Am 19.04.2022 um 17:08 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 7:58:22 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
>>>
>>> Yes, there are excesses:
>>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>>>
But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a minuscule outlier
>>> (still wrong, just note they are extremely rare) being something
>>> around twenty per year out of some 90 million police stops.
>> I think the better base of comparison would be "police wrongful
>> homicides of black citizens out of police homicides of black
>> citizens".
>>
>> How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of citizens out
>> of police homicides of citizens"?
>
> This is probably offset in the wrong direction because of the extreme
> violence of the black gangs and their habits of carrying completely
> illegal fully automatic weapons. Police therefore, tend take no
> chances and are overly strongarm in the taking of citizens mistakenly
> identified as criminals.
>
> So you prevent that by handcuffing the police? Or does that actually
> make it worse?

My numbers were formulated to exclude this influence. If Police
lawfully shoot 10 times more blacks than Whites and wrongfully shoot 5
times more Blacks than Whites, that might be tragic but is completely
justifiable due to those violent Black gangs.

Am 19.04.2022 um 18:38 schrieb AMuzi:
> On 4/19/2022 9:58 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
>>>
>>> Yes, there are excesses:
>>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>>>
>>>
>>> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
>>> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are
>>> extremely rare) being something around twenty per year out
>>> of some 90 million police stops.
>>
>> I think the better base of comparison would be "police
>> wrongful homicides of black citizens out of police homicides
>> of black citizens".
>>
>> How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of
>> citizens out of police homicides of citizens"?
>
> Without engaging skin color, can we agree that shooting at police and
> then taking a fatal second place at the two-way range is a different
> thing altogether?

Fully agreed.

On 4/18/2022 5:19 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Well, I suppose I was using Judge" as a cover all for "Legal system"
> so I was at fault. But how does going to traffic school negate an
> actual malfeasance? Sort of like, "well, yes I did steal that $100,000
> but if I go to finance school I don't have to go to jail"?

It varies by state, but in California you can go to traffic school to
avoid the infraction showing up on your driving record (which would
cause your insurance rates to go up). You can't do this more than once
every 18 months. You still have to pay the fine.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:38:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/19/2022 9:58 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
> >>
> >> Yes, there are excesses:
> >> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
> >>
> >> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
> >> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are
> >> extremely rare) being something around twenty per year out
> >> of some 90 million police stops.
> >
> > I think the better base of comparison would be "police
> > wrongful homicides of black citizens out of police homicides
> > of black citizens".
> >
> > How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of
> > citizens out of police homicides of citizens"?
> >
> > Rolf
> Without engaging skin color, can we agree that shooting at
> police and then taking a fatal second place at the two-way
> range is a different thing altogether?

I might have a far different observation than other as far as skin color is concerned. I was born in Oakland and went into the service, I was stationed in Texas, Colorado, Washington and Riverside CA. At none of those places or any place I visited from those stations such as Idaho did I observe any racism of any sort and I was quite sensitive to it since as a child blacks were supposed to sit in the back of the bus and I was there when that was changed by white people and not blacks. Or perhaps I should say, it was changed by a black woman who would not go to the back of the bus where routy black teenagers were making the usual fools of themselves that teenagers do, and the white people on the bus backed her up 100%. So I would have been sensitive to any ill treatment of blacks. Now we had two black shop sergeants that were deferential but that might simply have been because our Chief Master Sergeant was an asshole of the first water. His assistant Senior Master Sargent from the south was entirely opposite. In fact, all of the people from the south treated blacks as complete equals and the northerners were quite stand-offish but that could have been simply inexperience with blacks at that time. They were quite friendly with the shop sergeants whose work was completely above reproach.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:54:55 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 19.04.2022 um 17:08 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 7:58:22 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >> Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
> >>>
> >>> Yes, there are excesses:
> >>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
> >>>
> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a minuscule outlier
> >>> (still wrong, just note they are extremely rare) being something
> >>> around twenty per year out of some 90 million police stops.
> >> I think the better base of comparison would be "police wrongful
> >> homicides of black citizens out of police homicides of black
> >> citizens".
> >>
> >> How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of citizens out
> >> of police homicides of citizens"?
> >
> > This is probably offset in the wrong direction because of the extreme
> > violence of the black gangs and their habits of carrying completely
> > illegal fully automatic weapons. Police therefore, tend take no
> > chances and are overly strongarm in the taking of citizens mistakenly
> > identified as criminals.
> >
> > So you prevent that by handcuffing the police? Or does that actually
> > make it worse?
> My numbers were formulated to exclude this influence. If Police
> lawfully shoot 10 times more blacks than Whites and wrongfully shoot 5
> times more Blacks than Whites, that might be tragic but is completely
> justifiable due to those violent Black gangs.
Even though blacks are involved in about half of all violent crimes, I suppose they are more fearful of cops and obey them more often because the percentage of white shootings is about twice that of black shootings.

