On 1/21/2022 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>>>>>
>>>>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>>>>
>>>> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>>> >from Lil' Abner
>>>> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>>>> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>>>> to fall on yourself.
>>>>
>>>> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>>>> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>>>>
>>>> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>>>> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>>>>
>>>> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>>>> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>>>> strength."
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>>>> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>>>>
>>>> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>>>> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>>>> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>>>> for properly."
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>>>> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>>>> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>>>> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>>>> indefinitely."
>>>>
>>>>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>>>>
>>>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>>>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>>>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>>>
>>>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
>>> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>>>
>>> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>>> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
>>> eventually come to believe it."
>>>
>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>
>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>> motor service in all four thick books.
>
> As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They were electro-magnetic in operation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/
>
> Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like my Taurus.
>
> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets. Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
>

That's a stuck solenoid, not a DC motor or magnet failure.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/21/2022 1:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank
>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being
>>>>>>>> 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I
>>>>>>>> didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference
>>>>>>>> between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off
>>>>>>>> of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike
>>>>>>>> trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you
>>>>>>>> could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some
>>>>>>>> paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So
>>>>>>>> I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough
>>>>>>>> traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike
>>>>>>>> path.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail
>>>>>>>> because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the
>>>>>>>> Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the
>>>>>>>> road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much
>>>>>>>> traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just
>>>>>>>> rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds
>>>>>>>> the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather
>>>>>>>> surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite
>>>>>>>> direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This
>>>>>>>> is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with
>>>>>>>> that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal
>>>>>>>> markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum.
>>>>>>>> But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot
>>>>>>>> less than usual.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of
>>>>>>>> the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and
>>>>>>>> then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct
>>>>>>>> Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing
>>>>>>>> its magnetism...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets
>>>>>>> that go bad!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters
>>>>>> and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant
>>>>>> problems either.
>>>>>
>>>>> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>>>> >from Lil' Abner
>>>>> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>>>>> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune
>>>>> seems
>>>>> to fall on yourself.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>>>>> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the
>>>>>> materials they are made from and their relative strength and
>>>>>> longevity?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>>>>> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>>>>>
>>>>>  From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>>>>> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose
>>>>> half its
>>>>> strength."
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>>>>>
>>>>> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for
>>>>> centuries."
>>>>>
>>>>>  From
>>>>> https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>>>>> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>>>>> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>>>>> for properly."
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>>>>>
>>>>> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>>>>> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>>>>> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>>>>> indefinitely."
>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high
>>>>>> failure rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>>>>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>>>>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
>>>> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>>>>
>>>> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>>>> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>>>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people
>>>> will
>>>> eventually come to believe it."
>>>>
>>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>>
>>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>>> motor service in all four thick books.
>>
>> As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not
>> use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They
>> were electro-magnetic in operation.
>> https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/
>>
>>
>> Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent
>> magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave
>> increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of
>> the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the
>> average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like
>> my Taurus.
>>
>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a
>> starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a
>> pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said
>> that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't
>> start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.  Upon
>> arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn
>> over.
>>
>
> That's a stuck solenoid, not a DC motor or magnet failure.

On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>>>
>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>
>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.

Ah yes, such benefits.

How have bicyclists ever survived without that?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>
>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>
>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>
>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>> madly toward the finish line.
>
> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.

Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
problem, and it's been known for many decades.

True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
starter when it wouldn't start.

She wasn't an engineer either.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/21/2022 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:18:14 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 4:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch from the detector. The only one I have has a magnet that zip ties onto the end of the cranks arm and because the arm has a recess to lighten it up, it doesn't pass nearly as close. The detector zip ties onto the chain stay but unless you have everything set perfectly on, the slightest rotation on the chain stay such as occurs on bumpy roads causes part of the detector to slide slightly down the tapered chain stay, misalign slightly and miss the passing magnet.
>> Wow. I'm sensing an amazing lack of mechanical aptitude.
>>
>> I've a cadence sensor on our tandem. It caused a bit of trouble because
>> mounting the magnet on the left front crank caused the magnet holder to
>> come too close to the timing chain. I substituted a thin, strong NdFeB
>> magnet epoxied in place. It works. It's just a magnet, not rocket science.
>>
>> If the pickup is moving down a tapered frame tube, use a bit of double
>> sided mounting tape to help keep it in place. If necessary, add shims to
>> get the sensor oriented as needed.
>>
>> Other people can figure these things out.
>
> I'm sensing someone that doesn't care what damage someone does to their bike so that you can make your stupid claims. Epoxy and double sided tape is the sort of thing you do on your bike huh? No wonder you prefer 1970's technology.

