On 3/23/2022 11:35 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:21:01 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 17:58:48 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:01:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
>>>>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
>>>>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
>>>>>>>> stopped at a red light.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
>>>>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
>>>>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
>>>>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
>>>>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
>>>>>>>> even a flip phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
>>>>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
>>>>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
>>>>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
>>>>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
>>>>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
>>>>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
>>>>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
>>>>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
>>>>>>> car reading the paper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
>>>>>>> remember any of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
>>>>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
>>>>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
>>>>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
>>>>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
>>>>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
>>>>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
>>>>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
>>>>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
>>>>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
>>>>>> Fashionable! But... why?
>>>>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>>>>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>>>>> necessity?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> Does one NEED a multi speed bicycle? Isn't one gear enough? Does one NEED STI/Ergo shifters? Isn't a lever on the end of the handlebars or stem or downtube enough? Does one NEED a starter inside their car? Isn't a crank at the front of the car enough? Does one NEED an air conditioner? Can't you just roll the windows down? Does one NEED a heater? Just wear boots and coats inside the car in winter. Does one NEED headlights? Just drive when the sun is up.
>>>>
>>>> Lot of luxuries. Very few necessities.
>>> Well, re bicycles. When I was a young lad all bicycles were single
>>> speed, coaster brake, bicycles
>>
>> Hmmmmmm....No. Now I will allow you to say all of the bicycles you were aware of in your town, were single speed coaster brake bikes. But way back in the 1920s, the Tour riders used flip flop hubs to get multiple gears and used caliper brakes. Andy or another historian will have to chime in about when internal hub gear bikes were invented and when the first multi cog rear derailleur bikes were invented. Guessing back in the 1930s or so. Are you over a century old John? You did say "When I was a young lad".
>>
>> I have this poster.
>> https://www.fulcrumgallery.com/pla.aspx?sku=P367005&source=GoogleAdWords&ad=P367005_GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwiuuRBhBvEiwAFXKaNBGpMX9czcTqi5pDSFV5hUJyuub1eyjJiVzdWigFkuf_e2gQedSw6xoCWMkQAvD_BwE
>>
>
> Well, I'm not sure that a flip-flop rear wheel is really a multi
> speed. Or does replacing your auto's driven wheel tires with larger or
> smaller constitute a multi speed auto?
>
> As for actual multi speed bikes. I read that the first bike which
> allowed "gear changing" while underway was the Cambio Corsa which was
> a two speed bike that could be shifted with rods at the rear. Dated to
> 1946 I think.
>
> As for your mile long reference, above, you might want to try
> https://tinyurl.com/app
>

A flip flop wheel is a multi speed bicycle[1].

Before the Cambio Corsa or the Vittoria FD system, Tullio
Campagnolo's first patent was the cam lever hub quick
release which made flipping the wheel faster[1].

[1] Maybe not as fast as Campagnolo EPS 2x12, but two speeds
nonetheless.

[2] in the instant case, at he top of Croce d'Aune, Mr
Campagnolo could not manage wingnuts in his frozen fingers:

https://www.glistatigenerali.com/ciclismo_storia-cultura/tullio-campagnolo-e-la-leggenda-del-croce-daune/

Inglese:
https://pelotonmagazine.com/features/the-daunting-croce-daune/

Useful both for flat tires and (sorta) rapid gear change.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:10:42 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
> >>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
> >>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
> >>>> stopped at a red light.
> >>>>
> >>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
> >>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
> >>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
> >>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
> >>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
> >>>> even a flip phone.
> >>>>
> >>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
> >>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
> >>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
> >>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
> >>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
> >>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
> >>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
> >>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
> >>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
> >>> car reading the paper.
> >>>
> >>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
> >>> remember any of it.
> >>
> >> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
> >> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
> >> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
> >> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
> >> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
> >>
> >> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design..
> >> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
> >> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
> >> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
> >> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
> >>
> >> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
> >> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
> >> Fashionable! But... why?
> >
> > But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
> > applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
> > necessity?
> Very little is needed to be honest, but it’s one of the few toys on the old
> Volvo, assuming it’s a reasonably clear motorway, it’s handy to just hold
> speed which largely is what other cars are doing.
>
> Helps that is an auto probably as well, so it will change gear if needed.
>
> It’s most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
> understand the concept…

Cruise control is very good at holding the speed limit as every other vehicle on the road including heavy trucks are going a minimum of 10 mph above the speed limit. 80 mph is so common that you might as well say that is the limit and 90 mph is very common. Driving in the middle of three lanes at the speed limit seems to infuriate people who want to drive in the slow lane at 100 mph and swerve back and forth around heavy trucks going 70 mph in the 55 mph state limit.