On 4/19/2022 12:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/19/2022 9:58 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
>>>
>>> Yes, there are excesses:
>>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>>>
>>>
>>> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
>>> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are
>>> extremely rare) being something around twenty per year out
>>> of some 90 million police stops.
>>
>> I think the better base of comparison would be "police
>> wrongful homicides of black citizens out of police homicides
>> of black citizens".
>>
>> How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of
>> citizens out of police homicides of citizens"?
>>
>> Rolf
>
> Without engaging skin color, can we agree that shooting at police and
> then taking a fatal second place at the two-way range is a different
> thing altogether?
>
+1

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/19/2022 4:32 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 11:22:47 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:41:12 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:13:20 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/18/2022 5:15 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>>>> I'm in favor of enforcing traffic laws to get money, assuming the
>>>> offenders have actually broken a traffic law.
>>>
>>> What I am talking about is the often reported instances of a police pulling over someone for expired tags on their plates. Something minor. Even if the driver is obeying the traffic laws. Now I agree a law is being broken because the tags are expired. Kids jaywalking in the middle of the block and not at the crosswalks is illegal too. Cops should ticket every kid in town. And when the cops stop the driver, they arrest, confiscate the contents of the car and sell it at auction and keep the money. And take the wallet from the driver and keep the money. And the above scenario is also reported to happen far more to black drivers than white drivers.
>>>
>>> I am all for enforcing the laws. Traffic and otherwise. But it can and does get out of hand and go beyond simply keeping people safe. I am not for that.
>> Your argument is still illogical at best. Vehicle registration is, to
>> some extent, a means of paying the government to organize things. Like
>> taxes.As well as a method of identifying the vehicle.
>>
>> So if having up to date tags on your car is like paying taxes and
>> never mind if you don't pay for up to date car registration try not
>> paying you income tax. Or go to the cops and tell them your car was
>> stolen and when they ask for the registration tell 'em you don't have
>> any.
>>
>> You are like a lot of other people. "Speeding ? Don't worry about
>> they, I always speed. The speed limits are foolish!" Then someone who
>> is driving too fast runs over your kid at the school crosswalk and it
>> is a whole different story.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> For some reason you missed the point I was making. Here in the USA we have this notion that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Cops require a reason to arrest someone. Cops require a search warrant to search homes. Not sure how vehicles work for searches. I think its called probable cause. The idea of cops needing a reason to arrest or search someone. They cannot just stop anyone and interrogate them. I suspect things work differently in Russia. Cops pulling over someone for expired tags or for jaywalking. Law breakers. And then using that to arrest, interrogate, search, confiscate, etc. That is the part where the cops get out of hand and carry it too far portion. Long ago, decades ago, when the speed limit was only 55 mph. You could more or less drive 60 without any worries of being pulled over for speeding. Even though technically you were speeding at 56 and above. But minor speeding was overlooked by the cops or highway patrol.

Minor speeding is still overlooked by cops and the highway patrol. I've
gone through Interstate radar traps at the speed limit while being
passed by drivers going at least 5 mph faster who were not pulled over.

Our village is listed as a "speed trap" on certain websites, which is
fine with me. I want motorists to behave. But despite that, our former
(late) police chief talked to me about the fact that they do _not_
ticket for slightly over. "We have to be reasonable, Frank."

If a plate is expired or invalid, the cops should stop the car, until
someone comes up with another way to prevent such a car from being
driven. If a cop stops such a car and detects evidence of alcohol or
drug use or a loose firearm, he should investigate.

Yes, there are aspects of the Forfeiture laws that need serious
revision. Legislators should do that, and cops should not be abusing
citizens. But meanwhile, cops must enforce laws.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired about his having
> passed counterfeit currency. His companions all quietly waited as
> instructed and did not resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As
> he overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at initial
> conversation before any physical contact. Floyd violently resisted
> arrest, even smashing his way out of a police car twice after being
> handcuffed.  Post mortem, he still had several lethal doses worth of
> undigested dope in his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire
> set of body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction are not
> at all so clear as some believe.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912

Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/18/2022 11:32 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:

> The number of criminals and criminal tendency is equal for the races.

I don't think you've proven that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:32:40 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 11:22:47 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:41:12 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:13:20 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 4/18/2022 5:15 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>> >> I'm in favor of enforcing traffic laws to get money, assuming the
>> >> offenders have actually broken a traffic law.
>> >
>> >What I am talking about is the often reported instances of a police pulling over someone for expired tags on their plates. Something minor. Even if the driver is obeying the traffic laws. Now I agree a law is being broken because the tags are expired. Kids jaywalking in the middle of the block and not at the crosswalks is illegal too. Cops should ticket every kid in town. And when the cops stop the driver, they arrest, confiscate the contents of the car and sell it at auction and keep the money. And take the wallet from the driver and keep the money. And the above scenario is also reported to happen far more to black drivers than white drivers.
>> >
>> >I am all for enforcing the laws. Traffic and otherwise. But it can and does get out of hand and go beyond simply keeping people safe. I am not for that.
>> Your argument is still illogical at best. Vehicle registration is, to
>> some extent, a means of paying the government to organize things. Like
>> taxes.As well as a method of identifying the vehicle.
>>
>> So if having up to date tags on your car is like paying taxes and
>> never mind if you don't pay for up to date car registration try not
>> paying you income tax. Or go to the cops and tell them your car was
>> stolen and when they ask for the registration tell 'em you don't have
>> any.
>>
>> You are like a lot of other people. "Speeding ? Don't worry about
>> they, I always speed. The speed limits are foolish!" Then someone who
>> is driving too fast runs over your kid at the school crosswalk and it
>> is a whole different story.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>For some reason you missed the point I was making. Here in the USA we have this notion that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Cops require a reason to arrest someone. Cops require a search warrant to search homes. Not sure how vehicles work for searches. I think its called probable cause. The idea of cops needing a reason to arrest or search someone. They cannot just stop anyone and interrogate them. I suspect things work differently in Russia. Cops pulling over someone for expired tags or for jaywalking. Law breakers. And then using that to arrest, interrogate, search, confiscate, etc. That is the part where the cops get out of hand and carry it too far portion. Long ago, decades ago, when the speed limit was only 55 mph. You could more or less drive 60 without any worries of being pulled over for speeding. Even though technically you were speeding at 56 and above. But minor speeding was overlooked by the cops or highway patrol.

