On 5/17/2022 10:00 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
>>
>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B.
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked
>>>>> in the Post
>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and
>>>>> I, to collage.
>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a
>>>>> check every month
>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the
>>>>> government
>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in
>>>>> repaying them.
>>>>
>>>> And why is this?
>>>
>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>
>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
>>> significantly more money during their lifetime
>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage
>>> gap between
>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>
>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still
>>> ongoing
>>>
>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
>>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or
>>> jobs) for their
>>> cost of living.
>>
>> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by
>> commercial
>> banks to students for tuition and other expenses. These
>> debts cannot be
>> discharged in bankruptcy. US universities expect to get a
>> full
>> statement of family finances before making any offers of
>> financial
>> assistance. In other words they know exactly how much
>> money you have
>> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a
>> differential pricing
>> wet dream.
>
> And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly
> at universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of
> exercise machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of
> on-campus restaurants besides the dozen independent ones
> surrounding campus, the landscaping was far less elaborate
> with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today colleges are
> competing heavily for students, and the administration's and
> trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase
> enrollment. (State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
>
> More important, back then the size of the administration was
> tiny compared to today's. I believe administration expenses
> have soared faster than any other aspect of the university
> budget. When I began teaching at the local university 40-odd
> years ago, the Provost's Office was one man plus one
> secretary. Now it's an entire complex with something like
> ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and the
> university president's wife is now supplied with a personal
> shopper. :-/
>

+1

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >
>> > 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
>> >
>> > Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
>> > more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
>> > continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
>> > where freedom and incentive are lacking.
>> >
>> > A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
>> > especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
>> >
>> > That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
>> > declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
>> > regulation and so less hope year over year.

>> Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
>> are the differences with ours?

>It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
>Lou

That sounds like an anarchist economy. I vote for Somalia as an
example of a laissez faire economic system:

"Somalia: Counting the cost of anarchy"
<https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-12285365>

"Anarcho-capitalism"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism>

Some (historical) examples:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Historical_precedents>
Bring back the wild west (USA)?

Some links to variations on the anarchist theme:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#See_also>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 1:32:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>
> >
> > Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> > Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> > No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> > for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> > collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> > --
> > Cheers,
> And why is this?

Teachers continually demand increasing wages and the college owners continually want increasing profits. How can you argue with that except for students to no longer select that school to attend? Suddenly teachers are willing to accept less and owners will make less profit margin. This is the way that the Free Enterprise system is supposed to work. But it cannot work properly if everyone believes that the college bills are going to be paid off by me.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> >> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> >> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> >> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> >> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> >
> > And why is this?
>
> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>
> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
> more money during their lifetime
> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> college graduates and non-graduates
>
> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>
> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.

These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.

Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.

I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems

On 5/17/2022 2:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 1:32:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>> And why is this?
>
> Teachers continually demand increasing wages and the college owners continually want increasing profits. How can you argue with that except for students to no longer select that school to attend? Suddenly teachers are willing to accept less and owners will make less profit margin. This is the way that the Free Enterprise system is supposed to work. But it cannot work properly if everyone believes that the college bills are going to be paid off by me.
>

You can carp about academic staff salaries/benefits. And
people do.
But the massive expense increases are in the
administrative/construction/facilities budgets.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/17/2022 1:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
>>>>
>>>> Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
>>>> more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
>>>> continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
>>>> where freedom and incentive are lacking.
>>>>
>>>> A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
>>>> especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
>>>>
>>>> That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
>>>> declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
>>>> regulation and so less hope year over year.
>
>>> Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
>>> are the differences with ours?
>
>> It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
>> Lou
>
> That sounds like an anarchist economy. I vote for Somalia as an
> example of a laissez faire economic system:
>
> "Somalia: Counting the cost of anarchy"
> <https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-12285365>
>
> "Anarcho-capitalism"
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism>
>
> Some (historical) examples:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Historical_precedents>
> Bring back the wild west (USA)?
>
> Some links to variations on the anarchist theme:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#See_also>

