On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:06:44 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 5:10:19 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
> >> So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
> >> Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
> >> so terrible? Maybe some data?
> >>
> >> I'm joking! Of course you can't!
> >
> > Frank, I know that without any knowledge of the subject, like fat Johnny you believe that you can google something that will explain all to your advantage but you can't. If you take the PM and hit it a couple of times against a hard surface like an anvil it can totally lose its magnetism. This is nothing more than forcing the atoms back into a disordered state from the ordered state that they were forced into either with another strong magnet or electromagntic fields.
> I can only conclude that you have never, ever even played with a modern
> permanent magnet.

As I wrote earlier, If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.

> > This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.
> First, since you haven't done so, you apparently _cannot_ provide
> evidence that such starter motor failures are common. The only source
> seems to be your "memory."
>
> But if you're so confident you're correct, a job at Tesla awaits you.
> They seem to think permanent magnet motors are just fine. They're used
> in many of their cars. They obviously need your amazing technical
> knowledge to stave off financial disaster!
>
> https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla-model-3-motor-designer-permanent-magnet-motor/
>
> (How many Teslas have you seen parked at roadside with failed drive
> motors?)
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:56:43 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 9:45:19 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > > Is there a reason for this snotty remark?
> > It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame.
>
> Don't you think we can do with a little less sarcasm here? I think we do.
>
> > Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues,
>
> That was my point. It is less complicated for most people but we get 'sarcasm' from someone who doesn't actual use it.
>
> >but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"
>
> That was not the point. Someone mentioned here how the latest cadence/speed sensors work. I corrected that with a link and dang here comes Frank saying it is complicated and fool that I am I tried to explain why it isn't complicated but more simple and than we get sarcasm. The whole process pisses me off. I think I go 'visit' Jay for a while. WTF.
>
Lou, I think we need more people here with less vitriol, not the other way around, and yes we could do with less sarcasm. However, before we can get to that level, we need to get rid of certain members who post off-topic lies, misinformation, and hate, then attack anyone who disagrees with them as stupid, fat, ignorant, communist, fascist, ......etc. regardless of evidence presented showing their claims are incorrect. When discussion topics like the ones below are posted consistently, a little sarcasm which was _not_ directed at anyone personally is the least of our (admittedly first-world) problems here.

45% of Democrats want Concentration Camps for Unvaccinated
UK Government also says Tom Kunich Right, you Monkeys Wrong
New York Times says Tom Kunich right, RBT monkeys wrong
CDC Director Rochelle Walensky says Tom Kunich right, you monkeys wrong
Amateur Hour: Another Day, Another CDC COVID Reversal
Even the pretense of science is gone from global warming hysteria
If this is even half-true
More on Covid-19
Portrait of the netstalker Peter Howard, AKA funk master
An unquestionable disgrace of American "Justice"
Comedy at its finest

That's just the past month. I unfortunately get sucked into it - mea culpa - but I appreciate the fact that you manage to stay above the fray.

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:38:28 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:56:43 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 9:45:19 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > Is there a reason for this snotty remark?
> > > It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame.
> >
> > Don't you think we can do with a little less sarcasm here? I think we do.
> >
> > > Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues,
> >
> > That was my point. It is less complicated for most people but we get 'sarcasm' from someone who doesn't actual use it.
> >
> > >but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"
> >
> > That was not the point. Someone mentioned here how the latest cadence/speed sensors work. I corrected that with a link and dang here comes Frank saying it is complicated and fool that I am I tried to explain why it isn't complicated but more simple and than we get sarcasm. The whole process pisses me off. I think I go 'visit' Jay for a while. WTF.
> >
> Lou, I think we need more people here with less vitriol, not the other way around, and yes we could do with less sarcasm. However, before we can get to that level, we need to get rid of certain members who post off-topic lies, misinformation, and hate, then attack anyone who disagrees with them as stupid, fat, ignorant, communist, fascist, ......etc. regardless of evidence presented showing their claims are incorrect. When discussion topics like the ones below are posted consistently, a little sarcasm which was _not_ directed at anyone personally is the least of our (admittedly first-world) problems here.
>
> 45% of Democrats want Concentration Camps for Unvaccinated
> UK Government also says Tom Kunich Right, you Monkeys Wrong
> New York Times says Tom Kunich right, RBT monkeys wrong
> CDC Director Rochelle Walensky says Tom Kunich right, you monkeys wrong
> Amateur Hour: Another Day, Another CDC COVID Reversal
> Even the pretense of science is gone from global warming hysteria
> If this is even half-true
> More on Covid-19
> Portrait of the netstalker Peter Howard, AKA funk master
> An unquestionable disgrace of American "Justice"
> Comedy at its finest
>
> That's just the past month. I unfortunately get sucked into it - mea culpa - but I appreciate the fact that you manage to stay above the fray.