And once again you are "running all around
Robin Hood's barn" and missing the point. If your vehicle registration
has expired you are in violation of the law and it is perfectly lawful
for the police to stop you. In fact I suspect a police officer would
be admonished for not stopping the vehicle.

Note: A guilty finding in Massachusetts on a charge of operating an
unregistered vehicle carries with it the penalties or a license
suspension for 60 days, as well as significant insurance penalty and
other potential costs. For a second offense charge, they will suspend
your license for a year.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:19:50 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:12:08 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:32:41 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:32:27 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:42:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> > https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/video/surveillance-video-shows-bicyclist-struck-by-driver-in-west-loop/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Defunding the police has led to the preposterous end of enforcing traffic violations which could make up for the lost funds.
>> >> >
>> >> >I doubt any sane and rational person is against the police enforcing the laws properly. What some people are against is the police using made up nonsense to stop all black drivers. And then arresting or shooting them dead. And sense there is no policing of the police, the only way to prevent police abuse is to defund the police. No one monitors the police. They have free will to do anything they please. No one can hold them accountable because they have immunity from everything. So to prevent police abuse, you eliminate the police. Not exactly the best way to achieve the result of police abuse. Because you end up with less law enforcement. But you take the good with the bad. Less police lawbreakers, good, and more overall lawbreakers, bad.
>> >> >
>> >> >As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>> >> >
>> >> Your arguments are illogical, at best. Sure "police brutality" exists.
>> >> but frequently it exists primarily in the mind of the oppressed. "But
>> >> he hit me with a stick!" "And what were you doing when he hit you?"
>> >> "Err... well I had my hand in his pocket. See... his wallet was stuck
>> >> somehow and I couldn't get it out".
>> >
>> >Apparently John you have not been keeping up with what is happening in the USA. A few stories I recall. Police woman goes home to her apartment, or so she thought, and shoots the man in the apartment. Because he actually lived in the apartment. Police serving a warrant in Kentucky(?) break into a house and shoot a woman in her bedroom. Wrong house they served the warrant on. Oops. 3-4-5 cops on top of the black guy up in Minnesota, and choke him to death and he dies of suffocation. If you have that many cops sitting on top of the guy's back, do you really need to suffocate, choke him? Some big city, Chicago(?), where the suspect is running away from the cops and they shoot him 15 times in the back. And this suspect was not someone they had witnessed murder someone in front of their eyes. He was just someone they were chasing for some reason. Not saying he was not guilty. But unless someone is a murderer, are the police justified in shooting someone 15 times in the back.
>> >
>> Yup, A few stories you recall.
>>
>> But there are, in the U.S. some 693,644 police in the U.S. (2020)
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/
>> and you post four or five examples of malfeasant.
>> What were the other 693,600 cops doing?
>>
>> As I said before, your argument seems to be based on the lurid stories
>> that you read in the News, and lets be honest here, "Cops Shoot Bloke
>> Running Away" gets on the front page while, Cops drive Sick Woman to
>> Hospital" doesn't even make it into the back pages.
>>
>> Then too it might be pointed out that in 2020 police made some
>> 7,632,473 arrests
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/
>> So, say 7-1/2 million cases and the cops screw up, what did you say? 6
>> or 7 times? Call it 10 times, that is (Wow!) 0.00000131019... 0.0001%
>> of the time?
>>
>> In comparison, I read that in 2020 traffic fatalities in the U.S. were
>> 11.67/100,000 population or 1.167%
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
>> Makes the cops look pretty good when compared to Mr. Average American
>> doesn't it
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>So the 1.167% traffic fatalities is a big deal according to you. Much more important than the number of people the cops kill. You estimated it at 10 people based on my remembrance of news articles. OK. 126.430 rapes in the USA in 2020. US Census population of 331,449,281 on April 1, 2020. 50.8% female. I am assuming all rapes are women. So 168,376,235 females in USA. That works out to 0.275% women/girls raped in the USA in 2020. Why the F-CK are we concerned at all about rape in the USA? It is only one fourth as much as the far more important traffic deaths. Using your police numbers, we had about 5.5 cops per female raped in the USA in 2020. Lets call that the cops/rape ratio.
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/
>https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221

Nope, I'm not judging anything. I'm simply pointing out that you are
condemning the police for wrong doing based on some sort of lured news
article that you read on the Internet rather then any actual knowledge
of the actual facts.

Which is, well, sort of stupid, isn't it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:16:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >
>> George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired about his having
>> passed counterfeit currency. His companions all quietly waited as
>> instructed and did not resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As
>> he overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at initial
>> conversation before any physical contact. Floyd violently resisted
>> arrest, even smashing his way out of a police car twice after being
>> handcuffed.  Post mortem, he still had several lethal doses worth of
>> undigested dope in his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire
>> set of body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction are not
>> at all so clear as some believe.
>
>https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/
>
>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912
>
>Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.

Are you sure? and does your method guarantee restraint with no
possibility of accidental death?

In the George Floyd case mentioned above the police had arrested him,
handcuffed him and put him in the back seat of the "Cruiser". Floyd
then broke out of the car and attempted to run away.The police officer
then - I'm guessing here - attempted to put a modified "choke hold" on
Floyd, a hold that restricts blood flow to the brain and is, or was,
taught in most, perhaps all, police and military training. And he
died.