"Rothbard's anarcho-capitalist society would operate under a mutually
agreed-upon 'legal code which would be generally accepted, and which the
courts would pledge themselves to follow' "

Sounds lovely. We should be able to set that up by next week, worldwide.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/17/2022 4:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 2:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 1:32:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>> And why is this?
>>
>> Teachers continually demand increasing wages and the college owners
>> continually want increasing profits. How can you argue with that
>> except for students to no longer select that school to attend?
>> Suddenly teachers are willing to accept less and owners will make less
>> profit margin. This is the way that the Free Enterprise system is
>> supposed to work. But it cannot work properly if everyone believes
>> that the college bills are going to be paid off by me.
>>
>
> You can carp about academic staff salaries/benefits. And people do.
> But the massive expense increases are in the
> administrative/construction/facilities budgets.

Exactly. And colleges and universities are ever more reliant on
exploitation of part-time or adjunct faculty. Those people are paid
pitifully low wages and typically have no contract rights, no benefits.
I know, because part of my job was finding and hiring qualified
engineers (_real_ engineers; Tom wouldn't qualify) to teach courses.

I was lucky to have a few truly brilliant guys who did that for the
pleasure of passing on their knowledge and experience, out of love for
our program. Still, I felt ashamed of the pittance I could offer them.

BTW, when I was totally done teaching, contract completely up, I was
asked to continue as a part-timer. I politely refused. I said it would
be hypocritical for me to work for that pittance, after so many years of
lobbying for better part-timer wages.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/17/2022 3:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>
>>> And why is this?
>>
>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>
>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
>> more money during their lifetime
>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>
>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>
>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
>> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
>
> These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
>
> Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.
>
> I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems

How odd. Tom told us he had a GED instead of a high school diploma, and
bragged about walking away from that two year college because he knew
more than the teachers. How stories change!

There are some craftsmen like finish carpenters, welders, etc. who do
very well, most often by working all the overtime they can possibly fit
in their lives. But data, in contrast with anecdotes, indicate that on
average, college degrees do pay off monetarily (not to mention in other
ways).
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2011/05/15/chapter-5-the-monetary-value-of-a-college-education/

Of course, if you're interested in a good financial return, it pays to
carefully choose both the college and the major. Worst case is probably
something like an Art History or Peace Studies degree from a major Ivy
League school - expensive, and little market for whatever specialized
skills one learns. Best choice is probably an engineering degree from a
good state school.
https://bigeconomics.org/the-college-majors-that-pay-off-and-those-that-dont/

I haven't been able to find any decent data on high school dropouts who
are smarter than everyone else in the world. Odd, that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>>
>> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to nationalize US private industries being announced daily <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any attempts to take over a private business, right?
>>
>>
>
>The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>that's not secret. Nor news.
>
>Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>and less prosperity is not getting better:
>
>https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/

Yup,
In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
work on these proposed lease sales."
and
The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
as the reason for scrapping the sales.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >
> > > 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
> > >
> > > Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
> > > more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
> > > continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
> > > where freedom and incentive are lacking.
> > >
> > > A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
> > > especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
> > >
> > > That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
> > > declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
> > > regulation and so less hope year over year.
> > Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
> > are the differences with ours?
> >
> It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
>
> Lou

Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no "himself" to it.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:01:16 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 1:32:10 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> > > Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> > > No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> > > for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> > > collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them..
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > And why is this?
> Teachers continually demand increasing wages and the college owners continually want increasing profits. How can you argue with that except for students to no longer select that school to attend? Suddenly teachers are willing to accept less and owners will make less profit margin. This is the way that the Free Enterprise system is supposed to work. But it cannot work properly if everyone believes that the college bills are going to be paid off by me.