If you use a dedicated Newsgroup reader you can simply killfile those trolls and those who persist in responding to them.

If you don't use a dedicated Newsgroup reader, you cab simply not click on any threads they start or hijack.

Doing either saves me a lot of aggravation.

Cheers

On 1/21/2022 11:24 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:12:22 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:45:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How new?
>>>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have both.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear� is driven by the starter
>>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>>
>>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>>
>>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>>
>>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>>
>>> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
>>> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
>>> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>>>
>>> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
>>> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
>>> motor.
>>> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>>>
>>
>> See also:
>> https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison
>
> That is getting very much into semantics.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor
>
> It probably depends on who is saying what to who. For example, I
> worked for a year or so as an Interior Electrician at an Air Base and
> we used Solenoid to identify any electrically operated switch and we
> never used the term "contactor" for any purpose.

Sounds to me like "contactor" is defined as a "relay" with unusually
high current capacity. If I'm right, that would make "contactor" a
subset of "relay."

In the broadest sense, "solenoid" doesn't have to imply that the device
controls electricity. In robotic workcells we often used solenoid
controlled pneumatic valves. The solenoid (that is, the coil + metal
actuator) shifted the valve spool to change the direction of air flow;
as opposed to operating contacts to change electrical flow.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/21/2022 9:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 8:05 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or
>>>>>>>>>> malfunction
>>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience
>>>>>>>>>> encompassed
>>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are
>>>>>>>>>> galloping
>>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise
>>>>>>>>> seem to
>>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was
>>>>>>>>> how I
>>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to
>>>>>>>>> talk
>>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a
>>>>>>>> motor
>>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke
>>>>>>>> bottle she
>>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices
>>>>>>> progress
>>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How new?
>>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They have both.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies
>>>>> voltage to the
>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by
>>>>> the starter
>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out
>>>>> on the
>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to
>>>>> start the
>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the
>>>>> engine,
>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you).
>>>> Bendix
>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>
>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>
>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>
>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>
>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
>> spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
>> current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel
>> gear.
>>
>
> Yes, subtle but all 'of a type'. Nothing we've discussed indicates any
> particular problem or degradation of permanent magnet DC starter motors.

+1

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/22/2022 5:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Someone mentioned here how the latest cadence/speed sensors work. I corrected that with a link and dang here comes Frank saying it is complicated and fool that I am I tried to explain why it isn't complicated but more simple and than we get sarcasm. The whole process pisses me off.

Again, Lou, you seem to carry a permanent chip on your shoulder. Relax.
Every quip is not meant to be an insult.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 11:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:12:22 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:45:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>>>>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>>>>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>>>>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>>>>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>>>>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>>>>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>>>>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>>>>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>>>>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>>>>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>>>>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How new?
>>>>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>>>>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They have both.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>>>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear� is driven by the starter
>>>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
>>>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>>>
>>>> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
>>>> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
>>>> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>>>>
>>>> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
>>>> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
>>>> motor.
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>>>>
>>>
>>> See also:
>>> https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison
>>
>> That is getting very much into semantics.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor
>>
>> It probably depends on who is saying what to who. For example, I
>> worked for a year or so as an Interior Electrician at an Air Base and
>> we used Solenoid to identify any electrically operated switch and we
>> never used the term "contactor" for any purpose.
>
> Sounds to me like "contactor" is defined as a "relay" with unusually
> high current capacity. If I'm right, that would make "contactor" a
> subset of "relay."
>
> In the broadest sense, "solenoid" doesn't have to imply that the device
> controls electricity. In robotic workcells we often used solenoid
> controlled pneumatic valves. The solenoid (that is, the coil + metal
> actuator) shifted the valve spool to change the direction of air flow;
> as opposed to operating contacts to change electrical flow.
>

Sounds about right from here.