As I said, if you want to be able to arrest people that are driving perfectly OK with blood alcohol levels that do not in the least disable their driving ability, driving at speeds 25 mph above the limit and swerving from lane to lane should be treated as equally dangerous and I ONLY see highway patrol pulling people over for obviously dangerous driving during commute. In 500 miles of driving up to and back from Reno I didn't see ONE car pulled over for driving over the limit. I saw one cop and he was at a wreck caused by these practices.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:10:42 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
>>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
>>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
>>>>>> stopped at a red light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
>>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
>>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
>>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
>>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
>>>>>> even a flip phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
>>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
>>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
>>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
>>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
>>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
>>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
>>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
>>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
>>>>> car reading the paper.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
>>>>> remember any of it.
>>>>
>>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
>>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
>>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
>>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
>>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
>>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
>>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
>>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
>>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
>>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
>>>> Fashionable! But... why?
>>>
>>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>>> necessity?
>> Very little is needed to be honest, but it’s one of the few toys on the old
>> Volvo, assuming it’s a reasonably clear motorway, it’s handy to just hold
>> speed which largely is what other cars are doing.
>>
>> Helps that is an auto probably as well, so it will change gear if needed.
>>
>> It’s most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
>> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
>> understand the concept…
>
> Cruise control is very good at holding the speed limit as every other
> vehicle on the road including heavy trucks are going a minimum of 10 mph
> above the speed limit. 80 mph is so common that you might as well say
> that is the limit and 90 mph is very common. Driving in the middle of
> three lanes at the speed limit seems to infuriate people who want to
> drive in the slow lane at 100 mph and swerve back and forth around heavy
> trucks going 70 mph in the 55 mph state limit.
>
> As I said, if you want to be able to arrest people that are driving
> perfectly OK with blood alcohol levels that do not in the least disable
> their driving ability, driving at speeds 25 mph above the limit and
> swerving from lane to lane should be treated as equally dangerous and I
> ONLY see highway patrol pulling people over for obviously dangerous
> driving during commute. In 500 miles of driving up to and back from Reno
> I didn't see ONE car pulled over for driving over the limit. I saw one
> cop and he was at a wreck caused by these practices.
>
Average speed limits seems to calm stuff down, ie stops folks driving way
over and then stomping on the brakes causing stop start traffic.

Which is why I’m generally in favour of them at least for urban/suburban
dual carriageway’s or motorways.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:06:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:10:42 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
> >>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
> >>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
> >>>>>> stopped at a red light.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
> >>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
> >>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
> >>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
> >>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
> >>>>>> even a flip phone.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
> >>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
> >>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
> >>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
> >>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
> >>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
> >>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
> >>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
> >>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
> >>>>> car reading the paper.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
> >>>>> remember any of it.
> >>>>
> >>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
> >>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
> >>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
> >>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
> >>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
> >>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
> >>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
> >>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
> >>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
> >>>>
> >>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
> >>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
> >>>> Fashionable! But... why?
> >>>
> >>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
> >>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
> >>> necessity?
> >> Very little is needed to be honest, but it’s one of the few toys on the old
> >> Volvo, assuming it’s a reasonably clear motorway, it’s handy to just hold
> >> speed which largely is what other cars are doing.
> >>
> >> Helps that is an auto probably as well, so it will change gear if needed.
> >>
> >> It’s most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
> >> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
> >> understand the concept…
> >
> > Cruise control is very good at holding the speed limit as every other
> > vehicle on the road including heavy trucks are going a minimum of 10 mph
> > above the speed limit. 80 mph is so common that you might as well say
> > that is the limit and 90 mph is very common. Driving in the middle of
> > three lanes at the speed limit seems to infuriate people who want to
> > drive in the slow lane at 100 mph and swerve back and forth around heavy
> > trucks going 70 mph in the 55 mph state limit.
> >
> > As I said, if you want to be able to arrest people that are driving
> > perfectly OK with blood alcohol levels that do not in the least disable
> > their driving ability, driving at speeds 25 mph above the limit and
> > swerving from lane to lane should be treated as equally dangerous and I
> > ONLY see highway patrol pulling people over for obviously dangerous
> > driving during commute. In 500 miles of driving up to and back from Reno
> > I didn't see ONE car pulled over for driving over the limit. I saw one
> > cop and he was at a wreck caused by these practices.
> >
> Average speed limits seems to calm stuff down, ie stops folks driving way
> over and then stomping on the brakes causing stop start traffic.
>
> Which is why I’m generally in favour of them at least for urban/suburban
> dual carriageway’s or motorways.

If they want to allow people to drive at 90 mph fine. Set the limit at 90 mph. Don't set it at 65 and allow everyone to break the law. In Arizona the freeway speed limit is 80 and because that is so close to the reaction time of people they don't exceed it very often. Of course that speed limit is also for triple semi trucks and trailers.

I do not like fake laws designed to allow those you like to get away with something and those you don't get fined.

On 3/23/2022 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 00:10:40 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> [Cruise control is] most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
>> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
>> understand the concept…
>>
>> Roger Merriman.
>
> I think that you are rationalizing. Or at least I've been driving for
> 70 years or so and never had a problem manually controlling the
> vehicle speed.

No disrespect, but: Based on my observation of other drivers, it may be
more accurate to say you don't _think_ you had a problem manually
controlling the vehicle speed. Again, many people's speed varies
markedly without their realizing it.

But aside from that: Cruise control was the very first extra-cost option
I ever got with a new car. Especially on long drives, it's a great help.
For me, it reduces driving fatigue quite a lot.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/24/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Cruise control is very good at holding the speed limit as every other vehicle on the road including heavy trucks are going a minimum of 10 mph above the speed limit. 80 mph is so common that you might as well say that is the limit and 90 mph is very common. Driving in the middle of three lanes at the speed limit seems to infuriate people who want to drive in the slow lane at 100 mph and swerve back and forth around heavy trucks going 70 mph in the 55 mph state limit.

Why would you want to drive in the middle lane of three lanes if you're
going slower than other traffic?

