> >>>>> probably
> >>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
> >>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>> ----------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
> >>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
> >>>> with different paint jobs.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
> >>>> unlicensed copying.
> >>>>
> >>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
> >>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
> >>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
> >>>> engine.
> >>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
> >> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
> >> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
> >> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
> >> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
> >> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
> >> cylinder head in the last image.
> > The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
> >
> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
> temperatures.

I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
--
Ed Huntress

On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
>>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
>>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
>>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
>>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
>>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
>>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
>>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
>>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
>>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
>>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
>>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
>>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> you still around.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
>>>>>>> diesel
>>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
>>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
>>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
>>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
>>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
>>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
>>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
>>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
>>>>>> with different paint jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
>>>>>> unlicensed copying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
>>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
>>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
>>>>>> engine.
>>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
>>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
>>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
>>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
>>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
>>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
>>>> cylinder head in the last image.
>>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
>>>
>> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
>> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
>> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
>> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
>> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
>> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
>> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
>> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
>> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
>> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
>> temperatures.
> I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...

A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.

While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.

Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:68c75f99-d676-4752-a352-8cda86eb84e3n@googlegroups.com...

I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with
a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. ...
--
Ed Huntress
-------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:16:02 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> >>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
> >>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> >>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> >>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
> >>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> >>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> >>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> >>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> >>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> bob prohaska
> >>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
> >>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
> >>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
> >>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> you still around.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
> >>>>>>> diesel
> >>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
> >>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
> >>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
> >>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
> >>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
> >>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
> >>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
> >>>>>>> probably
> >>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
> >>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
> >>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
> >>>>>> with different paint jobs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
> >>>>>> unlicensed copying.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
> >>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
> >>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
> >>>>>> engine.
> >>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
> >>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
> >>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
> >>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
> >>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
> >>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
> >>>> cylinder head in the last image.
> >>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
> >>>
> >> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
> >> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
> >> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
> >> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
> >> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
> >> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
> >> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
> >> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
> >> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
> >> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
> >> temperatures.
> > I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
> A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
> but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
> to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
> warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel..
>
> While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
> idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
> dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
> bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
> and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.
>
> Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
> sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
> and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.

Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:18:43 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> news:68c75f99-d676-4752...@googlegroups.com...
> I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with
> a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. ...
> --
> Ed Huntress
> -------------------------
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston

Ah yes, the fire piston! I learned about them here on RCM many years ago. I made one out of stainless on my SB lathe, and it worked great. I'm sad to say it was lost somewhere. Mine had no gaskets; I lapped the piston for a very close fit. I used rubbed inner bark from a red cedar for tinder, but I had no pocket on the end of the piston. I don't think one was needed. It's pretty hard to get enough compression with your hand to crush the fuel. But you had to invert the cylinder and bang it hard to get the burning tinder out of it.

The kickback was pretty sharp when the fuel started to burn.