On 1/22/2022 7:07 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:38:28 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:56:43 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 9:45:19 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Is there a reason for this snotty remark?
>>>> It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame.
>>>
>>> Don't you think we can do with a little less sarcasm here? I think we do.
>>>
>>>> Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues,
>>>
>>> That was my point. It is less complicated for most people but we get 'sarcasm' from someone who doesn't actual use it.
>>>
>>>> but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"
>>>
>>> That was not the point. Someone mentioned here how the latest cadence/speed sensors work. I corrected that with a link and dang here comes Frank saying it is complicated and fool that I am I tried to explain why it isn't complicated but more simple and than we get sarcasm. The whole process pisses me off. I think I go 'visit' Jay for a while. WTF.
>>>
>> Lou, I think we need more people here with less vitriol, not the other way around, and yes we could do with less sarcasm. However, before we can get to that level, we need to get rid of certain members who post off-topic lies, misinformation, and hate, then attack anyone who disagrees with them as stupid, fat, ignorant, communist, fascist, ......etc. regardless of evidence presented showing their claims are incorrect. When discussion topics like the ones below are posted consistently, a little sarcasm which was _not_ directed at anyone personally is the least of our (admittedly first-world) problems here.
>>
>> 45% of Democrats want Concentration Camps for Unvaccinated
>> UK Government also says Tom Kunich Right, you Monkeys Wrong
>> New York Times says Tom Kunich right, RBT monkeys wrong
>> CDC Director Rochelle Walensky says Tom Kunich right, you monkeys wrong
>> Amateur Hour: Another Day, Another CDC COVID Reversal
>> Even the pretense of science is gone from global warming hysteria
>> If this is even half-true
>> More on Covid-19
>> Portrait of the netstalker Peter Howard, AKA funk master
>> An unquestionable disgrace of American "Justice"
>> Comedy at its finest
>>
>> That's just the past month. I unfortunately get sucked into it - mea culpa - but I appreciate the fact that you manage to stay above the fray.
>
> If you use a dedicated Newsgroup reader you can simply killfile those trolls and those who persist in responding to them.
>
> If you don't use a dedicated Newsgroup reader, you cab simply not click on any threads they start or hijack.
>
> Doing either saves me a lot of aggravation.

I'm thinking of a parallel situation: conversations during club bike
rides, and the associated lunch stops.

Most club members I know either are reasonably like-minded, or else
don't like face to face arguing. But I can remember a lunch stop on one
of my (pre-election) rides where three members of one political party
really dug in to a member of the opposing party, a guy they knew liked
to debate. The four of them had a grand time arguing while others
(myself included) tried to ignore them or change the subject. But that
was a very unusual occurrence.

Other remarks on the analogy: On club rides, topics shift endlessly.
That's a natural feature of human conversations. It's almost unheard of
for someone to complain when it happens. Those uninterested in the
latest shift in conversation tend to just change position in the group
and talk to someone else.

But admittedly, club rides are not proclaimed to be bicycle technical
discussions. We actually spend relatively little time talking bike tech
on rides. Most people just enjoy the ride and the company.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/22/2022 9:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 11:24 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:12:22 -0600, AMuzi
>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:45:13 -0600, AMuzi
>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/21/2022 6:54 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>> Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever
>>>>>>>>>>>> remember a starting
>>>>>>>>>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although
>>>>>>>>>>>> failure or malfunction
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience encompassed
>>>>>>>>>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with
>>>>>>>>>>>> electric starters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins
>>>>>>>>>>>> and you are galloping
>>>>>>>>>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And as I said that you with your claimed
>>>>>>>>>>> mechanical expertise seem to
>>>>>>>>>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not
>>>>>>>>>>> fail as I was
>>>>>>>>>>> talking about because they were made in a
>>>>>>>>>>> different manner. But go
>>>>>>>>>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I
>>>>>>>>>>> was working on cars
>>>>>>>>>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years
>>>>>>>>>>> old. That was how I
>>>>>>>>>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates.
>>>>>>>>>>> So continue to talk
>>>>>>>>>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>>>>>>>>>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the
>>>>>>>>>> starter motor to get
>>>>>>>>>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck
>>>>>>>>>> solenoid, not a motor
>>>>>>>>>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell
>>>>>>>>>> of the Coke bottle she
>>>>>>>>>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She
>>>>>>>>>> used it to hit the
>>>>>>>>>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new
>>>>>>>>> type cars with PM
>>>>>>>>> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter
>>>>>>>>> gear and not a
>>>>>>>>> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not -
>>>>>>>>> mechanical devices progress
>>>>>>>>> as rapidly as electronics.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How new?
>>>>>>>> Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my
>>>>>>>> 1965
>>>>>>>> Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y
>>>>>>>> color.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They have both.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and
>>>>>>> applies voltage to the
>>>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter
>>>>>>> gear� is driven by the starter
>>>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear
>>>>>>> forces it out on the
>>>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the
>>>>>>> flywheel to start the
>>>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the
>>>>>>> over speed of the engine,
>>>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back
>>>>>>> along the helical
>>>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old
>>>>>> as most of you). Bendix
>>>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so
>>>> called
>>>> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft
>>>> forced the
>>>> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>>>>
>>>> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the
>>>> starter pinion
>>>> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the
>>>> starter
>>>> motor.
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>>>>
>>>
>>> See also:
>>> https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison
>>>
>>
>> That is getting very much into semantics.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor
>>
>> It probably depends on who is saying what to who. For
>> example, I
>> worked for a year or so as an Interior Electrician at an
>> Air Base and
>> we used Solenoid to identify any electrically operated
>> switch and we
>> never used the term "contactor" for any purpose.
>
> Sounds to me like "contactor" is defined as a "relay" with
> unusually high current capacity. If I'm right, that would
> make "contactor" a subset of "relay."
>
> In the broadest sense, "solenoid" doesn't have to imply that
> the device controls electricity. In robotic workcells we
> often used solenoid controlled pneumatic valves. The
> solenoid (that is, the coil + metal actuator) shifted the
> valve spool to change the direction of air flow; as opposed
> to operating contacts to change electrical flow.
>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:22:06 -0500,
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
> > Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> >>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
> >>>> Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
> >>>> never reconsidered.
> >>>
> >> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so
> >> I don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being
> >> late!
> >>
> >> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I
> >> find the temperature interesting though to be honest not
> >> needed, same goes for my altitude.
> >>
> >> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know
> >> how much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely
> >> bothered by.
> >>
> >> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it
> >> is, is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish,
> >> and stop to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk
> >> etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my wife
> >> knowledge that I can be contacted.
> >
> > Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
> > text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
> > She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the
> > pavement when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I
> > could make it home on my own.
>
> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of
> mine. I started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden
> constantly through my childhood and teen years. Never once did
> I fear that I'd not make it home. That included (perhaps
> foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
>
> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never
> think "Gosh, what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or
> worse?"
>
> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer
> by almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more
> fearful.