"Keep right except to pass" should be the default.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/23/2022 8:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:12:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2022 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
>>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
>>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
>>>>>> stopped at a red light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
>>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
>>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
>>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
>>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
>>>>>> even a flip phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
>>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
>>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
>>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
>>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
>>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
>>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
>>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
>>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
>>>>> car reading the paper.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
>>>>> remember any of it.
>>>>
>>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
>>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
>>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
>>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
>>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
>>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
>>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
>>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
>>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
>>>>
>>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
>>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
>>>> Fashionable! But... why?
>>>
>>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>>> necessity?
>>
>> I'd say it's a luxury for most people. But there are some people who
>> should be forced to use it.
>>
>> I have two friends with whom I hate to ride. On hour long freeway rides,
>> their speed fluctuates from five below to five above the speed limit,
>> totally at random. They seem to lack the ability to keep speed constant.
>> I actually ask them to engage speed control.
>>
>> That behavior by others drives me crazy when I'm driving, too. I
>> frequently joke to my wife "I'm so inspirational!" What I mean is this:
>> My cruise control is set for the limit. I come up on someone driving
>> maybe five miles per hour slower, so I signal and change to the left
>> (passing) lane. As I come up next to them, they suddenly accelerate. I
>> think what happens is my presence reminds them they can go faster, so
>> they do...
>>
>> ... until they lose attention and drop back down again. Many times that
>> happens exactly as they're passing a slower truck, so I'm stuck behind
>> them until they wake up again.
>
> I think that cruse control should be banned. If you are going to drive
> a big heavy 2 ton vehicle at a velocity of, say 5,000 feet/minute,
> then I truly believe that the operator should be paying attention to
> what is happening.

I'd say cruise control allows you to look at things besides your
speedometer, and pay attention to things that might really matter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/24/2022 12:35 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmmmmmm....No. Now I will allow you to say all of the bicycles you were aware of in your town, were single speed coaster brake bikes. But way back in the 1920s, the Tour riders used flip flop hubs to get multiple gears and used caliper brakes. Andy or another historian will have to chime in about when internal hub gear bikes were invented and when the first multi cog rear derailleur bikes were invented. Guessing back in the 1930s or so. Are you over a century old John? You did say "When I was a young lad".
>>
>> I have this poster.
>> https://www.fulcrumgallery.com/pla.aspx?sku=P367005&source=GoogleAdWords&ad=P367005_GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwiuuRBhBvEiwAFXKaNBGpMX9czcTqi5pDSFV5hUJyuub1eyjJiVzdWigFkuf_e2gQedSw6xoCWMkQAvD_BwE
>>
>
> Well, I'm not sure that a flip-flop rear wheel is really a multi
> speed. Or does replacing your auto's driven wheel tires with larger or
> smaller constitute a multi speed auto?
>
> As for actual multi speed bikes. I read that the first bike which
> allowed "gear changing" while underway was the Cambio Corsa which was
> a two speed bike that could be shifted with rods at the rear. Dated to
> 1946 I think.

Gentlemen, please!

http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:53:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/23/2022 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 00:10:40 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Cruise control is] most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
>>> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
>>> understand the concept…
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman.
>>
>> I think that you are rationalizing. Or at least I've been driving for
>> 70 years or so and never had a problem manually controlling the
>> vehicle speed.
>
>No disrespect, but: Based on my observation of other drivers, it may be
>more accurate to say you don't _think_ you had a problem manually
>controlling the vehicle speed. Again, many people's speed varies
>markedly without their realizing it.
>

Well yes, I suppose that my speed does vary quite a bit. I slow down
for sharp curves, I decelerate as I approach stop signs, and even slow
down if someone in front of me slows down. Why, I even slow down when
I see people crossing the road.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:59:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/23/2022 8:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:12:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/23/2022 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
>>>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
>>>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
>>>>>>> stopped at a red light.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
>>>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
>>>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
>>>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
>>>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
>>>>>>> even a flip phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
>>>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
>>>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
>>>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
>>>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
>>>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
>>>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
>>>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
>>>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
>>>>>> car reading the paper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
>>>>>> remember any of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
>>>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
>>>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
>>>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
>>>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
>>>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
>>>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
>>>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
>>>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
>>>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
>>>>> Fashionable! But... why?
>>>>
>>>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>>>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>>>> necessity?
>>>
>>> I'd say it's a luxury for most people. But there are some people who
>>> should be forced to use it.
>>>
>>> I have two friends with whom I hate to ride. On hour long freeway rides,
>>> their speed fluctuates from five below to five above the speed limit,
>>> totally at random. They seem to lack the ability to keep speed constant.
>>> I actually ask them to engage speed control.
>>>
>>> That behavior by others drives me crazy when I'm driving, too. I
>>> frequently joke to my wife "I'm so inspirational!" What I mean is this:
>>> My cruise control is set for the limit. I come up on someone driving
>>> maybe five miles per hour slower, so I signal and change to the left
>>> (passing) lane. As I come up next to them, they suddenly accelerate. I
>>> think what happens is my presence reminds them they can go faster, so
>>> they do...
>>>
>>> ... until they lose attention and drop back down again. Many times that
>>> happens exactly as they're passing a slower truck, so I'm stuck behind
>>> them until they wake up again.
>>
>> I think that cruse control should be banned. If you are going to drive
>> a big heavy 2 ton vehicle at a velocity of, say 5,000 feet/minute,
>> then I truly believe that the operator should be paying attention to
>> what is happening.
>
>I'd say cruise control allows you to look at things besides your
>speedometer, and pay attention to things that might really matter.

