On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>
>>> YMMV.
>>
>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>>
>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>>
>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>
>>
> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.

""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
- Henry David Thoreau

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>>>>
>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>>>>
>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
> >
>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> >
>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>
>:-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>from Lil' Abner
>http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>to fall on yourself.
>
>However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>
>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>
>I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>
> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>"a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>strength."
>
> From
>https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>"Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>
> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>"Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>for properly."
>
> From
>https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>"A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>indefinitely."
>
>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>
>So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>so terrible? Maybe some data?
>
>I'm joking! Of course you can't!

"Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???

Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it."

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>>>>>
>>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>>>
>>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>>>
>>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>>
>> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>>from Lil' Abner
>> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> to fall on yourself.
>>
>> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>>
>>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>>
>> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>>
>> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> strength."
>>
>> From
>> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>>
>> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> for properly."
>>
>> From
>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> indefinitely."
>>
>>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>>
>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>
>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>
>
> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>
> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
> eventually come to believe it."
>

I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.

I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
motor service in all four thick books.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Am 20.01.2022 um 22:27 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:08:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 2:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One
>>>> of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles
>>>> and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct
>>>> Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing
>>>> its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this
>>>> isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't
>>>> understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the
>>>> speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window.
>>>> Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
>>>
>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets
>>> that go bad!
>>>
>>> My sympathies.
>>>
>>>
>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
>> electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>
> The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and
> which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch
> from the detector.
The newest cadence senosors work with acceleration sensors rather than
with magnets, I recently bought
<https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B08PCH8WN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>

- problem is to ensure you don't lose the buggers(after two weeks
using this, I lent the bike to my son, and it was gone after two days).

With these it should be feasible to attach the cadence sensor to your
shoe or ankle, especially attractive when you switch between several
bikes. Has anybody tried this yet?

Rolf

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
> > > > gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
> > > > to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
> > > > was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
> > > > last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
> > > > turn the unit off and then restart it.
>
> > > https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
> > > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
> > > you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
> > > any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
> > > data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
> > > screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
> > > customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
> > > like with the following information: [followed by graphic
> > > table]
> >
> > Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
> > understand anything?
> Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
> displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
> The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
> display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
>
> https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
>
>
> Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
>
> https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
>
> It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
>
Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:32:37 AM UTC-5, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 20.01.2022 um 22:27 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:08:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 2:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> >>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One
> >>>> of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles
> >>>> and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct
> >>>> Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing
> >>>> its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this
> >>>> isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't
> >>>> understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the
> >>>> speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window.
> >>>> Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
> >>>
> >>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets
> >>> that go bad!
> >>>
> >>> My sympathies.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
> >> electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
> >
> > The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and
> > which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch
> > from the detector.
> The newest cadence senosors work with acceleration sensors rather than
> with magnets, I recently bought
> <https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B08PCH8WN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>
> - problem is to ensure you don't lose the buggers(after two weeks
> using this, I lent the bike to my son, and it was gone after two days).
>
> With these it should be feasible to attach the cadence sensor to your
> shoe or ankle, especially attractive when you switch between several
> bikes. Has anybody tried this yet?
>
No, but that's a highly intriguing suggestion. I'm going to try it this weekend. I've already snapped two of the "rubber band" retainers on my Garmin cadence sensor and resorted to just leaving it on one bike. I'm sure I have a velcro strap I could fix the sensor to and try it. I like it!

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:32:37 AM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 20.01.2022 um 22:27 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:08:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 2:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> >>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One
> >>>> of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles
> >>>> and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct
> >>>> Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing
> >>>> its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this
> >>>> isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't
> >>>> understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the
> >>>> speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window.
> >>>> Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
> >>>
> >>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets
> >>> that go bad!
> >>>
> >>> My sympathies.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
> >> electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
> >
> > The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and
> > which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch
> > from the detector.
> The newest cadence senosors work with acceleration sensors rather than
> with magnets, I recently bought
> <https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B08PCH8WN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>
>