Maybe you weren't implying I'm fearful (I'm not) or thought the
feature was important (I don't), but it sure comes off that way.

I have little interest in this feature, just thought it might be
of interest to others.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 1/22/2022 3:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:22:06 -0500,
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
>>> Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
>>>>>> Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
>>>>>> never reconsidered.
>>>>>
>>>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so
>>>> I don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being
>>>> late!
>>>>
>>>> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I
>>>> find the temperature interesting though to be honest not
>>>> needed, same goes for my altitude.
>>>>
>>>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know
>>>> how much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely
>>>> bothered by.
>>>>
>>>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it
>>>> is, is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish,
>>>> and stop to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk
>>>> etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my wife
>>>> knowledge that I can be contacted.
>>>
>>> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
>>> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
>>> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the
>>> pavement when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I
>>> could make it home on my own.
>>
>> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of
>> mine. I started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden
>> constantly through my childhood and teen years. Never once did
>> I fear that I'd not make it home. That included (perhaps
>> foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
>>
>> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
>> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never
>> think "Gosh, what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or
>> worse?"
>>
>> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer
>> by almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more
>> fearful.
>
> Maybe you weren't implying I'm fearful (I'm not) or thought the
> feature was important (I don't), but it sure comes off that way.
>
> I have little interest in this feature, just thought it might be
> of interest to others.

No, I wasn't implying that about you. I'm commenting on a general trend
in society that I've mentioned often before: "Safety inflation."

It's quite pervasive. What's perfectly accepted as adequately "safe" one
year seems to frequently become, well, advised against ten years later.
Then labeled as reckless maybe ten years after that. In some cases,
declared illegal maybe ten years later.

Examples abound.

I hope that automatic crash detection and reporting doesn't become de
rigueur for cycling in the future.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
>> Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped
>>>>> it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never
>>>>> reconsidered.
>>>>
>>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I
>>> don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>>>
>>> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I find
>>> the temperature interesting though to be honest not needed,
>>> same goes for my altitude.
>>>
>>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how
>>> much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely bothered by.
>>>
>>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is,
>>> is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop
>>> to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk etc. plus
>>> having had life changing injury gives my wife knowledge that I
>>> can be contacted.
>>
>> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
>> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
>> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the pavement
>> when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I could make it
>> home on my own.
>
> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of mine. I
> started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden constantly
> through my childhood and teen years. Never once did I fear that I'd not
> make it home. That included (perhaps foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
>
> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never think "Gosh,
> what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or worse?"
>
> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer by
> almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more fearful.
>
>
I’ve had one, hence my wife worries this said I don’t use the crash
detection, or set it up so she can track as well it would make her more
anxious but knowing that I can be contacted seems to be enough.

For the record it was not a high speed crash but slow speed tumble, folks
worry about the extreme but it’s almost always the mundane!

Roger Merriman.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:48:10 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 1:43 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
>>>>>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YMMV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
>>>>>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
>>>>>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
>>>>>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
>>>>>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
>>>>> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
>>>>
>>>> ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
>>>> - Henry David Thoreau
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
>>> I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>>>
>>> I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature
>>> interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.
>>>
>>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more
>>> there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by.
>>>
>>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
>>> useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or
>>> ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my
>>> wife knowledge that I can be contacted.
>>>
>>> And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your
>>> a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods
>>> and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!
>>>
>>> That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
>>> performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
>>> display.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>> I for one have no problem with any of that. If you find the
>> data interesting it's never been more accurate, more richly
>> presented nor more affordable.
>
> Distance and time seem to be well presented and accurate but power
> readings from Strava fall not even close to a regular power meter. All
> that means is the bragging rights people have been claiming are pretty poor.
>
The estimated ones tend to be junk as is calories. But realistically anyone
interested would buy/rent a power meter some of the folks I know who are
into racing do. At which point Strava and other software will display it,
Strava will show if it’s estimated or recorded.