Then, logically, one would assume that you have such a device on your
motorcycle and bicycle?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:58:46 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:53:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/23/2022 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 00:10:40 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> >> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [Cruise control is] most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
> >>> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
> >>> understand the concept…
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman.
> >>
> >> I think that you are rationalizing. Or at least I've been driving for
> >> 70 years or so and never had a problem manually controlling the
> >> vehicle speed.
> >
> >No disrespect, but: Based on my observation of other drivers, it may be
> >more accurate to say you don't _think_ you had a problem manually
> >controlling the vehicle speed. Again, many people's speed varies
> >markedly without their realizing it.
> >
> Well yes, I suppose that my speed does vary quite a bit. I slow down
> for sharp curves, I decelerate as I approach stop signs, and even slow
> down if someone in front of me slows down. Why, I even slow down when
> I see people crossing the road.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

I suspect if we had one of those Nazi mind control laser beam GPS Bill Gates bugs instilled in your car, we would clearly see your speed does vary up and down 2-3-4-5-6-7 miler per hour frequently as you drive on an empty road. With no cruise control. Human beings do not have perfect muscle control over their bodies at all times. Your feet twitch. Your fingers shake. Your eyes blink. You move around. You do NOT sit perfectly still while driving and keep your foot at the EXACT same position at ALL times. Thus keeping an exact pressure on the gas pedal.

When I ride a bike on the flat. I cannot hold my speed at the exact same speed at all times. I vary my speed unconsciously up and down 1 mph. My speed is frequently going up and down a few tenths of a mph. Plus or minus 1 each way. I'm riding about 15 mph. Multiply that by four and you get up to car speeds. Plus or minus 4 mph up and down. Car driving, bicycle riding, same human controlling both.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:06:54 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:10:42 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
>> >>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
>> >>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
>> >>>>>> stopped at a red light.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
>> >>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
>> >>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
>> >>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
>> >>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
>> >>>>>> even a flip phone.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
>> >>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
>> >>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
>> >>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
>> >>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
>> >>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
>> >>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
>> >>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
>> >>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
>> >>>>> car reading the paper.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
>> >>>>> remember any of it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
>> >>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
>> >>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
>> >>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
>> >>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
>> >>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
>> >>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
>> >>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
>> >>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
>> >>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
>> >>>> Fashionable! But... why?
>> >>>
>> >>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>> >>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>> >>> necessity?
>> >> Very little is needed to be honest, but it’s one of the few toys on the old
>> >> Volvo, assuming it’s a reasonably clear motorway, it’s handy to just hold
>> >> speed which largely is what other cars are doing.
>> >>
>> >> Helps that is an auto probably as well, so it will change gear if needed.
>> >>
>> >> It’s most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
>> >> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
>> >> understand the concept…
>> >
>> > Cruise control is very good at holding the speed limit as every other
>> > vehicle on the road including heavy trucks are going a minimum of 10 mph
>> > above the speed limit. 80 mph is so common that you might as well say
>> > that is the limit and 90 mph is very common. Driving in the middle of
>> > three lanes at the speed limit seems to infuriate people who want to
>> > drive in the slow lane at 100 mph and swerve back and forth around heavy
>> > trucks going 70 mph in the 55 mph state limit.
>> >
>> > As I said, if you want to be able to arrest people that are driving
>> > perfectly OK with blood alcohol levels that do not in the least disable
>> > their driving ability, driving at speeds 25 mph above the limit and
>> > swerving from lane to lane should be treated as equally dangerous and I
>> > ONLY see highway patrol pulling people over for obviously dangerous
>> > driving during commute. In 500 miles of driving up to and back from Reno
>> > I didn't see ONE car pulled over for driving over the limit. I saw one
>> > cop and he was at a wreck caused by these practices.
>> >
>> Average speed limits seems to calm stuff down, ie stops folks driving way
>> over and then stomping on the brakes causing stop start traffic.
>>
>> Which is why I’m generally in favour of them at least for urban/suburban
>> dual carriageway’s or motorways.
>
>If they want to allow people to drive at 90 mph fine. Set the limit at 90 mph. Don't set it at 65 and allow everyone to break the law. In Arizona the freeway speed limit is 80 and because that is so close to the reaction time of people they don't exceed it very often. Of course that speed limit is also for triple semi trucks and trailers.
>
>I do not like fake laws designed to allow those you like to get away with something and those you don't get fined.

As I mentioned in a post to Frank. The laws exist, all you need is to
enforce them.

But what would be the results of any political candidate campaigning
on the platform "We will rigidly enforce all traffic laws"?

There is an old saying, "you pays your money and you takes your
choice" which seems to date back to an 1846 "Punch" cartoon entitled
''The Ministerial Crisis'' has a showman telling a customer, ''Which
ever you please, my little dear. You pays your money, and you takes
your choice.''
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/24/2022 8:04 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:58:46 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:53:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/23/2022 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 00:10:40 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Cruise control is] most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
>>>>> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
>>>>> understand the concept…
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman.
>>>>
>>>> I think that you are rationalizing. Or at least I've been driving for
>>>> 70 years or so and never had a problem manually controlling the
>>>> vehicle speed.
>>>
>>> No disrespect, but: Based on my observation of other drivers, it may be
>>> more accurate to say you don't _think_ you had a problem manually
>>> controlling the vehicle speed. Again, many people's speed varies
>>> markedly without their realizing it.
>>>
>> Well yes, I suppose that my speed does vary quite a bit. I slow down
>> for sharp curves, I decelerate as I approach stop signs, and even slow
>> down if someone in front of me slows down. Why, I even slow down when
>> I see people crossing the road.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> I suspect if we had one of those Nazi mind control laser beam GPS Bill Gates bugs instilled in your car, we would clearly see your speed does vary up and down 2-3-4-5-6-7 miler per hour frequently as you drive on an empty road. With no cruise control. Human beings do not have perfect muscle control over their bodies at all times. Your feet twitch. Your fingers shake. Your eyes blink. You move around. You do NOT sit perfectly still while driving and keep your foot at the EXACT same position at ALL times. Thus keeping an exact pressure on the gas pedal.
>
> When I ride a bike on the flat. I cannot hold my speed at the exact same speed at all times. I vary my speed unconsciously up and down 1 mph. My speed is frequently going up and down a few tenths of a mph. Plus or minus 1 each way. I'm riding about 15 mph. Multiply that by four and you get up to car speeds. Plus or minus 4 mph up and down. Car driving, bicycle riding, same human controlling both.