I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6

Lou

Am 21.01.2022 um 14:02 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:32:37 AM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 20.01.2022 um 22:27 schrieb Tom Kunich:
>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:08:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One
>>>>>> of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles
>>>>>> and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct
>>>>>> Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing
>>>>>> its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this
>>>>>> isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't
>>>>>> understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the
>>>>>> speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window.
>>>>>> Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
>>>>>
>>>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets
>>>>> that go bad!
>>>>>
>>>>> My sympathies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
>>>> electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>
>>> The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and
>>> which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch
>>> from the detector.
>> The newest cadence senosors work with acceleration sensors rather than
>> with magnets, I recently bought
>> <https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B08PCH8WN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
>>
> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>
> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6

OK, I bought and returned the Moov Fitness Tracker in 2017 which was
working on accelerometer data and assumed the others were working the
same way.

AS the Garmins use the earth magnet field, it's not so obvious whether
they work on a shoe/ankle as well.

Rolf

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
> >>>
> >>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> >>>
> >>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
> >>
> >> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
> >>from Lil' Abner
> >> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
> >> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
> >> to fall on yourself.
> >>
> >> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
> >> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
> >>
> >>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
> >>
> >> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
> >> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
> >>
> >> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
> >> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
> >> strength."
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
> >> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
> >>
> >> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
> >> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
> >> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
> >> for properly."
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
> >> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
> >> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
> >> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
> >> indefinitely."
> >>
> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >>
> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
> >>
> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
> >
> >
> > "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
> > are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
> >
> > Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
> > anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
> > that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
> > eventually come to believe it."
> >
> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>
> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
> motor service in all four thick books.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
That's because GM never was into servicing the way that Ford and especially Chrysler were. My Chrysler factory service manuals from the '60s through the '80s are thick tomes that tell you how to fix everything in great detail (including rebuilding the carburetor, overhauling the transmission, starter and alternator, etc.), because they wanted the dumbest mechanic in Podunk to be able to keep the customers happy. Same with Porsche. GM, not so much. They want to sell you a new car when the old one breaks.

On 1/21/2022 8:36 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>>>>>
>>>>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>>>>
>>>> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>>> >from Lil' Abner
>>>> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>>>> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>>>> to fall on yourself.
>>>>
>>>> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>>>> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>>>>
>>>> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>>>> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>>>>
>>>> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>>>> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>>>> strength."
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>>>> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>>>>
>>>> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>>>> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>>>> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>>>> for properly."
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>>>> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>>>> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>>>> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>>>> indefinitely."
>>>>
>>>>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>>>>
>>>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>>>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>>>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>>>
>>>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
>>> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>>>
>>> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>>> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
>>> eventually come to believe it."
>>>
>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>
>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>> motor service in all four thick books.

> That's because GM never was into servicing the way that Ford and especially Chrysler were. My Chrysler factory service manuals from the '60s through the '80s are thick tomes that tell you how to fix everything in great detail (including rebuilding the carburetor, overhauling the transmission, starter and alternator, etc.), because they wanted the dumbest mechanic in Podunk to be able to keep the customers happy. Same with Porsche. GM, not so much. They want to sell you a new car when the old one breaks.
>

I don't own any Chrysler manuals (never owned a Chrysler
product) but GM manuals cover myriad service details such as
soldering in new diodes to the alternator, rebuild/repair of
every other system. What fails in a Chrysler starter? Not
much, I would assume.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/20/2022 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>>>>>
>>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>>>
>>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>>>
>>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>>
>> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>>from Lil' Abner
>> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> to fall on yourself.
>>
>> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>>
>>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>>
>> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>>
>> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> strength."
>>
>> From
>> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>>
>> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> for properly."
>>
>> From
>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> indefinitely."
>>
>>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>>
>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>
>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>
>
> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>
> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
> eventually come to believe it."

That's a very fashionable practice these days in the U.S.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/20/2022 10:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience with
> maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the least trouble-prone
> systems is a 12v starter motor with big heavy iron magnets. Never saw
> one fail except for bearings and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick
> (best remedy- smack smartly with something heavy, especially in cold
> weather) but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>
> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so, since my auto
> library is nearby, I checked the official GM service manuals for 1963,
> 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each has 15 sections (engine specs/setup,
> cooling, exhaust, fuel, suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of
> starter motor service in all four thick books.