Well, my bikes work.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 8:00:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
> >>>
> >>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> >> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
> >>
> >> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
> Ah yes, such benefits.
>
> How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Is there a reason for this snotty remark? What makes this sensor more complex in use then a ‘classic’ wired or wireless senson. For the user it is easier to set up. What is the problem with that?

Lou

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
>>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>>
>>>> YMMV.
>>>
>>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>>>
>>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
>>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
>>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
>>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
>>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>>>
>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>
>>>
>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
>> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
>
> ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
> - Henry David Thoreau
>
>
I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!

I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature
interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.

I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more
there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by.

The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or
ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my
wife knowledge that I can be contacted.

And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your
a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods
and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!

That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
display.

Roger Merriman

On 1/21/2022 1:43 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
>>>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> YMMV.
>>>>
>>>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>>>>
>>>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
>>>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
>>>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
>>>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
>>>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>>>>
>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
>>> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
>>
>> ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
>> - Henry David Thoreau
>>
>>
> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
> I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>
> I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature
> interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.
>
> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more
> there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by.
>
> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
> useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or
> ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my
> wife knowledge that I can be contacted.
>
> And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your
> a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods
> and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!
>
> That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
> performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
> display.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

I for one have no problem with any of that. If you find the
data interesting it's never been more accurate, more richly
presented nor more affordable.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:53:30 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
> >>>
> >>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> >>>
> >>> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
> >>
> >> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
> >>from Lil' Abner
> >> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
> >> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
> >> to fall on yourself.
> >>
> >> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
> >> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
> >>
> >>> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
> >>
> >> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
> >> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
> >>
> >> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
> >> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
> >> strength."
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
> >> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
> >>
> >> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
> >> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
> >> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
> >> for properly."
> >>
> >> From
> >> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
> >> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
> >> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
> >> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
> >> indefinitely."
> >>
> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >>
> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
> >>
> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
> >
> >
> > "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
> > are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
> >
> > Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
> > anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
> > that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
> > eventually come to believe it."
> That's a very fashionable practice these days in the U.S.

You in particular seem to be a purveyor of that practice. You supposedly taught mechanical engineering so it would have been a simple thing for you to explain to small fat Johnny that earlier starter motors used electromagnets and not PM's.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 10:10:56 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
> >> earth magnetic field.
> >>
> >> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> >
> > On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
> >
> > OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
> >
> >
> What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
>
> https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
>
> Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
> hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
> Magnetism Change?
GPS satellites don't care what the polarity of the Earth's magnetic poles are.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
> >> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
> >> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
> >>
> >> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
> >> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
> >>
> >> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
> >> madly toward the finish line.
> >
> > And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem..
> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>
> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
> starter when it wouldn't start.
>
> She wasn't an engineer either.

Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress as rapidly as electronics.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
> >>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
> >>>>
> >>>> YMMV.
> >>>
> >>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
> >>>
> >>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
> >>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
> >>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
> >>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
> >>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
> >>>
> >>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
> >> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
> >
> > ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
> > - Henry David Thoreau
> >
> >
> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
> I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>
> I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature
> interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.
>
> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more
> there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by.
>
> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
> useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or
> ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my
> wife knowledge that I can be contacted.
>
> And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your
> a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods
> and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!
>
> That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
> performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
> display.

It appears that the 830 has a LOT more features than the 820 has. Plus the menu BS of the 820 was entirely unnecessary. They should have hired me to design the firmware. You should have been able to simply open the main screen and poke and area and assign a feature to it. This is EASY because all of the firmware there presently tried to do it but fell way short.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:48:10 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 1:43 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
> >>>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> YMMV.
> >>>>
> >>>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
> >>>>
> >>>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
> >>>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
> >>>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
> >>>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
> >>>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
> >>>>
> >>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
> >>> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
> >>
> >> ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
> >> - Henry David Thoreau
> >>
> >>
> > I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
> > I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
> >
> > I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature
> > interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.
> >
> > I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more
> > there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by..
> >
> > The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
> > useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or
> > ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my
> > wife knowledge that I can be contacted.
> >
> > And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your
> > a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods
> > and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!
> >
> > That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
> > performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
> > display.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> >
>
> I for one have no problem with any of that. If you find the
> data interesting it's never been more accurate, more richly
> presented nor more affordable.

Distance and time seem to be well presented and accurate but power readings from Strava fall not even close to a regular power meter. All that means is the bragging rights people have been claiming are pretty poor.

On 1/21/2022 2:30 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 8:00:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
>> Ah yes, such benefits.
>>
>> How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Is there a reason for this snotty remark?

Good grief, Lou, you're touchy!

> What makes this sensor more complex in use then a ‘classic’ wired or wireless senson. For the user it is easier to set up. What is the problem with that?

Hey, if you want it, fine; use it proudly. I don't want it.