What would you have done differently.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 6:00:08 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:19:50 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:12:08 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:32:41 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:32:27 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:42:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> > https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/video/surveillance-video-shows-bicyclist-struck-by-driver-in-west-loop/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Defunding the police has led to the preposterous end of enforcing traffic violations which could make up for the lost funds.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I doubt any sane and rational person is against the police enforcing the laws properly. What some people are against is the police using made up nonsense to stop all black drivers. And then arresting or shooting them dead. And sense there is no policing of the police, the only way to prevent police abuse is to defund the police. No one monitors the police. They have free will to do anything they please. No one can hold them accountable because they have immunity from everything. So to prevent police abuse, you eliminate the police. Not exactly the best way to achieve the result of police abuse. Because you end up with less law enforcement. But you take the good with the bad. Less police lawbreakers, good, and more overall lawbreakers, bad.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
> >> >> >
> >> >> Your arguments are illogical, at best. Sure "police brutality" exists.
> >> >> but frequently it exists primarily in the mind of the oppressed. "But
> >> >> he hit me with a stick!" "And what were you doing when he hit you?"
> >> >> "Err... well I had my hand in his pocket. See... his wallet was stuck
> >> >> somehow and I couldn't get it out".
> >> >
> >> >Apparently John you have not been keeping up with what is happening in the USA. A few stories I recall. Police woman goes home to her apartment, or so she thought, and shoots the man in the apartment. Because he actually lived in the apartment. Police serving a warrant in Kentucky(?) break into a house and shoot a woman in her bedroom. Wrong house they served the warrant on. Oops. 3-4-5 cops on top of the black guy up in Minnesota, and choke him to death and he dies of suffocation. If you have that many cops sitting on top of the guy's back, do you really need to suffocate, choke him? Some big city, Chicago(?), where the suspect is running away from the cops and they shoot him 15 times in the back. And this suspect was not someone they had witnessed murder someone in front of their eyes. He was just someone they were chasing for some reason. Not saying he was not guilty. But unless someone is a murderer, are the police justified in shooting someone 15 times in the back.
> >> >
> >> Yup, A few stories you recall.
> >>
> >> But there are, in the U.S. some 693,644 police in the U.S. (2020)
> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/
> >> and you post four or five examples of malfeasant.
> >> What were the other 693,600 cops doing?
> >>
> >> As I said before, your argument seems to be based on the lurid stories
> >> that you read in the News, and lets be honest here, "Cops Shoot Bloke
> >> Running Away" gets on the front page while, Cops drive Sick Woman to
> >> Hospital" doesn't even make it into the back pages.
> >>
> >> Then too it might be pointed out that in 2020 police made some
> >> 7,632,473 arrests
> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/
> >> So, say 7-1/2 million cases and the cops screw up, what did you say? 6
> >> or 7 times? Call it 10 times, that is (Wow!) 0.00000131019... 0.0001%
> >> of the time?
> >>
> >> In comparison, I read that in 2020 traffic fatalities in the U.S. were
> >> 11.67/100,000 population or 1.167%
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
> >> Makes the cops look pretty good when compared to Mr. Average American
> >> doesn't it
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >So the 1.167% traffic fatalities is a big deal according to you. Much more important than the number of people the cops kill. You estimated it at 10 people based on my remembrance of news articles. OK. 126.430 rapes in the USA in 2020. US Census population of 331,449,281 on April 1, 2020. 50.8% female. I am assuming all rapes are women. So 168,376,235 females in USA. That works out to 0.275% women/girls raped in the USA in 2020. Why the F-CK are we concerned at all about rape in the USA? It is only one fourth as much as the far more important traffic deaths. Using your police numbers, we had about 5.5 cops per female raped in the USA in 2020. Lets call that the cops/rape ratio.
> >
> >https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/
> >https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221
> Nope, I'm not judging anything. I'm simply pointing out that you are
> condemning the police for wrong doing based on some sort of lured news
> article that you read on the Internet rather then any actual knowledge
> of the actual facts.
>
> Which is, well, sort of stupid, isn't it.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

I do not have any evidence of the opioid drug deaths occurring in the USA. Other than internet stories about how all the people in West Virginia are dying from overdoses. Therefore its all a LIE. No one dies of misuse of these drugs. I do not have any actual knowledge of the war in Ukraine. Other than through the internet and TV. So its all a LIE. The Russians obviously invaded to give the Ukrainians flowers and candy. I do not know of any woman being raped or sexually assaulted. So its all a LIE. No woman has ever been mistreated. So I am stupid for believing any of these lies ever occur. Every police officer in the USA should be conferred with sainthood.. (Not that the USA government bestows religious canonization upon anyone.) The police is made up of a cross section of the population. I do not believe only one type of person becomes a police. Only good people. General society is made up of every sort. Good and bad. Police forces end up with the same cross section. Take priests or religious people as another example. You have some who house the homeless and feed the hungry. Others who go on Fox shows to call for the killing of all gays. Or others who molest boys. Or the one in Russia who praises Putin for bombing the maternity hospital in Ukraine. Priests, religious people, like cops, and every other occupation, is made up of a broad cross section of all of society. Good and bad.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:38:00 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/19/2022 9:58 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
>>>
>>> Yes, there are excesses:
>>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>>>
>>> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
>>> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are
>>> extremely rare) being something around twenty per year out
>>> of some 90 million police stops.
>>
>> I think the better base of comparison would be "police
>> wrongful homicides of black citizens out of police homicides
>> of black citizens".
>>
>> How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of
>> citizens out of police homicides of citizens"?
>>
>> Rolf
>
>Without engaging skin color, can we agree that shooting at
>police and then taking a fatal second place at the two-way
>range is a different thing altogether?