Tommy, you must be confusing Trump University with a real college or university. Publicly sponsored schools are not free enterprise institutions. They are not profit and loss entities. They are very socialistic. Just like free public education for kids is too. They are established for the greater achievement, benefit of all society. People without children are still required to pay taxes to support elementary schools in their town. The higher ups, society, have decided that is acceptable because everyone overall will be better with educated people. All of society will benefit if this cost is paid. Even taking money from those who do not receive a direct benefit.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:16:02 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> > >> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> > >> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> > >> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> > >> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> > >
> > > And why is this?
> >
> > A typical "delay feedback loop":
> >
> > 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
> > more money during their lifetime
> > 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> > 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> > 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> > college graduates and non-graduates
> >
> > Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
> >
> > In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
> > students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living..
> These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
>
> Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.
>
> I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college.

???????
So now Tommy has a high school diploma and a community college degree?

Regarding me owning a home. I am very adept at carpentry, plumbing, and electrical work. I have renovated a few houses over the decades. So I usually do not pay people to do my work. I have hired plumbers for a couple special jobs over the years. Costs were reasonable.

> Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
> >>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
> >>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
> >>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
> >>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
> >>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
> >>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
> >>
> >> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to nationalize US private industries being announced daily <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any attempts to take over a private business, right?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The large political parties both have deep corruption and
> >that's not secret. Nor news.
> >
> >Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
> >and less prosperity is not getting better:
> >
> >https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
> Yup,
> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
> work on these proposed lease sales."
> and
> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land, that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common. But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets, so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable. No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/

On Tue, 17 May 2022 12:16:00 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>> >> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>> >> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>> >> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>> >> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>> >
>> > And why is this?
>>
>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>
>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
>> more money during their lifetime
>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>
>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>
>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
>> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
>
>These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
>
>Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.
>
>I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems

How things change... it was barely a year ago and Tommy was bragging
about all the money he made as a bloke without a high school diploma.
And now, Low and Behold! he suddenly has both a diploma AND two years
of collage.
It is written that the Israelites marched around the city of Jericho
blowing horns and the walls fell down, and here we have Tommy "blowing
his horn" on the Internet and he now has not only a high school
diploma but a collage degree too.

The age of miracles is not over.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:00:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
>>
>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>>
>>>> And why is this?
>>>
>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>
>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
>>> significantly more money during their lifetime
>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>
>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>>
>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
>>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their
>>> cost of living.
>>
>> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by commercial
>> banks to students for tuition and other expenses. These debts cannot be
>> discharged in bankruptcy. US universities expect to get a full
>> statement of family finances before making any offers of financial
>> assistance. In other words they know exactly how much money you have
>> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a differential pricing
>> wet dream.
>
>And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly at
>universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of exercise
>machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of on-campus restaurants
>besides the dozen independent ones surrounding campus, the landscaping
>was far less elaborate with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today
>colleges are competing heavily for students, and the administration's
>and trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase enrollment.
>(State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
>
>More important, back then the size of the administration was tiny
>compared to today's. I believe administration expenses have soared
>faster than any other aspect of the university budget. When I began
>teaching at the local university 40-odd years ago, the Provost's Office
>was one man plus one secretary. Now it's an entire complex with
>something like ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and the
>university president's wife is now supplied with a personal shopper. :-/

There was a sort of myth or fable about Airman Jones and the firing
range.

The troops go to the range and are shooting and Jones runs out of
ammunition, so he tells the Sergeant and the Sergeant tells him to
"run, get some more". So Jones hustles off and when he gets back his
buddy calls out, "I'm out of ammunition" and since Jones is already up
the Sergeant tells Jones to make another trip. But Jones complains
that the ammunition is heavy and he can't carry more, so the Sergeant
says, "take your buddy to help". And so on. And on.