We might consider an entire spectrum of bicycle-related complexity, from
a brakeless fixie on one end to perhaps a battery assisted, automatic
transmission, dual suspension monstrosity with automatic brake lights,
turn signals, rear-facing radar, HRM, and navigation system plus total
internet connectivity. Such a bike might even know where the hills are
and process that data with your heart rate to decide your gears for you.
(What could go wrong?)

I suppose each person's sweet spot on that spectrum would be different.
I prefer the simpler end of the spectrum. If my cadence sensor stopped
working (and I even cared) I'd prefer to check whether the pickup had
been bumped; not whether the sending device's battery had died, or water
had corroded its battery contacts, or some micro capacitor had failed,
or I'd gotten too close to some stray source of magnetism, or the
earth's magnetic field had shifted.

But YMMV, obviously.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:10:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
> >>>
> >>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual..
> >>>
> >>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
> >
> >> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
> >
> > Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
> :-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
> from Lil' Abner
> http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
> although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
> to fall on yourself.
>
> However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
> can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
> > Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
> I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
> better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>
> From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
> "a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
> strength."
>
> From
> https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
> "Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>
> From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
> "Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
> strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
> for properly."
>
> From
> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
> "A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
> Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
> Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
> indefinitely."
> > Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>
> I'm joking! Of course you can't!

Frank, I know that without any knowledge of the subject, like fat Johnny you believe that you can google something that will explain all to your advantage but you can't. If you take the PM and hit it a couple of times against a hard surface like an anvil it can totally lose its magnetism. This is nothing more than forcing the atoms back into a disordered state from the ordered state that they were forced into either with another strong magnet or electromagntic fields.

This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.

Why must you continue to show us all how poor a teacher you were?

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:34:49 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > > And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
> > > > > gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
> > > > > to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
> > > > > was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
> > > > > last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
> > > > > turn the unit off and then restart it.
> >
> > > > https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
> > > > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
> > > > you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
> > > > any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
> > > > data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
> > > > screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
> > > > customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
> > > > like with the following information: [followed by graphic
> > > > table]
> > >
> > > Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
> > > understand anything?
> > Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
> > displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
> > The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
> > display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
> >
> > https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
> >
> >
> > Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
> >
> > https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
> >
> > It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
> >
> Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.

You have a phobia of knowledge of any kind. You and Scharf should get together.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:34:49 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
> > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
> > > > > > gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
> > > > > > to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
> > > > > > was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
> > > > > > last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
> > > > > > turn the unit off and then restart it.
> > >
> > > > > https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
> > > > > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
> > > > > you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
> > > > > any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
> > > > > data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
> > > > > screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
> > > > > customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
> > > > > like with the following information: [followed by graphic
> > > > > table]
> > > >
> > > > Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
> > > > understand anything?
> > > Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
> > > displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
> > > The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
> > > display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
> > >
> > > https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
> > >
> > > https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
> > >
> > > It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
> > >
> > Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.
>
> You have a phobia of knowledge of any kind. You and Scharf should get together.

Sure, mr. "light line".

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 8:00:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> > >> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
> > >>
> > >> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > > Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
> > Ah yes, such benefits.
> >
> > How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Is there a reason for this snotty remark?

It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame. Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues, but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"

On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>
>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>
>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>
>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.
>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>
>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>
>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>
> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress as rapidly as electronics.
>

How new?
Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.

https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/21/2022 2:33 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:34:49 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:09:35 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:23:49 -0800 (PST),
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:50:59 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:27:52 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that
>>>>>>> gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how
>>>>>>> to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that
>>>>>>> was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did
>>>>>>> last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to
>>>>>>> turn the unit off and then restart it.
>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
>>>>>> Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
>>>>>> you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at
>>>>>> any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
>>>>>> data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
>>>>>> screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can
>>>>>> customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d
>>>>>> like with the following information: [followed by graphic
>>>>>> table]
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
>>>>> understand anything?
>>>> Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
>>>> displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
>>>> The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
>>>> display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...
>>>>
>>>> https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...
>>>>
>>>> https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html
>>>>
>>>> It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!
>>>>
>>> Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.
>>
>> You have a phobia of knowledge of any kind. You and Scharf should get together.
>
> Sure, mr. "light line".
>

'Light line' ?? Isn't that a skinner serving of cocaine than
usual, as in 'Hey man, that's a light line' ?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> >>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>
> >> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped
> >> it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never
> >> reconsidered.
> >
> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I
> don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>
> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I find
> the temperature interesting though to be honest not needed,
> same goes for my altitude.
>
> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how
> much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely bothered by.
>
> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is,
> is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop
> to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk etc. plus
> having had life changing injury gives my wife knowledge that I
> can be contacted.

Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the pavement
when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I could make it
home on my own.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 1/21/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:10:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> so terrible? Maybe some data?
>>
>> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>
> Frank, I know that without any knowledge of the subject, like fat Johnny you believe that you can google something that will explain all to your advantage but you can't. If you take the PM and hit it a couple of times against a hard surface like an anvil it can totally lose its magnetism. This is nothing more than forcing the atoms back into a disordered state from the ordered state that they were forced into either with another strong magnet or electromagntic fields.

I can only conclude that you have never, ever even played with a modern
permanent magnet.

> This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.

First, since you haven't done so, you apparently _cannot_ provide
evidence that such starter motor failures are common. The only source
seems to be your "memory."

But if you're so confident you're correct, a job at Tesla awaits you.
They seem to think permanent magnet motors are just fine. They're used
in many of their cars. They obviously need your amazing technical
knowledge to stave off financial disaster!

https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla-model-3-motor-designer-permanent-magnet-motor/

(How many Teslas have you seen parked at roadside with failed drive
motors?)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:06:44 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:10:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
> >>
> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
> >
> > Frank, I know that without any knowledge of the subject, like fat Johnny you believe that you can google something that will explain all to your advantage but you can't. If you take the PM and hit it a couple of times against a hard surface like an anvil it can totally lose its magnetism. This is nothing more than forcing the atoms back into a disordered state from the ordered state that they were forced into either with another strong magnet or electromagntic fields.
> I can only conclude that you have never, ever even played with a modern
> permanent magnet.
> > This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.
> First, since you haven't done so, you apparently _cannot_ provide
> evidence that such starter motor failures are common. The only source
> seems to be your "memory."
>
> But if you're so confident you're correct, a job at Tesla awaits you.
> They seem to think permanent magnet motors are just fine. They're used
> in many of their cars. They obviously need your amazing technical
> knowledge to stave off financial disaster!
>
> https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla-model-3-motor-designer-permanent-magnet-motor/
>
> (How many Teslas have you seen parked at roadside with failed drive
> motors?)

Continue to show your ignorance on every subject. It does make you really look like the person you really are. Saying that I have never played with magnets as an electronic engineer and designed MANY motor drive designs makes you look oh just so intelligent. All it would have taken was to look it up but you're so confident in your knowledge you couldn't even do that.

https://www.thoughtco.com/how-to-demagnetize-a-magnet-607873 - not the part that says that you can demagnetize a permanent magnet by hammering. So explain to them how you're so fucking knowledgeable about magnets that they have obviously never played with modern magnets.

A fool often believes his own words even when they make no sense at all.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:36:22 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:32:01 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:17:56 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:08:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >> > I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window. Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
>> >> >> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>> >> >Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either. Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity? Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> >> "PM starter motors have such a high failure rate"???
>> >>
>> >> Tommy, I can't remember ever having to replace a starter motor and my
>> >> experience with starters dates back to the late 1940's.
>> >>
>> >> So perhaps is you'd just scurry around and find us a tiny bit of proof
>> >> that you knew what you were talking about it would make us just So
>> >> happy, to know that Tommy boy "got it right" for, perhaps, the first
>> >> time in the history of the Internet.
>> >
>> >John, can you please continue to show us your ignorance? Starter motors used to be DC electromagnetic until the search for lighter weight to give higher gas mileage started in earnest in the 1990's. I love it when you should your vast knowledge of so many things.
>> Tommy, as I said earlier I've been around autos and their starter
>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>
>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>
>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>> madly toward the finish line.
>
>And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.

But Tommy, as I stated and Andrew stated and Frank stated... starter
motors of any sort almost never fail. As I said, in some 70 years of
experience I've never seen a starter fail electrically.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:46:44 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...
>> > >
>> >>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>> > >
>> >> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>> >
>> >:-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>> >from Lil' Abner
>> >http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> >although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> >to fall on yourself.
>> >
>> >However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> >can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>> >
>> >> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>> >
>> >I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> >better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>> >
>> > From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> >"a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> >strength."
>> >
>> > From
>> >https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> >"Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>> >
>> > From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> >"Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> >strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> >for properly."
>> >
>> > From
>> >https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> >"A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> >Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> >Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> >indefinitely."
>> >
>> >> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> >
>> >So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> >Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> >so terrible? Maybe some data?
>> >
>> >I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>>
>>
>> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures
>> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>>
>> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
>> eventually come to believe it."
>
>The little fat man living in a foreign country under a tyranny always has intelligent things to say as long as he can find them on Google.

"The little fat man living in a foreign country under a tyranny"???
My goodness Tommy but your dementia is running away with you this
morning, isn't it.

Fat man? I weighed 61 kg this morning. Is that fat? and as for
Tyranny" the government here from the national legislature to village
head men are all elected and no claims of Vote Fraud as in the U.S.

And.... our P.M doesn't dye his hair or wear a girdle and go about
"grabbing women by the pussy" as your hero brags he does.
--
Cheers,

John B.