I think that the point that is missed by most observers of "police
brutality" is that the observer is not commonly placed in a situation
where he might be killed by who ever they are dealing with. I have
been and I can assure you that your immediate reaction is to do
whatever you can to avoid it.

As the saying has it, "it concentrates the mind wonderfully well" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:38:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/19/2022 9:58 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > > Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
> > >>
> > >> Yes, there are excesses:
> > >> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
> > >>
> > >> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
> > >> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are
> > >> extremely rare) being something around twenty per year out
> > >> of some 90 million police stops.
> > >
> > > I think the better base of comparison would be "police
> > > wrongful homicides of black citizens out of police homicides
> > > of black citizens".
> > >
> > > How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of
> > > citizens out of police homicides of citizens"?
> > >
> > > Rolf
> > Without engaging skin color, can we agree that shooting at
> > police and then taking a fatal second place at the two-way
> > range is a different thing altogether?
> I might have a far different observation than other as far as skin color is concerned. I was born in Oakland and went into the service, I was stationed in Texas, Colorado, Washington and Riverside CA. At none of those places or any place I visited from those stations such as Idaho did I observe any racism of any sort and I was quite sensitive to it since as a child blacks were supposed to sit in the back of the bus and I was there when that was changed by white people and not blacks.

So Tommy says it was the good white folks who allowed, gave permission, for the blacks to sit in the front of the bus? Good one Tommy boy. Like many of your kind, you demonstrate your true nature in subtle ways.

I know down below you give credit to Rosa Parks in the Alabama bus case. Although you seem to have added in lots of made up fantasy about black teenagers for some reason. Why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks#Refusal_to_move

> Or perhaps I should say, it was changed by a black woman who would not go to the back of the bus where routy black teenagers were making the usual fools of themselves that teenagers do, and the white people on the bus backed her up 100%. So I would have been sensitive to any ill treatment of blacks. Now we had two black shop sergeants that were deferential but that might simply have been because our Chief Master Sergeant was an asshole of the first water. His assistant Senior Master Sargent from the south was entirely opposite. In fact, all of the people from the south treated blacks as complete equals and the northerners were quite stand-offish but that could have been simply inexperience with blacks at that time. They were quite friendly with the shop sergeants whose work was completely above reproach.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 09:01:07 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/18/2022 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:13:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/18/2022 5:15 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>>>
>>> I'm in favor of enforcing traffic laws to get money, assuming the
>>> offenders have actually broken a traffic law.
>>>
>>> As I see it, a certain amount of money is required to maintain
>>> civilization. It has to come from somebody. Why should law breakers not
>>> be asked to pay a bit extra? They are perfectly legitimate targets.
>>>
>>> If they don't like it, their choice should be obvious. Just obey the laws.
>>
>> Somewhere, maybe Georgia, I was told that police officers were paid,
>> awarded?, a portion of any fines paid by those who they arrested. And
>> why not, it would certainly influence police to be more interested in
>> their job.
>>
>> But to be honest, the average citizen doesn't have a clue what the
>> Police are doing. they get their knowledge, usually, from lurid news
>> articles. After all the fact that the Police stopped and fined some 75
>> people speeding in school zones and as a result now no one speeds past
>> the grade school, doesn't make exciting reading while a police
>> shooting? Wow!
>>
>
>Yes, there are excesses:
>https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>
>But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
>minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are extremely
>rare) being something around twenty per year out of some 90
>million police stops.

I believe that forfeiture of goods and assets used in, or abetting,
the committing of a crime is a matter of both federal and state laws.
Is it not?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:35:26 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 6:12:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:16:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired about his having
>> >> passed counterfeit currency. His companions all quietly waited as
>> >> instructed and did not resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As
>> >> he overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at initial
>> >> conversation before any physical contact. Floyd violently resisted
>> >> arrest, even smashing his way out of a police car twice after being
>> >> handcuffed. Post mortem, he still had several lethal doses worth of
>> >> undigested dope in his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire
>> >> set of body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction are not
>> >> at all so clear as some believe.
>> >
>> >https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/
>> >
>> >https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912
>> >
>> >Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.
>> Are you sure? and does your method guarantee restraint with no
>> possibility of accidental death?
>>
>> In the George Floyd case mentioned above the police had arrested him,
>> handcuffed him and put him in the back seat of the "Cruiser". Floyd
>> then broke out of the car and attempted to run away.The police officer
>> then - I'm guessing here - attempted to put a modified "choke hold" on
>> Floyd, a hold that restricts blood flow to the brain and is, or was,
>> taught in most, perhaps all, police and military training. And he
>> died.
>>
>> What would you have done differently.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>You are saying Floyd was handcuffed when the cops choked him to death? Why were they using a choke hold on him? If he was running away, escaping, while handcuffed, they could have just tripped him. Handcuffed people are not considered dangerous. What you are describing here is kind of like if a criminal is locked up in a jail cell in the police station. And the cop is worried, afraid, of the criminal. So he pulls out his gun and shoots the criminal inside the jail cell. Are you for that?