--
Ed Huntress

On 11/08/2021 17:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:16:02 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>>>> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
>>>>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
>>>>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
>>>>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
>>>>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
>>>>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
>>>>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
>>>>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
>>>>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
>>>>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
>>>>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
>>>>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
>>>>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> you still around.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
>>>>>>>>> diesel
>>>>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
>>>>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
>>>>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
>>>>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
>>>>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
>>>>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
>>>>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
>>>>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>>>>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
>>>>>>>> with different paint jobs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
>>>>>>>> unlicensed copying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
>>>>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
>>>>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
>>>>>>>> engine.
>>>>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
>>>>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
>>>>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
>>>>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
>>>>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
>>>>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
>>>>>> cylinder head in the last image.
>>>>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
>>>>>
>>>> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
>>>> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
>>>> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
>>>> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
>>>> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
>>>> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
>>>> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
>>>> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
>>>> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
>>>> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
>>>> temperatures.
>>> I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
>> A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
>> but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
>> to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
>> warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.
>>
>> While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
>> idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
>> dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
>> bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
>> and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.
>>
>> Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
>> sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
>> and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.
> Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.
>
> The new mower is a self-powered walk-behind. It has two 40V, 6Ah batteries. It takes a half-charge on one to mow my small front lawn, and a half-charge to mow my smallish back lawn. I switch between them to discharge each battery by half before re-charging. It's quiet, powerful, and hassle-free. I'm not ready for the robotic ones, but I can see their appeal.
>
I suppose with diesel engines small is relative but IIRC the engine is
like this Kelvin K2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY65XOQa45s . The
narrowboat it's in is quite new but the engine is vintage, a big slow
running lump, The boat's listing gives the power at 18hp.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> On 11/08/2021 17:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:16:02 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >> On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >>>> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> >>>>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
> >>>>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> >>>>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> >>>>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
> >>>>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> >>>>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> >>>>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> >>>>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> >>>>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
> >>>>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
> >>>>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
> >>>>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
> >>>>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> you still around.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
> >>>>>>>>> diesel
> >>>>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
> >>>>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
> >>>>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
> >>>>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
> >>>>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
> >>>>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
> >>>>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
> >>>>>>>>> probably
> >>>>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
> >>>>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
> >>>>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
> >>>>>>>> with different paint jobs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
> >>>>>>>> unlicensed copying.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
> >>>>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
> >>>>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
> >>>>>>>> engine.
> >>>>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
> >>>>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
> >>>>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
> >>>>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
> >>>>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
> >>>>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
> >>>>>> cylinder head in the last image.
> >>>>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
> >>>> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
> >>>> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
> >>>> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
> >>>> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
> >>>> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
> >>>> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
> >>>> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
> >>>> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
> >>>> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
> >>>> temperatures.
> >>> I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
> >> A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
> >> but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
> >> to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
> >> warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.
> >>
> >> While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
> >> idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
> >> dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
> >> bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
> >> and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.
> >>
> >> Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
> >> sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
> >> and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.
> > Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.
> >
> > The new mower is a self-powered walk-behind. It has two 40V, 6Ah batteries. It takes a half-charge on one to mow my small front lawn, and a half-charge to mow my smallish back lawn. I switch between them to discharge each battery by half before re-charging. It's quiet, powerful, and hassle-free. I'm not ready for the robotic ones, but I can see their appeal.
> >
> I suppose with diesel engines small is relative but IIRC the engine is
> like this Kelvin K2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY65XOQa45s . The
> narrowboat it's in is quite new but the engine is vintage, a big slow
> running lump, The boat's listing gives the power at 18hp.