In all my years of car ownership, I recall exactly one problem with a
starter motor - but not with the motor itself. Intermittent failure to
crank became ever more common, till I removed the starter and found the
solenoid contacts had worn away.

The specified repair was to replace the unit, which I felt I couldn't
afford. Instead I used some scrap copper to fabricate new contacts.
Those worked for many years, until I dropped the car at a scrap yard.

Magnets? Never a problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/21/2022 5:34 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
>>>>> gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
>>>>> to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
>>>>> was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
>>>>> last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
>>>>> turn the unit off and then restart it.
>>
>>>> https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
>>>> Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
>>>> you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
>>>> any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
>>>> data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
>>>> screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
>>>> customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
>>>> like with the following information: [followed by graphic
>>>> table]
>>>
>>> Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
>>> understand anything?
>> Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
>> displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
>> The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
>> display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
>>
>> https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
>>
>>
>> Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
>>
>> https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
>>
>> It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
>>
> Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.

How odd. Familiarity usually builds confidence, or at least acceptance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>
> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6

On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.

OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> >
> > I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
> >
> > https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>
> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.

Lou

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:48:12 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> > Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
> > electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
> >
> > YMMV.
> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>
> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training motivation,
> to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it did that. In fact, one of
> my ancient Avocets has a "pace arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below
> my average speed. But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>
> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now just for idle
> curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go farther down the electronics
> rabbit hole.

When I need a cyclometer is on descents to make sure that I'm not overspeed for the various turns and bumps. But I cannot actually read them at that time. So the true use of them is simply to keep track of the distance for my diaries. Publishing my mileage on LeonardLee's blog has upped his mileage from 15-20 km per ride to 40. That wasn't exactly what it was meant to do, but rather to get him to ride further since he does have a weight problem that bothers him.

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:09:35 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
> > > > gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
> > > > to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
> > > > was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
> > > > last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
> > > > turn the unit off and then restart it.
>
> > > https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
> > > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
> > > you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
> > > any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
> > > data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
> > > screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
> > > customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
> > > like with the following information: [followed by graphic
> > > table]
> >
> > Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
> > understand anything?
> Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
> displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
> The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
> display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
>
> https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
>
>
> Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
>
> https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
>
> It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!

Ted, I haven't quite figured it out but although I would set up the page in "Train" it would always open in "Race" so I got around this by setting up the "Race" page settings the same as the "Train" so that if it ends up in either case I end up with the proper display. Reading back, I see that indeed Flunky was for a change talking about the subject. Thanks for pointing that out. So even Flunky can stick to the bicycles.tech subjects if he things he can demonstrate superiority in some regard.

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:32:01 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:17:56 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:08:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> > I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window. Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
> >> >> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> >> >Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either. Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity? Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >> "PM starter motors have such a high failure rate"???
> >>
> >> Tommy, I can't remember ever having to replace a starter motor and my
> >> experience with starters dates back to the late 1940's.
> >>
> >> So perhaps is you'd just scurry around and find us a tiny bit of proof
> >> that you knew what you were talking about it would make us just So
> >> happy, to know that Tommy boy "got it right" for, perhaps, the first
> >> time in the history of the Internet.
> >
> >John, can you please continue to show us your ignorance? Starter motors used to be DC electromagnetic until the search for lighter weight to give higher gas mileage started in earnest in the 1990's. I love it when you should your vast knowledge of so many things.
> Tommy, as I said earlier I've been around autos and their starter
> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>
> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>
> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
> madly toward the finish line.

And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:17:22 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
> >> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
> >>
> >> YMMV.
> >
> > There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
> >
> > When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
> > motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
> > did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
> > arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
> > But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
> >
> > I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> > just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> > farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >
> >
> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
> Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
> never reconsidered.

You are in no way unusual. Many people have no interest in either speed or distance. I was sort of trying to maintain a constant ride distance to not completely exhaust myself. That allows me to work my way up to centuries slowly so that I'm not left in the dust and numb from exhaustion. Many people wouldn't even consider such rides. So they have no need for any of that. I suppose I shouldn't either at my time of life, but it is now a 40 year habit.