Ultimately it is one man firing and the rest of the troops carrying
ammo (:-)

The story is, of course, how a simple operation grows into a monster
project.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:14:56 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:00:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/17/2022 10:35 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> writes:
> >>
> >>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> >>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> >>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage..
> >>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> >>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> >>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> >>>>
> >>>> And why is this?
> >>>
> >>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
> >>>
> >>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn
> >>> significantly more money during their lifetime
> >>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> >>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> >>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> >>> college graduates and non-graduates
> >>>
> >>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
> >>>
> >>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the
> >>> govermnent, students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their
> >>> cost of living.
> >>
> >> In the USA the federal government guarantees loans made by commercial
> >> banks to students for tuition and other expenses. These debts cannot be
> >> discharged in bankruptcy. US universities expect to get a full
> >> statement of family finances before making any offers of financial
> >> assistance. In other words they know exactly how much money you have
> >> when they decide how much to charge you -- it's a differential pricing
> >> wet dream.
> >
> >And as I've mentioned before, things have changed markedly at
> >universities. When I attended, there were not hundreds of exercise
> >machines, multiple sports fields, a bunch of on-campus restaurants
> >besides the dozen independent ones surrounding campus, the landscaping
> >was far less elaborate with no fountains or sculptures, etc. But today
> >colleges are competing heavily for students, and the administration's
> >and trustees' thoughts are that these amenities increase enrollment.
> >(State subsidy is based heavily on enrollment.)
> >
> >More important, back then the size of the administration was tiny
> >compared to today's. I believe administration expenses have soared
> >faster than any other aspect of the university budget. When I began
> >teaching at the local university 40-odd years ago, the Provost's Office
> >was one man plus one secretary. Now it's an entire complex with
> >something like ten people plus part-time student assistants. Oh, and the
> >university president's wife is now supplied with a personal shopper. :-/
> There was a sort of myth or fable about Airman Jones and the firing
> range.
>
> The troops go to the range and are shooting and Jones runs out of
> ammunition, so he tells the Sergeant and the Sergeant tells him to
> "run, get some more". So Jones hustles off and when he gets back his
> buddy calls out, "I'm out of ammunition" and since Jones is already up
> the Sergeant tells Jones to make another trip. But Jones complains
> that the ammunition is heavy and he can't carry more, so the Sergeant
> says, "take your buddy to help". And so on. And on.
>
> Ultimately it is one man firing and the rest of the troops carrying
> ammo (:-)
>
> The story is, of course, how a simple operation grows into a monster
> project.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

The Browning M1919 machine gun had a crew of 5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun
"As a company support weapon, the M1919 required a five-man crew: the squad leader; the gunner (who fired the gun and when advancing carried the tripod and box of ammunition); the assistant gunner (who helped feed the gun and carried it, and a box of spare parts and tools); two ammunition carriers."

On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:50:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/17/2022 6:10 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 02:25:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:56 AM UTC+2, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>>>>>
>>>>> And why is this?
>>>>
>>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>>>>
>>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
>>>> more money during their lifetime
>>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>>>>
>>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>>>>
>>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
>>>> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
>>>
>>>
>>> My question was about why a family with one full time paid job can't support a family anymore.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> I suggest it is the level of luxury that one sees as normal. People
>> used to walk, for example. From the age of 6 I walked about a mile to
>> school, and yes, there was a school bus... for those that lived more
>> then a mile from the school.
>>
>> Today? Walk? A whole mile? "You've got to be kidding".
>>
>> The average US family has 2.5 TV's and about a third have more then 4
>> https://www.sidmartinbio.org/how-many-tvs-does-the-average-house-have/
>>
>> Cars? The average seems to be 1.8 per family and 35 percent of
>> American households own three cars or more.
>>
>> and so on and on and on.
>
>I agree with John on this. Our family's standard of living is quite a
>bit different than, say, our immediate neighbors'. ("What? You don't
>have a dishwasher? A 48" TV? A zero turn lawn mower? You don't do a
>Caribbean cruise every year? You don't carry a huge credit card balance?")
>
>But our lifestyle is much more luxurious than that of my parents, and
>incredibly more luxurious than my grandparents'.

But what is "luxury"?

From memory, my family, Mother, Father, two boys" did things together
certainly until I left for collage. Well, yes, my parents did leave me
and my brother with my grandparents once, for a week, when they
attended the World's Fair in New York - an unmovable long trip - but
basically that was it.