On 11/08/2021 19:51, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> On 11/08/2021 17:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:16:02 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>>>> On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
>>>>>>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
>>>>>>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
>>>>>>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
>>>>>>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
>>>>>>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
>>>>>>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
>>>>>>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
>>>>>>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
>>>>>>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
>>>>>>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> you still around.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
>>>>>>>>>>> diesel
>>>>>>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
>>>>>>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
>>>>>>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
>>>>>>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
>>>>>>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
>>>>>>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
>>>>>>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
>>>>>>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>>>>>>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
>>>>>>>>>> with different paint jobs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
>>>>>>>>>> unlicensed copying.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
>>>>>>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
>>>>>>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
>>>>>>>>>> engine.
>>>>>>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
>>>>>>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
>>>>>>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
>>>>>>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
>>>>>>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
>>>>>>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
>>>>>>>> cylinder head in the last image.
>>>>>>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
>>>>>> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
>>>>>> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
>>>>>> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
>>>>>> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
>>>>>> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
>>>>>> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
>>>>>> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
>>>>>> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
>>>>>> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
>>>>>> temperatures.
>>>>> I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
>>>> A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
>>>> but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
>>>> to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
>>>> warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.
>>>>
>>>> While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
>>>> idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
>>>> dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
>>>> bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
>>>> and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.
>>>>
>>>> Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
>>>> sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
>>>> and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.
>>> Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.
>>>
>>> The new mower is a self-powered walk-behind. It has two 40V, 6Ah batteries. It takes a half-charge on one to mow my small front lawn, and a half-charge to mow my smallish back lawn. I switch between them to discharge each battery by half before re-charging. It's quiet, powerful, and hassle-free. I'm not ready for the robotic ones, but I can see their appeal.
>>>
>> I suppose with diesel engines small is relative but IIRC the engine is
>> like this Kelvin K2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY65XOQa45s . The
>> narrowboat it's in is quite new but the engine is vintage, a big slow
>> running lump, The boat's listing gives the power at 18hp.
> That engine reminds me of something that Vera Lynn used to sing: "There Will Always Be an England." It's just hard, sometimes, to keep it running. d8-)
>
> Or, as I once said after a tough day working on my MG, "England, the country of many oil cans."
>
The video comments indicated they may have had an issue in the injection
system from the way it wasn't starting well, the engine my mate has runs
beautifully the only issue last time I spoke to them was the starter
motor needed to be rebuilt/replaced so the husband had to hand start it.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 3:00:07 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> On 11/08/2021 19:51, Ed Huntress wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >> On 11/08/2021 17:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:16:02 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >>>> On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
> >>>>>>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
> >>>>>>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
> >>>>>>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> bob prohaska
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
> >>>>>>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
> >>>>>>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
> >>>>>>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> you still around.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
> >>>>>>>>>>> diesel
> >>>>>>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
> >>>>>>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
> >>>>>>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
> >>>>>>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
> >>>>>>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out.. Those model
> >>>>>>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
> >>>>>>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> probably
> >>>>>>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
> >>>>>>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
> >>>>>>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
> >>>>>>>>>> with different paint jobs.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress
> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
> >>>>>>>>>> unlicensed copying.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
> >>>>>>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
> >>>>>>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
> >>>>>>>>>> engine.
> >>>>>>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
> >>>>>>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
> >>>>>>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
> >>>>>>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
> >>>>>>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
> >>>>>>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
> >>>>>>>> cylinder head in the last image.
> >>>>>>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
> >>>>>> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
> >>>>>> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
> >>>>>> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
> >>>>>> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
> >>>>>> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
> >>>>>> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
> >>>>>> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
> >>>>>> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
> >>>>>> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
> >>>>>> temperatures.
> >>>>> I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
> >>>> A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
> >>>> but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
> >>>> to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
> >>>> warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.
> >>>>
> >>>> While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
> >>>> idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
> >>>> dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
> >>>> bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
> >>>> and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.
> >>>>
> >>>> Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
> >>>> sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
> >>>> and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.
> >>> Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.
> >>>
> >>> The new mower is a self-powered walk-behind. It has two 40V, 6Ah batteries. It takes a half-charge on one to mow my small front lawn, and a half-charge to mow my smallish back lawn. I switch between them to discharge each battery by half before re-charging. It's quiet, powerful, and hassle-free. I'm not ready for the robotic ones, but I can see their appeal.
> >>>
> >> I suppose with diesel engines small is relative but IIRC the engine is
> >> like this Kelvin K2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY65XOQa45s . The
> >> narrowboat it's in is quite new but the engine is vintage, a big slow
> >> running lump, The boat's listing gives the power at 18hp.
> > That engine reminds me of something that Vera Lynn used to sing: "There Will Always Be an England." It's just hard, sometimes, to keep it running. d8-)
> >
> > Or, as I once said after a tough day working on my MG, "England, the country of many oil cans."
> >
> The video comments indicated they may have had an issue in the injection
> system from the way it wasn't starting well, the engine my mate has runs
> beautifully the only issue last time I spoke to them was the starter
> motor needed to be rebuilt/replaced so the husband had to hand start it.

Diesel starting - probably mentioned elsewhere - anyway...
You need to keep cranking a diesel engine until it starts.

Improvised and quick - v. cold day on-land - put a towrope to an
LPG-fueled forklift-truck, get it trucking along and drop the clutch
on your diesel vehicle so it keeps cranking the engine as it's towed
along until it starts...

Russian way as I have seen on Russian equipment - a small gasoline
(petrol) cranking-engine to keep cranking the diesel for however long
it takes until it starts.

Hand-start - decompression-valve which "drops" when the engine has
spun a turn / up to a speed.

Just some observations. Ask the experts for details.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 3:39:48 PM UTC-4, Richard Smith wrote:
> Diesel starting - probably mentioned elsewhere - anyway...
> You need to keep cranking a diesel engine until it starts.
>
> Improvised and quick - v. cold day on-land - put a towrope to an
> LPG-fueled forklift-truck, get it trucking along and drop the clutch
> on your diesel vehicle so it keeps cranking the engine as it's towed
> along until it starts...
>
> Russian way as I have seen on Russian equipment - a small gasoline
> (petrol) cranking-engine to keep cranking the diesel for however long
> it takes until it starts.
>
> Hand-start - decompression-valve which "drops" when the engine has
> spun a turn / up to a speed.
>
> Just some observations. Ask the experts for details.

Richard, as I read this thread, I'm reminded that I may be lucky that I've never had to start a diesel engine. d8-)

(Well, I started a diesel VW Rabbit once. I don't remember much but that it was as easy as starting an IC engine.)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:64d77e15-ed07-4d4c-98c4-1f435ad16a73n@googlegroups.com...