No, I'm "not saying". There was a video made of the event, watch it.
But yes he was handcuffed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:30:03 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 6:00:08 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:19:50 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:12:08 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:32:41 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:32:27 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:42:12 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> > https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/video/surveillance-video-shows-bicyclist-struck-by-driver-in-west-loop/
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Defunding the police has led to the preposterous end of enforcing traffic violations which could make up for the lost funds.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I doubt any sane and rational person is against the police enforcing the laws properly. What some people are against is the police using made up nonsense to stop all black drivers. And then arresting or shooting them dead. And sense there is no policing of the police, the only way to prevent police abuse is to defund the police. No one monitors the police. They have free will to do anything they please. No one can hold them accountable because they have immunity from everything. So to prevent police abuse, you eliminate the police. Not exactly the best way to achieve the result of police abuse. Because you end up with less law enforcement. But you take the good with the bad. Less police lawbreakers, good, and more overall lawbreakers, bad.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> Your arguments are illogical, at best. Sure "police brutality" exists.
>> >> >> but frequently it exists primarily in the mind of the oppressed. "But
>> >> >> he hit me with a stick!" "And what were you doing when he hit you?"
>> >> >> "Err... well I had my hand in his pocket. See... his wallet was stuck
>> >> >> somehow and I couldn't get it out".
>> >> >
>> >> >Apparently John you have not been keeping up with what is happening in the USA. A few stories I recall. Police woman goes home to her apartment, or so she thought, and shoots the man in the apartment. Because he actually lived in the apartment. Police serving a warrant in Kentucky(?) break into a house and shoot a woman in her bedroom. Wrong house they served the warrant on. Oops. 3-4-5 cops on top of the black guy up in Minnesota, and choke him to death and he dies of suffocation. If you have that many cops sitting on top of the guy's back, do you really need to suffocate, choke him? Some big city, Chicago(?), where the suspect is running away from the cops and they shoot him 15 times in the back. And this suspect was not someone they had witnessed murder someone in front of their eyes. He was just someone they were chasing for some reason. Not saying he was not guilty. But unless someone is a murderer, are the police justified in shooting someone 15 times in the back.
>> >> >
>> >> Yup, A few stories you recall.
>> >>
>> >> But there are, in the U.S. some 693,644 police in the U.S. (2020)
>> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/
>> >> and you post four or five examples of malfeasant.
>> >> What were the other 693,600 cops doing?
>> >>
>> >> As I said before, your argument seems to be based on the lurid stories
>> >> that you read in the News, and lets be honest here, "Cops Shoot Bloke
>> >> Running Away" gets on the front page while, Cops drive Sick Woman to
>> >> Hospital" doesn't even make it into the back pages.
>> >>
>> >> Then too it might be pointed out that in 2020 police made some
>> >> 7,632,473 arrests
>> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/
>> >> So, say 7-1/2 million cases and the cops screw up, what did you say? 6
>> >> or 7 times? Call it 10 times, that is (Wow!) 0.00000131019... 0.0001%
>> >> of the time?
>> >>
>> >> In comparison, I read that in 2020 traffic fatalities in the U.S. were
>> >> 11.67/100,000 population or 1.167%
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
>> >> Makes the cops look pretty good when compared to Mr. Average American
>> >> doesn't it
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >So the 1.167% traffic fatalities is a big deal according to you. Much more important than the number of people the cops kill. You estimated it at 10 people based on my remembrance of news articles. OK. 126.430 rapes in the USA in 2020. US Census population of 331,449,281 on April 1, 2020. 50.8% female. I am assuming all rapes are women. So 168,376,235 females in USA. That works out to 0.275% women/girls raped in the USA in 2020. Why the F-CK are we concerned at all about rape in the USA? It is only one fourth as much as the far more important traffic deaths. Using your police numbers, we had about 5.5 cops per female raped in the USA in 2020. Lets call that the cops/rape ratio.
>> >
>> >https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/
>> >https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221
>> Nope, I'm not judging anything. I'm simply pointing out that you are
>> condemning the police for wrong doing based on some sort of lured news
>> article that you read on the Internet rather then any actual knowledge
>> of the actual facts.
>>
>> Which is, well, sort of stupid, isn't it.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>I do not have any evidence of the opioid drug deaths occurring in the USA. Other than internet stories about how all the people in West Virginia are dying from overdoses. Therefore its all a LIE. No one dies of misuse of these drugs. I do not have any actual knowledge of the war in Ukraine. Other than through the internet and TV. So its all a LIE. The Russians obviously invaded to give the Ukrainians flowers and candy. I do not know of any woman being raped or sexually assaulted. So its all a LIE. No woman has ever been mistreated. So I am stupid for believing any of these lies ever occur. Every police officer in the USA should be conferred with sainthood. (Not that the USA government bestows religious canonization upon anyone.) The police is made up of a cross section of the population. I do not believe only one type of person becomes a police. Only good people. General society is made up of every sort. Good and bad. Police forces end up with the same cross
>section. Take priests or religious people as another example. You have some who house the homeless and feed the hungry. Others who go on Fox shows to call for the killing of all gays. Or others who molest boys. Or the one in Russia who praises Putin for bombing the maternity hospital in Ukraine. Priests, religious people, like cops, and every other occupation, is made up of a broad cross section of all of society. Good and bad.

As I keep saying, You are going on at some length about something that
you read in the "flamboyant" News. You don't know how many died in W.
Virginia and you don't know why the Russians invaded the Ukraine. But
still you rant and rave about it.