Typical use of cruise control is the interstate or other relatively
congestion free highway. And its those situations that I usually notice
people unconsciously varying their speed.

About keeping the gas pedal at the same position: It may be that's what
some of those people are doing, because that does _not_ maintain
constant speed. A very slight change in road gradient has a distinct
effect on a car's speed, so fixing that pedal in one spot will cause
definite slowing on uphills and speeding up on downhills. However, there
certainly are people who slow slightly for even long radius freeway
curves, which makes me shake my head.

I see the inverse of this gradient effect in our car on cruise. As with
everyone else here (hah!) I have a gradient meter on my driver's door, a
simple bubble level marked with percent grade up or down. (That was for
investigating routes when working on a bike map.) And I usually drive
with the instrument panel indicating current miles per gallon. At
constant speed, I can easily observe the differences in current MPG with
barely visible changes in road inclination.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/24/2022 7:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:59:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2022 8:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:12:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/23/2022 7:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:30:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/23/2022 11:36 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/23/2022 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CD players are now "state of the ark." One of our best
>>>>>>>> friends was forced to buy a new car. A woman chatting on a
>>>>>>>> cell phone ran into her at speed while our friend was
>>>>>>>> stopped at a red light.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our friend, like me, has obscure music tastes and a healthy
>>>>>>>> CD collection. She was dismayed to find that her new car has
>>>>>>>> no CD player. It wants her to load her music collection onto
>>>>>>>> her smart phone, then Bluetooth into her car's stereo
>>>>>>>> system. But my friend refuses to carry any cell phone, not
>>>>>>>> even a flip phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I loaded a large music collection onto a thumb drive,
>>>>>>>> plugged it into her car's USB port and showed her how to
>>>>>>>> access it. It works after a fashion, provided one doesn't
>>>>>>>> want to listen to a particular recording at a particular time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I know, we're now supposed to use streaming services...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without belaboring the details, girlfriend bought a new car a few years
>>>>>>> ago, same model as the one I gave her which she wore out. New version
>>>>>>> has a super duper electronics array which senses and integrates with her
>>>>>>> hearing aids and Apple telephone. Salesman spent nearly an hour with her
>>>>>>> at the lot explaining all the various integrated features (telephone
>>>>>>> rings hearing aids, car plays audio from telephone, etc) as I sat in my
>>>>>>> car reading the paper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was the only time she turned on any of those features, can't
>>>>>>> remember any of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As with my friend. But my friend's attitude is absolute refusal. Touch
>>>>>> screens and menu trees with hundreds of choices? She wants none of it,
>>>>>> and I tend to agree. But I guess the fashionable thing is to spend at
>>>>>> least a week tweaking the graphic equalizer, recording your voice
>>>>>> commands, linking your phone and your eyeglasses to your car, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even her cruise control has what I consider poor user interface design.
>>>>>> There's an obvious pair of buttons on the steering wheel under her right
>>>>>> thumb, labeled something like "Resume/+" and "Set/-". The buttons are
>>>>>> separated by a decorative chrome bar. But no matter how she pushed the
>>>>>> buttons, she could not set the cruise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turns out the decorative chrome bar is the switch. The "buttons" are
>>>>>> just labels. The bar itself must be pushed upward or downward. Stylish!
>>>>>> Fashionable! But... why?
>>>>>
>>>>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>>>>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>>>>> necessity?
>>>>
>>>> I'd say it's a luxury for most people. But there are some people who
>>>> should be forced to use it.
>>>>
>>>> I have two friends with whom I hate to ride. On hour long freeway rides,
>>>> their speed fluctuates from five below to five above the speed limit,
>>>> totally at random. They seem to lack the ability to keep speed constant.
>>>> I actually ask them to engage speed control.
>>>>
>>>> That behavior by others drives me crazy when I'm driving, too. I
>>>> frequently joke to my wife "I'm so inspirational!" What I mean is this:
>>>> My cruise control is set for the limit. I come up on someone driving
>>>> maybe five miles per hour slower, so I signal and change to the left
>>>> (passing) lane. As I come up next to them, they suddenly accelerate. I
>>>> think what happens is my presence reminds them they can go faster, so
>>>> they do...
>>>>
>>>> ... until they lose attention and drop back down again. Many times that
>>>> happens exactly as they're passing a slower truck, so I'm stuck behind
>>>> them until they wake up again.
>>>
>>> I think that cruse control should be banned. If you are going to drive
>>> a big heavy 2 ton vehicle at a velocity of, say 5,000 feet/minute,
>>> then I truly believe that the operator should be paying attention to
>>> what is happening.
>>
>> I'd say cruise control allows you to look at things besides your
>> speedometer, and pay attention to things that might really matter.
>
> Then, logically, one would assume that you have such a device on your
> motorcycle and bicycle?

Ah, John, you're such a card!

The BMW motorcycle (1972 vintage) has a thumb wheel controlling friction
on the throttle. It can be set to maintain a certain throttle position,
but that's not the same as cruise control, as I just wrote in another
post. But again, it was made in 1972. Some modern BMWs do have cruise
control.