That engine reminds me of something that Vera Lynn used to sing: "There Will
Always Be an England." It's just hard, sometimes, to keep it running. d8-)

Or, as I once said after a tough day working on my MG, "England, the country
of many oil cans."

--
Ed Huntress

---------------------------------

I just read that the Japanese were amazed that the Packard Merlin in a
captured P-51 didn't leak oil.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lya6lnpy80.fsf@void.com...

Diesel starting - probably mentioned elsewhere - anyway...
You need to keep cranking a diesel engine until it starts.

Improvised and quick - v. cold day on-land - put a towrope to an
LPG-fueled forklift-truck, get it trucking along and drop the clutch
on your diesel vehicle so it keeps cranking the engine as it's towed
along until it starts...

Russian way as I have seen on Russian equipment - a small gasoline
(petrol) cranking-engine to keep cranking the diesel for however long
it takes until it starts.

Hand-start - decompression-valve which "drops" when the engine has
spun a turn / up to a speed.

Just some observations. Ask the experts for details.

-------------------------

Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to pour
gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open the cowl
and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if they used both
at the same time.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:32ead5f3-36fd-436b-a13f-d98189a8b3e6n@googlegroups.com...

Richard, as I read this thread, I'm reminded that I may be lucky that I've
never had to start a diesel engine. d8-)

(Well, I started a diesel VW Rabbit once. I don't remember much but that it
was as easy as starting an IC engine.)

--
Ed Huntress

----------------------

When I was in Germany in the Army the winters were mild by NH standards,
more like NJ (Forts Dix and Monmouth). Sleeping outdoors on the ground
wasn't too bad. However snowy mountainous regions could become Very Cold at
night, on guard duty.

Their cars are very well designed for local conditions, especially the
winding Black Forest and Bavarian back roads. I didn't realize until later
how much I would have liked owning a BMW 2002 instead of my Beetle.

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:39:43 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
wrote:

>Diesel starting - probably mentioned elsewhere - anyway...
>You need to keep cranking a diesel engine until it starts.
>
>Improvised and quick - v. cold day on-land - put a towrope to an
>LPG-fueled forklift-truck, get it trucking along and drop the clutch
>on your diesel vehicle so it keeps cranking the engine as it's towed
>along until it starts...
>
>Russian way as I have seen on Russian equipment - a small gasoline
>(petrol) cranking-engine to keep cranking the diesel for however long
>it takes until it starts.
>
>Hand-start - decompression-valve which "drops" when the engine has
>spun a turn / up to a speed.
>
>Just some observations. Ask the experts for details.
Cat used to use a "pony engine" to start their big tractors (
actually even the little D2)

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT), Ed Huntress
<edhuntress2@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 12:16:02 PM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> On 11/08/2021 16:41, Ed Huntress wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> >> On 11/08/2021 15:26, Ed Huntress wrote:
>> >>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 10:22:24 AM UTC-4, David Billington wrote:
>> >>>> On 11/08/2021 14:34, Ed Huntress wrote:
>> >>>>> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 6:46:01 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> >>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>> >>>>>> news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...
>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 9:04:25 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> >>>>>>> "Ed Huntress" wrote in message
>> >>>>>>> news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...
>> >>>>>>> On Saturday, June 26, 2021 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-4, bob prohaska wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
>> >>>>>>>> common in very small engines, some of which seem
>> >>>>>>>> rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
>> >>>>>>>> larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
>> >>>>>>>> high-production types where tooling costs matter
>> >>>>>>>> less than per-part costs.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
>> >>>>>>>> one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
>> >>>>>>>> a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
>> >>>>>>>> of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
>> >>>>>>>> diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for reading,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> bob prohaska
>> >>>>>>> Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that
>> >>>>>>> the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a
>> >>>>>>> whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into
>> >>>>>>> it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many
>> >>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> you still around.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on
>> >>>>>>> diesel
>> >>>>>>> fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy
>> >>>>>>> and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel
>> >>>>>>> people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn
>> >>>>>>> diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether
>> >>>>>>> and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model
>> >>>>>>> "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't
>> >>>>>>> consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and
>> >>>>>>> probably
>> >>>>>>> since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the
>> >>>>>>> torsional load if you get the press-fit right.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> Ed Huntress
>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3
>> >>>>>> Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor,
>> >>>>>> with different paint jobs.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Ed Huntress
>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
>> >>>>>> unlicensed copying.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
>> >>>>>> use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
>> >>>>>> power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
>> >>>>>> engine.
>> >>>>> Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.
>> >>>> I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
>> >>>> compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
>> >>>> the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
>> >>>> without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
>> >>>> like the Yanmar it's the lever with the red knob to the right of the
>> >>>> cylinder head in the last image.
>> >>> The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.
>> >>>
>> >> I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
>> >> speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
>> >> lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
>> >> compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
>> >> lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
>> >> automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
>> >> hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
>> >> go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
>> >> start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
>> >> could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
>> >> temperatures.
>> > I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
>> A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
>> but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
>> to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
>> warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.
>>
>> While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
>> idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
>> dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
>> bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
>> and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.
>>
>> Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
>> sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
>> and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.
>
>Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.
>
IIRC the old Internatioal bulldozers used this system; while
Caterpillar used a "pup" motor on gasolene.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to
> pour gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open
> the cowl and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if
> they used both at the same time.