Roger Merriman

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:22:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
> > Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> >>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped
> >>>> it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never
> >>>> reconsidered.
> >>>
> >> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I
> >> don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
> >>
> >> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I find
> >> the temperature interesting though to be honest not needed,
> >> same goes for my altitude.
> >>
> >> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how
> >> much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely bothered by.
> >>
> >> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is,
> >> is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop
> >> to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk etc. plus
> >> having had life changing injury gives my wife knowledge that I
> >> can be contacted.
> >
> > Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
> > text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
> > She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the pavement
> > when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I could make it
> > home on my own.
> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of mine. I
> started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden constantly
> through my childhood and teen years. Never once did I fear that I'd not
> make it home. That included (perhaps foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
>
> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never think "Gosh,
> what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or worse?"
>
> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer by
> almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more fearful.

A local mechanic had a closed shop for an entire year. I just saw him yesterday and he was wearing an oxygen tank and told me that he contracted covid-19 in 2020. That he had a totally collapsed lung and now had to wear this tank to get sufficient O2 because of the damage to his lungs. I didn't say anything to him since that sort of damage is almost entirely from pneumonia.. But he had been told that he just missed dying from covid-19 and who was he to question hospitals where he was on a ventilator?

As I showed, the present count of excess deaths from undefined respiratory diseases (and covid-19 is undefined because there are a large group of respiratory diseases such as snorting cocaine that fit into this category is only 6,633 as of a minute ago. This is since February 1, 2020 until present. Fauci and the CDC are willing to lie through their teeth and in front of Congressional meetings UNDER OATH which is a criminal offense, that the Democrat will not prosecute.

And you note correctly that we are safer than ever. Perhaps you should think more about what the Democrats have been purposely doing to this country?

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:48:28 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
> >>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
> >>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
> >>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
> >>>>> madly toward the finish line.
> >>>>
> >>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
> >>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
> >>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
> >>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
> >>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
> >>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
> >>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
> >>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
> >>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
> >>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
> >>>
> >>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
> >>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
> >>> starter when it wouldn't start.
> >>>
> >>> She wasn't an engineer either.
> >>
> >> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
> >> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
> >> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
> >> as rapidly as electronics.
> >>
> >
> > How new?
> > Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
> > Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
> >
> > https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
> >
> They have both.
>
> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.

Exactly, from memory they stopped using electromagnetic starters and solenoids in the late 80's. This is when gas mileage started becoming important with the rapid growth of the price of gasoline. Suddenly the weight and frontal area and aerodynamic drag started becoming important. Before that those monster cars weighed between 8,000 and 10,000 lbs. Today a large size car like my Ford Taurus weighs 6,000 lbs and the aerodynamic drag is so low that on my trip to Arizona and back I averaged as much as 38 mpg. My car is 2007.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:03:06 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 6:20 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:22:10 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> > <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure
> >>
> >> I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15 years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974 buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight, and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.
> >>
> >>> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car.
> >>
> >> That's usually a corrosion issue.
> >>
> >>> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.
> >>
> >> Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.
> >>
> >>> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
> >>
> >> Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters every time, you were cheated.
> >
> > Well, yes corrosion is progressive and just as dementia is
> > progressive, as Tommy so aptly demonstrates.
> >
> I'd have a look at the ground contacts for both battery and
> starter before buying a new one. YMMV.

Those old electromagnetic starters and solenoids were pretty much bullet proof. There were two problems that would give trouble - battery connections were very important along with battery charge which old style lead-acid batteries would rather rapidly lose. And a problem peculiar to solenoids was that they could break teeth off of the flywheel which doesn't happen with the spring and gear - these thread into the flywheel safely.

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:10:17 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 6:33 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:10:49 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
> >>>> earth magnetic field.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> >>>
> >>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
> >>
> >> https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
> >>
> >> Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
> >> hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
> >> Magnetism Change?
> >
> > If I remember correctly the magnetic deviation, or "magnetic
> > declination", as it is sometimes referred to, varies from place to
> > place. True north, measured by a magnetic compass, ranges from about 5
> > degrees west in S. Florida to 30 degrees west on the south-eastern tip
> > of Africa to 26 degrees east on the southern tip of New Zealand.
> >
> > So there really is a "Global Magnetism Change" If "change" can
> > indicant "difference" (:-)
> >
> Yes there's a declination correction from 'true north' as
> every Boy Scout is taught in order to use compass and maps:
> http://canebrake13.com/media/img/mapCompass_declination.png
>
> Add in the movement of the poles' locations:
> https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ec926ed000ff9a5e30fc12606dca6852-c
>
> Add in theories that the poles periodically shift polarity:
> https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html
>
> and you have a great tool for fearmongers.