Obviously, such a thing is impossible with a bicycle. What would you do,
deliver an electric shock to the rider to make him pedal harder?

In any case, I think the system has benefit. That's not the same as
saying it's a necessity. I don't know about you, but I'm not much into
"safety inflation."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:04:31 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:58:46 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:53:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/23/2022 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 00:10:40 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> >> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [Cruise control is] most useful thinking about it, in the average speed cameras areas to
>> >>> make sure you don’t drift over, as a surprisingly number of folks don’t
>> >>> understand the concept…
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger Merriman.
>> >>
>> >> I think that you are rationalizing. Or at least I've been driving for
>> >> 70 years or so and never had a problem manually controlling the
>> >> vehicle speed.
>> >
>> >No disrespect, but: Based on my observation of other drivers, it may be
>> >more accurate to say you don't _think_ you had a problem manually
>> >controlling the vehicle speed. Again, many people's speed varies
>> >markedly without their realizing it.
>> >
>> Well yes, I suppose that my speed does vary quite a bit. I slow down
>> for sharp curves, I decelerate as I approach stop signs, and even slow
>> down if someone in front of me slows down. Why, I even slow down when
>> I see people crossing the road.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>I suspect if we had one of those Nazi mind control laser beam GPS Bill Gates bugs instilled in your car, we would clearly see your speed does vary up and down 2-3-4-5-6-7 miler per hour frequently as you drive on an empty road. With no cruise control. Human beings do not have perfect muscle control over their bodies at all times. Your feet twitch. Your fingers shake. Your eyes blink. You move around. You do NOT sit perfectly still while driving and keep your foot at the EXACT same position at ALL times. Thus keeping an exact pressure on the gas pedal.
>
Well yes, the speed does vary and your foot doesn't remain in the same
position on the pedal, largely because if it did the car would slow
going up hills and speed up going down hills (:-)

But speed varies with all transportation devices, that I am aware of.
Auto's, Trucks, motorcycles, boats both power and sail, airplanes. the
argument seems nonsensical at best.

>When I ride a bike on the flat. I cannot hold my speed at the exact same speed at all times. I vary my speed unconsciously up and down 1 mph. My speed is frequently going up and down a few tenths of a mph. Plus or minus 1 each way. I'm riding about 15 mph. Multiply that by four and you get up to car speeds. Plus or minus 4 mph up and down. Car driving, bicycle riding, same human controlling both.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 07:55:59 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> +1 on deer driving habits. Here, every teen is drilled on
> driving in snow and admonished to never swerve for a deer.
> You'll probably survive a deer hit but probably not a tree
> crash.

My father told me, long before I learned to drive, that when an animal
is in my path, brake as hard as you can, but never, never swerve. You
are as likely to swerve into the animal as away from it.

Much, much later I learned that deer travel in herds -- if the first
deer makes it across the road, the rest assume that there are no
predators around and cross without looking. So if you see a deer
cross the road, slam on the brakes so that you won't hit the second
one very hard.

Our driver-side mirror was mis-aligned. We found a sitzmark, but no
deer, and the only way out was over a high fence, so we assume that
the deer wasn't hurt much either.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 06:01:42 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
> necessity?

Cruise control keeps one's right leg from aching while driving from
Indiana to New York.

It doesn't free a hand, so would be no help in applying make-up or
talking on the phone.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:08:04 AM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 06:01:42 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
> > applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
> > necessity?
> Cruise control keeps one's right leg from aching while driving from
> Indiana to New York.
>
> It doesn't free a hand, so would be no help in applying make-up or
> talking on the phone.

Cruise controls were invented to maintain a steady speed that allows you the best mileage possible. On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg. And this with a full size car. I can only imagine when it would be with a properly designed economy car. Tesla's "self driving" feature greatly extends their mileage to something like 60% longer range.

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:36:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 8:08:04 AM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 06:01:42 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
> > > applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
> > > necessity?
> > Cruise control keeps one's right leg from aching while driving from
> > Indiana to New York.
> >
> > It doesn't free a hand, so would be no help in applying make-up or
> > talking on the phone.
> Cruise controls were invented to maintain a steady speed that allows you the best mileage possible.

No. Cruise control in autos keeps a constant speed. Irregardless of the road grade. So it applies more gas going up the hill to keep you at a constant speed and gives less gas going down the hill. This wastes gas going up the hill. Reducing gas mileage. The best way to maximize gas mileage is to keep a constant pressure on the gas pedal. Keep the gas going into the engine at the same rate all the time. So you will slow down going up the hill if you keep the gas infeed constant. And speed up going down the hill. Maximizing gas mileage requires constant gas going into the engine. NOT giving more gas to maintain an artificial speed with cruise control. Tommy, for a so called "engineer" (HaHaHoHo), you have no concept at all about how the world works.

There is a very simple corollary in bicycling. RPM. Cadence. Remember long ago the rage was to maintain a constant RPM when riding. Cadence sensors were sold on many bicycle computers. Keep a constant RPM and you will be less tired. Shift gears to keep your body/legs in that optimal RPM. Did not matter if going up or down hill. Just pedal the same RPM at all times and you will maximize endurance and longevity. And by pedaling the same RPM you are also putting out the same power at all times.

> On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg.

Huh. Only Tommy boy can outsmart the laws of physics and mechanical engineering to get increased gas mileage going into a headwind. You should sell your genius abilities Tommy. You'd be a trillionaire before the next full moon.