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:18:14 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 4:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch from the detector. The only one I have has a magnet that zip ties onto the end of the cranks arm and because the arm has a recess to lighten it up, it doesn't pass nearly as close. The detector zip ties onto the chain stay but unless you have everything set perfectly on, the slightest rotation on the chain stay such as occurs on bumpy roads causes part of the detector to slide slightly down the tapered chain stay, misalign slightly and miss the passing magnet.
> Wow. I'm sensing an amazing lack of mechanical aptitude.
>
> I've a cadence sensor on our tandem. It caused a bit of trouble because
> mounting the magnet on the left front crank caused the magnet holder to
> come too close to the timing chain. I substituted a thin, strong NdFeB
> magnet epoxied in place. It works. It's just a magnet, not rocket science..
>
> If the pickup is moving down a tapered frame tube, use a bit of double
> sided mounting tape to help keep it in place. If necessary, add shims to
> get the sensor oriented as needed.
>
> Other people can figure these things out.

I'm sensing someone that doesn't care what damage someone does to their bike so that you can make your stupid claims. Epoxy and double sided tape is the sort of thing you do on your bike huh? No wonder you prefer 1970's technology.

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
> >>>>
> >>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
> >>>>
> >>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
> > >
> >>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> > >
> >> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
> >
> >:-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
> >from Lil' Abner
> >http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
> >although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
> >to fall on yourself.
> >
> >However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
> >can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
> >
> >> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
> >
> >I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
> >better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
> >
> > From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
> >"a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
> >strength."
> >
> > From
> >https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
> >"Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
> >
> > From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
> >"Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
> >strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
> >for properly."
> >
> > From
> >https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
> >"A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
> >Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
> >Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
> >indefinitely."
> >
> >> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >
> >So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> >Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> >so terrible? Maybe some data?
> >
> >I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>
>
> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>
> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
> eventually come to believe it."

The little fat man living in a foreign country under a tyranny always has intelligent things to say as long as he can find them on Google.

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
> >>>
> >>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> >>>
> >>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
> >>
> >> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
> >>from Lil' Abner
> >> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
> >> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
> >> to fall on yourself.
> >>
> >> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
> >> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
> >>
> >>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
> >>
> >> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
> >> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
> >>
> >> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
> >> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
> >> strength."
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
> >> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
> >>
> >> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
> >> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
> >> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
> >> for properly."
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
> >> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
> >> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
> >> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
> >> indefinitely."
> >>
> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >>
> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
> >>
> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
> >
> >
> > "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
> > are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
> >
> > Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
> > anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
> > that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
> > eventually come to believe it."
> >
> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>
> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
> motor service in all four thick books.

As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They were electro-magnetic in operation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/

Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like my Taurus.

I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets. Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure

I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15 years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974 buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight, and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.

> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car.

That's usually a corrosion issue.

> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.

Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.

> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.

Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters every time, you were cheated.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:33:14 -0800 (PST),
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:09:35 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > > And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page
> > > > > that gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to
> > > > > discover how to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up
> > > > > in some page that was seemingly trying to get me to ride
> > > > > faster than I did last ride. And the only way I could
> > > > > get out of that was to turn the unit off and then
> > > > > restart it.
> >
> > > > https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
> > > > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re
> > > > riding, you???ll have a number of data fields that can be
> > > > displayed at any one point in time. You can set up to 10
> > > > data fields per data screen (up from eight), and have up
> > > > to 3 primary data screens, in addition to map and course
> > > > based screens. You can customize all of these screens and
> > > > data fields however you???d like with the following
> > > > information: [followed by graphic table]
> > >
> > > Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you
> > > don't understand anything?
> > Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that
> > the displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable.
> > I think The posted link lists the parameters that can be
> > chosen for display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very
> > long page...
> >
> > https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
> >
> >
> > Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
> >
> > https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
> >
> > It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
>
> Ted, I haven't quite figured it out but although I would set up
> the page in "Train" it would always open in "Race" so I got
> around this by setting up the "Race" page settings the same as
> the "Train" so that if it ends up in either case I end up with
> the proper display.

Sounds like you're on the right track. For what it's worth, I've
always found it confusing to have these configurations within the
individual profiles. It makes sense once you get used to it, but
at first (and still later at times) it was hard to figure out.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>>
>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
>> earth magnetic field.
>>
>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>
> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>
> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>
>

What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?

https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift

Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
Magnetism Change?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971