Pole reversal is ONLY a theory simply because of the pole wanderings of a liquid Earth core. It has never reversed in historic memory.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/22/2022 3:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:22:06 -0500,
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
>>>> Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
>>>>>>> Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
>>>>>>> never reconsidered.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so
>>>>> I don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being
>>>>> late!
>>>>>
>>>>> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I
>>>>> find the temperature interesting though to be honest not
>>>>> needed, same goes for my altitude.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know
>>>>> how much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely
>>>>> bothered by.
>>>>>
>>>>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it
>>>>> is, is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish,
>>>>> and stop to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk
>>>>> etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my wife
>>>>> knowledge that I can be contacted.
>>>>
>>>> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
>>>> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
>>>> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the
>>>> pavement when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I
>>>> could make it home on my own.
>>>
>>> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of
>>> mine. I started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden
>>> constantly through my childhood and teen years. Never once did
>>> I fear that I'd not make it home. That included (perhaps
>>> foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
>>>
>>> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
>>> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never
>>> think "Gosh, what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or
>>> worse?"
>>>
>>> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer
>>> by almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more
>>> fearful.
>>
>> Maybe you weren't implying I'm fearful (I'm not) or thought the
>> feature was important (I don't), but it sure comes off that way.
>>
>> I have little interest in this feature, just thought it might be
>> of interest to others.
>
> No, I wasn't implying that about you. I'm commenting on a general trend
> in society that I've mentioned often before: "Safety inflation."
>
> It's quite pervasive. What's perfectly accepted as adequately "safe" one
> year seems to frequently become, well, advised against ten years later.
> Then labeled as reckless maybe ten years after that. In some cases,
> declared illegal maybe ten years later.
>
> Examples abound.
>
> I hope that automatic crash detection and reporting doesn't become de
> rigueur for cycling in the future.
>
>
It’s a feature in most head units now plus stuff like Apple Watch, though
would need setting up, ie clearly doesn’t know who my wife is etc.

I haven’t set it up as I’m not sure it adds much for my use case!

Roger Merriman.

On 1/22/2022 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Exactly, from memory they stopped using electromagnetic starters and solenoids in the late 80's.

Tom, you've got to stop relying on your "memory."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 3:54:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/22/2022 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >
> > Exactly, from memory they stopped using electromagnetic starters and solenoids in the late 80's.
> Tom, you've got to stop relying on your "memory."

OK Frank, since you know all there is to know about starters on cars, when did they stop using solenoid and contactor operated starters and change almost entirely over to PM DC starter motors? You imply that you have a better memory that I do so it shouldn't be any problem for you. And while you're at it explain why I've had three failures, the Triple A always know what do do and told me that the entire starter had to be replaced which the mechanic backed up and you and the group here with such excellent memories, and NO mechanical backgrounds, tell me could not be the failure mode?

Why don't you tell me that people who are perfectly happy living a middle class lifestyle and income should be given more money from your communist dream of stealing from the rich?

Let's face it Frank, you are garbage and I feel very sorry for anyone that had to take your classes. It was probably a complete waste of money and time.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:24:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/22/2022 3:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:22:06 -0500,
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
>>>> Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
>>>>>>> Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
>>>>>>> never reconsidered.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so
>>>>> I don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being
>>>>> late!
>>>>>
>>>>> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I
>>>>> find the temperature interesting though to be honest not
>>>>> needed, same goes for my altitude.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know
>>>>> how much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely
>>>>> bothered by.
>>>>>
>>>>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it
>>>>> is, is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish,
>>>>> and stop to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk
>>>>> etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my wife
>>>>> knowledge that I can be contacted.
>>>>
>>>> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
>>>> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
>>>> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the
>>>> pavement when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I
>>>> could make it home on my own.
>>>
>>> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of
>>> mine. I started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden
>>> constantly through my childhood and teen years. Never once did
>>> I fear that I'd not make it home. That included (perhaps
>>> foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
>>>
>>> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
>>> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never
>>> think "Gosh, what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or
>>> worse?"
>>>
>>> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer
>>> by almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more
>>> fearful.
>>
>> Maybe you weren't implying I'm fearful (I'm not) or thought the
>> feature was important (I don't), but it sure comes off that way.
>>
>> I have little interest in this feature, just thought it might be
>> of interest to others.
>
>No, I wasn't implying that about you. I'm commenting on a general trend
>in society that I've mentioned often before: "Safety inflation."
>
>It's quite pervasive. What's perfectly accepted as adequately "safe" one
>year seems to frequently become, well, advised against ten years later.
>Then labeled as reckless maybe ten years after that. In some cases,
>declared illegal maybe ten years later.
>
>Examples abound.
>
>I hope that automatic crash detection and reporting doesn't become de
>rigueur for cycling in the future.