Yes, my mother washed dishes, did laundry, and the shopping, but my
father worked 7 days a week.

My memory, for whatever that is worth, was that I was the member of a
family and I was quite contented.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:57:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 09:15:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/17/2022 5:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:16:20 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>
>> >>> One might parse these things in various ways but you omitted
>> >>> the classic case(s) of the Futurists. They became the
>> >>> Fascists. By directing and regulating industry & commerce,
>> >>> they avoided many of the crippling inefficiencies of the
>> >>> more ardent communists who suffered State 'management'.
>> >>> We're moving our economy and culture much more toward
>> >>> Mussolini, Hitler and Peron than toward Stalin, Kim and Castro.
>> >>
>> >> yup, I see the big plans from the evil communist greenies to nationalize US private industries being announced daily <eyeroll>. Oh and I'm sure the conservatives _never_ made any attempts to take over a private business, right?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >The large political parties both have deep corruption and
>> >that's not secret. Nor news.
>> >
>> >Trend to a diminished regulated economy with less freedom
>> >and less prosperity is not getting better:
>> >
>> >https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/may/12/joe-biden-cancels-massive-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-d/
>> Yup,
>> In a statement shared first with CBS News, the Department of the
>> Interior cited a "lack of industry interest in leasing in the area"
>> for the decision to "not move forward" with the Cook Inlet lease sale.
>> The department also halted two leases under consideration for the Gulf
>> of Mexico region because of "conflicting court rulings that impacted
>> work on these proposed lease sales."
>> and
>> The Interior Department's Bureau of Ocean Energy Management has
>> previously canceled lease sales in Cook Inlet three times — in 2007,
>> 2008, and 2011 — also citing "lack of industry interest" at the time
>> as the reason for scrapping the sales.
>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-alaska-oil-gas-lease-sale-canceled/
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Yes. I have also seen many stories of leases for oil and gas land, that are not being used. The government sold them, but the buyers are not developing or trying to get the oil or gas. Very common. But we live in a reasonably free society with somewhat free markets, so the reasons for these unused oil and gas leases is reasonable. No one is trying to rob, steal, cheat anyone else.
>
>https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/biden-9000-unused-oil-drill-permits/

I don't remember the cost of drilling a production "shale oil" well
but it is high, somewhere in the $50/bbl range, I'd guess, while a
straight down and start pumping well in Saudi might be less then
$10/bbl.

I remember in Indonesia, leases usually contained a requirement to
drill, usually three, exploration wells and one company we worked for
had drilled the required exploration wells and hit oil but were
abandoning the project. When I asked them why? They said, "well, it's
heavy oil and not worth producing now but when the price goes up it
will still be there".
--
Cheers,

John B.

Op woensdag 18 mei 2022 om 02:02:10 UTC+2 schreef russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
> > > >
> > > > Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
> > > > more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
> > > > continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
> > > > where freedom and incentive are lacking.
> > > >
> > > > A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
> > > > especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
> > > >
> > > > That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
> > > > declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
> > > > regulation and so less hope year over year.
> > > Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
> > > are the differences with ours?
> > >
> > It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
> >
> > Lou
> Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no "himself" to it.
I was answering Franks question what economy/government Mr. Muzi would prefer.
I was guessing based on Andrewks posts here that everything the government does is inefficient and corrupt and we have to leave most things to the privat sector exept the military. That is not my idea.