And this with a full size car. I can only imagine when it would be with a properly designed economy car. Tesla's "self driving" feature greatly extends their mileage to something like 60% longer range.

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:08:00 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 06:01:42 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> But does one NEED cruse control? Yes, I know it is a help while
>> applying one's makeup, or talking on the Phone, but is it really a
>> necessity?
>
>Cruise control keeps one's right leg from aching while driving from
>Indiana to New York.
>
>It doesn't free a hand, so would be no help in applying make-up or
>talking on the phone.

It must be old age. I drove across the U.S. twice, 12 hours plus, each
day and my leg didn't get sore. As for applying makeup and talking on
the phone... I read that the most common cause of auto "accidents" is
inattention and I guess I assumed that was caused by applying makeup
and/or talking on the phone.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/25/2022 5:22 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:36:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>
>> On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg.
>
> Huh. Only Tommy boy can outsmart the laws of physics and mechanical engineering to get increased gas mileage going into a headwind. You should sell your genius abilities Tommy. You'd be a trillionaire before the next full moon.

Not to mention the disconnect between Tom's claims and the mileage
ratings of his car.

I'm assuming he's talking about his older Ford Taurus, although I don't
remember what model year he owns. It hardly matters, because the EPA
ratings top out at around 30 mpg highway
https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/12/ford-taurus-gas-mileage/

and the real world results, by surveys, are about 20 mpg overall.
https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus

Nobody but Tom gets 45 mpg in a Taurus except while using a Jute-like
trick* of coasting downhill in neutral.
https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus/2019

(*Jute entered this discussion group claiming that his sit-up-and-beg
tank of a bike was very aerodynamic because it hit something like 60 mph
on a downhill. He later claimed he actually meant it occurred when he
was pulled up to speed with a rope, then coasted behind a hired farmer's
truck that had a huge plywood wind shield bolted across its tail.
Creative writing at Jute's piss-poor best!)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 6:28:25 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/25/2022 5:22 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:36:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg.
> >
> > Huh. Only Tommy boy can outsmart the laws of physics and mechanical engineering to get increased gas mileage going into a headwind. You should sell your genius abilities Tommy. You'd be a trillionaire before the next full moon.
> Not to mention the disconnect between Tom's claims and the mileage
> ratings of his car.
>
> I'm assuming he's talking about his older Ford Taurus, although I don't
> remember what model year he owns. It hardly matters, because the EPA
> ratings top out at around 30 mpg highway
> https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/12/ford-taurus-gas-mileage/
>
> and the real world results, by surveys, are about 20 mpg overall.
> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus
>
> Nobody but Tom gets 45 mpg in a Taurus except while using a Jute-like
> trick* of coasting downhill in neutral.
> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus/2019

I think you would have to coast down the Rocky Mountains with the car in neutral AND the engine turned off to get 45mpg in a Ford Taurus. I remember Tommy talking about driving a Taurus too. But Tommy said he got 45mpg going INTO a HEADWIND with his Taurus. And of course since Tommy said it, its gotta be true. Just like Trumpy always told the truth too. Tommy did say he went to Phoenix. So maybe Tommy drove his car off the edge of the Grand Canyon and somehow measured the mpg as it was falling to the bottom. That might have been 45mpg for the 6093 foot drop into the Grand Canyon.

>
> (*Jute entered this discussion group claiming that his sit-up-and-beg
> tank of a bike was very aerodynamic because it hit something like 60 mph
> on a downhill. He later claimed he actually meant it occurred when he
> was pulled up to speed with a rope, then coasted behind a hired farmer's
> truck that had a huge plywood wind shield bolted across its tail.
> Creative writing at Jute's piss-poor best!)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/25/2022 5:22 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:36:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and
>>> on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg.
>>
>> Huh. Only Tommy boy can outsmart the laws of physics and mechanical
>> engineering to get increased gas mileage going into a headwind. You
>> should sell your genius abilities Tommy. You'd be a trillionaire before
>> the next full moon.
>
> Not to mention the disconnect between Tom's claims and the mileage
> ratings of his car.
>
Not necessarily (though I don’t know what he claims!) but certainly you can
do better than the claims with driving style, my old Volvo is rated for
28MPG though the grades for that will have changed as it’s 19 years old!

But even so my driving is mixed, and for that I’d expect 30 MPG it will dip
below if it’s a lot of city traffic, I log my miles so each fill up is
calculated,

But on a long motorway drive will do 35MPG maybe touch more if speeds are
lower, though as it’s tank is longer than drives I’m likely to do, so
rarely is it one type of driving essentially.

This said the Taurus is highly likely to be all things equal heavier on
fuel as its (slightly) longer heavier car and fair bit wider, this is born
out by fairly similar performance specs ie 0-60/top speed Eve. With mostly
a bigger engine.

But back to point you certainly can with smoother and slower driving
improve the rated MPG.