Somewhere I read that the slide and swing sets that used to be common
in school yards all over the country are now not seen as frequently
because "little Johnny" might get hurt and kids walking to school...
Oh MY Goodness! We can't have that it is too dangerious.

Yet, when I was in grade school "swing sets" were common and we walked
to school, in fact there was a school ordinance that you couldn't ride
or drive to school (no parking space) and, I don't remember anyone
being injured.

Or my pet complaint, the sign on my ladder that "Improper use may
result in injury or death".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:21:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:24:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 1/22/2022 3:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> >> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:22:06 -0500,
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 1/21/2022 5:03 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
> >>>> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>>>>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>>>>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
> >>>>>>> Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
> >>>>>>> never reconsidered.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so
> >>>>> I don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being
> >>>>> late!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I
> >>>>> find the temperature interesting though to be honest not
> >>>>> needed, same goes for my altitude.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know
> >>>>> how much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely
> >>>>> bothered by.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it
> >>>>> is, is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish,
> >>>>> and stop to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk
> >>>>> etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my wife
> >>>>> knowledge that I can be contacted.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
> >>>> text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
> >>>> She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the
> >>>> pavement when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I
> >>>> could make it home on my own.
> >>>
> >>> Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of
> >>> mine. I started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden
> >>> constantly through my childhood and teen years. Never once did
> >>> I fear that I'd not make it home. That included (perhaps
> >>> foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.
> >>>
> >>> Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
> >>> regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never
> >>> think "Gosh, what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or
> >>> worse?"
> >>>
> >>> One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer
> >>> by almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more
> >>> fearful.
> >>
> >> Maybe you weren't implying I'm fearful (I'm not) or thought the
> >> feature was important (I don't), but it sure comes off that way.
> >>
> >> I have little interest in this feature, just thought it might be
> >> of interest to others.
> >
> >No, I wasn't implying that about you. I'm commenting on a general trend
> >in society that I've mentioned often before: "Safety inflation."
> >
> >It's quite pervasive. What's perfectly accepted as adequately "safe" one
> >year seems to frequently become, well, advised against ten years later.
> >Then labeled as reckless maybe ten years after that. In some cases,
> >declared illegal maybe ten years later.
> >
> >Examples abound.
> >
> >I hope that automatic crash detection and reporting doesn't become de
> >rigueur for cycling in the future.
> Somewhere I read that the slide and swing sets that used to be common
> in school yards all over the country are now not seen as frequently
> because "little Johnny" might get hurt and kids walking to school...
> Oh MY Goodness! We can't have that it is too dangerious.
>
> Yet, when I was in grade school "swing sets" were common and we walked
> to school, in fact there was a school ordinance that you couldn't ride
> or drive to school (no parking space) and, I don't remember anyone
> being injured.
>
> Or my pet complaint, the sign on my ladder that "Improper use may
> result in injury or death".

Fat Johnny, clearly you haven't been back to the US in a long time. Today on my ride I had three cars drive directly through red lights and stop signs without so much as slowing while I had right of way. There is a cross walk across the main street (that only leads into a housing district) that kids would have to cross going to school. This is the street in which I patiently waited my turn and as I got to the going straight lane a jackass woman touched her brakes and then continued through the intersection without stopping even though I was directly in front of her. Wearing bright red, white and yellow. And the car in the left turn lane right next to her didn't move an inch.

As for swings, they were dangerous and that is why they disappeared. Children would continue going back and forth until they were up to 90 degrees and the then they would tip over and fall inwards and drop children on the back of their skull and there were many deaths from that. Since there was no way of making those swings both cheap and safe, they eliminated them.

The problem with you isn't that you are stupid, its just that you know so much that isn't so.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:40:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:48:28 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>> >>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>> >>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>> >>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>> >>>>> madly toward the finish line.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
>> >>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
>> >>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
>> >>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
>> >>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
>> >>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
>> >>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
>> >>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
>> >>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
>> >>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
>> >>>
>> >>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
>> >>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
>> >>> starter when it wouldn't start.
>> >>>
>> >>> She wasn't an engineer either.
>> >>
>> >> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
>> >> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
>> >> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
>> >> as rapidly as electronics.
>> >>
>> >
>> > How new?
>> > Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
>> > Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
>> >
>> > https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
>> >
>> They have both.
>>
>> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>
>Exactly, from memory they stopped using electromagnetic starters and solenoids in the late 80's. This is when gas mileage started becoming important with the rapid growth of the price of gasoline. Suddenly the weight and frontal area and aerodynamic drag started becoming important. Before that those monster cars weighed between 8,000 and 10,000 lbs. Today a large size car like my Ford Taurus weighs 6,000 lbs and the aerodynamic drag is so low that on my trip to Arizona and back I averaged as much as 38 mpg. My car is 2007.