In short, "you don't know what you are talking about".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/19/2022 4:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired
>> about his having passed counterfeit currency. His
>> companions all quietly waited as instructed and did not
>> resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As he
>> overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at
>> initial conversation before any physical contact. Floyd
>> violently resisted arrest, even smashing his way out of a
>> police car twice after being handcuffed. Post mortem, he
>> still had several lethal doses worth of undigested dope in
>> his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire set of
>> body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction
>> are not at all so clear as some believe.
>
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/
>
>
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912
>
> Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.
>
>

Yes, that's true. I only noted that there are multiple
mitigating facts clouding a simple conclusion in this
convoluted incident.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/19/2022 5:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:32:40 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 11:22:47 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:41:12 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:13:20 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 4/18/2022 5:15 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>>>>> I'm in favor of enforcing traffic laws to get money, assuming the
>>>>> offenders have actually broken a traffic law.
>>>>
>>>> What I am talking about is the often reported instances of a police pulling over someone for expired tags on their plates. Something minor. Even if the driver is obeying the traffic laws. Now I agree a law is being broken because the tags are expired. Kids jaywalking in the middle of the block and not at the crosswalks is illegal too. Cops should ticket every kid in town. And when the cops stop the driver, they arrest, confiscate the contents of the car and sell it at auction and keep the money. And take the wallet from the driver and keep the money. And the above scenario is also reported to happen far more to black drivers than white drivers.
>>>>
>>>> I am all for enforcing the laws. Traffic and otherwise. But it can and does get out of hand and go beyond simply keeping people safe. I am not for that.
>>> Your argument is still illogical at best. Vehicle registration is, to
>>> some extent, a means of paying the government to organize things. Like
>>> taxes.As well as a method of identifying the vehicle.
>>>
>>> So if having up to date tags on your car is like paying taxes and
>>> never mind if you don't pay for up to date car registration try not
>>> paying you income tax. Or go to the cops and tell them your car was
>>> stolen and when they ask for the registration tell 'em you don't have
>>> any.
>>>
>>> You are like a lot of other people. "Speeding ? Don't worry about
>>> they, I always speed. The speed limits are foolish!" Then someone who
>>> is driving too fast runs over your kid at the school crosswalk and it
>>> is a whole different story.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> For some reason you missed the point I was making. Here in the USA we have this notion that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Cops require a reason to arrest someone. Cops require a search warrant to search homes. Not sure how vehicles work for searches. I think its called probable cause. The idea of cops needing a reason to arrest or search someone. They cannot just stop anyone and interrogate them. I suspect things work differently in Russia. Cops pulling over someone for expired tags or for jaywalking. Law breakers. And then using that to arrest, interrogate, search, confiscate, etc. That is the part where the cops get out of hand and carry it too far portion. Long ago, decades ago, when the speed limit was only 55 mph. You could more or less drive 60 without any worries of being pulled over for speeding. Even though technically you were speeding at 56 and above. But minor speeding was overlooked by the cops or highway patrol.
>
> And once again you are "running all around
> Robin Hood's barn" and missing the point. If your vehicle registration
> has expired you are in violation of the law and it is perfectly lawful
> for the police to stop you. In fact I suspect a police officer would
> be admonished for not stopping the vehicle.
>
> Note: A guilty finding in Massachusetts on a charge of operating an
> unregistered vehicle carries with it the penalties or a license
> suspension for 60 days, as well as significant insurance penalty and
> other potential costs. For a second offense charge, they will suspend
> your license for a year.
>

Well we have curious USA ethnic customs besides laws:

https://nypost.com/2022/04/15/michigan-cop-killed-patrick-lyoya-like-an-animal-family-says/

Most of us here know to speak politely, take the ticket, and
pursue the argument with the judge later.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/19/2022 6:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:16:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>> George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired about his having
>>> passed counterfeit currency. His companions all quietly waited as
>>> instructed and did not resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As
>>> he overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at initial
>>> conversation before any physical contact. Floyd violently resisted
>>> arrest, even smashing his way out of a police car twice after being
>>> handcuffed. Post mortem, he still had several lethal doses worth of
>>> undigested dope in his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire
>>> set of body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction are not
>>> at all so clear as some believe.
>>
>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/
>>
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912
>>
>> Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.
>
> Are you sure? and does your method guarantee restraint with no
> possibility of accidental death?
>
> In the George Floyd case mentioned above the police had arrested him,
> handcuffed him and put him in the back seat of the "Cruiser". Floyd
> then broke out of the car and attempted to run away.The police officer
> then - I'm guessing here - attempted to put a modified "choke hold" on
> Floyd, a hold that restricts blood flow to the brain and is, or was,
> taught in most, perhaps all, police and military training. And he
> died.
>
> What would you have done differently.
>

As many taser jolts as needed to get compliance.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/19/2022 6:35 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 6:12:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:16:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired about his having
>>>> passed counterfeit currency. His companions all quietly waited as
>>>> instructed and did not resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As
>>>> he overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at initial
>>>> conversation before any physical contact. Floyd violently resisted
>>>> arrest, even smashing his way out of a police car twice after being
>>>> handcuffed. Post mortem, he still had several lethal doses worth of
>>>> undigested dope in his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire
>>>> set of body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction are not
>>>> at all so clear as some believe.
>>>
>>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912
>>>
>>> Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.
>> Are you sure? and does your method guarantee restraint with no
>> possibility of accidental death?
>>
>> In the George Floyd case mentioned above the police had arrested him,
>> handcuffed him and put him in the back seat of the "Cruiser". Floyd
>> then broke out of the car and attempted to run away.The police officer
>> then - I'm guessing here - attempted to put a modified "choke hold" on
>> Floyd, a hold that restricts blood flow to the brain and is, or was,
>> taught in most, perhaps all, police and military training. And he
>> died.
>>
>> What would you have done differently.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> You are saying Floyd was handcuffed when the cops choked him to death? Why were they using a choke hold on him? If he was running away, escaping, while handcuffed, they could have just tripped him. Handcuffed people are not considered dangerous. What you are describing here is kind of like if a criminal is locked up in a jail cell in the police station. And the cop is worried, afraid, of the criminal. So he pulls out his gun and shoots the criminal inside the jail cell. Are you for that?
>

Watch the various bodycam videos. That will take some time
as they are long and there are four videos.