But you certainly can
> I'm assuming he's talking about his older Ford Taurus, although I don't
> remember what model year he owns. It hardly matters, because the EPA
> ratings top out at around 30 mpg highway
> https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/12/ford-taurus-gas-mileage/

>
> and the real world results, by surveys, are about 20 mpg overall.
> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus
>
> Nobody but Tom gets 45 mpg in a Taurus except while using a Jute-like
> trick* of coasting downhill in neutral.
> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus/2019
>
> (*Jute entered this discussion group claiming that his sit-up-and-beg
> tank of a bike was very aerodynamic because it hit something like 60 mph
> on a downhill. He later claimed he actually meant it occurred when he
> was pulled up to speed with a rope, then coasted behind a hired farmer's
> truck that had a huge plywood wind shield bolted across its tail.
> Creative writing at Jute's piss-poor best!)
>
Roger Merriman

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:39:45 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 3/25/2022 5:22 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:36:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>> On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and
>>>> on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg.
>>>
>>> Huh. Only Tommy boy can outsmart the laws of physics and mechanical
>>> engineering to get increased gas mileage going into a headwind. You
>>> should sell your genius abilities Tommy. You'd be a trillionaire before
>>> the next full moon.
>>
>> Not to mention the disconnect between Tom's claims and the mileage
>> ratings of his car.
>>
>Not necessarily (though I don’t know what he claims!) but certainly you can
>do better than the claims with driving style, my old Volvo is rated for
>28MPG though the grades for that will have changed as it’s 19 years old!
>
>But even so my driving is mixed, and for that I’d expect 30 MPG it will dip
>below if it’s a lot of city traffic, I log my miles so each fill up is
>calculated,
>
>But on a long motorway drive will do 35MPG maybe touch more if speeds are
>lower, though as it’s tank is longer than drives I’m likely to do, so
>rarely is it one type of driving essentially.
>
>This said the Taurus is highly likely to be all things equal heavier on
>fuel as its (slightly) longer heavier car and fair bit wider, this is born
>out by fairly similar performance specs ie 0-60/top speed Eve. With mostly
>a bigger engine.
>
>But back to point you certainly can with smoother and slower driving
>improve the rated MPG.
>
>But you certainly can
>> I'm assuming he's talking about his older Ford Taurus, although I don't
>> remember what model year he owns. It hardly matters, because the EPA
>> ratings top out at around 30 mpg highway
>> https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/12/ford-taurus-gas-mileage/
>
>
>>
>> and the real world results, by surveys, are about 20 mpg overall.
>> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus
>>
>> Nobody but Tom gets 45 mpg in a Taurus except while using a Jute-like
>> trick* of coasting downhill in neutral.
>> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus/2019
>>
>> (*Jute entered this discussion group claiming that his sit-up-and-beg
>> tank of a bike was very aerodynamic because it hit something like 60 mph
>> on a downhill. He later claimed he actually meant it occurred when he
>> was pulled up to speed with a rope, then coasted behind a hired farmer's
>> truck that had a huge plywood wind shield bolted across its tail.
>> Creative writing at Jute's piss-poor best!)
>>
>Roger Merriman

Well, I've always thought that a long and tedious discussion about MPG
was, at best irrational. If you want fuel economy it is easy... just
buy a tiny little car. Or, if you must have some hulking great monster
of an automobile why worry about MPG?

What is the old saying? "You pays your money and you takes your
choice".
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:39:45 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/25/2022 5:22 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:36:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On my drive to Phoenix from here in the bay area I averaged 35 mpg and
>>>>> on the way back, despite driving into a headwind I got up to 45 mpg.
>>>>
>>>> Huh. Only Tommy boy can outsmart the laws of physics and mechanical
>>>> engineering to get increased gas mileage going into a headwind. You
>>>> should sell your genius abilities Tommy. You'd be a trillionaire before
>>>> the next full moon.
>>>
>>> Not to mention the disconnect between Tom's claims and the mileage
>>> ratings of his car.
>>>
>> Not necessarily (though I don’t know what he claims!) but certainly you can
>> do better than the claims with driving style, my old Volvo is rated for
>> 28MPG though the grades for that will have changed as it’s 19 years old!
>>
>> But even so my driving is mixed, and for that I’d expect 30 MPG it will dip
>> below if it’s a lot of city traffic, I log my miles so each fill up is
>> calculated,
>>
>> But on a long motorway drive will do 35MPG maybe touch more if speeds are
>> lower, though as it’s tank is longer than drives I’m likely to do, so
>> rarely is it one type of driving essentially.
>>
>> This said the Taurus is highly likely to be all things equal heavier on
>> fuel as its (slightly) longer heavier car and fair bit wider, this is born
>> out by fairly similar performance specs ie 0-60/top speed Eve. With mostly
>> a bigger engine.
>>
>> But back to point you certainly can with smoother and slower driving
>> improve the rated MPG.
>>
>> But you certainly can
>>> I'm assuming he's talking about his older Ford Taurus, although I don't
>>> remember what model year he owns. It hardly matters, because the EPA
>>> ratings top out at around 30 mpg highway
>>> https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/12/ford-taurus-gas-mileage/
>>
>>
>>>
>>> and the real world results, by surveys, are about 20 mpg overall.
>>> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus
>>>
>>> Nobody but Tom gets 45 mpg in a Taurus except while using a Jute-like
>>> trick* of coasting downhill in neutral.
>>> https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/taurus/2019
>>>
>>> (*Jute entered this discussion group claiming that his sit-up-and-beg
>>> tank of a bike was very aerodynamic because it hit something like 60 mph
>>> on a downhill. He later claimed he actually meant it occurred when he
>>> was pulled up to speed with a rope, then coasted behind a hired farmer's
>>> truck that had a huge plywood wind shield bolted across its tail.
>>> Creative writing at Jute's piss-poor best!)
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Well, I've always thought that a long and tedious discussion about MPG
> was, at best irrational. If you want fuel economy it is easy... just
> buy a tiny little car. Or, if you must have some hulking great monster
> of an automobile why worry about MPG?
>
> What is the old saying? "You pays your money and you takes your
> choice".

Guess for some makes a big difference to household expenses, I do low
enough annual miles for it to be broadly not a issue, even now with high
fuel costs I’d be more concerned about house energy than the car.

Roger Merriman