"those monster cars weighed between 8,000 and 10,000 lbs" ???

Really?

https://www.carsguide.com.au/ford/ltd/car-dimensions/1975
Weight - 1760 kg... or 3880.1358 lb
https://tinyurl.com/3nh4tnrv
1970 Ford Fairlane/Torino - 3,116–3,774 lb
https://www.conceptcarz.com/s16345/ford-galaxie.aspx
weight - 3730 lbs
https://www.conceptcarz.com/s11870/ford-custom-deluxe.aspx
weight - 3060 lbs
https://www.conceptcarz.com/s7517/ford-deluxe.aspx
weight - 2970 lbs

Gee Tommy, wrong again..
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 16:14:55 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 3:54:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/22/2022 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Exactly, from memory they stopped using electromagnetic starters and solenoids in the late 80's.
>> Tom, you've got to stop relying on your "memory."
>
>OK Frank, since you know all there is to know about starters on cars, when did they stop using solenoid and contactor operated starters and change almost entirely over to PM DC starter motors? You imply that you have a better memory that I do so it shouldn't be any problem for you. And while you're at it explain why I've had three failures, the Triple A always know what do do and told me that the entire starter had to be replaced which the mechanic backed up and you and the group here with such excellent memories, and NO mechanical backgrounds, tell me could not be the failure mode?
>
>Why don't you tell me that people who are perfectly happy living a middle class lifestyle and income should be given more money from your communist dream of stealing from the rich?
>
>Let's face it Frank, you are garbage and I feel very sorry for anyone that had to take your classes. It was probably a complete waste of money and time.

Well, Tommy, I've worked on autos dating back to about least 1931
(before I was born) and they have all had DC Starter motors.

Can you elaborate and tell us when autos used non-DC motors for
starters?

Or would you prefer to admit that you are a fool and don't know what
you are talking about?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:48:01 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:40:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:48:28 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
> >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> > On 1/21/2022 2:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >>> On 1/21/2022 11:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>>> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
> >> >>>>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
> >> >>>>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
> >> >>>>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
> >> >>>>> madly toward the finish line.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to
> >> >>>> not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was
> >> >>>> talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go
> >> >>>> right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars
> >> >>>> with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I
> >> >>>> learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk
> >> >>>> about it as if you understood the problem.
> >> >>> Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
> >> >>> yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
> >> >>> problem, and it's been known for many decades.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
> >> >>> kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
> >> >>> starter when it wouldn't start.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> She wasn't an engineer either.
> >> >>
> >> >> Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM
> >> >> starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a
> >> >> solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress
> >> >> as rapidly as electronics.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > How new?
> >> > Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
> >> > Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.
> >> >
> >> > https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/
> >> >
> >> They have both.
> >>
> >> The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
> >> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
> >> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
> >> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
> >> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
> >> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
> >> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
> >
> >Exactly, from memory they stopped using electromagnetic starters and solenoids in the late 80's. This is when gas mileage started becoming important with the rapid growth of the price of gasoline. Suddenly the weight and frontal area and aerodynamic drag started becoming important. Before that those monster cars weighed between 8,000 and 10,000 lbs. Today a large size car like my Ford Taurus weighs 6,000 lbs and the aerodynamic drag is so low that on my trip to Arizona and back I averaged as much as 38 mpg. My car is 2007.
> "those monster cars weighed between 8,000 and 10,000 lbs" ???
>
> Really?
>
> https://www.carsguide.com.au/ford/ltd/car-dimensions/1975
> Weight - 1760 kg... or 3880.1358 lb
> https://tinyurl.com/3nh4tnrv
> 1970 Ford Fairlane/Torino - 3,116–3,774 lb
> https://www.conceptcarz.com/s16345/ford-galaxie.aspx
> weight - 3730 lbs
> https://www.conceptcarz.com/s11870/ford-custom-deluxe.aspx
> weight - 3060 lbs
> https://www.conceptcarz.com/s7517/ford-deluxe.aspx
> weight - 2970 lbs
>
> Gee Tommy, wrong again..

John, I think that you should give us more examples of all steel cars with steel wheels and hard steel bumpers that weigh the same as a 2022 Nissan GT.. It makes you and your use of Google look ever so intelligent.