Mr Floyd smashed his way out of the police cruiser twice
while handcuffed. Two (assumingly not amidst an OD) strong
policemen had great difficulty getting Mr Floyd into the
cruiser both times.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/19/2022 6:53 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:38:00 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/19/2022 9:58 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 19.04.2022 um 16:01 schrieb AMuzi:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there are excesses:
>>>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>>>>
>>>> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
>>>> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are
>>>> extremely rare) being something around twenty per year out
>>>> of some 90 million police stops.
>>>
>>> I think the better base of comparison would be "police
>>> wrongful homicides of black citizens out of police homicides
>>> of black citizens".
>>>
>>> How does this compare to "police wrongful homicides of
>>> citizens out of police homicides of citizens"?
>>>
>>> Rolf
>>
>> Without engaging skin color, can we agree that shooting at
>> police and then taking a fatal second place at the two-way
>> range is a different thing altogether?
>
> I think that the point that is missed by most observers of "police
> brutality" is that the observer is not commonly placed in a situation
> where he might be killed by who ever they are dealing with. I have
> been and I can assure you that your immediate reaction is to do
> whatever you can to avoid it.
>
> As the saying has it, "it concentrates the mind wonderfully well" :-)
>
+1

As with calmly plinking targets as opposed to returning fire
from an awkward position, at night, against an obscured
source, spontaneously, at a two-way range, hopped up on
adrenaline. Life and television are utterly different.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/19/2022 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 09:01:07 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/18/2022 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:13:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/18/2022 5:15 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As for writing traffic tickets to get money, many many many police forces do this a lot. Its a big complaint against police. I am for enforcing the traffic laws. But if/when the police go the extra mile and use it as a means of enhancing their revenue and taking people's cars and property just because they can, then I am against this.
>>>>
>>>> I'm in favor of enforcing traffic laws to get money, assuming the
>>>> offenders have actually broken a traffic law.
>>>>
>>>> As I see it, a certain amount of money is required to maintain
>>>> civilization. It has to come from somebody. Why should law breakers not
>>>> be asked to pay a bit extra? They are perfectly legitimate targets.
>>>>
>>>> If they don't like it, their choice should be obvious. Just obey the laws.
>>>
>>> Somewhere, maybe Georgia, I was told that police officers were paid,
>>> awarded?, a portion of any fines paid by those who they arrested. And
>>> why not, it would certainly influence police to be more interested in
>>> their job.
>>>
>>> But to be honest, the average citizen doesn't have a clue what the
>>> Police are doing. they get their knowledge, usually, from lurid news
>>> articles. After all the fact that the Police stopped and fined some 75
>>> people speeding in school zones and as a result now no one speeds past
>>> the grade school, doesn't make exciting reading while a police
>>> shooting? Wow!
>>>
>>
>> Yes, there are excesses:
>> https://themillenniumreport.com/2019/02/legalized-theft-civil-asset-forfeiture-out-of-control-in-america/
>>
>> But police wrongful homicides of black citizens are a
>> minuscule outlier (still wrong, just note they are extremely
>> rare) being something around twenty per year out of some 90
>> million police stops.
>
> I believe that forfeiture of goods and assets used in, or abetting,
> the committing of a crime is a matter of both federal and state laws.
> Is it not?
>

The Civil Forfeiture provision allows enforcement agencies
to confiscate without a warrant, a judge's order or a court
finding. As one might well imagine, it's subject to
astounding levels of abuse.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:33 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/19/2022 6:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:16:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/19/2022 10:21 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> George Floyd ate a bag of fentanyl when police inquired about his having
>>>> passed counterfeit currency. His companions all quietly waited as
>>>> instructed and did not resist police inquiry. They are alive today. As
>>>> he overdosed, he begins the 'I can't breathe' routine at initial
>>>> conversation before any physical contact. Floyd violently resisted
>>>> arrest, even smashing his way out of a police car twice after being
>>>> handcuffed. Post mortem, he still had several lethal doses worth of
>>>> undigested dope in his stomach. Take forty minutes to view the entire
>>>> set of body cam footage. His death and the officer's conviction are not
>>>> at all so clear as some believe.
>>>
>>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/21/fact-check-george-floyd-autopsy-ruled-his-death-homicide/7317557002/
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56670912
>>>
>>> Competent cops can restrain a man without killing him.
>>
>> Are you sure? and does your method guarantee restraint with no
>> possibility of accidental death?
>>
>> In the George Floyd case mentioned above the police had arrested him,
>> handcuffed him and put him in the back seat of the "Cruiser". Floyd
>> then broke out of the car and attempted to run away.The police officer
>> then - I'm guessing here - attempted to put a modified "choke hold" on
>> Floyd, a hold that restricts blood flow to the brain and is, or was,
>> taught in most, perhaps all, police and military training. And he
>> died.
>>
>> What would you have done differently.
>>
>
>As many taser jolts as needed to get compliance.

Nope, wrong :-)

"according to a 2012 research published in the American Heart
Association journal Circulation. In the United States in 2018, at
least 49 individuals died after being shocked with a Taser by police.
https://staminacomfort.com/can-a-police-taser-kill-you
--
Cheers,

John B.