Gasoline would stop the diesel oil freezing in extreme cold?

Lighting a fire under the engine - better only on a mechanical
injector engine ? (not vulnerable to hot gases flowing over the
engine)
Not to be recommended in this time of engines festooned with
electronics and electrics boxes?

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybl61yses.fsf@richards-air-2.home...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to
> pour gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open
> the cowl and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if
> they used both at the same time.

Gasoline would stop the diesel oil freezing in extreme cold?

Lighting a fire under the engine - better only on a mechanical
injector engine ? (not vulnerable to hot gases flowing over the
engine)
Not to be recommended in this time of engines festooned with
electronics and electrics boxes?

-----------------------------------

AFAIK those deep-freeze weather fixes were for aircraft engines, I read of
them in a fighter pilot's memoirs. The BF-109 gasoline engine had mechanical
fuel injection.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybl61yses.fsf@richards-air-2.home...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to
> pour gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open
> the cowl and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if
> they used both at the same time.

Gasoline would stop the diesel oil freezing in extreme cold?
-----------------

In a dry-sump aero engine the oil resides in a separate tank instead of the
crankcase.

When Diesel cars such as the Rabbit appeared in the US in the 70's cold
northern areas had a problem with the wax component of the fuel condensing
into a mush that clogged the small lines and filters. The quick fix was to
dilute the fuel with gas or kerosine, until the refiners adjusted their
process to reduce the high-boiling distillates. Maybe that was why outdoor
trucks and locomotives idled all night?
https://www.truckinginfo.com/350359/keep-your-fuel-from-freezing-this-winter
-20C isn't uncommon at night here.

Our Army trucks had Multifuel engines that would run on either Diesel or
gasoline, without making any changes that I was told of. Mostly they used
gas, which was very cheap without the high German tax. Our monthly ration of
untaxed gas for personal vehicles was 200 liters except for small engined
cars that received 100l, in practice only VW Beetles. But at the end of the
month only Beetle owners had gas ration coupons left over.

Army life was practically pure communism in which they give you what you
need, by their definition, and work you according to your abilities, again
by their definition. Fortunately an army isn't required to be efficient or
productive, only destructive.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:57:15 +0100, Richard Smith <null@void.com>
wrote:

>"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to
>> pour gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open
>> the cowl and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if
>> they used both at the same time.
>
>Gasoline would stop the diesel oil freezing in extreme cold?
>
>Lighting a fire under the engine - better only on a mechanical
>injector engine ? (not vulnerable to hot gases flowing over the
>engine)
>Not to be recommended in this time of engines festooned with
>electronics and electrics boxes?
Remember, he was talking about RUSSIAN equipment - generally rough
as a cob low tech stuff - but yes, gasomine in the lubricating oil
thins it when cold and boils out when the engine gets upto
temperature. Has also been done on old aircraft engines.

The fire under the oil pan trick has also been used quite a bit - A
guy I used to work with started his Corvair in cold weather by
sticking a steel fence post wrapped with burlap and chicken wire into
a barrel of used motor oiland kerosene, lighting it and shoving it
under the back of the car beforeg oing in for breakfast after doing
his morning farm chares. The engine was toasty warm and ready to go
when he was ready to leave for work. The back of the butter yellow
corvair looked like it belonged to a driveway sealing outfit - covered
in "tar"