Lou

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:47:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:50:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 5/17/2022 6:10 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 02:25:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:56 AM UTC+2, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> >>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> >>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> >>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> >>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And why is this?
> >>>>
> >>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
> >>>> more money during their lifetime
> >>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> >>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> >>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> >>>> college graduates and non-graduates
> >>>>
> >>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
> >>>>
> >>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
> >>>> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My question was about why a family with one full time paid job can't support a family anymore.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>
> >> I suggest it is the level of luxury that one sees as normal. People
> >> used to walk, for example. From the age of 6 I walked about a mile to
> >> school, and yes, there was a school bus... for those that lived more
> >> then a mile from the school.
> >>
> >> Today? Walk? A whole mile? "You've got to be kidding".
> >>
> >> The average US family has 2.5 TV's and about a third have more then 4
> >> https://www.sidmartinbio.org/how-many-tvs-does-the-average-house-have/
> >>
> >> Cars? The average seems to be 1.8 per family and 35 percent of
> >> American households own three cars or more.
> >>
> >> and so on and on and on.
> >
> >I agree with John on this. Our family's standard of living is quite a
> >bit different than, say, our immediate neighbors'. ("What? You don't
> >have a dishwasher? A 48" TV? A zero turn lawn mower? You don't do a
> >Caribbean cruise every year? You don't carry a huge credit card balance?")
> >
> >But our lifestyle is much more luxurious than that of my parents, and
> >incredibly more luxurious than my grandparents'.
> But what is "luxury"?
>
> From memory, my family, Mother, Father, two boys" did things together
> certainly until I left for collage. Well, yes, my parents did leave me
> and my brother with my grandparents once, for a week, when they
> attended the World's Fair in New York - an unmovable long trip - but
> basically that was it.
>
> Yes, my mother washed dishes, did laundry, and the shopping, but my
> father worked 7 days a week.
>
> My memory, for whatever that is worth, was that I was the member of a
> family and I was quite contented.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

But John you live in Thailand now. And traveled all over southeast Asia working or military. Is that more luxurious than your parents or grandparents? Traveling the world? Living in a foreign land? And you have mentioned on this forum that your wife has a maid/servant lady come in a few times a week or something. Did your parents or grandparents have a maid? Is that luxury? Now I realize for middle income Thai people, that may be just common practice and everyone does it. But for the USA that would be considered luxury. A maid!!!!!!!

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 12:32:48 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op woensdag 18 mei 2022 om 02:02:10 UTC+2 schreef russell...@yahoo.com:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
> > > > >
> > > > > Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
> > > > > more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
> > > > > continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
> > > > > where freedom and incentive are lacking.
> > > > >
> > > > > A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
> > > > > especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
> > > > >
> > > > > That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
> > > > > declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
> > > > > regulation and so less hope year over year.
> > > > Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
> > > > are the differences with ours?
> > > >
> > > It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no "himself" to it.
> I was answering Franks question what economy/government Mr. Muzi would prefer.
> I was guessing based on Andrewks posts here that everything the government does is inefficient and corrupt and we have to leave most things to the privat sector exept the military. That is not my idea.
>
> Lou

OK. I misread your post. You were answering Frank's question of Andy with what he might/would say. Not answering for yourself and the Netherlands. For Andy my response would be something like this. You are in Madison Wisconsin. Your bike shop. Madison is a metropolis because the government funded, provided, University of Wisconsin is there. Otherwise, Madison would be a nothing town. So your bike shop owes all of its existence to government provided services. Something like that. Although I may be off a bit with my analogy. Everyone is interconnected whether we want to be or not.

On Tue, 17 May 2022 23:39:04 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 8:47:45 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 10:50:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/17/2022 6:10 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 17 May 2022 02:25:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 11:12:56 AM UTC+2, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> >>>> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
>> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
>> >>>>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
>> >>>>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
>> >>>>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
>> >>>>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And why is this?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A typical "delay feedback loop":
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
>> >>>> more money during their lifetime
>> >>>> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
>> >>>> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
>> >>>> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
>> >>>> college graduates and non-graduates
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
>> >>>> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> My question was about why a family with one full time paid job can't support a family anymore.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lou
>> >>
>> >> I suggest it is the level of luxury that one sees as normal. People
>> >> used to walk, for example. From the age of 6 I walked about a mile to
>> >> school, and yes, there was a school bus... for those that lived more
>> >> then a mile from the school.
>> >>
>> >> Today? Walk? A whole mile? "You've got to be kidding".
>> >>
>> >> The average US family has 2.5 TV's and about a third have more then 4
>> >> https://www.sidmartinbio.org/how-many-tvs-does-the-average-house-have/
>> >>
>> >> Cars? The average seems to be 1.8 per family and 35 percent of
>> >> American households own three cars or more.
>> >>
>> >> and so on and on and on.
>> >
>> >I agree with John on this. Our family's standard of living is quite a
>> >bit different than, say, our immediate neighbors'. ("What? You don't
>> >have a dishwasher? A 48" TV? A zero turn lawn mower? You don't do a
>> >Caribbean cruise every year? You don't carry a huge credit card balance?")
>> >
>> >But our lifestyle is much more luxurious than that of my parents, and
>> >incredibly more luxurious than my grandparents'.
>> But what is "luxury"?
>>
>> From memory, my family, Mother, Father, two boys" did things together
>> certainly until I left for collage. Well, yes, my parents did leave me
>> and my brother with my grandparents once, for a week, when they
>> attended the World's Fair in New York - an unmovable long trip - but
>> basically that was it.
>>
>> Yes, my mother washed dishes, did laundry, and the shopping, but my
>> father worked 7 days a week.
>>
>> My memory, for whatever that is worth, was that I was the member of a
>> family and I was quite contented.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>But John you live in Thailand now. And traveled all over southeast Asia working or military. Is that more luxurious than your parents or grandparents? Traveling the world? Living in a foreign land? And you have mentioned on this forum that your wife has a maid/servant lady come in a few times a week or something. Did your parents or grandparents have a maid? Is that luxury? Now I realize for middle income Thai people, that may be just common practice and everyone does it. But for the USA that would be considered luxury. A maid!!!!!!!

My question, above, was "what is luxury?"

Is it that you don't have to walk all the way down the street to the
7-Eleven? My Goodness, that must be, Oh... 200 yards?

Or, Yes sir, we got a 48 incher in the bedroom (but only 24" in the
toilet.)

Or, "Well the wife and I've been married for 20 years now, the kids
are doing well in school, the house is paid for, we paid cash for the
car and..."
As for the maid (:-) Well, my wife is 77 years old, so yes, I agreed
that she could have a helper... who comes in half a day several times
a week and does the"heavy lifting", while my wife still does the
cooking. I'm probably spoiling the Old Girl and in mitigation I can
only say that, "It's only been for the last two years".

And, Oh Yes, the Grand Kids are doing well in school (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:43:47 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/17/2022 3:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >> Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> >>>> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> >>>> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> >>>> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> >>>> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> >>>
> >>> And why is this?
> >>
> >> A typical "delay feedback loop":
> >>
> >> 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
> >> more money during their lifetime
> >> 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> >> 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> >> 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> >> college graduates and non-graduates
> >>
> >> Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
> >>
> >> In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
> >> students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living.
> >
> > These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
> >
> > Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.
> >
> > I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems
> How odd. Tom told us he had a GED instead of a high school diploma, and
> bragged about walking away from that two year college because he knew
> more than the teachers. How stories change!

Right, I could have sworn that a while back he said he got a 4-year liberal arts degree at some bay area college (don't recall if it was a community college or a small private school) by going nights while working full time, paid for by the company he worked for at the time - though he resume show he was was only employed by them for 4 years.

Of course that would mean he went to school full time while working full time. I guess that's doable, but tommy?

>
> There are some craftsmen like finish carpenters, welders, etc. who do
> very well, most often by working all the overtime they can possibly fit
> in their lives. But data, in contrast with anecdotes, indicate that on
> average, college degrees do pay off monetarily (not to mention in other
> ways).
> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2011/05/15/chapter-5-the-monetary-value-of-a-college-education/
>
> Of course, if you're interested in a good financial return, it pays to
> carefully choose both the college and the major. Worst case is probably
> something like an Art History or Peace Studies degree from a major Ivy
> League school - expensive, and little market for whatever specialized
> skills one learns. Best choice is probably an engineering degree from a
> good state school.
> https://bigeconomics.org/the-college-majors-that-pay-off-and-those-that-dont/
>
> I haven't been able to find any decent data on high school dropouts who
> are smarter than everyone else in the world. Odd, that.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 3:16:02 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 2:12:56 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 17.05.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:59:33 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Example... when I was a young man my father, who worked in the Post
> > >> Office, could afford to send his kids, my brother and I, to collage.
> > >> No loans, no borrowing money from relatives, just a check every month
> > >> for the tuition and so on. Today I read about all the government
> > >> collage loans and the difficulties young people have in repaying them.
> > >
> > > And why is this?
> >
> > A typical "delay feedback loop":
> >
> > 1) Studies find out that people with a college degree earn significantly
> > more money during their lifetime
> > 2) More people are willing to pay to go to college
> > 3) colleges increase their tuition fees massively
> > 4)more college graduates one the market reduce the wage gap between
> > college graduates and non-graduates
> >
> > Step 3 mostly happend during the 1990's, step 4 is still ongoing
> >
> > In Germany, standard University education is paid for by the govermnent,
> > students only have to take out loans (or jobs) for their cost of living..
> These studies are outdated. I without a doubt would have made a great deal more money and better retirement benefits had I remained working as a technician for the Bay Area Rapid Transit district or as a Telephone Installation Technician as partner in a firm.
>
> Carpenters, Plumbers and concrete workers if they work for solid companies that can keep them working and making reasonable overtime will ALL earn higher wages than MOST college educations. Russell probably has first hand knowledge of this if he owns a home and has to have normal maintenance work completed. I had crown molding installed in ONE room by a carpenter who completed the world in under 4 hours for $2,200. He did a good job and I can't complain. I had to have my sewer pipe replaced out into the street and it took a good reliable company 4 hours and that was $8,500. These were well before the Biden inflation.

"I got bored with the slime on RBT burnishing their self-esteem through reacting to tech input according to the poster’s political beliefs." - andre jute

>
> I made up to a quarter million a year with a high school diploma and a two year city college. Neither of these helped my job. But I was also known as a problem solver and as managers moved around they knew they could call on me to fix their problems

It would take a lot more than an associates degree to help your career when you're an asshole to everyone you meet. It's a bit late since you're already retired, but just consider that constructive criticism.

On 5/18/2022 12:32 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op woensdag 18 mei 2022 om 02:02:10 UTC+2 schreef russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:03:01 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 5/17/2022 10:11 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 'capitalism' is a pejorative term invented by Karl Marx.
>>>>>
>>>>> Among his many errors, Marx' fixation on capital ignored the other
>>>>> more significant input which is human ingenuity and incentive for
>>>>> continued improvement in all ventures. The best examples are the poverty
>>>>> where freedom and incentive are lacking.
>>>>>
>>>>> A more descriptive term is 'free market' where liberty, property rights,
>>>>> especially intellectual property, and risk/reward are unfettered.
>>>>>
>>>>> That does _not_ describe my country at all. We're now some socialist
>>>>> declining mess, a 'directed economy' as the Planners claim, with more
>>>>> regulation and so less hope year over year.
>>>> Are there countries whose economic system you like? What are they? What
>>>> are the differences with ours?
>>>>
>>> It would be the 'leave me alone' economy I think. Everyone should take care of himself.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> Lou, you live in the Netherlands? That country with billions of dollars of dikes and other water management systems. To prevent half or more of the country from being a swamp, lake, flooded, below sea level. Who did all of these projects? Individuals? Each landowner by himself? I doubt it. I believe the Government did everything. Yes the people paid for it eventually over time. But the government did the projects collectively for everyone to benefit. Socialism at its finest. Help your neighbor, everyone, to benefit all. No "alone", no "himself" to it.
> I was answering Franks question what economy/government Mr. Muzi would prefer.
> I was guessing based on Andrewks posts here that everything the government does is inefficient and corrupt and we have to leave most things to the privat sector exept the military. That is not my idea.
>
> Lou
>

I'm not completely rigid but my usual question, 'name
something the government does efficiently and well' gets
that thousand-mile stare...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971